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Showing content with the highest reputation since 09/13/2021 in Posts

  1. 3 points
    This. This is being over simplified and being presented in a binary argument and that's what bothers me about this debate. I don't think it as simple as saying this way or that way is the right way because it ignores way too many factors. Boston is a good example to hold up of a team built for long term success without a high pick, but that ignores that fact they got a likely Hall of fame center in the 2nd round. How often does that happen (spoiler alert.... it doesn't). It's easy to say "well then draft better" but that ignores that it's not like these opportunities are available in every draft. You don't get players the level of of Bergeron or Kucherov outside the top 10 as frequently anymore. New York Islanders, as already pointed out used a #4 pick to gain Barzal but also got Barzal because he had an injury his draft year. How often does a top 5 talent drop due to injuries (it happens but not every draft). They've also got a perfect match of GM, coach and roster that isn't always easy to do. People will say "sure it is" but what's interesting in including the Islanders in this category is several years ago (before Trotz) the Islanders would have been a case to hold up to say tanking doesn't work. They bottomed out and weren't any good. Yes you have teams like the Oilers, Leafs and Sabres who did it and it hasn't worked out yet but that's because, as Peeps points out here, it's only one step. I happen to believe the Leafs core is good enough to win but what they haven't gotten right yet is the mix around that core. You have to do both, which is what worked so well for LA, Chicago, Tampa and Pittsburgh. A high end core through the top of the draft, but also a good supporting cast too. for me it comes down to less of a this pathway or that pathway and more a consideration of where is your club, what are the current strengths/weaknesses of your club, and what are the up coming drafts like. I think you need to weight all of those when deciding whether or not this course make sense because even though a team may not be a cup contender or may not have a top 2 pick doesn't mean they have to rebuild. I am pro Flames rebuild because I think they have a strong prospect pool with depth, some good supporting characters in the right age range on their big league team but they lack the high end talent to be able to compete for cups, particularly down the middle. When you look at the strength of the next few drafts and the amount of high end talent available, combine it with what is already a solid base, I think you have the makings of a really exciting product in 3-4 years. That wouldn't' have been my answer in 2019 or 2020. Lots should factor into the analysis IMO and it shouldn't be as simple as either get a top 2 pick or you'll never win.
  2. 3 points
    Thanks kehatch for a NEW thread.lol I voted rebuild if we have another year like last year. But honestly, I think we have zoned in on some of the things that have really been hurting us. Not much change to the core, but I'm not positive the core has been the problem. A complete lack of 60 minutes of compete, no grit, no pushback, a team that always falls into a hole without the resilience to get out of it. When you find yourself in a hole, stop digging they say. The team's composition never did that. "Have Ritchie beat someone up"...never mattered. I like the adds, as residual as they seem. It will be the bottom 6 that keeps the entire roster up. So this is a retool to me. We've retooled our bottom 6, which was god awful. Most think it doesn't need move the needle, but I see it differently. Our bottom 6 is no longer going to get completely outworked so that is going to be a big boost. How the roster comes together is pretty exciting to me. Lots of parts and methods it seems. Pitlick, for me, is a nice add. He will chip in with secondary scoring. His career high is 15 goals playing with junk and doing it all by himself. Coleman always plays with a sense of urgency so that's a nice add for what has been a pretty vanilla team. When Sutter calls someone out in the media, Lewis and Richardson can talk to the player. "Yes. This is what he does. Don't get mad at him, get mad at yourself. He's not lying". Role players that know their role very well. Size on D. No more stick checking. Punish. Nothing slows a forward down more than being aware that there's a heavy hitter on the ice. As much as I don't see Gudbranson as a good add, I also have to wonder if Sutter has always been laughing at his usage. He wanted him here, so he likely sees something that I don't. Finally, this team filled me full of spite last year with their pathetic levels of, "try". Whining about it got tiring to the point that my give-a-crap-level was the same as theirs. But that's exhausting too. So I've stopped whining and it's a new season to watch and hope that fixing the bottom 6, piling in Dmen and G prospects is a good start. Now our top 6 has a platform to stand on. If they falter, then it's time to address that. I hope we've fixed a lot of the real problems now. Not long term solutions, but perhaps a better look at being a true 4 line team, built from the net out. Without skipping over the 3rd and 4th lines like we could just throw anyone there.
  3. 2 points
    Tkachuk’s comments make me think he has every intention of signing his QO next year and walking right out the door as a UFA. Probably best To move him now if possible. He doesn’t sound like a team guy in this case.
  4. 2 points
    I think I have made my view clear with all the Eichel talk. M. Tkachuk is up for contract renewal and based off these comments, he will be looking for a raise. A combination of the brothers in the 8-10 mil range without a higher salary cap would handicap the Flames signing other players. For me, less than a tenth of the team should not make almost a quarter of the Salary cap. If Ottawa or St.Louis want to pull a Toronto or Edmonton, go ahead but I don’t want that in Calgary.
  5. 2 points
    Tarasenko ($2.5 retained) and Thomas for Tkachuk. I'm all in.. Thomas is a way better all-around player than Tkachuk. Hard RHC. Do it. We have LW. Thomas alone is better. Tarasenko must feel outright insulted. I'd like a star RW with a giant chip on his shoulder. One less one dimensional mouthpiece LW. For a high end RW and a budding, solid RHC. That's better than Eichel imho. If Army has to include Thomas to move Tara, I'll be pissed if it's for less than Tkalughead.
  6. 2 points
    Came acrross this: As many think a small major have a negative over tone to the Flames, I will just leave this here: In a article Dom Luszczyszyn of The Athletic wrote less than a month ago, he got responses from over 17,000 fans who ranked NHL front offices from best to worst. (from ‘Dom Luszczyszyn: 2021 NHL front office rankings: Fans weigh in on every team’ , The Athletic — 08/25/21). The Flames placed 24th out of 32 teams, and Luszczyszyn summed the reasoning up perfectly. “The Flames are at the same crossroads that all average teams are at when they realize they’re stuck in the mushy middle: go all-in or fold” Luszczyszyn wrote. “Pick a lane and either try to contend or try to rebuild. Doing neither just delays the inevitable and wastes time for everyone and that lack of vision is obviously going to be frustrating to a hungry fan base. Only 4 percent were more confident in this team now than they were last year, the lowest of any team in the league. Do something!”
  7. 2 points
    Ahhh, so those who disagree or vary in opinion should have no say
  8. 2 points
    What I think needs to happen is a new thread like, "The Hive of Doom", that you folks could hang out in. There are enough of you. Come tell us that you told us so occasionally. We'd love that.
  9. 2 points
    Ah but putting the blame on Tre is where imho I think you and JJ are wrong. The blame lies higher up!!
  10. 2 points
    I agree with lots of this, in particular that the club is in better shape now and moving forward than many others think. However, to build on that I think it depends on what the end goal of this is. If the end game is to have a team that is competitive, able to make the playoffs more often than not, and maybe get lucky and go on a run than I agree things are on the right path. However, if the end goal is to win a cup than I am very much in the camp that I don't see that happening with the path they are on because I don't see where the impact talent is going to come from. As much as we can say ok well go find a Point or a Bergeron (and without question they should be doing that anyway and I believe they are) I would suggest personally it is very unlikely to happen. But yes if it's being framed that the Flames are doomed so they might as well tank then I hear you and agree with that. I've said in other threads I think this team is built to be competitive for several more years but there is a big leap between being competitive and winning a cup. I don't see the path they are on closing that gap personally, but happy to be wrong there.
  11. 2 points
    That's precisely what I am doing. Flipping the script. The other side is presenting, "we have to tank for a high pick". I'm saying no we don't. Particularly with a ridiculous lottery system that doesn't guarantee a top 3 pick. Datsyuk was a 6th rder. Lidstrom a 3rd. Benn, Kucherov, Point et.al., we can call them outliers, but there are plenty of outliers if that's what we're calling it. Now we can pretend scouting is world's better now, unfortunately that's not the case. I know 2 scouts, 1 for the Wings, 1 for the Pens. Here's why there's always a consensus. It's an old boys club. They all gather together in 1 section of the arena to watch the same player(s), spill drinks and laugh it up like it's a family reunion. I've had this conversation with both. Their primary interest seems to be respect amongst their peers. Just like high school. So finding the hidden future NHLers is as easy as telling your scouts to sit elsewhere and not to follow the consensus. 1 scout I know actually took my advice and is stalwart. They all piggy-back off of each other. If I'm a GM, that's not what I'm paying for. This is how the Moritz Seider's go 6thoa when consensus is 6th best International player. Kid will be a monster NHLer. Building a solid foundation and adding to it smartly, I get that part. What I'm saying is you don't have to sell off every asset for picks and tank to accomplish that. Even Aho was a 2nd rder. It happens. A lot. Pelletier has the toolbox to be a Voracek-type, Zary a Couture. Our pipeline is looking the best it has in years. D is on the weak side, but we just graduated Andersson, Valimaki, potentially Mackey. But most are short on patience and out of time due to our old pipeline of Poirier's, Bouma's etc. My mission is to pull everyone back from the ledge. We aren't in as bad of shape as is being spewed all over. Both Pell and Zary are more than capable of transitioning to the next level. And yes, we do have a good GM. Too many want him fired. Impassioned, but misguided. We're only getting better. Now I just wait to prove my point. Talking heads are like scouts, they thrive on consensus as a group. One piles on, the rest follow suit. Let's all think for ourselves. We aren't as bad as a lot of people seem to be cheering for. Typical.
  12. 2 points
    I think as fans, we like to put simple explanations forward to keep things easy. "You need to have a first overall to win the cup" or "You need X number of ELCs" or "You need X caliber player as X,Y, and Z positions". I have done it. You have done it. Its how we set up context for an argument or discussion. But the reality is, you need the best players and the best team to win and there isn't a specific recipe to achieving that. That said, we all know that the best place to get the best players is the draft. The best way to get the best players in the draft is to draft higher and more often. And the best way to get the highest and most picks is to rebuild. I agree with you that the top SC teams had a lot of great players to complement the other great players they got in top spots of the drafts. But those teams still had the great players they got in the top spots of the draft. The issue with the Flames is we don't have the strong base the consistently great teams do. We don't have the top players at any position, and the two we have that can occasionally be in the conversation are at the least important position (LW). Could we find those players outside of a top 3 draft pick? Possibly. Its why people like me are advocating for Eichel. But its a lot harder. Some fans look at it like this. Are we good enough to be legitimate SC contenders with the base we have? No, then lets rebuild. Its that simple, and it leads to a lot of the arguments describe at the paragraph "The only way too ..." or "If we don't then terrible thing X,Y will occur". The owners don't look at it like that though. Playoffs and big name players is where you make your money. When you don't have those two things, then you rebuild to get those two things, but certainly not before. For coaches and GMs, if you can make the playoffs you might be the next 04 Flames, 06 Oilers, 20 Canadians, or even better 19 Blues. The GM and coaches aren't going to have a job through a rebuild.
  13. 2 points
    Eichel is better. A rough 'tier' of Cs looks something like: McDavid, MacKinnon, Matthews, Crosby, Draisaitl Bergeron, Eichel, Shcheifele, Barkov, Aho Point, Tavares, Malkin, O'Reilly, Pettersson, Kopitar, Backstrom, a few others Monahan along with a rather large list. I would put Lindholm here as well if he plays C. You can shuffle a few guys around the list I guess, but Eichel is levels above Monahan. Injury is a concern for Eichel for sure, but it is for Monahan as well. Monahan put up fewer points then Backlund last year, and that was his second season in decline. I certainly understand the concern about giving up futures, especially from a team that may need to rebuild or retool soon, but I look at it this way. In 2013 Feaster offered three first round picks, one the 6 OA, for MacKinnon. It took MacKinnon 5 years to really find his groove (bringing him roughly to the age Eichel is now). That trade would have amounted to Monahan, Klimchuk, and Poirier for MacKinnon. This is an opportunity to do the same to get an elite C, but this time one that is just entering his prime. Look at it another way. The Flames spend years in a rebuild and came out with Monahan, Gaudreau, Lindholm, Tkachuk, Hanafin, and a few D with potential. Gaudreau is the oldest guy on that last and he just turned 28. The Flames can spend 5 years rebuilding again hoping they get luckier then last time (and hope they get an Eichel caliber C). Or potentially they could add one of the elite Cs, possibly without even losing any of the core pieces listed above. A final way to look at it. The Flames likely will not rebuild. The ownership drug their feet as long as possible last time with a core much older and much less competitive then the one we have. We have already heard they are trying to extend Gaudreau, and we saw this summer that they didn't trade anyone. This time they have a new arena on the way. Even if a rebuild was the right and best chance, if the Flames won't do it then it doesn't matter. In which case fixing your biggest hole makes sense. I know the price for Eichel is 4 1st round picks or equivalent. But nobody is paying that which is why we are talkin about this in September. Whatever it comes too, the Flames should be making a serious offer for him. You have a bunch of high caliber D ready to break out, a couple of strong goalie options, and some value wingers you can use to further tweak the team if necessary. The Flames could use what they have and retool over the next 2 seasons and come out a contender. Are there risks? Sure. But a rebuild is at least as big of risk, and staying the course is a guarantee not to contend.
  14. 2 points
    Go for it. If you follow other teams for as long as you've followed the Flames you'll find the exact same thing unless you jump from ship to ship. You make it sound like this is a Flames specific problem. I'm almost 40, teams I've never seen win the cup: Maple Leafs, Senators, Canucks, Sabres, Sharks, Jets/Coyotes, Thrashers/Jets, Wild, Panthers, Bluejackets, Predators, Flyers. 5 of those I've never seen in the finals. Then are teams that have existed before me that have only won 1 cup in my life, Blues, Capitals, Rangers, Stars, Whalers/Hurricanes, Bruins. Add in the Rangers have only won one cup in both mine and my dad's life despite never struggling to attract top free agents. Any team that has had success has had periods of being dreadful. Wings had a 40 year drought, Blackhawks 39 years, Kings 40+, Penguins probably wouldn't even exist if not for a couple generational players. This is sports, as bad as you think you have it there are plenty of fans just as depressed as you are.
  15. 1 point
    I dunno. I think it rarely works to spend that high on players. In my view, the only times it has worked was Crosby and maybe Ovechkin. I guess you can now toss Tampa in there. But 10+ contacts seem to hurt a team more than it helps. And to have a few, it really straps the team.
  16. 1 point
    but does that mean that Ottawa Tkachuk is worth 9+ or 10+? I don’t even know if he’s worth 8 yet and maybe he is that. How much would the cap have risen if it didn’t flatten out? I don’t know if I like the players anymore lol. It’s all money and not really about hockey.
  17. 1 point
    All I can say is the greed of these Players and owner ship is making it very hard for ppl to afford the to visit the games and the way the economy is going they just might push the whole NHL out because PPL will need to look at cheaper avenues to put there money to entertain the Family .
  18. 1 point
    Lol yes but he also said this is part of how the negotiation game is played…it’s called posturing, which given the flat cap, it’s important to do…IMO, he’s just trying to keep the expectations high enough that the QO isn’t and bad as it could be…reality is, 9mil in a flat cap is tough to take on for any team..again, he’s trying to get and or keep max value…will he get it? Hard to say with a flat cap…the other question is will he get it in Cgy or elsewhere? Also hard to say…this COVID flat cap is a whole Economic era, teams are tightening their belts and players on down want less…so it’s kinda a wait and see thing, I think your gonna see guys like Tachuck and Gaudreau wait to sign extensions, it makes sense to see if things improve as the season moves on, they may opt for different contracts depending on how everything unfolds…maybe they go with a more back loaded contract because of the flat cap or maybe they go short term who knows? But I do get where the players are thinking, why sign now…especially long term if in 1-3 years things are better…signing long term now they are leaving a lot of money on the table…anyway, I’m kinda of the thinking that’s where a lot of this is coming from. as for guys needing to dig deep that is the kinda thing a captain or any leader should be saying…I’m ok with that. and I’m not sure why this is such a big surprise, the whole reason Matty got 7mil last go around was cause his daddy’s involvement…if I recall the same thing was said back then, it being a family business. I’m a huge fan of Tachuck, but if we could flip him for a better return and not hav daddy’s BS involved I’d be very ok with that…but again, has to be the right return like a 1st rounder and a top tier prospect… I think ther Thomas+ Tero Stl deal would be reasonable, though I’m not confident Tero is gonna be 100% ever again, he may still be a decent add…the real gem to the deal would be Thomas
  19. 1 point
    You guys can probably guess I'd take picks straight up, but really any fair deal that doesn't make us older sounds good to me.
  20. 1 point
    The Flames should trade Matthew, today. The mouth on him, they should have traded him a long time ago if this is how he was in the dressing room. Treliving, what have you been doing, lol? I don't care if he's right or wrong about Sutter, the attitude on that kid is insane. All this drafting of local north americans just to get entitlement like this. Unbelievable entitlement for a kid in the least valuable position in hockey (LHS). He should be gone and I can't believe he's still here. Every day he stays on this team from here on out is a mistake.
  21. 1 point
    This needs it's own thread... Re-tooling is better than rebuilding. Who are consistently the best teams in the NHL right now along with TBay? The Boston Bruins. The NYI. They achieved that without high picks on their current roster. We can consistently redo drafts and it's easy to see that the top 5 drafted players are not the best players from the draft. So that is my argument and I believe it's a solid one.Then, there is the Oilers and Sabres. More arguments against high picks having the impact on winning that is being promoted. It just isn't the case. Why kid ourselves into thinking that it's a great solution? The evidence doesn't support it.
  22. 1 point
    Yeah but then he got Gudbranson😂
  23. 1 point
    Holy Christ, get over yourself🤣
  24. 1 point
    @conundrumed Well... he wasn't that yesterday. Anyone else want to really shoot their mouth off about Francis and all our prospects that are better than him before the season starts? Now's your chance. There's little risk, when you're proven wrong about Francis you can always come back with "well hindsight is 2020, it's easy to say that now"
  25. 1 point
  26. 1 point
    maybe we are.. Maybe our deveopment is the issue and not drafting.. We currently have Corranado./Zary/Pelletier/Wolf as well as some untamed europeans in the stable .. That's not too shabby.. Let's see what becomes of them
  27. 1 point
    Other drafts were supposedly loaded. 2005 and 2013 come to mind that were quite underwhelming overall, so I hear about these classes which feature kids who've lost a lot of playing time due to COVID, I do become skeptical of how good they will be. But even in good drafts there are duds. But overall I'm just a live in the moment kind of guy, I would rather watch an up and down season that ends in disappointment vs. a completely down season that maybe gives hope for 5 years from now, I'm choosing the now route because I can be dead in 5 years.
  28. 1 point
    After missing the playoffs the past three seasons, the Flames traded Iginla kicking off a rebuild they had been procrastinating for far too long. The following off season the Flames draft Sean Monahan, and over the next 5 seasons the Flames continued to rebuild their core. This included signing their top prospect (Gaudreau), drafting Tkachuk, and adding both Lindholm and Hanafin in a trade. In the first season following the Lindholm / Hanafin acquisition the Flames won the Western Conference. Unfortunately, they were embarrassed in the first round of the playoffs. The following season they squeaked into the Playoffs, and were again ousted in the first round. Last season the Flames were 3 wins shy of making the playoffs in what was arguably the worst division in modern NHL history. Most fans, myself included, thought the Flames were in for a busy off season with changes to the core. However, the Flames instead opted to take one more kick at it with the current core, likely due to the influence of the new head coach Daryll Sutter. Instead of making sweeping changes Treliving instead focused on depth players in an effort to make the Flames more difficult to play against (and more Sutter like). Both Gaudreau, Tkachuk, and Mangiapane are due an extension next season, and Monahan the season after that. If the Flames falter this season do they continue to stay the course? Do they finally make some changes to the teams core? Or do we see the team enter into a full rebuild?
  29. 1 point
    For the most part I agree with this, I also can see where the others are trying to stay optimistic with the direction. I, as well as others may come across as negative to the club but really its just an honest assesment. We live in a society where the truth is something no one wishes to hear. If being average is the highest standard we can obtain than they have accomplished the goal. Now has Tre's whole tender been a flop, no, but its much like this clubs success rate has been average to below average. There are many here that have a subjective opinion and others that base theirs on objective opinion, to each their own. However the objective is to WIN a championship that should be what ever athlete strives to do. IMHO when things got derailed is when Hartley took us to the 2nd round, that is when blind optimism took over instead of continuing on the rebuild, that 100% falls on Tre. Hindsight is 20/20 but just consider for a few seconds if we didn't trade those 2 -1st rounders and 4 - 2nd Rounders inthe Hamilton/ Hamonic trades away to try and win now, where would we be? 2015 we would have had Barzal, 2018 Dobson or Farabee where would our club be than!
  30. 1 point
    And let's not forget Fox took the, "I'm a pos" route either. We took him in the 2nd. He's a pos. Let's just direct every slapshot at him. See how much he likes NY. If I'm Sutter. "Forwards, let him run. Zady, Guddy, take a suspension". I hope we remind Fox every time, hurtfully, that he's a pos. That's team building.
  31. 1 point
    Well, technically speaking, I'm being realistic, we finished 20th overall which is brutal, and any Flames fan I speak to is disgusted right now. Just spoke to one a few minutes ago, asked them their thoughts.... long pause... sigh... "terrible" walked away for a second came back "sorry" This is Reallity, it is not blindness. I will be here as long as it takes to win another cup and I'll be on the red mile beer in hand. Whether it's in the Saddledome or the Event Center or whatever they build after that. Here's the interesting thing. When we rebuild, and we will, a whole bunch of "fans" will head for the exits. I'm that guy who will be there cheering the Flames on when they just have a couple of 20 year olds in the lineup and they're losing like crazy but they have a stacked prospect system. I'll be there, and I'll be the most positive guy around. I think you will be too. But most won't. You don't need to ask me why I stick around when things are bad. You need to ask yourself why you're so afraid of it.
  32. 1 point
    So the question remains. Why do you hang around? You're so negative about everything surrounding the team that it makes you blind with rage. Nobody actually needs that. Between you and peeps, you'd think we have nothing positive at all. This is where the false dichotomy lives. Pretending that we're horrible at everything. Nothing is right, nothing is good enough. Grab a straw, maybe it'll be the long one. Stop telling us how bad we are at everything for not being TBag. False dichotomy. Bad translation. If you can't see some positives, why hang around?
  33. 1 point
    I have seen that some of the scouting agencies now hire millenials who have never played hockey and actually do writeups across hockey, baseball, basketball lol. It won't be long before we start to shore up our defence and running out powerplays with point guards.
  34. 1 point
    Scouts are like the high school jocks that sit at one table in the high school cafeteria making fun of everyone else. This is why they're wrong, a lot. They lead consensus. Yet they're too dumb to understand why it goes wrong. They have a "pack-mentality". I'd love to be a director of scouting.lol The riot act would be read. First order of business. I would be angry. A lot. They aren't very open-minded, more like high school jocks pretending to be smart.
  35. 1 point
    i;ve always wondered who gives the parameters of skill set we want .. Is it the coach?? g.m?? head of scouting?? something seems missing
  36. 1 point
    The Flames can not be compared to the Oilers as we have not had a #1 draft chocie EVER. There is not guarnatee in either system of retool or rebuild. However, there is a commom ground. You have to have a GM that actually has a clue and a coach that can lead the way. We have the coach and he is decorated with 2 cups for it, Queniville, Trots, Cooper have won cups, These coaches can make teams better. However you can only go so far with a good coach, crap roster and meat head for GM. Edmontons issue have always been, Crap coaches, Worst GM's and top draft picks. What has worked is Tampa and CHI did was good draft picks, good coach and GM. LA won the cups with an #1 center, #1 Dman and a rock solid goaltending complimented by a coach that got players to buy in and a GM that understood this.
  37. 1 point
    The Islanders got a very good centre (I struggle with elite status on Barzal as there is still a group of centres I put ahead of him) by trading a #4 overall pick. The Islanders picked top 5, 5 times in a 6 year span. Tavares (lost for nothing), Niederetter (traded for average player, and less productive than Nelson who they drafted #30), Strome (traded for Eberle who was lost for nothing), Reinhart (traded for Barzal), Dal Colle (lost for nothing). There actual rebuild, which can be considered their 3rd or 4th since their dynasty. I think the Islanders would be another middling team if they continued with rookie head coaches, Trotz is the difference maker there, with a full season and actual training camp we can see if Sutter can do the same here I think Pittsburgh, Chicago and LA models stick out for wrong reasons. Pittsburgh couldn't afford to ice a decent team, but its hard to find comparable in recent years for getting Crosby-Malkin in consecutive years, best I can think of would be Eichel-Matthews and even then they aren't the same calibre, Chicago didn't want to pay any of their stars and came into the cap world as a team that spent a lot on mediocre players, plus fluked out completely with winning the '07 lottery and the overrating of Erik Johnson and Jordan Staal. LA hit a jackpot before they went into full rebuild mode with Kopitar falling to them. But those teams should be offset by the other teams during that period that also committed to rebuilds that produced nothing, or even teams like St. Louis and Washington who started the same time, but tinkered with their rosters after failures and drafted well with later 1sts. Recent trends are showing this "short term pain, long term gain" isn't exactly a guarantee. Edmonton with 4 #1's and 2 other top 5's since 2009 have won 1 playoff round, Colorado with 4 top 5's since 2009 haven't made it to the 3rd round, Florida with 4 top 5's haven't won a round, Buffalo with 3 top 5's (excluding 2021) haven't made the playoffs, Toronto with 3 top 5's no series wins. But if we got one of Shane Wright or Conor Bedard we will be like Pittsburgh guaranteed, with zero chances of being just like Edmonton.
  38. 1 point
    Here’s a counter point… Tor Edm they suddenly went from bottom to legit threats with the additions of Matthews and McDavid Also, Col with the addition of McKinnon… going back in history we have the already mentioned Pits and Chi..but also Was when they drafted Ovie… anyway the impact and point of having a generational player is huge, we had had that since Iggy, and that was just lucky. And of some of the teams mentions above, keeping in mind they also had to make a few moves to get in position, you don’t need to tank to draft high, must manage your assets properly… so here in Cgy, we have the worst luck of any team, therefore move assets at the TDL for picks..bundle a few to land a generational talent…it’s cheaper in cap hit and the amount of assets needed to trade for a injured possible one.
  39. 1 point
    conundrumed: LOL, Who is Adam Fox? What is ELC? What is Uber? Those are the kind of stats we need to be reminded of = lousy odds. ... and what a BORING 2 to 5 year GAMBLE with no team on the ice, and knowing they are throwing games. WHAT A DRAG! Not worth my time even watching, not to mention a sicK bit of sportsmanship. You think the org doesn't know that?! You think the org would survive in Calg? FLAMES TANK, NO TANKS! PS... and 1 player does not a team make (Connor, still yet to prove).
  40. 1 point
    Or Edmonton? Or Buffalo? Or NJ? Or Ottawa? You know as well as anyone that the tank to eventually succeed model is dicey at best. You get the best player for 3 yrs on an ELC, there's your window. Then he's going to need 12-15% of your cap. Now your window is closing. McDavid and Draisaitl easily compare to Crosby and Malkin. But it doesn't matter. Scrapping everything is not a good plan. I know many want to see it, but in reality, it's a really piss-poor tactic. Even Ovi didn't put the team on his back. It's easily argued Kuznetzov did just as much. A 26th oa. Now if we can get over the silly mindset of "bpa-unless he's Russian", that could help a lot. Point's a 3rd rounder, Kucherov's a 2nd rder, Datsyuk was a 6th along with Markov in the same draft. Jamie Benn's a 5th rder. We can do this all day. Don't need to tank for a high pick to get a great player. We picked Adam Fox...now we should just shoot pucks at his head...
  41. 1 point
    good on you for being optimistic. It’s a fact the Flames try as hard as possible when they’re out of it though. They always win a few at the end when other teams have given up. and you said earlier, if they just beat Ottawa. There’s a fact in there, they didn’t win a lot of games against them. So you can’t say if, especially if you’re going to call me out on ifs…
  42. 1 point
    The only way this makes sense, is maybe moving BT to a president of hockey role, and then having Futa as GM, but this looks and sounds like click bait. Even with Sutter / Futa history.
  43. 1 point
    Basically yes. It is all your opinion, and when you compare Paul Byron as a Flame as anything comparable to Mangiapane as a Flame I can't take the rest of your argument serious.
  44. 1 point
    Call me 'skeptically intrigued' about this season. On paper, we are worse. We lost our captain and top D and our response was to use the cap to rebuild our bottom lines and pairings. For a team with a lot of holes, and one where even the GM was promising core changes, that's lead to a big snicker across 31 fan bases (and a lot in fan base 32 as well). But I agree with you. The rebuild of our depth was designed around a proven and elite coach who seems to have faith in the team. If last years team played like a proper Sutter team for the full season then we would have made the playoffs. The biggest issue with the Flames has been them underplaying and under achieving. The coach and additions may give us the identity we need to right that ship. That said, a lot needs to go right. The coach and additions need to have that positive impact. A bunch of players need to rebound, including Markstrom, Monahan, and Tkachuk. A young D or two need to step up. And the Flames need to figure out where to find goals, because they certainly didn't bring any in this summer. We also need to deal with our best players expiring contract. I really don't know what to expect from this team. Best guess is they make the playoffs as a low seed. But they could win the conference or be bottom 5 and neither would shock me.
  45. 1 point
    With only 4 playoff appearances in 10+ years and only one playoff round won since '04 is there any reason to think another disappointing season would change anything?
  46. 1 point
    Yeah but you forgot the part to my point…2022 and 2023 drafts are Uber deep and Uber talented…your better off taking your chances on 4x 1st rounders in theses drafts than trading for eichel, who is not a step defund McKinnon, he’s actually behind Monahan’s numbers and being paid 10 mil…at that price I’d much rather trade 4x1st to col for McKinnon…and if they were for this draft or 2023 they would do it in a heart beat cause they’d be getting so much more than just McKinnon out of that deal… hence the smart play is to Wait till TDL trade Gaudreau, Monahan, Backlund and whoever else’s (except maybe Tachuck, Anderson, Valimaki and Lindholm, need some vet and Already developed Or nearly developed D) you will land at least 1x McKinnon, maybe 2x Monahan’s and Backlund out of this and or next draft, worsts case..which is a huge improvement over where we are now and a far cry better than taking on an injured 10mil Eichel
  47. 1 point
    The big difference is: 1. Monahan is being dangled to see his value, Cgy is not actually trying to unload or move on from, and because of this, they just haven’t seen the value in moving him as he’s MORE valuable where he is at the price they pay him…he’s got a health issue that’s kinda minor but is effecting what he worth in trade right now..or maybe minor but like Eichel, I suspect it’s lowering his value greater than what keeping him would be…at least for now, after surgery and a good first 1/2 of the season is suspect he could be traded easily for a value that Cgy is willing to move him for… 2. Eichel is paid a lot to be an elite carry the team Francine Ctr, he hasn’t done that and they are asking the equivalent to 4x1st rounders…and he’s asked to be moved, and he’s got a very major health issue…now like Monahan, after surgery and a good start well then maybe the difference is Cgy is getting lowball offers whereas Buf is asking a kings ransom for a guy that’s way over paid for what he’s produced… put it this way, for 10 mil I expect Crosby or McKinnon…for 6.75 I expect Monahan…Eichel has not even hit Monahan production but is paid at a Crosby/McKinnon level…argue yeh but it was on Buf all you want he had an amazing wingman in Reinhart and still failed to produce Monahan numbers period…I’d argue Reinhart is a more complete player than Gaudreau and overall better and as such, or even if lest say Reinhart is only just as good as Gaudreau, in either case, Eichel should have been better, at 10 mil per, if not at least equal Monahan…but he has not and looking at this logic, this is exactly why he’s not been traded yet and why, when he is traded it’s going to shock people at how much less of a return it is than what Buf is asking for…it’s also why if Monahan is traded, it’s gonna be mid season or TDL and provided he’s healed back up property he’s gonna have a great season and fetch a good first+ anyway the point is Eichel is paid and expected to be the franchise guy, he’s not been capable of that on Buf…more will he be anywhere els, he’s at best a younger 10 mil Monahan…so why spend more for the same and throwaway 3-4x first round picks? It’s just bad business and that’s why he’s still in Buf and why he will be till the cost of acquiring him is sensible which at this point would be a conditional 1st and prospect (injury makes the 1st conditional…he prospect is paying for him hitting hit potential as an elite Ctr)
  48. 1 point
    Prob not but no one will know until Eichel does move. Someone will overpay, I just dont want it to be the Flames.
  49. 1 point
    Lets try and move onto something more positive. I think there are some (gasp) reasons for optimism right now. For a few reasons. Almost every team is bad at drafting and developing goalies I looked at each NHL teams drafted goalies from 2005 through 2014 drafts. This covers ten drafts over the cap era without getting into guys who are still developing. I considered any goalie with at least 100 NHL starts as a success. 207 goalies were drafted over those 10 years. 16% of them played 100 games or more. Remove the career back-ups and your at 11%. Remove the guys who broke out with another team and you are at 9%. A third of the league went 10 drafts without getting an NHL goalie, just like Calgary (though Brossoit will likely break the 100 game mark, just not with Calgary). The point is, Calgary isn't unique in our lack of finding NHL goalies in the draft, and our struggles don't translate to a permanent curse. Tampa drafted and developed the best goalie in the NHL. They have drafted 28 goalies over the entire franchise and that was their only hit to date. We have a number of prospects worth paying attention to We have had prospects to get excited about in the past. I get the 'fool me once' tone, but its been a bit since we have had two AAA prospects and prospects across multiple levels. (NHL) Vlader was only moved due to to congestion in Boston's crease (sound familiar) and was moved versus losing him on waivers. He looked great 4 of the 5 NHL games he started for last season (and 5 was a throw away). His pro numbers are really good, and its tough to find many in the know who don't think this guy has NHL upside. A lot of Boston fans are really upset they lost him. (AHL/Junior) Wolf's numbers are insane. The Hockey Writers have him ranked as the 4 best goalie prospect in the NHL (one spot behind the guy who caused Vlader to be traded to Calgary), and that is pretty consistent across the league. Most prospect rankings have Wolf as our fourth best prospect, behind our three first round picks. If he wasn't a bit on the short side (for a goalie) he would be ranked higher. I know that height is an issue, but he isn't that short. Saros, Halak, Quick, Grubaur, etc are all similar height. (Others) Lets face it, the best goalies are often the ones we didn't expect. Sergeyev is a great dark horse prospect. He has passed every test handed to him, he just needs some tougher tests. Chechelev has put up some good numbers in Russia and is making his way to NA. Parsons was highly touted as a prospect before injury, but he rebounded well in the ECHL last season. I keep hearing good things about Werner even though his resume doesn't really scream future NHLer. I get that every team has these types of prospects, and most won't work out. But the Flames have a lot of bullets in this gun significantly improving the chance at a hit. The point is we will have valid prospects at the NHL level, AHL level, and one representing each of the last three drafts. Two of those prospects are highly ranked, with one of them listed as one of the best goalie prospects in the NHL. Meanwhile, we have no need to rush any of them as we have a legitimate NHL starter in net. Don't worry, be happy .... I know enough not to overplay the goalie hand. Its possible none of the guys above work out. But I can't remember the last time Calgary was this flush in legitimate NHL players and prospect at the G position. The history is a concern, but as I said above, that isn't unique to Calgary and some of the best goalies in the league were drafted and developed by teams who historically struggle doing that. I think goal tending prospects is an area of strength for the organization right now. It certainly isn't inline with the general tone of this thread.
  50. 1 point
    I’d argue if you wanna build from the net out, don’t skip over the bottom lines. Has everyone forgotten our amazing UFA superstars of the past? I like this path.
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