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jjgallow

Joni Ortio Watch

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Case in point Backlund. Now everyone is down on him saying he hasn't reached his potential and he should be a number one center by now, when in reality that was never really his potential but he got so oversold by people on this forum and Flames fan in general that now people are discounting him for no reason. That is the danger of overselling.

Sigh, you hit the nail on the head with Backlund.

But, that was also because we really didn't have any other prospects to follow. And he is now a poster boy for how Not too develop young talent.

From a philosophical point, our problems may be that we, as the fans, are willing to pay top dollar to see aging celebrities, who were once stars, play out their careers here. Management/Ownership is simply giving the customer what they've asked for.

I'd like to see someone with an Ortio jersey on. I'd like it if we had a fan base that was knowledgeable and followed our prospects, paid money for them, and challenged management to build our prospect pool.

Back to Ortio, I don't expect consistency out of our prospects. I expect the organization to instill consistency in them. In North America, Ortio is not as good as Irving was as a 20 year old. But I don't think the story ends there. Ortio isn't from North America, and he wasn't drafted as high. What I care most about is their rate of improvement. When I see him getting two shutouts in 9 games with TPS Turkku, I consider that highly encouraging.

Iriving took the AHL by storm when he was 20, and then slumped back with no improvement for three years. Only now, he's showing the level of consistency he did when he was 20. Is Ortio the best goaltending prospect in the world? no. Is he comparable to Irving? At his stage of development, I say yes. And frankly Kipper too. That doesn't mean he'll pan out. It means that if he's developed properly, he could pan out.

My interest has more to do with a shift in management's development process than Ortio's 9 games. Management finally realized that Ortio is not from North America. He was always supposed to be with TPS Turku. He had no business being here, and that doesn't make him any less of a prospect. Time and time again, we've seen that players and goaltenders alike make the shift to North America more easily when they are older. Just look at what happened with Backlund. Then look at how Kipper turned out, after several great seasons with TPS Turku. THAT is what I'm excited about...and his first 9 games are just a re-assurance that it was the right decision.

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I'd like to see someone with an Ortio jersey on. I'd like it if we had a fan base that was knowledgeable and followed our prospects, paid money for them, and challenged management to build our prospect pool.

Your selling the fan base very short. At all the season ticket meetings, or luncheons that i've been to in the last 3 seasons (at leat one per year) talk about prospects and young players ALWAYS comes up with fans wanting to the see the Flames get younger and asking why the organization trades them. Last summer, Feaster and King got grilled repeadatly that the team was too old and not deep enough in prospects. I find that most fans just don't talk about prospcts until they are actually in a league wehre you can get a good read on how they are doing, doesn' tmean they don't know about them or are not wanting them to succeed.

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Your selling the fan base very short. At all the season ticket meetings, or luncheons that i've been to in the last 3 seasons (at leat one per year) talk about prospects and young players ALWAYS comes up with fans wanting to the see the Flames get younger and asking why the organization trades them. Last summer, Feaster and King got grilled repeadatly that the team was too old and not deep enough in prospects. I find that most fans just don't talk about prospcts until they are actually in a league wehre you can get a good read on how they are doing, doesn' tmean they don't know about them or are not wanting them to succeed.

And then they sold out all their season tickets again. Kind of a mixed message, don't you think? Which message do you think they value the most...the luncheon, or the season tickets? It's a matter of priority. People don't talk, money talks. Management will know you're serious when you stop showing up to the luncheons, and they can't sell out their season tickets.

The best thing that ever happened to this organization was when they weren't able to fill the building. That's ultimately what brought us to the 2004 Stanley cup finals.

I'd like to think it's not necessary, but with the way things are headed, it apparently is.

That all aside, I appreciate that many of the season ticket holders value our prospect pool. Just, not Enough value IMHO. When we get them, we don't even know what to do with them. We are in no position to be undervaluing Ortio. Look at the number of franchise goaltenders we've passed up over the years. Giguere, Rolosson, Vernon (won a cup After we let him go). And these are just the ones that survived us. Others had potential that we wasted.

We don't just draft bad, we develop bad. Ortio is a bright spot. No amount of Flames luncheons saved many of the NHL's other top goaltenders from getting passed over in our "system".

p.s...on a related note, you can breathe a sigh of relief...you may not see me on these boards for a few days lol :) My Shaw internet keeps cutting out. Every time it happens, I call and they send a "tech" over which basically just reboots my modem, as if it's Supposed to be that inconsistent. Not this time. I'm going to Telus, I'm cancelling Shaw, and I'm telling Shaw Exactly what my expectations are and how they didn't meet them. It's actually the kindest thing I can do for Shaw's business, who I would prefer to be with if they could get their act together.

Oh, and Shaw = Flames

Telus = Calgary Hitmen (No, NOT the Oilers, lol)

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And then they sold out all their season tickets again. Kind of a mixed message, don't you think? Which message do you think they value the most...the luncheon, or the season tickets? It's a matter of priority. People don't talk, money talks. Management will know you're serious when you stop showing up to the luncheons, and they can't sell out their season tickets.

The best thing that ever happened to this organization was when they weren't able to fill the building. That's ultimately what brought us to the 2004 Stanley cup finals.

I'd like to think it's not necessary, but with the way things are headed, it apparently is.

No not really. I don't beleive an organization is going to act in accordance to their fan base. I think that his message board is a good example the the masses are not exactly the best resource for building a club.

That all aside, I appreciate that many of the season ticket holders value our prospect pool. Just, not Enough value IMHO. When we get them, we don't even know what to do with them. We are in no position to be undervaluing Ortio. Look at the number of franchise goaltenders we've passed up over the years. Giguere, Rolosson, Vernon (won a cup After we let him go). And these are just the ones that survived us. Others had potential that we wasted.

We don't just draft bad, we develop bad. Ortio is a bright spot. No amount of Flames luncheons saved many of the NHL's other top goaltenders from getting passed over in our "system".

For one, I'm not really sure what your point is here. You seem to be inferring that Flames fans sould pay more attention to their prospects so the organization develops them better? That doesn't make any sense, and again orgnaiztion is not going to listen to its fans on how they develop prospects.

In terms of Jiggy, he was traded because the Flames were about to lose him on the waiver draft so they got something for him instead of having him walk for nothing it was not something they wanted to do but at the time Freddy Brathwaite was playing very well, and JIggy wasn't.

Roloson is not a franchise goalie and I don't think letting him go was a mistake at all.

Vernon was traded because of salary demands and constraints. The Flames could not afford him anymore with the rising costs of salaries at the time. And let's remember this is the organization that gave Kipper his shot when he was about to head back to Europe.

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No not really. I don't beleive an organization is going to act in accordance to their fan base. I think that his message board is a good example the the masses are not exactly the best resource for building a club.

They will react to ticket sales. I'm quite sure.

For one, I'm not really sure what your point is here. You seem to be inferring that Flames fans sould pay more attention to their prospects so the organization develops them better? That doesn't make any sense, and again orgnaiztion is not going to listen to its fans on how they develop prospects.

Or develops them at all. Again, they will listen to ticket sales. They'll listen to revenue.

They ... Always.. listen to revenue.

I'm not saying that anything on this thread will actually Make a difference. I am saying that, in theory, threads on prospects should be encouraged, and mindless, ongoing debates about aging veterans should NOT be encouraged.

Does it matter? Probably not much on these forums does. It's a point of principal.

In terms of Jiggy, he was traded because the Flames were about to lose him on the waiver draft so they got something for him instead of having him walk for nothing it was not something they wanted to do but at the time Freddy Brathwaite was playing very well, and JIggy wasn't.

Roloson is not a franchise goalie and I don't think letting him go was a mistake at all.

Vernon was traded because of salary demands and constraints. The Flames could not afford him anymore with the rising costs of salaries at the time. And let's remember this is the organization that gave Kipper his shot when he was about to head back to Europe.

You look what Rolosson did in the playoffs with the 06 Oilers and then the 2011 Lightning...that's literally what Kipper did for us on 2004. But Rolosson did it twice. He's 42, and a lot of scouts Still have him ranked higher than Kipper. I'm not saying they're right, but he is a franchise goaltender. end of story.

You made your case for Jiggy, but I think you know yourself that there's no good excuse for that. Jiggy has a cup, and we don't. Jiggy IS comparable to Kipper. He's had more success than Kipper. We gave him up, and the excuses don't fly. They salary talk is another way of saying that we didn't know how to evaluate our own players. Giguere was almost impossible to miss for anyone who was paying attention at the time. LOOK what he did in the AHL. Look at how we bounced him around and mismanaged him. Look at how Easily we lost faith in him.

You tell me I'm using only a small number of games to get excited over Ortio. You forget to mention that you are basing your judgement on one, possibly two AHL games (his very first two) where he stunk. To me, that is a double-standard. An incorrect double-standard that shows we have learned nothing from our past goaltending failures.

Kipper: Amazing goaltender. Cups? Zero. Overplayed? Yes.

Giguere: Cup Winner.

Kipper/Giguere tandem: Dynasty. Or, you trade one of them for a top centre.

Not okay. Not even a little bit okay, and the excuses don't cut it.

So YES, I get more excited over Ortio's shutouts than his first two AHL flops. Why? Because I've Seen this before and I am Tired of this organization evaluating prospects by their worst performance and passing them off to teams that know how to evaluate them by their Best performance.

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You look what Rolosson did in the playoffs with the 06 Oilers and then the 2011 Lightning...that's literally what Kipper did for us on 2004. But Rolosson did it twice. He's 42, and a lot of scouts Still have him ranked higher than Kipper. I'm not saying they're right, but he is a franchise goaltender. end of story.

You made your case for Jiggy, but I think you know yourself that there's no good excuse for that. Jiggy has a cup, and we don't. Jiggy IS comparable to Kipper. He's had more success than Kipper. We gave him up, and the excuses don't fly. They salary talk is another way of saying that we didn't know how to evaluate our own players. Giguere was almost impossible to miss for anyone who was paying attention at the time. LOOK what he did in the AHL. Look at how we bounced him around and mismanaged him. Look at how Easily we lost faith in him.

You tell me I'm using only a small number of games to get excited over Ortio. You forget to mention that you are basing your judgement on one, possibly two AHL games (his very first two) where he stunk. To me, that is a double-standard. An incorrect double-standard that shows we have learned nothing from our past goaltending failures.

Kipper: Amazing goaltender. Cups? Zero. Overplayed? Yes.

Giguere: Cup Winner.

Kipper/Giguere tandem: Dynasty. Or, you trade one of them for a top centre.

Not okay. Not even a little bit okay, and the excuses don't cut it.

So YES, I get more excited over Ortio's shutouts than his first two AHL flops. Why? Because I've Seen this before and I am Tired of this organization evaluating prospects by their worst performance and passing them off to teams that know how to evaluate them by their Best performance.

I can see that you're trying to make a point here, but....really? Kipper's a better goalie and is YOUNGER than Roloson, and that's a rarity nowadays in the NHL. Roloson at his peak wasn't even near Kipper. Now I'm really curious to see whether you actually hear scouts say that or are assuming that in a world full of thousands of scouts, maybe one of them thinks that Rollie is better than Kipps.

Giguere left during a time when we had no money but he wanted big bucks. For what he was doing, he simply did not deserve what he was asking for. Had he had a possibility of becoming a bigshot? Sure. But we've seen how many prospects in net fail around the league? Hannu Toivonen used to be a "franchise" netminder and Boston's future in goal. Same with Marek Schwarz in St. Loo. Giguere was by no means a surefire bet to be a starter (his improvement came by one Francois Allaire. May want to check up on him, although if you trawl through the Leafs forums you'll likely find a number of people calling for his head), but he wanted to be paid like one, and the Flames didn't have the money for it. In an alternate universe somewhere, we signed Giguere and he proceeded to bust.

We didn't lose faith in him, we just couldn't afford him. It's easy to look back now and say we gave up on him, but obviously you didn't take into account the fact that the Canadian Dollar was at 70 cents. If we're paying him 2.5 M in US dollars (prerequisite for contracts to be in US) that would have worked out to 3.6 M C for a guy who has been outplayed by another goalie. Yikes. Not saying that's what he asked for, but that was the kind of scenario for EVERY canadian team back in the day not named Leafs or Canadiens.

Once again, I like having Ortio and I like seeing him do good. But we've gotten up for a lot of guys beforehand (McElhinney and Krahn for two) and they proceeded to underwhelm for the rest of their careers. He is getting great stats on wider ice surrounded by a team he's played for his whole life. Great, nice job. Now do the same in a brand new culture, in a brand new city, 4000 KM away from home.

Until he proves me wrong, I'm going to remain in the skeptical category. The reason we wanted him in the A is because it's a closer style of play to the NHL than Finnish hockey. It sucks that he didn't get much icetime before he was shipped back, but it's the growing pains he'll have to go through in order to get to that Kipper level. Even Miikka didn't bail out after half a season.

And actually, this makes it harder for him to reach his NHL potential. He's doing great in a comfortable environment getting plenty of ice time as well as a guaranteed job. Whereas over here he played what, two games? And stunk in both games. He obviously thrives in his own comfort level, so why would he give that up for a shot at playing for peanuts in the A behind AHL contract starters?

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You tell me I'm using only a small number of games to get excited over Ortio. You forget to mention that you are basing your judgement on one, possibly two AHL games (his very first two) where he stunk. To me, that is a double-standard. An incorrect double-standard that shows we have learned nothing from our past goaltending failures.

Kipper: Amazing goaltender. Cups? Zero. Overplayed? Yes.

Giguere: Cup Winner.

Kipper/Giguere tandem: Dynasty. Or, you trade one of them for a top centre.

Not okay. Not even a little bit okay, and the excuses don't cut it.

So YES, I get more excited over Ortio's shutouts than his first two AHL flops. Why? Because I've Seen this before and I am Tired of this organization evaluating prospects by their worst performance and passing them off to teams that know how to evaluate them by their Best performance.

I have never said that. In fact I have never even given you my opinion of Ortio other than to say he is a solid prospect. Rigth now, I can't project him to the NHL becuase he has a lot of work to do. he has the raw talent to do so but he needs a lot of fine tuning to be considerd an legitimate NHL prospect. Right now he is a prospect and a prospect worth watching, but one with a fair amount of work to be done which is why I'm happy he has gone back to Finland.

You clearly won't listen to any reasons so I won't bother going through that again.

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I have never said that. In fact I have never even given you my opinion of Ortio other than to say he is a solid prospect. Rigth now, I can't project him to the NHL becuase he has a lot of work to do. he has the raw talent to do so but he needs a lot of fine tuning to be considerd an legitimate NHL prospect. Right now he is a prospect and a prospect worth watching, but one with a fair amount of work to be done which is why I'm happy he has gone back to Finland.

You clearly won't listen to any reasons so I won't bother going through that again.

we agree to disgree. Looks like that's as close as we'll meet on this one.

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Just an update on Ortio, he's played 11 games in Smliiga, all consecutive starts, he has 3 wins, 2.44GAA, 91.61SV% and 2 shutouts. From @TMrjmki on Twitter (he covers Ortio from Finland).

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Really strong start this year:

5th overall best Save Percentage in the league right now:

http://www.sm-liiga.fi/tilastot/kokonaan.html?l=m_torjuntaprosentti&b=rs&s=12-13

He's two years younger than the youngest guy above him...he's essentially the best goalie prospect in the league.

This is shaping up to be his best year.

He's still highly-inconsistent. He has Three shutouts so far this year (in his first 12 games).

The reason he's not first in the league is because he's also been completely blown out a couple times.

At that age, I think you have to look at his shutouts more than the blowouts. His potential is very high.

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Really strong start this year:

5th 8th overall best Save Percentage in the league right now:

http://www.sm-liiga....ti&b=rs&s=12-13

He's two years younger than the youngest guy above him...he's Mikko Koskinen is

essentially the best goalie prospect in the league.

This is shaping up to be his best year.

He's still highly-inconsistent. He has Three two shutouts so far this year (in his first 12 13 games).

The reason he's not first in the league is because he's also been completely blown out a couple times. (Allowed 6 goals ONCE in a game while making 46 saves as well, other than that he hasn't allowed more then 4 goals in a game.)

At that age, I think you have to look at his shutouts more than the blowouts. His potential is very high moderate.

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What's the matter with you, dude?

Obviously his ranking will change as he plays more games.

When I posted, only 12 games had been updated in his stats.

Then they added the 13th game, and you correct all my comments because of it?

He just played a 14th game. Should we correct all your comments?

And imposing your definition of blowout? Like you are the blowout authority?

It would be one thing if you came in and said you disagree with him being the top prospect in that league. To just state that Koshkinen takes that title...is just, weird.

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lol...hostile much?

Wasn't trying to rain on your parade, but your rose colored glasses were over selling the situation.

You posted the original comment TODAY. And at the time of your posting, Ortio had played 13 games along with TWO shutouts. At the time of this posting, NOTHING has changed. He HASN'T played 14 games. TODAY, is an off day. Next games don't resume until Tuesday in that league so I don't know where you get the idea he has played 14 games????

He is NOT the biggest goalie prospect in that league and is middle of the road, that he will ever even become an NHL back-up.

Although, I wish him the best, and would love to see him surprise. It is highly unlikely.

Something tells me that back in the day, you thought Kris Chucko was gonna be the next Gretzky. Maybe that's a stretch. But Ortio has a LONG way to go, but the good news he is still young. Maybe in 5 years. Maybe in 5 years. Who knows?

Oh, and as for "blowout authority"... stick it up your blowhole. lol, jk

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Next games don't resume until Tuesday in that league so I don't know where you get the idea he has played 14 games????

You got me on a bad day, sorry. You're clearly wrong:

http://www.sm-liiga.fi/pelaajat/12-13/hifk/ortio-joni/ottelu-ottelulta.html

But whatever, lol. Fine...I can pretend he's played 13 games. You're right. I'm wrong.

And his potential is moderate. And Koskinen is the top prospect...I give up.

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Ortio's Torjuntaprosentti was a little rough a couple of games...

But he's doing just fine other than that...

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You got me on a bad day, sorry. You're clearly wrong:

http://www.sm-liiga....-ottelulta.html

But whatever, lol. Fine...I can pretend he's played 13 games. You're right. I'm wrong.

And his potential is moderate. And Koskinen is the top prospect...I give up.

lmfao you are belligerent!!! Can you clearly NOT see he didn't play Sept. 22nd/12???

Do the math bud,

SERIOUSLY!

This convo is DONE!!!!

He is a 4th tier prospect that hopefully lives up to the prospect name, but chances are,,,

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you caught me on a bad day. Fine, you're right, he didn't start for one of those games.

Not that that changes anything, because we were originally talking about your need to provide "corrections" on game 13, after I posted a quick, simple summary at game 12 which by all accounts could have just stayed that way.

But fine...you're right fourth-tier for sure.

And this Mikko Koskinen guy...best prospect in the league by far. Sure, his Goals against is 2.82 in the AHL. Sure, the guy is 24 years old.

Ortio's Goals against in the AHL is 2.94, so obviously he is Much worse, even though he was 19 years old when he did it.

What a dud...my mistake.

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For what it is worth Peter Maher mentioned on the radio how great a start Ortio has had this season. He was talking about some of our prospects when he dropped that tidbit.

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Almost got Another shutout last night...

By all rights Tawdge, I should return the favour and edit all your comments as he's played 15 games now.

Since Mikko Koskinen is apparently the greatest prospect in the league, we should be happy that Ortio (three years younger) Continues to be ahead of him in ranking (6th overall for Ortio, 8th for Koskinen, by save percentage). That also puts Ortio ahead of basically all young prospects in the league.

http://www.sm-liiga.fi/tilastot/kokonaan.html?l=m_torjuntaprosentti&b=rs&s=12-13

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From an HIFK fan's point of view

Ortio is the real deal. A beast of a 21 year old.

The rest of the team has had a real navajo fry bread season, no one has any clue what they're doing, the coach is a rookie who was thrown into the fray too early because the previous one bailed out to Russia a month before the season began. Ortio has single-handedly won several matches for us despite the guys in front of him being utter garbage.

His first 4 games or so were a bit shaky, I think his lack of match fitness was showing, but now he's playing practically every match and it seems to be doing wonders for him.

I had honestly never seen him play before he joined us this season, but right now I have no doubt he'll make a good NHL goalie yet.

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Thanks for the update wloff, that's great news!

He didn't have a very good training camp here either, so we weren't surprised when he got off to a rough start. Glad to hear he's making a difference for HIFK...I hope he has many more shutouts left in him this season :)

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Update....came darned near close to getting two more shutouts..

Now 6th best in the league, with nobody above him playing more minutes.

Also, he is a minimum of two years younger than anyone above him in the league.

http://www.sm-liiga.fi/tilastot/kokonaan.html?l=m_torjuntaprosentti&b=rs&s=12-13

ps...

Koskinen (three years older) is currently 10th overall and consistently Not making as many saves as Ortio. But, we all apparently know Koskinen to be the better prospect, so don't get your hopes up with Ortio.

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I'll be the first to admit that I kinda gave up on Ortio. Goaltenders are so hard to predict with their development. Its great to see Ortio playing so well, and regaining some value as a prospect.

Thanks for the updates jjgallow... Keep them coming.

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Another shutout last night...5th in the league now. Koskinen, who we all know is the greatest prospect in that league, is holding steady at 10th overall.

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