Louis23

Oilers

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I'm by no means arguing peeps that Mclellan is going to make an immediate turn around on that team or that he is the savoir. I'm a firm believe that coaching can only do so much to improve a team the talent has to be there. Save for a few special greats, Lombardi or Bowman for example, a good or great coach can't take an average or so/so roster and turn them into something great. I just think Mclellan is a good coach and a good hire for where the Oilers are right now. The Oilers need a coach who will stress two way play without inhibiting offence, stress accountability and start to install good habits and that's the type of coach Mclellan is. Under his leadership the Sharks always played a strong defensive game without sacrificing offence and at times he had to get super talented players like Marleau and Thornton to buy into that. I think he can do it, but by no means do I think Mclellan takes the roster he has and suddenly reaches the top but I do think the OIlers improve rapidly under his watch because I think he is a good coach.

So this begs the comparison and question?  with the 1.5+ years of Hartley being able to drastically improve the Flames does he qualify now as one of those greats?

 

What Hartley has done this season is more than most regular or good coaches could do in such a short period of time.

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So this begs the comparison and question?  with the 1.5+ years of Hartley being able to drastically improve the Flames does he qualify now as one of those greats?

 

What Hartley has done this season is more than most regular or good coaches could do in such a short period of time.

Much to small a body of work. Let's not annoint anyone @ any position too early.

As with players we see flash in the pans. If any players fall off this year or Treliving does the unthinkable & trades players because their value is at/near the apex the view of Hartley becomes much different.

Coaches can get players to buy in for the short term (hence the sudden surge we often see after a coaching change) but it's what they do during their career that is the proof.

 

Darryl Sutter took the Flames from missing the playoffs to the SCF the next year. That was after being axed by the Sharks in 2002-03 so about 1.5 years as well. Since then he has moved on & added his name to the SC twice. The 1st time as a mid-season replacement.

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So this begs the comparison and question?  with the 1.5+ years of Hartley being able to drastically improve the Flames does he qualify now as one of those greats?

 

What Hartley has done this season is more than most regular or good coaches could do in such a short period of time.

 

Too small of a sample size to make a definitive answer. Do I consider Hartley a good coach absolutely, because IMO bad coaches don't win Stanley Cups I don't care how staked your roster might be. Maybe even a great coach but an all time great? Certainly not in the Bowman/Lombardi category.

 

I don't want this to come across the wrong way because I do have great respect for Hartley and the job he did but IMO I think a dynamic at play when you look at this Flames team is to underrate the talent level on it and thus overrate the job Hartley did. People seem to suggest or argue that the Flames on paper are a bottom 5 NHL team and Hartley got them into the playoffs, where I would counter and say that on paper the Flames are probably actually a borderline playoff team that Hartley got into the playoffs.

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I really hope everyone has enjoyed the last handful of years of Oilers' incompetence. It's been fun. But it is over Flames' fans: New president, GM, Coach, McDavid... With the talent they already have, and a few tweeks here and there to improve the D, I see a future where the Battle of Alberta is going to get ugly once again and I wouldn't be surprised if it doesn't begin in 2015/16. 

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I really hope everyone has enjoyed the last handful of years of Oilers' incompetence. It's been fun. But it is over Flames' fans: New president, GM, Coach, McDavid... With the talent they already have, and a few tweeks here and there to improve the D, I see a future where the Battle of Alberta is going to get ugly once again and I wouldn't be surprised if it doesn't begin in 2015/16. 

 

LOL...... :lol:

 

How is it that they go from 3rd last (something they are good at) to being a respectable team?  They had lots of good pieces last year but somehow managed to be a laugh.  This talent you speak of?  I see a few like Hall, Nuge and Eberle that could be viewed as difference makers on a decent team, but there is not much else.  They lost their best defense and one of their top forwards. To improve, they will need to part ways with a top player or prospect.

 

The rebuild has officially begun.  I predict a few years before they get to the competing stage.

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LOL...... :lol:

 

How is it that they go from 3rd last (something they are good at) to being a respectable team?  They had lots of good pieces last year but somehow managed to be a laugh.  This talent you speak of?  I see a few like Hall, Nuge and Eberle that could be viewed as difference makers on a decent team, but there is not much else.  They lost their best defense and one of their top forwards. To improve, they will need to part ways with a top player or prospect.

 

The rebuild has officially begun.  I predict a few years before they get to the competing stage.

If all you see is three good pieces, you have Flames blindness. :wub: LOL!

The GM and Coach alone will make a huge difference.

 

McDavid will make an immediate impact and if the coach can do something with the lazy a@@es on that team like Taylor Hall and make them back-check...

 

But of course the GM won't let the team hit the 15/16 season with the crap they had on the ice last year. There will be trades... or there will be blood.

 

I look forward to the next Battle of Alberta.

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I too, look forward to the next BOA, I want both teams to do well.

 

Unfortunately, it will probably be a few years yet.

 

 

Edmonton has a new Coach, a new GM, & supposedly a new plan.

 

Fortunately, the team has some good pieces on the Forward ranks.

 

 

BUT; PC himself said there will be pain, and that patience will be required.

 

To me, that says the Oiler's 2015/2016 season will be year 1 of 5 of their Rebuild 3.0.

 

The gaping holes at #1 G and #s1 & 2 D will not likely be filled in one or two seasons.

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I too, look forward to the next BOA, I want both teams to do well.

 

Unfortunately, it will probably be a few years yet.

 

 

Edmonton has a new Coach, a new GM, & supposedly a new plan.

 

Fortunately, the team has some good pieces on the Forward ranks.

 

 

BUT; PC himself said there will be pain, and that patience will be required.

 

To me, that says the Oiler's 2015/2016 season will be year 1 of 5 of their Rebuild 3.0.

 

The gaping holes at #1 G and #s1 & 2 D will not likely be filled in one or two seasons.

I don't think the Flames started the season promising fans we'd get to the 2nd round of playoffs. So, point being, rebuilds can happen fast if the players buy in with the right coach. Oilers have spare pieces on F to trade for the gaping holes. I doubt G is one of them really if they plug in some NHL quality D. Remember Dubnyk was "terrible" also. Funny how all "great" goalies play on great teams. The Oilers are smart not promising anything. Keep expectations low. Exactly what Calgary did last year. But it doesn't mean the GM and Coach really believe that to be the case or want it to be either.

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Yes, but Calgary had two slightly above average goalies, arguably 1A & 1B.

 

The Flames Top 4 defense was one of the very best in the league prior to Giordano getting injured.

 

Fayne is probably the most dependable D on Edmonton and he is a 2nd pairing at best.

 

Don't get me wrong, I believe that Edmonton will get there, just not as soon as you believe/like.

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If all you see is three good pieces, you have Flames blindness. :wub: LOL!

The GM and Coach alone will make a huge difference.

 

McDavid will make an immediate impact and if the coach can do something with the lazy a@@es on that team like Taylor Hall and make them back-check...

 

But of course the GM won't let the team hit the 15/16 season with the crap they had on the ice last year. There will be trades... or there will be blood.

 

I look forward to the next Battle of Alberta.

 

Draisaitl couldn't even stick on the team last year, and he is a capable center, even though a little slow.  Let me know who these great players beyond the ones I named are...

 

The GM was fired for failing to get a long-standing NHL team into the playoffs.  Yes, the GM was a big reason for this.  How much rope is he going to get with a team poised to be a lotto pick in 2016?  Think he gets the OK to trade Eberle, Hall, Nuge or Yak?  Possibly Yak, but the golden boys?  The culture is rife with posers, so he needs to make bold moves.  Sounds like a big ol' rebuild to me.

 

The coach had tons of talent and failed to get them deep in the playoffs or more recently, making the playoffs.  How far is going to get a 28th place team in one year?  McDavid may have an immediate impact, but who are the other 19 players that chip in?  Do you really think McDavid will have an impact on a bottom feeder team?  Are the goals he gets in addition to the ones currently scored by the top line or is he just replacing the actual goal scorer?

 

I may be a Flames fan, but I watch many Oiler games (blech).  A new coach, GM and one draftee are not going to change 10 years of losing to win, first at the tee, sho me the money culture.

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I don't think the Flames started the season promising fans we'd get to the 2nd round of playoffs. So, point being, rebuilds can happen fast if the players buy in with the right coach. Oilers have spare pieces on F to trade for the gaping holes. I doubt G is one of them really if they plug in some NHL quality D. Remember Dubnyk was "terrible" also. Funny how all "great" goalies play on great teams. The Oilers are smart not promising anything. Keep expectations low. Exactly what Calgary did last year. But it doesn't mean the GM and Coach really believe that to be the case or want it to be either.

 

I've been thinking the same thing for a while now.  When Cammalleri was on the trading block, I was hoping we could pick up either Scrivens or Jones.  Both of them were putting up really good numbers behind Quick.  I was right in thinking one of them was trade bait.

 

The Oilers might have a fully competent goalie already.  They need to put some NHL-calibre d-men in front of him and then learn how to play hockey.

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Oilers grab Griffin Reinhart. Time will tell if this deal pays off. Hasn't looked too impressive early in his pro career but he has lots of time to develop. Honestly, any addition to Edmonton's d-core makes them a better team than before.

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Oilers grab Griffin Reinhart. Time will tell if this deal pays off. Hasn't looked too impressive early in his pro career but he has lots of time to develop. Honestly, any addition to Edmonton's d-core makes them a better team than before.

Reinhart has really seen his stock drop since he was drafted. He has statistically regressed every season after bing drafted. And from what we've seen, he probably peaks as a second pair and that's if he's not a complete bust.

LHS D. Has all the tools but not the hockey sense to put it all together.

The Oilers paid basically the same price to get Reinhart as the Flames did to get Hamilton.

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Reinhart has really seen his stock drop since he was drafted. He has statistically regressed every season after bing drafted. And from what we've seen, he probably peaks as a second pair and that's if he's not a complete bust.

LHS D. Has all the tools but not the hockey sense to put it all together.

The Oilers paid basically the same price to get Reinhart as the Flames did to get Hamilton.

 

Ex-Oil Kings are like gold to the Oilers.  A 16th and 33rd in this draft are pretty good picks to give away for an undeveloped D-man.

Considering their record for non-first overalls, though, they might have picked some dogs anyway.

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On one hand the Oilers have had a great draft. McDavid of course. Plus they got Reinhart and Talbot.

On the other hand Reinhart has been on the decline and Talbot is in his late 20s and is already talking about free agency.

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On one hand the Oilers have had a great draft. McDavid of course. Plus they got Reinhart and Talbot.

On the other hand Reinhart has been on the decline and Talbot is in his late 20s and is already talking about free agency.

 

They got the one thing they couldn't screw up.  The rest is questionable.  That many picks for two players that may not make it seems a steep price to pay.  Talbot could be a great backup/starter or he could just be a very good backup.

 

They failed in doing anything for the future.  Their draft record and prospect pool is pretty bad.  They still have no top pairing defense.  They lost Petry and a good winger.  They will need to trade someone from the core to have a reasonable shot at being anywhere but bottom 5 this year.

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They definitely needed to make this move.  Now they need to sign him.  If they can't get him signed after January 1st, then he's a relatively expensive rental.

 

I'm still not convinced that their goalie situation is as dire as it looks.  I think the goaltenders' numbers are a product of poor defensive play by the team as a whole.   I'm sure Devan Dubnyk would be inclined to agree with me.

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They definitely needed to make this move.  Now they need to sign him.  If they can't get him signed after January 1st, then he's a relatively expensive rental.

 

I'm still not convinced that their goalie situation is as dire as it looks.  I think the goaltenders' numbers are a product of poor defensive play by the team as a whole.   I'm sure Devan Dubnyk would be inclined to agree with me.

 

I agree with the part in bold, and I am NOT sure they needed to make this move.  Not do I believe it will help that much.

 

Their point of failure is defense, and until they address this, I don't believe their goaltending can even be evaluated.

 

Does Griffin address this?  Not really.

 

When they won the lottery, I was thinking it would be too hard to screw up.  But....you never know, lol

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I agree with the part in bold, and I am NOT sure they needed to make this move.  Not do I believe it will help that much.

 

Their point of failure is defense, and until they address this, I don't believe their goaltending can even be evaluated.

 

Does Griffin address this?  Not really.

 

When they won the lottery, I was thinking it would be too hard to screw up.  But....you never know, lol

 

 

As a flames fan , I take solace in the fact that PC is the guy that left Boston in Cap hell, and Traded Tyler Seguin for basically nothing . he had players who couldnt play the BOS system who thrived in other places, and brought players back in return who playerd well before getting there and died when they got there. 

yes.. he built a cup team, hes no slouch.. but he obvoiusly has a disconnect with his coaches and scouts as to what players do and dont work in the system he tries to build

While he's a huge improvement over the last regime, and they won't be a laughing stock anymore.. he definitely orcehstrated the mess that Sweeney inherited.

 on that note tho..   I think the idea of moving out Boychuk was to be able to keep Dougie.. so Sweeney is still on fast track to unemployment

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I agree with the part in bold, and I am NOT sure they needed to make this move.  Not do I believe it will help that much.

 

Their point of failure is defense, and until they address this, I don't believe their goaltending can even be evaluated.

 

Does Griffin address this?  Not really.

 

When they won the lottery, I was thinking it would be too hard to screw up.  But....you never know, lol

Like Scrivens & Fasth last year Talbot is a backup with a limited NHL resume.

 

Re: the bolded: on the Oilers board a hot topic seems to be sending Hamilton an OS.

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Like Scrivens & Fasth last year Talbot is a backup with a limited NHL resume.

 

Re: the bolded: on the Oilers board a hot topic seems to be sending Hamilton an OS.

love to see their reaction when he's already signed before the 1st :)  I got the "read between the lines" message from Treliving that they already know what its going to take and they're more than willing to do it

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love to see their reaction when he's already signed before the 1st :)  I got the "read between the lines" message from Treliving that they already know what its going to take and they're more than willing to do it

 

Honestly, I wouldn't even be to upset if we did lose him to an offer sheet and this little gem is why (from generalfanager.com)

 

"For offer sheet purposes, AAV is determined by dividing the total compensation offered by the lesser of the length of the contract, or by 5. For contracts longer than 5 years, this will result in a higher AAV than expected.

 

That means to hit 7.3mm where the compensation is 2 firsts a second and a third the cap would be:

  • 1-5 years: $7.3mm
  • 6 years: $6.1mm (7.6mm would push it to 4 firsts)
  • 7 years: $5.2mm (6.5mm would push it to 4 firsts)

Remember he is 22, so a 5 year contract brings him to his UFA year which team traditionally seem to try to avoid on longer contracts. I don't know what the Flames are thinking, but if the league called me to say someone offer sheeted him for 6.5mm, I would match it before they finished the sentence. If you are tossing an offer sheet you need to make it high enough that:

  1. The player signs it;
  2. The team is inclined to not match it, which is a lot harder to do when the team is not in cap jail.

Because of that I am pretty confident that any offer where Calgary loses him would net us at least two 1sts, a 2nd and a 3rd. I would trade one 1st and two seconds for those picks from the Oilers any day.

 

Now lets compare the trades that brought the Flames and Oilers their new shiny D.

 

  • The Flames got Hamilton, a 22 year old defenseman who put up 10 goals and 42 points in his third NHL season last year for for #15, #45, #52
  • The Oilers got Reinhart, a 21 year old defenseman who put up 7 goals and 22 points in his first season in the AHL last year (+1 assist in 9 NHL games) for #16, #33

 

So the Oilers gave up one less second for a less proven D man right? I mean, the first overalls were as close to a wash as possible, and how can you compare the "value" of #33 vs #45 and #52?

 

Well I am glad you asked. Bright and early Saturday morning the Sharks picked up #31 from the Avalanche for #39, their second in 2016 and their 6th in 2017. We don't know where it will land, but I think everyone can agree that as of today the Oilers 2nd next year is at least as valuable as the Ave's 2nd next year.

 

So in essence you could argue that the Oilers gave up #16, #39, next years 2nd, and a 6th in 2017.

 

I submit for your approval, that the Oilers in fact paid more for Reinhart then the Flames did for Hamilton. From what I have read the Oilers also offered more then the Flames did for Hamilton, but since their threat of an offersheet was meant to twist Bostons arm and force them to move him, Boston wanted a premium from the Oilers. So the Oilers helped us get him for so cheap! :lol:

 

I think I love the Oilers new management more then the old group.

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The Flames can match an offer sheet. The Oiler's could put one forward just to screw with our cap, but that will set them up as a target with every other team. They don't want a bad president set for future contract negotiations with other players. Plus, of they go too high the pick cost will be too high.

It's moot though. Chances are we sign him tomorrow.

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