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Johnny 'Hockey' Gaudreau

  

16 members have voted

This poll is closed to new votes
  1. 1. How many points will Johnny Hockey score in his sophomore season?

    • 40-50
      1
    • 50-60
      0
    • 60-70
      2
    • 70-80
      7
    • 80-90
      4
    • 90-100
      1
    • 100+
      1


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11 hours ago, lou44291 said:

I disagree.

 

"Wayne Gretzky, the captain and the heart and soul of the dynastic Edmonton Oilers, was traded on Aug. 9, 1988, sent to the Los Angeles Kings along with center Mike Krushelnyski and defenseman Marty McSorley. Coming to the Oilers in return were center Jimmy Carson, first-round draft choice Martin Gelinas, first-round picks in 1989, 1991 and 1993, and $15 million." (https://www.nhl.com/news/wayne-gretzky-traded-to-kings-28-years-ago/c-281301452

Of those draft picks Edmonton picked Rucinsky, traded one to the Devils for Dman Corey Foster, and picked Nick Stajduhar who played two NHL games.

 

IMHO, I take Gretz all day long. I take McDavid all day long. And the team trading the best player - in my eyes - never gets an equal or greater return. It's almost like you'll get the talent divided by 3 or 4, meaning, you'll get 3 or 4 players with a combined perceived talent equal to a McDavid, Gretzky, or Gaudreau but that's like icing a line with 3-4 players operating at 1/3 or 1/4 the talent level. Let's not also discount the fact that talented players such as Gretz, McDavid, Crosby, etc make the players around them better... I'm not sure these lesser talents do the same. 

 

My $0.02 

Gretzky was traded because Pocklington needed money so no this was not a great hockey trade. It did do a lot for raising the profile of pro hockey in the USA.

Gaudreau is a player that makes those around him better, we have already seen that evidence.

I have no idea where the snag is with this negotiation however as a fan I enjoy watching Gaudreau play here.

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Listened to a piece from Flames radio, and they talked to the guy that "leaked" the story of Johnny wanting to finish his career in the East.  He said he put it out there on a lark, not because it was true.  In reality, he could never get JH to agree to wanting to finish his career out East.

 

As far as trading him goes, how did the Gilmour or Iggy trade go?  Newy brought back Iggy, at least, but he was a prospect at the time.  We lost in the first round that year.  Blockbuster trades happen far less these days.  Usually they include a salary dump or are multi-player deals.  

 

The point is that while everyone is tradeable, the return would be crippling to the receiving team.  McDavid could decide to refuse to sign and demand a trade, but the ask would be crazy.  He won't do that because he wants to play hockey.  When he becomes a UFA, he may choose otherwise.    

 

 

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20 hours ago, StarkRaving said:

On the other hand...

 

The Quebec Nordiques build the foundation of a Stanley Cup winning team by trading Eric Lindros for 4 or 5 NHLers, a draft pick, and a ton of cash.  Peter Forsberg and Mike Ricci were part of the trade and they won the Stanley Cup just a couple years later.  Seems to me that the goalie they got in the trade ended up being traded for Patrick Roy. 

 

Edit: It was the draft pick (Jocelyn Thibault) who ended up being traded for Roy.  The goalie from the Lindros trade was Ron Hextall.  

Thank you. You saved me looking up what the rights to RFA Eric Lindros cost (& yet to this day we hear the last minute offer by the Rags was even more which is why the Nordique tried to back out & an arbitrator brought in).

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On 05/10/2016 at 9:16 PM, The_People1 said:

 

Totals man.  That, plus the Oilers won the Cup after trading Gretzky away.  Gretzky never won a Cup after he was traded from the Oilers.

 

In the end, this is what it all comes down to.  Or, what it should all come down to for us, as hockey fans.  Had the Oilers drafted a little better too, the trade would have looked different.  But either way it was good enough to take the cup home.

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Problem with  holding up the Gretzky trade as an example of how trading your best player can work, is you ignore how special of a team that was. Remember, Mark Messier was the 2nd line center in those day. The OIlers went from the best player all time as their number 1 center, to a top 10 player of all time. If you think that is going to happen again, sure  but IMO the cap will prevent that from every happening again.

 

Not sure the Gretzky or Lindross examples apply to Gaudreau at all. I get where people are going, but in both cases your using extreme one off situations. 

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So here we are 5 days away from first Reg of season JH still not signed and no clear signing in sight does he sign before season begins or do we go with out out best player intow? I would say probably signed but there is still a chance of him being traded but not likely I have from the start claimed he will be traded but that was more for shock and aww mostly to get some conversation going in that direction fun but probably not possible. The asking price would be way more than any team could afford and not the way this team wants to go. I would bet owner ship would demand BT gets it done now type thing. I for see JH signing soon probably by tues would be my guess.

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3 hours ago, cross16 said:

Problem with  holding up the Gretzky trade as an example of how trading your best player can work, is you ignore how special of a team that was. Remember, Mark Messier was the 2nd line center in those day. The OIlers went from the best player all time as their number 1 center, to a top 10 player of all time. If you think that is going to happen again, sure  but IMO the cap will prevent that from every happening again.

 

Not sure the Gretzky or Lindross examples apply to Gaudreau at all. I get where people are going, but in both cases your using extreme one off situations. 

 

Edmonton was special pre-trade.   They were simply a contender post-trade, imho.  5th best in the league.  https://www.nhl.com/standings/1989

 

And Quebec Nordiques...basically the exact opposite, yet still resulted in the Stanley Cup. So your arguement holds, only if you forget After the trade, and only if you forget the Nordiques.  (which doesn't leave you with a whole lot).

 

If the Flames are one of those two teams, they're the Nordiques.

 

But in reality, they are neither.   And, Gaudreau imho is Not our best player and Definitely not the best player in the league, or best all-time anything.

 

I think the more relevant concern is the rule of thumb that the team who gets the "best player" in a trade wins that trade.

1.  Not always the case (as shown)

2.  Gaudreau doesn't necessarily have to be the best player in a trade.

 

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I'm not really sure what you are trying to prove JJ or how you decifer that i'm wrong.

 

My point is if you are using the Gretzky trade as an example of how a team can trade their best player (for the sake of argument let's use that title) and still win a cup then IMO your using an extremely example. If you can find a situation where a team traded one hall of fame top line center and intserted another hall of fame top line center i'm all ears.

also i like how peole continue to bring up the Lindross trade. anyone want to try and find me another franchise altering trade where a team traded their best player and got the pieces that was necessary to win a cup?

 

where i do agree JJ, and always have, is I am fine discussing a trade with Gaudreau but IMO the flames arn't likely to win that trade. if there was a trade then i would explore it but I don't think there is. i don't think teams are going to continue to give up high, high end young talent anymore like the flyers did in the Lindross trade. 

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40 minutes ago, cross16 said:

I'm not really sure what you are trying to prove JJ or how you decifer that i'm wrong.

 

My point is if you are using the Gretzky trade as an example of how a team can trade their best player (for the sake of argument let's use that title) and still win a cup then IMO your using an extremely example. If you can find a situation where a team traded one hall of fame top line center and intserted another hall of fame top line center i'm all ears.

also i like how peole continue to bring up the Lindross trade. anyone want to try and find me another franchise altering trade where a team traded their best player and got the pieces that was necessary to win a cup?

 

where i do agree JJ, and always have, is I am fine discussing a trade with Gaudreau but IMO the flames arn't likely to win that trade. if there was a trade then i would explore it but I don't think there is. i don't think teams are going to continue to give up high, high end young talent anymore like the flyers did in the Lindross trade. 

Both were a different era as cash was a large part of both trades.

 

As has been said the Oilers had the other front liners like Messier to take over.

QC had been drafting high for years but a windfall of complimentary players & Forsberg to add to what was acquired for Sundin made them better. The the Roy fiasco in Montreal got them both Roy & the leadership of Keane for some of those pieces. It was the perfect storm to add the final parts to a team that looked almost ready just before.

 

Without cash strapped owners/teams receiving that $ injection & the cap you'll never see those types of trades again. Now what teams will offer is approximated on what an OS would cost if allowed (player X = a 1st for example) & cap space (can I/do I need to include a salary dump). Cap teams need to include salary to add top enders while floor teams usually prefer to offer picks/prospects to add a starter.

 

As an aside both Gretz & Lindros were the more coveted position of center.

The really isn't an applicable situation to Gaudreau the winger.

 

 

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2 hours ago, cross16 said:

I'm not really sure what you are trying to prove JJ or how you decifer that i'm wrong.

 

My point is if you are using the Gretzky trade as an example of how a team can trade their best player (for the sake of argument let's use that title) and still win a cup then IMO your using an extremely example. If you can find a situation where a team traded one hall of fame top line center and intserted another hall of fame top line center i'm all ears.

also i like how peole continue to bring up the Lindross trade. anyone want to try and find me another franchise altering trade where a team traded their best player and got the pieces that was necessary to win a cup?

 

where i do agree JJ, and always have, is I am fine discussing a trade with Gaudreau but IMO the flames arn't likely to win that trade. if there was a trade then i would explore it but I don't think there is. i don't think teams are going to continue to give up high, high end young talent anymore like the flyers did in the Lindross trade. 

 

It's not intended as a right or wrong thing, my apologies.  Obviously an opinion based thing.

 

A couple "opinions" only:

 

Nobody ever intended to give up a better player than Lindros in that trade.  It was the combination of a late bloomer, and Lindros's concussions.

 

Forsberg, at the time of the June 1992 trade, was promising, simply for the fact that he was in the SEL, but not exceptional in it.  http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/pdisplay.php?pid=1742

 

It wasn't until the Next season that he exploded offensively in the SEL, and it wasn't another Two Years before he was ready for the NHL.  He was just another 6th overall pick.  Could have been Monahan, could have been Rico Fata, Rico Fata, or Daniel Tkachuk.  Nobody, at that time, knew he would be an all-time NHL great and, essentially, contribute more to the game than Lindros.

 

The same would be true of a trade now.  The Nordiques Clearly did their scouting.     The Flames would have to as well.   

 

I DO agree with you, that trades have changed, in Other ways...for instance...It's unlikely that we would trade Gaudreau twice in the same day :)   

    (unless Feaster gets invovolved somehow)

 

Also, I don't believe you, with all your hockey knowledge, that you can't fathom a winning trade.  Perhaps more risk than you would prefer, yes.  But Gaudreau carries risk with him as well.   IMHO, you have a man crush hidden beneath all that hockey intellect :)

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So what could we reasonably hope to get if we traded Gaudreau? I certainly hope we sign him, but since we are talking trade a bit what would be fair value? And is there anyone out there who could give fair value?  

To me, fair value includes a starting point of an established, young scoring winger.  Someone kind of like Kucherov, maybe Van Reimsdyke, possibly someone like Toffoli.  Then you have to add either a decent prospect who could be nhl ready (or will be soon), or a high end draft pick (like a 1st).  Then maybe another lower draft pick (4th).  Obviously would depend on what the main piece you get coming back is (Kucherov is closer to JH, so probably would not need a 1st in addition, unlike JVR).

Personally, I don't think there is anyone out there who will give you fair value.  Your best bet would involve a package of players and salary going in each direction, and the flames typically lose those transactions.

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27 minutes ago, ABC923 said:

So what could we reasonably hope to get if we traded Gaudreau? I certainly hope we sign him, but since we are talking trade a bit what would be fair value? And is there anyone out there who could give fair value?  

To me, fair value includes a starting point of an established, young scoring winger.  Someone kind of like Kucherov, maybe Van Reimsdyke, possibly someone like Toffoli.  Then you have to add either a decent prospect who could be nhl ready (or will be soon), or a high end draft pick (like a 1st).  Then maybe another lower draft pick (4th).  Obviously would depend on what the main piece you get coming back is (Kucherov is closer to JH, so probably would not need a 1st in addition, unlike JVR).

Personally, I don't think there is anyone out there who will give you fair value.  Your best bet would involve a package of players and salary going in each direction, and the flames typically lose those transactions.

Puljujarvi plus.  He's not established yet so the fan base hasn't fallen in love with him yet, and he potentially could end up at a Gaudreau level.... 

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At this point JH's agent is looking to use the season as leverage, likely anticipating the Flames struggle early without their star. It will help them argue and justify whatever amount of $ they are requesting. Hopefully the Flames brass stand their ground or next thing you know Bennett could be holding out on us next year, especially if he produces like he's expected to this season. 

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1 hour ago, rickross said:

At this point JH's agent is looking to use the season as leverage, likely anticipating the Flames struggle early without their star. It will help them argue and justify whatever amount of $ they are requesting. Hopefully the Flames brass stand their ground or next thing you know Bennett could be holding out on us next year, especially if he produces like he's expected to this season. 

This might be true but it could just as easily backfire and cost him too. If the Flames can win without him then he has no leverage anyway. I don't think it wise for an agent to play those games with a clients lifework anymore.

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1 hour ago, rickross said:

At this point JH's agent is looking to use the season as leverage, likely anticipating the Flames struggle early without their star. It will help them argue and justify whatever amount of $ they are requesting. Hopefully the Flames brass stand their ground or next thing you know Bennett could be holding out on us next year, especially if he produces like he's expected to this season. 

 

Maybe.  Or perhaps BT is still trying to lowball the agent, trying to involve Johnny in the discussion to help get the player on his side.

 

Or, perhaps it's simply a matter of finalizing all the details of a complicated contract.  A simple 7x7 contract is one thing, but bonuses (signing ones), annual salary, last year salary, NTC/NMC clauses, etc. can add to the length of time to get the deal done.

 

Bennett is not in any similar position to Gaudreau or even Monahan.  He has one season of real production plus whatever he does ths year.  Nowhere near Monahan or Johnny's two recent seasons.  BT would be wise to negotiate well before the end of the season.  

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1 minute ago, travel_dude said:

 

Maybe.  Or perhaps BT is still trying to lowball the agent, trying to involve Johnny in the discussion to help get the player on his side.

 

Or, perhaps it's simply a matter of finalizing all the details of a complicated contract.  A simple 7x7 contract is one thing, but bonuses (signing ones), annual salary, last year salary, NTC/NMC clauses, etc. can add to the length of time to get the deal done.

 

Bennett is not in any similar position to Gaudreau or even Monahan.  He has one season of real production plus whatever he does ths year.  Nowhere near Monahan or Johnny's two recent seasons.  BT would be wise to negotiate well before the end of the season.  

Funny how a lot of us(me included) were all over the Oilers for presigning their #1 picks early to long term contracts.

 

It makes one wonder if those actions are becoming the norm now or have forced the hand of other clubs to do the same??

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5 minutes ago, DirtyDeeds said:

Funny how a lot of us(me included) were all over the Oilers for presigning their #1 picks early to long term contracts.

 

It makes one wonder if those actions are becoming the norm now or have forced the hand of other clubs to do the same??

 

I'm just going by what happened with Gaudreau.  If they re-signed him before Christmas, it would have been cheaper.  At that point they would have known that the previous season wasn't a fluke, and there wouldn't have been much to compare him to Tarasenko or the Ekblad contract.

 

If they wait till the end of this season, and Bennett blows the doors off scoring, then the cost would be hgher than signing him mid-season.  I get what you are saying though. The tendency seems to be to lock them up before they have really proved anything.  In hindsight, Hall's deal is good for the remainder, Eberle's is ok for a one way player, and Nuge is too high right now.    

 

I'm not sure anymore what is the best thing to do.  Bridge deals end up costing the team too much on the next contract.  If you are lucky, you can lock up a hidden gem for low dollars.  But most teams are looking down the road and trying to lock up their stars, so they don't lose them in FA.  The long term deals help keep the AAV down.  

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3 minutes ago, travel_dude said:

 

I'm just going by what happened with Gaudreau.  If they re-signed him before Christmas, it would have been cheaper.  At that point they would have known that the previous season wasn't a fluke, and there wouldn't have been much to compare him to Tarasenko or the Ekblad contract.

 

If they wait till the end of this season, and Bennett blows the doors off scoring, then the cost would be hgher than signing him mid-season.  I get what you are saying though. The tendency seems to be to lock them up before they have really proved anything.  In hindsight, Hall's deal is good for the remainder, Eberle's is ok for a one way player, and Nuge is too high right now.    

 

I'm not sure anymore what is the best thing to do.  Bridge deals end up costing the team too much on the next contract.  If you are lucky, you can lock up a hidden gem for low dollars.  But most teams are looking down the road and trying to lock up their stars, so they don't lose them in FA.  The long term deals help keep the AAV down.  

 

If you are Bennett would you sign mid season or wait till you have another full season of proving what you can do?

 

I would wait till the end of the season, where my value is much higher.

 

This is a two way street.

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7 minutes ago, JTech780 said:

 

If you are Bennett would you sign mid season or wait till you have another full season of proving what you can do?

 

I would wait till the end of the season, where my value is much higher.

 

This is a two way street.

 

Sure, but Bennett might want to sign when presented with a reasonable offer.  You take as big a risk waiting as you do signing based on current play.  Some players don't want the distraction mid season, while others want the security, so they can just play their game.

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6 hours ago, travel_dude said:

 

Bennett is not in any similar position to Gaudreau or even Monahan.  He has one season of real production plus whatever he does ths year.  Nowhere near Monahan or Johnny's two recent seasons.  BT would be wise to negotiate well before the end of the season.  

No he's not, I was just saying if he happens to go off this year then he could command a bit of an overpayment after his entry level. If Ekblad and Draistatl.(i know messed up the name lol) have really strong seasons then they could be used as a comparable considering they share draft years. Bennett has looked strong so far, it's not of out his realm..especially during a contract year. 

 

I think they'll lock Bennett up long term, he's definitely part of the core and he knows that. I was asked by some die hard Oiler fans tonight why the Flames signed Monny BEFORE JH. As if the Flames were picking favorites and slighted JH by paying Monny 1st. The Oilers organization has been so inept for so long..they can't even understand how an organization can successfully manage and multi task its assets and contract negotiations. They also believe the BOA will return in full force this season..don't laugh!

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30 minutes ago, rickross said:

No he's not, I was just saying if he happens to go off this year then he could command a bit of an overpayment after his entry level. If Ekblad and Draistatl.(i know messed up the name lol) have really strong seasons then they could be used as a comparable considering they share draft years. Bennett has looked strong so far, it's not of out his realm..especially during a contract year. 

 

I think they'll lock Bennett up long term, he's definitely part of the core and he knows that. I was asked by some die hard Oiler fans tonight why the Flames signed Monny BEFORE JH. As if the Flames were picking favorites and slighted JH by paying Monny 1st. The Oilers organization has been so inept for so long..they can't even understand how an organization can successfully manage and multi task its assets and contract negotiations. They also believe the BOA will return in full force this season..don't laugh!

 

Ekblad played 2 full seasons and upped for $7.5m long term.  He's not a comp player due to his position and performance through those years as a teen.

His salary is insane for someone his age, but the AAV isn't crazy considering he will only get better.  $9m actual salary in 2017/18 ($5m signing bonus).  Wow.

Draisaitl is going to be an issue for the Oilers, because he is one year prior to McDavid's next contract.  If he plays really well this year, he will command Eberle money.

Think about the possible salaries in 2018/19

Eberle $6m

Nuge $6m

Lucic $6m

Draisaitl $6m estimated

McDavid $9m estimated

$33m or more for 5 players, all forwards.  Leaves around $40m for the other 18 players.  I know we are headed in a similar direction, but have some value built in over time.

3 years minimum of Tkachuk less than $1m.  Brodie on a reasonable deal.  The other defense are locked up for awhile.  Highly rated prospects that could replace other players.  The oilers will likely be on McDavid's 2nd contract when they start making noise.  Lucic may already be on the decline by then.  And they will have to spend money on a defense.

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1 hour ago, travel_dude said:

 

Ekblad played 2 full seasons and upped for $7.5m long term.  He's not a comp player due to his position and performance through those years as a teen.

His salary is insane for someone his age, but the AAV isn't crazy considering he will only get better.  $9m actual salary in 2017/18 ($5m signing bonus).  Wow.

Draisaitl is going to be an issue for the Oilers, because he is one year prior to McDavid's next contract.  If he plays really well this year, he will command Eberle money.

Think about the possible salaries in 2018/19

Eberle $6m

Nuge $6m

Lucic $6m

Draisaitl $6m estimated

McDavid $9m estimated

$33m or more for 5 players, all forwards.  Leaves around $40m for the other 18 players.  I know we are headed in a similar direction, but have some value built in over time.

3 years minimum of Tkachuk less than $1m.  Brodie on a reasonable deal.  The other defense are locked up for awhile.  Highly rated prospects that could replace other players.  The oilers will likely be on McDavid's 2nd contract when they start making noise.  Lucic may already be on the decline by then.  And they will have to spend money on a defense.

I can't wait until Chia pays McDavid his $9-10m..he's already full throttle on his highway to salary cap hell. When you think about it, Chia indirectly helped us land Dougie Hamilton by handcuffing Sweeney with the cap, he trades off 2 of our main rivals coveted 1st Rd picks for Larsson and a 3rd, traded away the 16th(Barzal) and 33rd Rd picks to land Griffin Reinhard who's been sent back to the AHL and is still considered too slow for todays NHL. Barzal is close to cracking the Islanders lineup this season btw. Ppl forget he was fired from Boston..a big Donald Trump..."Ya Fired!". Think its time we drop Chia and Benning from our payroll and sign Johnny already!

 

You are absolutely right tho..they will be in tough the next few years having to sign Draisaitl and their newest draftee "Pool Party" let alone the boss himself Connor Mac. He'll have not choice but to keep offloading some of the overpriced talent and getting shafted just to make a deal. I can't even imagine the desperation moves he'll make during an expansion draft year..especially if the Oil continue to their losing ways this season.

 

Funny thing..those same Oiler fans have NO idea how Anton Lander is still an Oiler and Hall and Yakupov are not!

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5 minutes ago, conundrumed said:

Is it now fair to say John Gaudreau has now hijacked our entire camp and ability to make any personnel adjustments to get better?

I'd say it seems like the 6 high profile RFAs, Johnny included, are trying to get the big bucks now rather than wait till they're UFAs.  Can't say I blame him, a players 20s are typically their peak years. 

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