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jjgallow

Joni Ortio Watch

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Anyway, Ortio and Berra will most likely be like Taylor and Brust, splitting the starts. Unless Joey Mac is traded, Berra will most likely be on the Heat for some/most/all of the year.

 

Like Taylor and Brust, who both left for Europe/Russia the following year?

 

Unfortunately, I agree with the comparison.

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Like Taylor and Brust, who both left for Europe/Russia the following year?

 

Unfortunately, I agree with the comparison.

 

Taylor and Brust left for Europe because the Flames made the (right) decision not to retain them. 

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Taylor and Brust left for Europe because the Flames made the (right) decision not to retain them. 

sigh....I give up.  for now.   If I didn't have so much dignity and great character, this would be one of those posts I flag to revisit a year from now.  But I won't, because I'll be too busy on the Oilers thread, right?

 

.....as a small correction:   Brust is in the KHL.

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Nobody thinks of the KHL as European, but thanks for the geography tip lol.

 

Ortio....He's played his first AHL game this year and did Not fall apart.

http://www.abbotsfordheat.com/news/?article_id=567

 

Somehow, I'm still optimistic it will all work out for him this year.  But it's not going to work out well for all the Flames' goalies.  At least one is going to get the short end of the stick.

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Sorry, I don't want to continue to whip this horse's bluddy mangled corpse, but who is this "nobody" that doesn't think Russia and the KHL is part of Europe?  It's the first time I've ever heard that sentiment.  I think suggesting that "nobody thinks of the KHL as European" is disingenuous and kinda of a weird thing to say.

 

Back to the topic:  I think the NHL goalies are basically set now.  Ramo and MacDonald look to be the two goalies, in that order.  Berra will get the best opportunity to start in Abbottsford.  Meaning, there is only one spot in Abbottsford for Ortio or Brossoit, unless they decide to keep three goalies like they did last season (which was a mistake in my opinion).  So, either Ortio or Brossoit is going to be either the backup in Abbottsford or the 1B goalie while the other is either loaned to another AHL team or sent to Alaska in the ECHL.  Either way, it's not ideal and it will likely hurt the development of one of these guys.  Considering that Ortio is older, my guess is that the Flames brass will give Brossoit a better opportunity.  So, I think Joni has a steep uphill climb ahead of him.

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Sorry, I don't want to continue to whip this horse's bluddy mangled corpse, but who is this "nobody" that doesn't think Russia and the KHL is part of Europe?  It's the first time I've ever heard that sentiment.  I think suggesting that "nobody thinks of the KHL as European" is disingenuous and kinda of a weird thing to say.

 

omg I am so sorry I corrected anyone on this.  The KHL, Russia, all European.  whatever.  fine.  my bad.

 

Technically, you're right.   For many parts of Russia and many parts of the KHL.

 

Just like, the Flames are American.  Technically.  

 

So, we're American, the KHL is European....and whatever.

 

If you want to take it further, you can enter a correction in wikipedia and see how it goes:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ice_hockey_leagues#Europe

 

 

Back to the topic:  I think the NHL goalies are basically set now.  Ramo and MacDonald look to be the two goalies, in that order.  Berra will get the best opportunity to start in Abbottsford.  Meaning, there is only one spot in Abbottsford for Ortio or Brossoit, unless they decide to keep three goalies like they did last season (which was a mistake in my opinion).  So, either Ortio or Brossoit is going to be either the backup in Abbottsford or the 1B goalie while the other is either loaned to another AHL team or sent to Alaska in the ECHL.  Either way, it's not ideal and it will likely hurt the development of one of these guys.  Considering that Ortio is older, my guess is that the Flames brass will give Brossoit a better opportunity.  So, I think Joni has a steep uphill climb ahead of him.

 

Ramo had a good game tonight.   If he has another ten like that in the regular season, I may have to take a lot of things back.

 

I don't see him as above Jmac at all, but it's irrelevant at this stage.

 

I agree with you, Ramo is the most likely to stay with the Flames, but it's got little to do with his performance and a lot to do with his massive contract.

 

Which, of course, puts Berra in the AHL unless he opts to go back home.  And he might.

 

Ortio is much better than Broissoit imho.   At least, at this stage, and adjusted for age.

 

But if Reto's in the AHL, Neither of them will get a development opportunity with the Heat.  Don't be surprised if both scram.

 

Someobody's going to get the short end of the stick, it would be a shame if it were Ortio.

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Ramo had a good game tonight.   If he has another ten like that in the regular season, I may have to take a lot of things back.

 

Weren't you the guy putting up told you so JPGs because Ortio played well in a single prospects game!

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Weren't you the guy putting up told you so JPGs because Ortio played well in a single prospects game!

 

Yes, and I stand by it.   :)

 

I never had any illusions about Ortio playing the NHL this year, I'm very impressed with how Ortio performed with the extremely limited showing the Flames gave him.  I maintain that it was much better than many predicted.  And he has continued to show this in the AHL as well.

 

Ramo, on the other hand, has played better than I expected.  But I never put an "I told you so" picture up for him....because I wouldn't do that over something negative.

 

So, what I'm trying to say is that I'm still in the clear, and the reason for that is not because I'm always right.  The reason I'm in the clear is because there was never any mal-intent.     Does that make sense?

 

hEAC430E6.jpg

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Well, it's day one of Joni Ortio's development being stunted.

 

http://www.cleveland.com/monsters/index.ssf/2013/10/lake_erie_monsters_play_abbots.html

 

Reto Berra played well in their opening night.  My understanding is that Ortio "WON" the battle for backup agasint Brossoit, but somehow I feel that Brossoit was the real winner, as he will actually get to goaltend this year.

 

It's really unfortuante, imho.    Ortio was not the guy that should have been the odd man out.

 

I'm still hoping that the Flames might lend him out to a different AHL team, or send him back to Finland, or let him split games with Berra.

 

The problem, of course, is that Reto is admittedly better than Joni, with 6 years of development separating them, and Reto in his prime.   That doesn't change the fact that Ortio is already good enough to be an AHL starter and could easily surpass Reto if given playing time.

 

If I were to guess, I still believe the most likely outcome is that Ramo goes back to Russia, and Berra comes back to the Flames.  But even then, half the season will be over before the Flames make a move that drastic.

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Just me replying to myself on this lonely Ortio diary lol...

 

Reto Berra, so far, is not looking spectacular in the AHL.    Just lost 3-2 the other night on 33 shots.

 

Not bad, but definitely doesn't look like we've been forced to send our 2nd NHL starter down there.

 

Next weekend, we have back-to-back games against the admirals.  Seems like Ortio might get a shot.  I'm hoping he surprises....

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Just me replying to myself on this lonely Ortio diary lol...

 

Reto Berra, so far, is not looking spectacular in the AHL.    Just lost 3-2 the other night on 33 shots.

 

Not bad, but definitely doesn't look like we've been forced to send our 2nd NHL starter down there.

 

Next weekend, we have back-to-back games against the admirals.  Seems like Ortio might get a shot.  I'm hoping he surprises....

JJ, I hate to say this, but the only way Ortio takes over #1 on the Heat is when JoeyMac is traded/waiver claimed/demoted and Berra is 1b on the Flames.  I think the Flames feel he could battle for #1 on the Flames, which is why he is going to play a lot of Heat games.  Ortio is the bridesmaid until then. :(

 

Or as Bugs Bunny would say..."Boo hoo hoo, always a bridesmaid, never a bride, Boo hoo hoo."

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If Berra goes all season without giving Ortio a chance to take the starters position than that is great for us.  But chances are Ortio will have a window or three to take the job.  It will be up to him to take it.  This is no different than any team that doesn't have a starter.  

 

We saw Brust tear the spot away from Taylor last season.  We saw Taylor grab it back.  

 

Ortio may be starting as the back-up.  But two games in I think it is a bit premature to allocate him as the permanent back-up who will never get his shot.   

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I don't think his development is ruined as a backup, reality is the Flames minor system has throughout split the load decently with the exceptions of Irving and McElhinney no other goalie has played 60 or more games in a season.  Ward as head coach has shown that he'll ride the hot hand, saw it 2 years ago when Irving got called up and Taylor went on a run, and when Irving got back couldn't get his old job back, and last year as kehatch pointed out with Brust and Taylor.  The team isn't on a plan to ruin Ortio, but they don't want to rely solely on a 7th round pick who previously struggled in the NA game.  This is what competition does, and this is what the organization has been missing for a really long time.

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I'm not sure that it's fair to compare Brust, Taylor, Irving, etc, as 26-29 year-olds, to Ortio at 22.

 

I will admit that, unless Ortio goes on an unusual hot streak and Berra has a rough patch, Berra is the better goaltender at this stage in his career.   But I think we're dreaming if we expect him to be a good NHL starter, or NHL backup.

 

I think it's unfortunate that we're leaving Ortio's development to chance.  Berra hasn't actually been playing that well, contrary some of the media reports.   Ramo's future is uncertain too.  So Ortio may still get his chance.   But I don't like it.

 

There's a Ben Walter thread on here, where I was on the other side of this arguement.   

 

The difference, really, is that I don't honestly believe we are developing any top-6 centers in the AHL right now.   So I don't understand that particular move.   

 

In this case, I believe Ortio still projects as a starting NHL goaltender, with a very high ceiling.   Berra, on the other hand, is unlikely to establish himself as an NHL backup.   

 

I don't think this has to do with "competition".    I'm just projecting our prospects differently.   And from how I rate them, what I see makes no sense and is unfortunate.

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 they don't want to rely solely on a 7th round pick 

 

Sorry to take this quote out of context....just on another note:

 

He may be a 6th round pick (no more 7ths), but some of the Flame's greatest players of all time, and the NHL's, for that matter, were taken in the later or last rounds.  Or undrafted altogether.  Wherever he was picked....IF he is given a chance this year in the AHL, and I don't just mean one game....I think he is going to Shock a lot of people.

 

That is why, in general, I get nervous when we give up later-round picks for bottom-6 or AHL talent.

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I'm not sure that it's fair to compare Brust, Taylor, Irving, etc, as 26-29 year-olds, to Ortio at 22.

 

I will admit that, unless Ortio goes on an unusual hot streak and Berra has a rough patch, Berra is the better goaltender at this stage in his career.   But I think we're dreaming if we expect him to be a good NHL starter, or NHL backup.

 

I think it's unfortunate that we're leaving Ortio's development to chance.  Berra hasn't actually been playing that well, contrary some of the media reports.   Ramo's future is uncertain too.  So Ortio may still get his chance.   But I don't like it.

 

There's a Ben Walter thread on here, where I was on the other side of this arguement.   

 

The difference, really, is that I don't honestly believe we are developing any top-6 centers in the AHL right now.   So I don't understand that particular move.   

 

In this case, I believe Ortio still projects as a starting NHL goaltender, with a very high ceiling.   Berra, on the other hand, is unlikely to establish himself as an NHL backup.   

 

I don't think this has to do with "competition".    I'm just projecting our prospects differently.   And from how I rate them, what I see makes no sense and is unfortunate.

 

I don't think anyone disagrees with the concept.  Personally, like you suggest, I disagree with your projections.  

 

I don't agree that Berra doesn't have NHL potential.  I don't agree that Walter does have NHL potential.  I disagree that Ortio projects more strongly as an NHL starter than Knight and Granlund project as top 6C. I think the idea they should have kept Walter and not acquired Berra is flawed.  

 

I also disagree that Ortio's development is being hampered.  I don't think having a 22 year old goalie earn progressive starts in the AHL is a bad thing.  If we are in January and he isn't getting starts that he has earned I might be concerned.  But I am not right now. 

 

Don't get me wrong.  I think Berra is a long shot for the NHL.  I think Granlund is as well.  I think Knight will be an NHLer, but more likely in the bottom 6.  That is the way it goes with all but the best prospects.  But I also think that Ortio is a long shot to being an NHL goalie and I don't think he is necessarily being developed poorly or has been put in a situation where he is unable to reasonably earn starts.

 

I actually do agree that Ortio projects to have a higher ceiling than Berra.  I just don't agree that should mean guaranteed starts as a 22-year old or that they should put all of their eggs in the Ortio basket.  

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I'm not sure that it's fair to compare Brust, Taylor, Irving, etc, as 26-29 year-olds, to Ortio at 22.

 

I will admit that, unless Ortio goes on an unusual hot streak and Berra has a rough patch, Berra is the better goaltender at this stage in his career.   But I think we're dreaming if we expect him to be a good NHL starter, or NHL backup.

 

I think it's unfortunate that we're leaving Ortio's development to chance.  Berra hasn't actually been playing that well, contrary some of the media reports.   Ramo's future is uncertain too.  So Ortio may still get his chance.   But I don't like it.

 

There's a Ben Walter thread on here, where I was on the other side of this arguement.   

 

The difference, really, is that I don't honestly believe we are developing any top-6 centers in the AHL right now.   So I don't understand that particular move.   

 

In this case, I believe Ortio still projects as a starting NHL goaltender, with a very high ceiling.   Berra, on the other hand, is unlikely to establish himself as an NHL backup.   

 

I don't think this has to do with "competition".    I'm just projecting our prospects differently.   And from how I rate them, what I see makes no sense and is unfortunate.

 

 

I'm not sure that it's fair to compare Brust, Taylor, Irving, etc, as 26-29 year-olds, to Ortio at 22.

 

I will admit that, unless Ortio goes on an unusual hot streak and Berra has a rough patch, Berra is the better goaltender at this stage in his career.   But I think we're dreaming if we expect him to be a good NHL starter, or NHL backup.

 

I think it's unfortunate that we're leaving Ortio's development to chance.  Berra hasn't actually been playing that well, contrary some of the media reports.   Ramo's future is uncertain too.  So Ortio may still get his chance.   But I don't like it.

 

There's a Ben Walter thread on here, where I was on the other side of this arguement.   

 

The difference, really, is that I don't honestly believe we are developing any top-6 centers in the AHL right now.   So I don't understand that particular move.   

 

In this case, I believe Ortio still projects as a starting NHL goaltender, with a very high ceiling.   Berra, on the other hand, is unlikely to establish himself as an NHL backup.   

 

I don't think this has to do with "competition".    I'm just projecting our prospects differently.   And from how I rate them, what I see makes no sense and is unfortunate.

 

You see things one way and that's fine, I hope your right and Ortio becomes a legend, but I'm also hopeful Berra does too.  Maybe I'm overly optimistic, but I don't believe there is an exact book or science to developing goalies, I think they need three things 1. physical ability 2. mental ability and 3. coaching.  Imo there is a reason some teams can have goalies establish themselves in the NHL (think Dallas late '90's, SJ late '90's and Anaheim early part of this century) and others can't like Tampa, Edmonton and of course our beloved Flames to name a few, and I think a part of that is how they are coached when they enter the system.  Also factor in goalies develop differently all together, keep in mind Kipper came to us out of SJ's press box only to have the greatest season in net in Flames history.  Also a pretty good goalie in Halak spent much of his early career as a backup in the minors.  

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Surprised that nobody has brought up the fact that Brossoit was recalled from Alaska to the Heat and that Ortio was assigned to Alaska from the Heat... not sure if I'm missing something but I'm not sure I understand why this was done. Is it because they want Ortio playing games and would rather have Brossoit backing up or what?

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from all accounts it sounds like that is the plan, yes - and it makes sense

 

it sounds like they intend on rotating the two back and forth for the foreseeable future

 

they want to get games in (in Alaska) as well as get some coaching in (in Abbottsford) for both of them

 

as long as Berra is playing well and getting the lion's share office-time in Abby, expect this to continue

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Surprised that nobody has brought up the fact that Brossoit was recalled from Alaska to the Heat and that Ortio was assigned to Alaska from the Heat... not sure if I'm missing something but I'm not sure I understand why this was done. Is it because they want Ortio playing games and would rather have Brossoit backing up or what?

Think about it this way.

 

On the Flames there are 3 goalies in the running for top spot.

1. JMac

2. K. Ramo

3. R. Berra

 

They do not want to carry 3 here so sent Berra down to Heat for playing time. As well they can't send down JMac to Heat because he would have to clear waivers.

 

Now think of a similar situation on the Heat. 3 goalies all in the running for Heat playing time.

 

1. R. Berra

2. Joni Ortio

3. Laurent Brossoit

 

Again they do not want to carry 3 goalies and 1 goalie(Berra) they do not want to send down(ECHL)

 

I remember Feaster made mention that Goaltending was the one position that a player can hop from the ECHL directly to the NHL, not so with other positions. I think that was during the announcement of the affiliation change to Alaska.

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Okay, I see. Seems like they are making the best out of the crappy goalie logjam we are left with. Hopefully Ramo can prove himself to be a capable starter, and Berra does well in the AHL. That would allow for us to move Joey near the deadline and bring Berra up. Ortio and Brossoit could then either share starts in the AHL, or alternate between Alaska and Abbotsford.

 

I wonder how often they will be switching Ortio and Brossoit between Abby and Alaska, would suck to be making that flight all the time :P

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I can't believe it's come to this, but I am now eagerly tracking down ECHL scoresheets, lol.

 

Ortio had his first game of the year yesterday.  Let in a couple goals in the  first period, then played two periods of shutout hockey.

 

Nothing surprising....the first period goes to show what happens when goalies are not developed and not given playing time.

 

The next two periods are more what I'd expect of Ortio in the ECHL.

 

Brossoit really struggled while he was there.   Ortio plays again today, hoping he can be exceptional.

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