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Flames 2012-2013 Roster Starting Point


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#1 FlamesLogic

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Posted 11 April 2012 - 11:51 AM

This is where we currently stand in terms of committed contracts and RFA's that will be at least qualified

Tanguay - OPEN - Iginla
Glencross - Backlund (RFA) - OPEN
Cammilleri - Stajan - OPEN
Jackman - Horak (2way) - Jones (RFA)
Bouma (2way) - OPEN

Bouwmeester - Butler
Giordano - Brodie
Babchuk - Smith
OPEN

Players that are gone and very unlikely to be back on the roster:
Sarich UFA, Stempniak UFA, Hannan UFA
Players unlikely to be resigned but may resurface:
Moss UFA, TKO UFA, Comeau (RFA but his qualifying offer is expensive)
Players that are not signed but may return:
Jokinen

The Flames have 3 starting line up spots up for consideration: 1 C, 2 W
The also have 2 reserve spots up for consideration 1F, 1D

Assumptions:
1) Backlund will be qualified/signed somewhere around his current cap hit of 1.271 (rounded to 1.3). If simply qualified his cap hit is around 900k.
2) Jones will be qualified for 1 year and this gives him a cap hit of 580k
3) Horak is on a 2 way contract but considering he spent most of last year in the NHL the same can likely be assumed for next year.
4) Bouma is likely in a similar boat to Horak.

*****************************END OF CURRENT STATE******************************

Moves I think the Flames should do:
1) Resign Jokinen - estimated cap hit is 5M. May be able to get this lower if we offer longer term.
2) One of Baertschi (skill) or Aliu (size) will make the roster out of camp and claim the 3rd line W spot.
3) One of Aliu or TKO will take the 4th line W spot (moving Jackman to reserve) or reserve spot.
4) Promote an AHL dman for the reserve dman spot. (Connelly, Carson, Wilson, etc). This is likely enough that it should almost be an assumption.
5) This leaves the 2nd line RW spot up for question. I think this is where Feaster really needs to go hard after offensive FA's if he wants to transform this team and make them better. We do have the cap space available assuming no cap increase to pay a player 7M. Feaster may also be able to use the carrot of getting Jokinen a high end line mate to drive Jokinens cap hit down as well but we cant assume that.
The idea is to replace Moss (a 40 pt player when healthy) with a guy that can be a 60pt or better player. There are only 2 major contenders that can do that: Semin and Parise.
There are other players like Hedjuk, Boyes, Huselius, etc that can likely give us more offensive punch than Moss but its not as much of a step up and they all have their own warts.
With Semin its possible that we can pay alot on a very short term (1-2 year) prove it contract. That said Semin is a plan B as the real gem here is Parise. Perhaps one thing going in our favour if we extend Butter is that Parise had his career high 94 pts under him in 08-09.
The real question is will be able to put enough money on the table to attract him. New Jersey doesnt have alot of cap space of their own to play with either and they may be forced to walk away if talks start to look at a cap hit of 9M (note: Crosby and Malkin are 8.7, Ovechkin is 9, so I think this is the ceiling) which is where I think we will need to be to get Parise.

Considerations:
Im not a believer that players simply lose skill as they get older. What I do think they lose is the bounce back ability. What we saw when the Flames were on in March was a) yes the young players came in and made an impact but B) Butter was playing the crap out of his vets. Its entirely possible that a major factor to the drop off at the end was due to a compressed schedule and them losing their legs.
What I think we need to do as our core gets older and I think Feaster is of similar mind is to overload on high end game changer players. Let our older vets play less minutes to increase their quality of play. While you have one line play 20 minutes ATOI one game, shift them to say 14-15mins the next or average them out at 17. To do this you need to have multiple high end players. This is something a guy like Parise will do for us and the only thing it will cost is cash.
One of the Flames strengths of late has been to get ok to good performance from replacement level dmen. This trend allows us to move cap dollars from dmen to bring in the shift from 1.5M Moss to 9M Parise.
I think Butter is a good coach but I would explore a guy like Tony Granato (former HC, that is AC of a winning program) to replace him. Failing a good fit, reup Butter on a 1-2 year contract. Be prepared to eat the 2nd year contract if things dont turn around.

How all of this looks on paper:
Tanguay Backlund Iginla
Glencross Jokinen Parise
Cammilleri Stajan Baertschi
Aliu Horak Jones
Bouma Jackman

Bouwmeester Butler
Giordano Brodie
Babchuk Smith
Carson

Kipper
Karlsson

3.5 1.3 7
2.5 5 9
6 3.5 1.45
0.95 0.8 0.58
0.693 0.615

6.68 1.25
4.02 0.733
2.5 0.775
0.575

5.833
0.863

Total: 66.167M
Overage: 1.867

To address the overage there are 3 scenarios that can be reasonably explored.
1) Try and Get Olli back down to 3M cap hit. Perhaps it takes a 6 year contract that pays 5, 5, 3, 3, 1, 1 to do so. This can be a happy medium for both player and team and should save us 2M on the cap hit.
2) Hope the cap value increases next year to provide space (hopefully this plus Olli can be enough breathing room)
3) Trade Babchuk (or bury in minors) and replace with AHL contract player like Connelly to save ~1.9M
* Trading of Kipper or Bouw can also be looked at to free cap space but those arent moves that make the team as competitive.
* Consider playing with only 22 players on the roster to start the season to create some breathing room (not likely or the best plan of action)

If the rails should somehow come off the rails again this year, you let Iggy have the Ray Bourque option at Trade Deadline. Bring him back in the off season and perhaps he can give back to the team in a similar fashion as Tkachuk did. Sign one year contracts while the team rebuilds and at trade deadline we send him to a contender to help him get his cup.

That is my gameplan for next year. What do you guys think.

#2 wally31

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Posted 11 April 2012 - 01:19 PM

This is where we currently stand in terms of committed contracts and RFA's that will be at least qualified

Tanguay - OPEN - Iginla
Glencross - Backlund (RFA) - OPEN
Cammilleri - Stajan - OPEN
Jackman - Horak (2way) - Jones (RFA)
Bouma (2way) - OPEN

Bouwmeester - Butler
Giordano - Brodie
Babchuk - Smith
OPEN

Players that are gone and very unlikely to be back on the roster:
Sarich UFA, Stempniak UFA, Hannan UFA
Players unlikely to be resigned but may resurface:
Moss UFA, TKO UFA, Comeau (RFA but his qualifying offer is expensive)
Players that are not signed but may return:
Jokinen

The Flames have 3 starting line up spots up for consideration: 1 C, 2 W
The also have 2 reserve spots up for consideration 1F, 1D

Assumptions:
1) Backlund will be qualified/signed somewhere around his current cap hit of 1.271 (rounded to 1.3). If simply qualified his cap hit is around 900k.
2) Jones will be qualified for 1 year and this gives him a cap hit of 580k
3) Horak is on a 2 way contract but considering he spent most of last year in the NHL the same can likely be assumed for next year.
4) Bouma is likely in a similar boat to Horak.

*****************************END OF CURRENT STATE******************************

Moves I think the Flames should do:
1) Resign Jokinen - estimated cap hit is 5M. May be able to get this lower if we offer longer term.
2) One of Baertschi (skill) or Aliu (size) will make the roster out of camp and claim the 3rd line W spot.
3) One of Aliu or TKO will take the 4th line W spot (moving Jackman to reserve) or reserve spot.
4) Promote an AHL dman for the reserve dman spot. (Connelly, Carson, Wilson, etc). This is likely enough that it should almost be an assumption.
5) This leaves the 2nd line RW spot up for question. I think this is where Feaster really needs to go hard after offensive FA's if he wants to transform this team and make them better. We do have the cap space available assuming no cap increase to pay a player 7M. Feaster may also be able to use the carrot of getting Jokinen a high end line mate to drive Jokinens cap hit down as well but we cant assume that.
The idea is to replace Moss (a 40 pt player when healthy) with a guy that can be a 60pt or better player. There are only 2 major contenders that can do that: Semin and Parise.
There are other players like Hedjuk, Boyes, Huselius, etc that can likely give us more offensive punch than Moss but its not as much of a step up and they all have their own warts.
With Semin its possible that we can pay alot on a very short term (1-2 year) prove it contract. That said Semin is a plan B as the real gem here is Parise. Perhaps one thing going in our favour if we extend Butter is that Parise had his career high 94 pts under him in 08-09.
The real question is will be able to put enough money on the table to attract him. New Jersey doesnt have alot of cap space of their own to play with either and they may be forced to walk away if talks start to look at a cap hit of 9M (note: Crosby and Malkin are 8.7, Ovechkin is 9, so I think this is the ceiling) which is where I think we will need to be to get Parise.

Considerations:
Im not a believer that players simply lose skill as they get older. What I do think they lose is the bounce back ability. What we saw when the Flames were on in March was a) yes the young players came in and made an impact but B) Butter was playing the crap out of his vets. Its entirely possible that a major factor to the drop off at the end was due to a compressed schedule and them losing their legs.
What I think we need to do as our core gets older and I think Feaster is of similar mind is to overload on high end game changer players. Let our older vets play less minutes to increase their quality of play. While you have one line play 20 minutes ATOI one game, shift them to say 14-15mins the next or average them out at 17. To do this you need to have multiple high end players. This is something a guy like Parise will do for us and the only thing it will cost is cash.
One of the Flames strengths of late has been to get ok to good performance from replacement level dmen. This trend allows us to move cap dollars from dmen to bring in the shift from 1.5M Moss to 9M Parise.
I think Butter is a good coach but I would explore a guy like Tony Granato (former HC, that is AC of a winning program) to replace him. Failing a good fit, reup Butter on a 1-2 year contract. Be prepared to eat the 2nd year contract if things dont turn around.

How all of this looks on paper:
Tanguay Backlund Iginla
Glencross Jokinen Parise
Cammilleri Stajan Baertschi
Aliu Horak Jones
Bouma Jackman

Bouwmeester Butler
Giordano Brodie
Babchuk Smith
Carson

Kipper
Karlsson

3.5 1.3 7
2.5 5 9
6 3.5 1.45
0.95 0.8 0.58
0.693 0.615

6.68 1.25
4.02 0.733
2.5 0.775
0.575

5.833
0.863

Total: 66.167M
Overage: 1.867

To address the overage there are 3 scenarios that can be reasonably explored.
1) Try and Get Olli back down to 3M cap hit. Perhaps it takes a 6 year contract that pays 5, 5, 3, 3, 1, 1 to do so. This can be a happy medium for both player and team and should save us 2M on the cap hit.
2) Hope the cap value increases next year to provide space (hopefully this plus Olli can be enough breathing room)
3) Trade Babchuk (or bury in minors) and replace with AHL contract player like Connelly to save ~1.9M
* Trading of Kipper or Bouw can also be looked at to free cap space but those arent moves that make the team as competitive.
* Consider playing with only 22 players on the roster to start the season to create some breathing room (not likely or the best plan of action)

If the rails should somehow come off the rails again this year, you let Iggy have the Ray Bourque option at Trade Deadline. Bring him back in the off season and perhaps he can give back to the team in a similar fashion as Tkachuk did. Sign one year contracts while the team rebuilds and at trade deadline we send him to a contender to help him get his cup.

That is my gameplan for next year. What do you guys think.


Kinda being discussed already.

either way:

The team needs to dramatically improve in two areas (obviously more, but if they want to make the playoffs these two things have to change).

1. Face-offs: Dead last last season in FO%.

2. Offensive production from the blueline: One of the worst teams with Point total from defensemen.

Acquisitions:
C - Stoll, Konokpa (both gritty, mean, face-off machine centres)
D - Wideman

Tangs - Cammy - Iggy
GlenX - Stoll - _______
Bear - Backs - Comeau
Jones - Kono - Aliu
Jackman

Jbow - Gio
Wide - Brodie
Smith - _______

Kipper
Irving

Good mix of youth, toughness, face-offs, and offensive production from the blue-line. I would then switch my focus to a top 6 RW, and a bottom pairing D (mean/physical)

2RW - David Jones would be my first choice. Young, big, scoring touch. P.A Parenteau would be my second choice.

6D - Sarich, Hannan (are both options at the right price.) Maybe a guy like Rome. (I hate the canuck factor, but he's big/phsycial)

Tangs - Cammy - Iggy
GlenX - Stoll - Jones/Parenteau
Bear - Backs - Comeau
Jones - Kono - Aliu
Jackman

Jbow - Gio
Wide - Brodie
Smith - Rome

Kipper
Irving

I personally think this is a good playoff team. Hard, physical, scoring, depth, youth, leadership, etc. We would be one of the better FO teams in the league too. I think it will be hard/next to impossible to attract top end FA to CGY because of the playoff drought. My proposal doesn't have us going after the Parise/Suter's of the world, but focuses on making our team harder to play against, and addressing weakness.

Trades:
Stajan. (got his value up finally.)

#3 C_worthy

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Posted 11 April 2012 - 01:32 PM

2. Offensive production from the blueline: One of the worst teams with Point total from defensemen.

Absolutely agree. I did an analysis a year or two ago comparing team points from the D with playoff success. Of the 16 playoff teams, 15 were in the top 16 of the league for points from the D. Of the 14 that didn't make the playoffs, only 1 was in the top 16 for points from the D. Pretty clear message.

And the Flames are not even close to being in the top 16.

On the other hand....

Feaster has stated - and I strongly agree with him, as do many other posters - the Flames are not tough enough to play against. Their D this year was especially soft.

This, folks, is why I believe the JBo MUST be traded.

There is simply no way that we can get more offensive support AND more toughness from the D if JBo is taking up 25 minutes - or 21% - of the team's icetime for D-men

#4 The_Don

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Posted 11 April 2012 - 01:58 PM

I'm sure you'll disregard my opinion, but this is how I see it.

If you want the Flames to not just be a playoff team, but a contender next season, these are the roster pieces I think you'd want to keep.

******* - ******** - Iginla
Tanguay - Jokinen - Glencross
Backlund - ******** - ********
Comeau - Jones - Moss/Kosto/Jackman

******* - Giordano
Bouwmeester - *******
Butler - ********

Kiprusoff
*********

I look at the roster right now and compared to some of the top teams it's a long ways away. I think you need to add the following:

Top line LW
Top line C
Shutdown C
3rd line W
Top pairing D
2nd pairing D
3rd pairing D
Solid Back-up G

BUT if you are looking for a long-term rebuild, I would go forward with this roster:

Tanguay - Jokinen - Glencross
Cammalleri - Backlund - Stempniak
Comeau - Moss - Horak
Jackman - Jones - Kostopoulos

Giordano - Butler
Smith - Brodie
****** - ******

**********
Irving

Trade Iginla/Kipper/Bouwmeester
Allow Backlund to develop by playing with skilled players
Find a decent veteran goalie to split time with Irving
Suck for a few years, draft HIGH

#5 C_worthy

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Posted 11 April 2012 - 02:09 PM

If you want the Flames to not just be a playoff team, but a contender next season, these are the roster pieces I think you'd want to keep.

******* - ******** - Iginla
Tanguay - Jokinen - Glencross
Backlund - ******** - ********
Comeau - Jones - Moss/Kosto/Jackman

******* - Giordano
Bouwmeester - *******
Butler - ********

Kiprusoff
*********

I look at the roster right now and compared to some of the top teams it's a long ways away. I think you need to add the following:

Top line LW Cammalleri
Top line C
Shutdown C
3rd line W Baertschi
Top pairing D
2nd pairing D Butler is fine as a 2nd pairing
3rd pairing D Brodie and another D can be grabbed in the UFA market
Solid Back-up G Irving

basically, we need a top line C and a top pairing D, which is exactly what many of us have been saying for some time. A 3rd line C would be a fairly easy UFA pickup - or Backlund takes a step forwrd next year.

#6 The_Don

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Posted 11 April 2012 - 02:13 PM

basically, we need a top line C and a top pairing D, which is exactly what many of us have been saying for some time. A 3rd line C would be a fairly easy UFA pickup - or Backlund takes a step forwrd next year.

Cammy can be a top line LW if you want to compete for a playoff spot again. I was talking about being a true contender, competing for a top 4/5 seed and the division. Unless you have a superstar C like Crosby or Malkin, you would need an upgrade over Cammy on the top line wing. He has not played like a top line player in 3 years.

#7 FlamesLogic

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Posted 11 April 2012 - 02:20 PM

Kinda being discussed already.
1. Face-offs: Dead last last season in FO%.
2. Offensive production from the blueline: One of the worst teams with Point total from defensemen.

Acquisitions:
C - Stoll, Konokpa (both gritty, mean, face-off machine centres)
D - Wideman

Tangs - Cammy - Iggy
GlenX - Stoll - _______
Bear - Backs - Comeau
Jones - Kono - Aliu
Jackman

Jbow - Gio
Wide - Brodie
Smith - _______

Kipper
Irving

Good mix of youth, toughness, face-offs, and offensive production from the blue-line. I would then switch my focus to a top 6 RW, and a bottom pairing D (mean/physical)

2RW - David Jones would be my first choice. Young, big, scoring touch. P.A Parenteau would be my second choice.

6D - Sarich, Hannan (are both options at the right price.) Maybe a guy like Rome. (I hate the canuck factor, but he's big/phsycial)

Tangs - Cammy - Iggy
GlenX - Stoll - Jones/Parenteau
Bear - Backs - Comeau
Jones - Kono - Aliu
Jackman

Jbow - Gio
Wide - Brodie
Smith - Rome

Kipper
Irving

Trades:
Stajan. (got his value up finally.)

I just think thats a more of the same type of roster. You leave money on the table as well (assuming Stoll at 3.5M and Wideman at 5M). Konopka might be a better 4th line C than Horak at similar dollars. Im suspect of how many faceoffs he sees in 8 mins a night. Kolanos has a pretty good FO rate but he only sees 2-4 faceoffs per night.
I dont mind getting more grit when possible but I see Jokinen > Stoll by a fairly large margin
Jones is better than Moss, but Im not sure thats enough.
Part of the attraction of a Parise is that if/when Iggy is moved or retires you have someone with the chops to take the reigns. Stoll, Konopka, Wideman, Jones are role players.

You do make some valid points though with FOW and Size. That said you can reconfig the lineup I proposed like this:

tangs Cammi iggy
glenx Olli Parise
Aliu Backlund Baertschi
Jackman Stajan Jones
bouma horak

Iggy is alot stronger on his side of the FO circle so Cammi can be set to just take neutral or LH FO. With an off season of FO work he should improve as well.

#8 C_worthy

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Posted 11 April 2012 - 02:27 PM

Cammy can be a top line LW if you want to compete for a playoff spot again. I was talking about being a true contender, competing for a top 4/5 seed and the division. Unless you have a superstar C like Crosby or Malkin, you would need an upgrade over Cammy on the top line wing. He has not played like a top line player in 3 years.

With Iggy and a real #1 C, Cammalleri would be expected to be in the 35 goal range - somewhere in the 30s anyway.

That puts him in the top 10 in the NHL for LWs and right alongside all the elite teams.

#9 The_Don

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Posted 11 April 2012 - 02:37 PM

With Iggy and a real #1 C, Cammalleri would be expected to be in the 35 goal range - somewhere in the 30s anyway.

That puts him in the top 10 in the NHL for LWs and right alongside all the elite teams.

I guess it would largely depend on who the center is.

#10 C_worthy

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Posted 11 April 2012 - 02:40 PM

I guess it would largely depend on who the center is.

he was on pace for 32 during his time with the Flames this year. And he spent most of his time on the 2nd line. In fact he had a lengthy stretch playing on a line with Kostopoulos and Jones because of injuries (or was it TKo and Bouma?). Now that I think about it, I think he played more games with TKo than he did with Iggy.

So to suggest a similar, maybe marginally improved number when he was on a top line with two top players is hardly being overly optimistic.

#11 The_Don

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Posted 11 April 2012 - 02:45 PM

he was on pace for 32 during his time with the Flames this year. And he spent most of his time on the 2nd line. In fact he had a lengthy stretch playing on a line with Kostopoulos and Jones because of injuries (or was it TKo and Bouma?). Now that I think about it, I think he played more games with TKo than he did with Iggy.

So to suggest a similar, maybe marginally improved number when he was on a top line with two top players is hardly being overly optimistic.

I guess. Pretty small sample size though. 5 goals in the last 7 games of the season seriously bumped the average.

Staying healthy is a problem for him as well, isn't it?

#12 C_worthy

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Posted 11 April 2012 - 02:47 PM

I guess. Pretty small sample size though. 5 goals in the last 7 games of the season seriously bumped the average.

Staying healthy is a problem for him as well, isn't it?

every goal scorer goes through streaks. And any player who gets hot when the games matter is ok by me.

#13 Carty

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Posted 11 April 2012 - 02:59 PM

I would like to see both Baertschi and Aliu on the team next season...

I think Baertschi is the real deal... I was also surprised by the level of skill Aliu showed, and we also know that he will bring back some of the grit that is overdue for the Flames... This was also something Feaster just made reference to as a need for the team...

In fact, I would also like to see consideration for them to be on the 3rd line together... Poke the Bear, and Aliu will get you!!! ;)

#14 The_Don

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Posted 11 April 2012 - 03:01 PM

every goal scorer goes through streaks. And any player who gets hot when the games matter is ok by me.

Didn't the gams stop mattering after the loss to Colorado? He scored 3 goals in the next and last 3 games. 3 goals in the previous 11.

#15 C_worthy

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Posted 11 April 2012 - 03:12 PM

I would like to see both Baertschi and Aliu on the team next season...

I think Baertschi is the real deal... I was also surprised by the level of skill Aliu showed, and we also know that he will bring back some of the grit that is overdue for the Flames... This was also something Feaster just made reference to as a need for the team...

In fact, I would also like to see consideration for them to be on the 3rd line together... Poke the Bear, and Aliu will get you!!! ;)

I think Aliu - IF HE BRINGS THE GRIT AND EFFORT HE SHOWED IN THOSE TWO GAMES - would be a perfect RW for Baertschi and Backlund next year

#16 Carty

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Posted 11 April 2012 - 03:12 PM

He scored 3 goals in the next and last 3 games. 3 goals in the previous 11.


Consider Cammalleri was injured at the beginning of March when he was just finding his stride with the team... ;)

#17 The_Don

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Posted 11 April 2012 - 03:16 PM

Consider Cammalleri was injured at the beginning of March when he was just finding his stride with the team... ;)

And I don't think he's a bad player at all. He can definitely be a top line player on a playoff team. I have a hard time seeing him as a top line player on a true contender. Unless of course he is playing the Kunitz role to a Malkin.

#18 C_worthy

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Posted 11 April 2012 - 03:21 PM

And I don't think he's a bad player at all. He can definitely be a top line player on a playoff team. I have a hard time seeing him as a top line player on a true contender. Unless of course he is playing the Kunitz role to a Malkin.

no team has an elite player for that position in every position.

a line of Iggy, Cammy and a real #1 C would be among the top 5 - 10 lines in the league

Burrows isn't a first line player, but it isn't a problem because the line is top end.

#19 kehatch

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Posted 11 April 2012 - 03:29 PM

no team has an elite player for that position in every position.

a line of Iggy, Cammy and a real #1 C would be among the top 5 - 10 lines in the league

Burrows isn't a first line player, but it isn't a problem because the line is top end.


There is no question in my mind that Cammy is a top line LW in the right environment. But we don't have a 1C or are likely to get one and Iggy is no longer dominant P2P. If we has the depth to deploy Cammy and Iggy in a pure scoring roll we would be okay. But we don't have that depth.

The team has more holes then just a top 4D and 1C unfortunatly. More then can be addressed in a single season. Especially if they refuse to trade their best assets.

#20 C_worthy

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Posted 11 April 2012 - 03:36 PM

The team has more holes then just a top 4D and 1C unfortunatly. More then can be addressed in a single season. Especially if they refuse to trade their best assets.

Trading their best assets creates more holes.

You have made your position clear and you want a rebuild. Great. Our conversation (that you quoted) was with respect to what it would take to be competitive if they didn't take the rebuild route.

Is Cammy a legitimate first line LW - especially if we had a legitimate #1 C? Yes.