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HATE TO LOSE???????


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#1 The_People1

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Posted 20 January 2010 - 11:11 PM

Butter has created the psychology that it doesn't matter if we win or lose, it's how we play.

When we won early on while playing a temporary system, Butter rips into the team.
When we lose with a lack of effort, Butter rips into the team.

When we win playing Butter's way, Butter is cool about it.
When we lose playing Butter's way, Butter is cool about it.

#2 The_People1

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Posted 20 January 2010 - 11:59 PM

The_People1">


Butter has created the psychology that it doesn't matter if we win or lose, it's how we play.

When we won early on while playing a temporary system, Butter rips into the team.
When we lose with a lack of effort, Butter rips into the team.

When we win playing Butter's way, Butter is cool about it.
When we lose playing Butter's way, Butter is cool about it.
Good points indeed.
So is he maybe part of the problem approaching the aspect of losing on the whole, the wrong way. By letting it be acceptable as long as the guys are buying into his system and playing the way he wants? Maybe Butter needs to change up a little bit the whole aspect of losing period isn't acceptable weather or not they are playing his system. I know he doesn't want to be to hard on them but there is too not being hard enough on them over specific things. I don't know but good points there buddy.


Points are great for the standings but in philosophy, what good are they when points come while deviating from the system?  From Butter's perspective, it doesn't achieve the ultimate goal of getting the guys on the same page and playing consistent hockey.  It's like cheating on an exam to pass it.  At the end of the day, you just cheated yourself.  Butter is trying to get guys accountable for their game and this is probably the only way to do it right.

I mean, it's not the playoffs yet.  If we're in the playoffs, then just win no matter what.  We're still sort of tuning things so we got to get everybody on the team on the right psychology.


#3 The_People1

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Posted 21 January 2010 - 02:01 AM

The_People1">



Points are great for the standings but in philosophy, what good are they when points come while deviating from the system?  From Butter's perspective, it doesn't achieve the ultimate goal of getting the guys on the same page and playing consistent hockey.  It's like cheating on an exam to pass it.  At the end of the day, you just cheated yourself.  Butter is trying to get guys accountable for their game and this is probably the only way to do it right.

I mean, it's not the playoffs yet.  If we're in the playoffs, then just win no matter what.  We're still sort of tuning things so we got to get everybody on the team on the right psychology.
So what was Monday? A flagrant display of defiance to Butter's System? Or an Excusable but major brain fart of the entire team?
I understand systems and the theory of sticking with them and or buying into them but what the heck was Monday?
And exactly what is it that should happen after major break downs like that?

Chalk it up as the second game of a back-to-back against the best team in the NHL.


#4 Barney_Gumble

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Posted 20 January 2010 - 12:35 PM

I'm sure they hate to lose. However, their psyches aren't as fragile as some of the fans, and as professionals they realize that they'll lose about 30-40% of the games in an 82 game season.

#5 My_Team_Is_Number1

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Posted 20 January 2010 - 06:01 PM

I think what you mean by saying they don't "hate to lose" is like saying they have no "Hunger to win". When do you get the hunger to win? You get it when you play like a well oiled machine. Then atleast your playing to your satisfaction even though you might lose in the process but the hunger is still there. This smoke show they came out of was bound to come. The previous weeks they were playing and winning games 2-1, thats great for defence and goaltending but not as far as the offence goes they had no confidence in their game. The constant pressures of different line combos every game,  that has to be discouraging to any offensive mind especially if your not scoring. I dont think the hunger is there, I think the game plan is there but not followed and the offensive minds don't have the confidence they should.

#6 terrainman1

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Posted 20 January 2010 - 01:45 PM


I'm sure they hate to lose. However, their psyches aren't as fragile as some of the fans, and as professionals they realize that they'll lose about 30-40% of the games in an 82 game season.

No Barney they aren't as fragile and that is very true. However they aren't Rocket Scientists either and being given constant input that it is alright to lose a few here and there might have gone a little deeper than it was supposed to with these guys. Hence the theory is developed that it is alright to lose. When what really they all need is the psychological mindset that losing is like having to eat poop or drink urine or get bag skated to the point of puking after each and every loss for a while. I am sure they wouldn't like any of those and that is the mindset they need to be in when approaching the aspect of a loss.



#7 terrainman1

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Posted 20 January 2010 - 11:45 PM


Maybe some of the players e.x Phaneuf. But I'm sure there are plenty of players who hate to lose. What about Kipper/Iggy? You think after 04 they don't hate to lose? You think after there performances they don't hate to lose? You think at Conroy's age he doesn't mind losing? You don't think they are all hungry for lord Stanly's mug? after coming so close?

However there are players who never  got to feel true victory. Maybe those are the players you are referring too?

Waffle that is the whole tea with the exception of Cory Sarich. I am sure the whole on the surface thing is of course they hate to lose. I think it is more definitely what goes on after. They shrug it off and in the dressing room it is seemingly like a country club. They don't Fear losing. They don't loath it to the level of Pain, Humiliation, Exhaustion and Embarrassment.
Yes they are all hungry for Lord Stanley's Cup as are every player in the NHL. It is the little tiny hidden subconscious things that might be the problem.
These guys are always being fed Positive Encouragement and yes that is good. But the awareness of the things that are hidden deep and bringing them out I think is what might make a difference or offer a different perspective to why it is that things like Inconsistency run so ramped through this club.



#8 terrainman1

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Posted 20 January 2010 - 11:51 PM


Butter has created the psychology that it doesn't matter if we win or lose, it's how we play.

When we won early on while playing a temporary system, Butter rips into the team.
When we lose with a lack of effort, Butter rips into the team.

When we win playing Butter's way, Butter is cool about it.
When we lose playing Butter's way, Butter is cool about it.

Good points indeed.
So is he maybe part of the problem approaching the aspect of losing on the whole, the wrong way. By letting it be acceptable as long as the guys are buying into his system and playing the way he wants? Maybe Butter needs to change up a little bit the whole aspect of losing period isn't acceptable weather or not they are playing his system. I know he doesn't want to be to hard on them but there is too not being hard enough on them over specific things. I don't know but good points there buddy.



#9 terrainman1

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Posted 21 January 2010 - 01:29 AM



Points are great for the standings but in philosophy, what good are they when points come while deviating from the system?  From Butter's perspective, it doesn't achieve the ultimate goal of getting the guys on the same page and playing consistent hockey.  It's like cheating on an exam to pass it.  At the end of the day, you just cheated yourself.  Butter is trying to get guys accountable for their game and this is probably the only way to do it right.

I mean, it's not the playoffs yet.  If we're in the playoffs, then just win no matter what.  We're still sort of tuning things so we got to get everybody on the team on the right psychology.

So what was Monday? A flagrant display of defiance to Butter's System? Or an Excusable but major brain fart of the entire team?
I understand systems and the theory of sticking with them and or buying into them but what the heck was Monday?
And exactly what is it that should happen after major break downs like that?



#10 terrainman1

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Posted 25 January 2010 - 04:57 PM


I have actually had a discussion with one of my buddys on a similar topic.  I think the problem is that the flames dont like to lose they are just used to it.  Our core has been part of this losing culture for a long time, so yes it sucks but, maybe it doesnt suck as bad to them as a team of winners.  Look at who we pick up to help.  Joikenen, bowmeister; a loser franchise.  Cammerleri: losers.  Maybe we should start looking for players that come from a winning atmosphere.  I think the worst thing we can do is pick up Kovalchuk, hell be another one of those guys used to losing.  Stop with the losers!

Interesting points there buddy. It is something for sure I and too many others have thought about. Most of the people whom Sutter has picked up, Traded for and or any movement other than Drafting have come from Losing atmospheres as Florida, L.A., Phoenix, Edmonton, Chicago the time that Aucoin and Bourque were there. San Jose when Kipper came from there. Etc.
We have only gotten players from winning atmospheres a couple times but they weren't necessarily as highly touted as some others. ( D. Mac, Bertuzzi, Amonte, Hail ) Yes Bertuzzi and Amonte were higher touted players but they are on the downhill or were on the downhill portion of their Hockey Careers.
Very interesting indeed and indeed a point to consider when looking at UFA's, Trade Prospects and so forth.
Bigger gamble getting a highly touted player from a losing atmosphere than the same from a winning atmosphere.




#11 Psytic

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Posted 20 January 2010 - 02:31 PM

I want them to have the mindset that if they're down two goals they can still come back and win. They dont have a high compete level once more then a goal has gone in

#12 tuggles

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Posted 21 January 2010 - 04:34 PM

I have actually had a discussion with one of my buddys on a similar topic.  I think the problem is that the flames dont like to lose they are just used to it.  Our core has been part of this losing culture for a long time, so yes it sucks but, maybe it doesnt suck as bad to them as a team of winners.  Look at who we pick up to help.  Joikenen, bowmeister; a loser franchise.  Cammerleri: losers.  Maybe we should start looking for players that come from a winning atmosphere.  I think the worst thing we can do is pick up Kovalchuk, hell be another one of those guys used to losing.  Stop with the losers!

#13 japanjenius

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Posted 25 January 2010 - 07:02 PM

Coach Sutter made the comment in an early stage of the season that he had never seen a group of athletes so accepting of losing as this Flames team.  Once again, I will twist this as another chance to bash Iginla.  The Flames lose a big game and Iginla comes out with . . . "we should be better, we can be better, we will be better".  This guy just doesn't get it.  He said that after game 5 of the playoffs against Chicago.  How can a team not play their best in a best of 7 series when it is locked at two games a piece?  Iginla as a leader is too accepting of losing and it filters down to the entire team.  So we are clear, yes we all understand a team won't win every game, however as a player you should still get pissed off by this fact when you do lose.


#14 Doctor

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Posted 20 January 2010 - 12:13 PM

I agree. The players do not hate to lose. They lose and the paycheck still comes. Butter (as many of us can tell) DOES hate to lose. This has not translated to the players mentality and my only solution to the problem is to ship out players that are ok with losing and bring in some players that really hate to lose.

Look at the players we have come and gone... Tanguay, Huselius, Bertuzzi, Cammi... Well these players have one thing in common, they are ok with losing. We need to bring in players that hate to lose, I don't know who those players are but we need them. The one player that I believe is the best in the game at hating to lose is Sidney Crosby and we all know he isn't leaving Pittsburgh any time soon.

Point is we need to get rid of the players that have the mind set of it's ok to lose and bring in some players that are really passionate about the game.

#15 littlereddevil

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Posted 25 January 2010 - 10:24 PM

I hate losing.


Do the Flames?

I guess we'll find out....

#16 DirtyDeeds

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Posted 21 January 2010 - 04:58 AM

The end result is the team is rarely given time to dwell on a poor performance. The games are packed too tightly together to stop and contemplate or even feel good about wins or bad about losing much. Preparation for the next game takes a front seat or priority.

From the reports this last loss was shown and discussed next day and the team shown where they broke down. There was no bag skates or anything, just 2 practices where there might have been 1 day of rest these last couple of days.

#17 stirdapot09

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Posted 25 January 2010 - 06:05 PM

We are definately not the blue collar hard working team we once were in 04. Hence no more hard hat after winning games. We really lack a Krzysztof Oliwa(mcgrattons not the same), and a Ville Niemenin. I would gladly send Jokinen back to phoenex to bring lombo's deffensive intangibles and super fast skating back. Love conny but hes not the same player as 04, he should have retired at the end of last year. But i totally agree we have to stop getting players from loosing organizations. These players are used to loosing and have found no consequences come from loosing. They still get paid either way. I'm sure all players would try harder if you told them as a team they do not get paid for a game if they loose.

#18 bigchief

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Posted 20 January 2010 - 12:54 PM


I'm sure they hate to lose. However, their psyches aren't as fragile as some of the fans, and as professionals they realize that they'll lose about 30-40% of the games in an 82 game season.

No frikkin' kidding! LOL!Hilarious!



#19 bigchief

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Posted 21 January 2010 - 10:12 AM


Butter has created the psychology that it doesn't matter if we win or lose, it's how we play.

When we won early on while playing a temporary system, Butter rips into the team.
When we lose with a lack of effort, Butter rips into the team.

When we win playing Butter's way, Butter is cool about it.
When we lose playing Butter's way, Butter is cool about it.

This is interesting.



#20 iamcdn34

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Posted 21 January 2010 - 10:28 AM

DirtyDeeds">

The end result is the team is rarely given time to dwell on a poor performance. The games are packed too tightly together to stop and contemplate or even feel good about wins or bad about losing much. Preparation for the next game takes a front seat or priority.

From the reports this last loss was shown and discussed next day and the team shown where they broke down. There was no bag skates or anything, just 2 practices where there might have been 1 day of rest these last couple of days.

 Great point! The Flames can not dwell on the past, I am sure they don't forget, but they can not dwell on it like allot of fans are suggesting they do. They have to regroup and prepare for the next game. Honestly I thought they winning more games than they should have, and that there was going to be adversity this season with a new coach. At the beginning of the season I hoped the Flames would squeak into the playoffs and not be a division leader, thus not thinking they were better than they actually are with the the Division leaders status.

  




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