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I Can't See This Ending Well At All.


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#1 DirtyDeeds

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Posted 29 December 2012 - 11:52 AM

Gun training for teachers
The Utah Shooting Sports Council offered six hours of training in handling concealed weapons in the latest effort to arm teachers to confront school assailants.

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http://news.yahoo.com/photos/gun-training-for-teachers-slideshow/christine-caldwell-left-receives-firearms-training-9mm-glock-photo-230638133.html

#2 happycat

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Posted 29 December 2012 - 04:16 PM

This is sooooo yucky man.

#3 The_People1

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Posted 29 December 2012 - 04:38 PM

On December 14, 2012, a mad man rushed into a school full of children and began an unthinkable assault. Within minutes, 22 children in total were wounded. This man was later arrested by police. He used only a knife in his attack. This happened in China,

http://www.cnn.com/2...tack/index.html

And on the same day in America...

#4 Carty

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Posted 29 December 2012 - 09:05 PM

Quite a few years back, I went through a very lengthy process to obtain a permit to carry here in Canada...

I have also shot every weapon I have had the chance to over a number of years, ranging from a peashooter .22 cal, to 50 cal sniper rifles and even fully automatic weapons while down in the States...

What I can add for a comment on the subject is this...

While the idea to make an attempt to do something to attempt to protect innocent children may have good intentions, the very thought that six hours of training is adequate is ridiculous...

I have friends that I have known for several years that are competent at shooting a rifle, but can not seem to transfer the skills to a handgun... And that is under the controlled environment of a range and not under the pressure of a real life crisis unfolding...

The fact is, after a lot of time spent with firearms on ranges and in other situations has taught me this... Most people will never be even what I would consider to be proficient at shooting a handgun, let alone worthy of consideration of entrusting them with this type of weapon around children... To even think that 6 hrs of training is sufficient is foolhardy, let alone considering that the potential ramifications of not ensuring that the proper background checks and tests for mental stability have been performed...

That said, banning guns is not the answer either, otherwise only the bad guys will have them...

There has to be an answer, but handing handguns out like tin badges is not it... It is an accident (and a potentially ugly one) waiting to happen...

#5 The_People1

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Posted 30 December 2012 - 05:00 PM

Quite a few years back, I went through a very lengthy process to obtain a permit to carry here in Canada...

I have also shot every weapon I have had the chance to over a number of years, ranging from a peashooter .22 cal, to 50 cal sniper rifles and even fully automatic weapons while down in the States...

What I can add for a comment on the subject is this...

While the idea to make an attempt to do something to attempt to protect innocent children may have good intentions, the very thought that six hours of training is adequate is ridiculous...

I have friends that I have known for several years that are competent at shooting a rifle, but can not seem to transfer the skills to a handgun... And that is under the controlled environment of a range and not under the pressure of a real life crisis unfolding...

The fact is, after a lot of time spent with firearms on ranges and in other situations has taught me this... Most people will never be even what I would consider to be proficient at shooting a handgun, let alone worthy of consideration of entrusting them with this type of weapon around children... To even think that 6 hrs of training is sufficient is foolhardy, let alone considering that the potential ramifications of not ensuring that the proper background checks and tests for mental stability have been performed...

That said, banning guns is not the answer either, otherwise only the bad guys will have them...

There has to be an answer, but handing handguns out like tin badges is not it... It is an accident (and a potentially ugly one) waiting to happen...

I have also shot some guns in the gun ranges in Calgary. Handguns only. Outside of Magnums, most handguns are manageable and could be easily used by a 50-year-old female teacher.

But that said, when a psycho runs into a classroom with an M4-Carine emptying a magazine every 10 seconds, a simple pistol is no match. You've got to have a sub-machine gun or some type of assault rifle yourself.

I don't think guns kill people. People kill people. Sometimes bad guys kill people but generally speaking, bad guys only defend themselves against the police. Only psychos kill people. Psychos cannot be trusted with guns. But yet, psychos can buy guns in the States.

Bad guys with guns isn't the problem. The problem is guns in the hands of the mentally unstable who have uncontrollable episodes.

#6 Flyerfan52

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Posted 30 December 2012 - 05:24 PM

People kill people. Sometimes bad guys kill people but generally speaking, bad guys only defend themselves against the police.

We've got a bit of a gang problem here in the 'Peg since the police put all the HA in jail & removed the 1 thing the gangbangers were scared of. For the most part they are killing each other but the wannabes trying to make a rep don't care if it's a rival member of just a citizen they are trying to jack.

No police have been shot because that would bring down the full wrath of the force. Party houses would be raided with the tactical force heading the raid. Even those idiots aren't stupid enough to risk that kind of take down every minute without notice. Even our lax Mb. judges frown on someone killing an officer of the law.

Bad guys defending themselves against the police? It sounds like you've had bad experiences with the boys in blue but painting them with 1 brush is totally wrong. There are a-holes in any large group & I've met bad cops but also some dang fine people. Much of the crap people accuse the police of is caused by their own attitude.

#7 The_People1

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Posted 30 December 2012 - 06:06 PM

Bad guys defending themselves against the police? It sounds like you've had bad experiences with the boys in blue but painting them with 1 brush is totally wrong. There are a-holes in any large group & I've met bad cops but also some dang fine people. Much of the crap people accuse the police of is caused by their own attitude.

It came out wrong. I meant bad guys have guns to defend against others with guns. Just so happened that the police came to mind.

It's like,
If your opponent has a fist, then you need a knife.
If your opponent has a knife, then you need a gun.
If your opponent has a pistol, then you need an AK-47.
If your opponent has an AK-47, then you need a tank.
If your opponent has a tank, then you need rockets.
If your opponent has rockets, then you need nukes.

Like, where does it end? I like how in Canada, it ends in the early stages. Even the streets of China is safer than America.

#8 DirtyDeeds

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Posted 30 December 2012 - 07:00 PM

I am not sure if a 50 year old female teacher can shoot well enough is the correct way to look at it. That thought should be "Do you want a 50 yr old teacher"(female or not) with 6 hours training shooting at some weirdo who is shooting up your school, when it is full of innocent kids?

Bullets go through stuff like walls, people, and they reflect off of things.

#9 The_People1

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Posted 30 December 2012 - 10:32 PM

I am not sure if a 50 year old female teacher can shoot well enough is the correct way to look at it. That thought should be "Do you want a 50 yr old teacher"(female or not) with 6 hours training shooting at some weirdo who is shooting up your school, when it is full of innocent kids?

Bullets go through stuff like walls, people, and they reflect off of things.

If putting handguns into the hands of 50-year-old female teachers will provide the necessary security for kids in school, then i'm all for it. It doesn't however. As i've mentioned, there are psychos with sub-machine guns. Therefore, i'm totally against it.

#10 happycat

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Posted 31 December 2012 - 12:45 PM

I am not sure if a 50 year old female teacher can shoot well enough is the correct way to look at it. That thought should be "Do you want a 50 yr old teacher"(female or not) with 6 hours training shooting at some weirdo who is shooting up your school, when it is full of innocent kids?

Bullets go through stuff like walls, people, and they reflect off of things.


A viable solution would be to post guards at schools. This will act as 1) deterent against Pedobears. I tell you, the guards though I was one, when I went to pick up my baby sister from her day care, because they never seen me before. Until she said goh-goh and rand up to me to stomp my foot (something playful she does). But I'm glad they have security like that. LOTS of "Strangers" in China. Of course more wealthy private schools have better private security instead of the semi retired cops. But Highschools in Calgary, Edmonton, usually have a police liason, Do they have such systems in America?


But I'm glad they have security. Most schools in China have cement walls and marble tile gates (cheap marble), and iron gages, and have a "Checkpoint Charlie" like box.. (how deranged knifers break through is sometimes the guard is neglient, and or overpowered, or the nut attacks so suddenly. Or the school doesn't have a guard door (especially in poorer regions).

#11 DL44

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Posted 31 December 2012 - 12:50 PM

Dumbest thing i've seen yet.

How could such logic pass thru a vote of supposedly educated people elected to office??

I'm not a huge rah rah guy on the topic... BUT i am mindboggled at how simple it is to own a gun in the states.

Its as easy as getting a liquor licence to host party here in BC...

What is logic against upping restrictions on what you can acquire legally on the open market? Look at Australia as a case study. US like laws initially - transitioned successfully to higher level gun control...

If people want to use the 2nd amendment as their pedestal.. they have to keep in mind that was in an era of muskets... not automatic or semi-automatic high powered war used artillery.


Starting Point:

US needs to suck it up and put up the cash for a Gun-Buy-Back program. Set it up in every hard hit economic region of the country to start.. People need some incentive...
- offer cash or.. tax break or food stamps or something of value.

300 million guns on the streets... this would dent that ever so slightly.. but any dent is a good start.

#12 Carty

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Posted 31 December 2012 - 06:44 PM

I have also shot some guns in the gun ranges in Calgary. Handguns only. Outside of Magnums, most handguns are manageable and could be easily used by a 50-year-old female teacher.

No insult intended here Peeps, far from it... But there is a lot of difference between shooting at a single stationary target and a moving target(s)... If you have never done it, try this if your range will let you and they have their targets on remote electric pulleys for distance... Have some one else control a single target, moving it back and forth with a stop for 1 second between movement while you empty your clip with a time limit of 3 seconds per round... Then try that again with 2 targets and 2 people controlling them and then 3...

The reason I started doing that exercise was because I had some friends I hunt and fish with in bear country that always insisted their .44 or .45 or even my .50 cal Smith & Wesson was the ultimate in bear protection... I also used to think that handguns would serve that purpose (even though for some reason I always felt better with a shotgun), until years ago, when I watched a friend of mine (who I know to be good at hitting stationary paper targets) fire 7 rounds with a .45 cal M1911A1 at a charging bear hitting it twice and only inflicting minor wounds... I finished the bear off with a short double barrel 12 gauge with 1 round of 00 buckshot in the left barrel to stop him and a slug in the right for the coup de grace...

To this day, I firmly believe that most people would be better off with a good quality bear spray for bear protection than a handgun... The stress of the moment does not help with accuracy, with any gun, for most people...


But that said, when a psycho runs into a classroom with an M4-Carine emptying a magazine every 10 seconds, a simple pistol is no match. You've got to have a sub-machine gun or some type of assault rifle yourself.

This is true... It's the old don't bring a knife to a gunfight analogy... And then it all comes back to training, 6 hrs is not enough, and you can not train just anyone, even with more hours... I would think if 1 (maybe 2) out of every 10 teachers could be properly certified, it would be beating the odds...

I don't think guns kill people. People kill people. Sometimes bad guys kill people but generally speaking, bad guys only defend themselves against the police. You already clarified this statement... :) ) Only psychos kill people. Psychos cannot be trusted with guns. But yet, psychos can buy guns in the States.

If someone makes it, you can buy it anywhere... It is just a matter of how, and how much...

Bad guys with guns isn't the problem. The problem is guns in the hands of the mentally unstable who have uncontrollable episodes.

This more adequately points out the root of the problem...

All "mass shooters" have mental issues, and a very high percentage of them can typically be quite obvious... Some even had made statements to psychiatric professionals along the lines of "They felt the desire/need to kill people"... But the shrinks say they were bound to client confidentiality, and that has to end... Instead, they need to be bound by law to disclose when the feel a client could pose a danger to others... In my opinion, the family including parents (most importantly) also share a responsibility to society as a whole, as well as themselves, to facilitate getting outside help when they need to draw attention to and seek outside help for a troubled individual... Failing to do so when someone makes it obvious over time that they could present that kind of danger, can have ramifications that can not be rectified if things go sideways... I have seen it happen with a friend I have known since grade 3 and his nephew recently... Within the last couple of years his nephew was convicted of gang related shootings in Calgary and is now serving time in Edmonton Max... I can tell you that the remorse he feels for not handling things differently, and not just hoping nothing bad would happen, has scarred him for life...


As for further addressing this subject, I can also say this... There was a time when I was considering moving my family to California...

As a father trying to do my due diligence, I went to look at schools, and while doing so close to where I was looking at buying a house, I entered a Junior High School where I had to go through a metal detector and empty my pockets until I was "clean" to get in, and after I was allowed in I was followed at a distance by a security guard... I thought that was ridiculous, and it totally soured me on the potential move... They had one entrance, but several "emergency only" exits... I went to other schools and some of the larger high schools had 2 or 3 entrances with a metal detector and security, as well as more "emergency only" exits... I am starting to think that maybe those schools were doing it for a reason and they were just ahead of the curve...

Perhaps having metal detectors and properly trained armed security might be something to look at along with a proper lockdown procedure that included secure heavy doors to help protect the children if a breach occurred might have to be looked at if necessary...

I hope it never comes to that here, but if it did, I can think of many ways the taxpayer dollars go to less worthy causes...

I would rather see measures implemented that headed things off at the pass, in other words, try and identify the nuts before they fall off the tree...

While I am not saying that any ideas I may have are the best solution, many other ideas should be looked at as well, long before ideas like handing out handguns to teachers with insufficient training and screening were even remotely considered... Besides the fact of what could happen if a teacher snapped under personal pressure or problems without even another person presenting a threat... Over the course of my education, there were a couple of teachers that took time off from a personal collapse, and 2 I can think of never returned to the system due to complete breakdowns... What if someone like them were armed, and became the problem rather than part of the solution...

#13 Flyerfan52

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Posted 31 December 2012 - 07:40 PM

True Carty.
There are dangers in everything but I do know some of our local bars have metal detectors. I'm not sure what good those would do if some idiot has his mind set on killing someone for a reason only his little mind thinks is sufficient as he's only facing unarmed bouncers but it supposedly makes some people feel safer.

It's not only the US where it's easy to procure a gun. I'm a straight up civilian (& look the part now) but know a few places I could buy a gun if I cared to.

I got rid of my guns years ago because I was no longer interested in target shooting but they went to someone I trust with my life. At least 1 was not really traceable as it technically didn't exist in Canada but is now registered.

I'm not scared of guns in the hands of responsible people. I wouldn't mind having 1 back if I saw a gangbanger using 1 while scaring the crap out of convenience store employees. Those are mostly scared kids that will shoot @ anything that moves if startled & are therefore dangerous. Better a dead wannabe then an innocent clerk making a living (a buddy working nights was held up @ gunpoint twice).
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The due diligence by doctors & family members is good in theory but few in either group will even report a driver with fading eyesight if he/she is a family member or patient. They don't want to be seen as the "bad person" that took away something that person valued. Others are just in denial.
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As to the schools, recently retired police personnel should fit the bill (depending on why they left). Metal detectors manned by them should fit the bill as they have the training to react to or diffuse problems. If the psycho enters through a window @ least they have the training to minimize the damage.
Armed teachers with only minimal training are as dangerous as the shooter.

#14 Carty

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Posted 31 December 2012 - 08:57 PM

As to the schools, recently retired police personnel should fit the bill (depending on why they left).


The opportunity to respond to this is just too good to pass up...

As you know FF52, I had moved to and lived in Slave Lake for the lifestyle including playing on the water, fishing, hunting, etc, a while back... Until a little over a year and a half ago when I watched my house light up (one of the very first) along with over half the rest of town... Then I relocated... :lol:

But a few years back, a local RCMP officer went postal after a Mothers Day bash at the local Legion.... And he happened to live right across the street... Only funny because no one got hurt... :lol:

Seems like he took his 9mm service pistol and locked himself in the bathroom after being involved in an episode with other guests and also including his wife...

He fired one round, that went through the wall then through the wall to his attached garage, then through the outside garage wall above the garage door itself...

Upon further investigation, it was by methods (everything from strings and levels and then lasers) performed by K Division specialists deemed that the bullet had to have hit my house, probably around the garage door, or a bit above... An old work truck I kept for hauling was parked right in the driveway at that point in time, and it had a very large clump of Saskatoon bushes in the bed with the huge root ball at the back... I never thought much of it, and neither did they... There were no holes in my house, and there were no holes in my truck... The search took 3 days before they gave up...

Now, the plot thickens... On day 2 of that adventure, I had gone out and asked if it was ok if I took my truck around back to plant the Saskatoons and then left it elsewhere, yeah no problem, was the answer... Now the evening of the night after that (3rd day), after the investigating officers and detectives had given up and packed it in... I was in my office, having a few beers when I had a thought... It had been driving me batnavajo fry bread wondering how this elusive bullet could have been possibly defying all known laws of ballistics...

It just came to me, and I knew exactly where it was... It was a bit after 10:30 PM and I called a friend that had a metal detector and asked if I could borrow it... After he LHFO and pointed out that I always seemed to be scoffing while he scanned the beach, he asked why I wanted it... I said I would walk over (could not drive due to beer limit) and be there shortly... We both came back with it, and found a hot spot right beside a main bunch of the Saskatoon bushes in the root ball... I knew better than to disturb anything, and to rather just let the authorities do their job...

I then had no choice... I walked into the local establishment, went to the desk and raised my hands in the air... They looked perplexed... I knew some of them, and they knew that I knew some of their members quite well, a few being other neighbors that were cops... I continued to give them the straight face, and told them I was guilty... `Guilty of what?" they asked...

"Planting the evidence" I answered...

#15 Flyerfan52

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Posted 01 January 2013 - 10:34 AM

The opportunity to respond to this is just too good to pass up...


:lol:
That's well done steaking great!

#16 happycat

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Posted 01 January 2013 - 02:32 PM

It came out wrong. I meant bad guys have guns to defend against others with guns. Just so happened that the police came to mind.

It's like,
If your opponent has a fist, then you need a knife.
If your opponent has a knife, then you need a gun.
If your opponent has a pistol, then you need an AK-47.
If your opponent has an AK-47, then you need a tank.
If your opponent has a tank, then you need rockets.
If your opponent has rockets, then you need nukes.

Like, where does it end? I like how in Canada, it ends in the early stages. Even the streets of China is safer than America.


>>> Or one can be as the Jesus-Buddah and just be pacifists in a sea of violence, and start building up the community to defuse tension. There's the stereotype that America is a country full of maruding street punks ala mad max, but not so.. there are LOTS of volunteers and non-profit groups trying to dissuade young people from joining gangs... The Quakers (Mennoites.... i think), are a active religion that seeks to improve the condition for humanity, such as programs for immigrant families that help them reintergrate into Canadian society ASAP, as well as help influence progresive laws and attitudes, such as the ending of Slavery. So if we want to see quicker results in defusing the things that make people angry (say a armed uprisings, gangs and crimes), and all the awesome conditions of our human race that makes life suck. Then perhaps we should engage in building better communities with our free time (volunteering), to crate this utopia that John Lennon, or Baba Yogi, or Ghandhi or Jesus and a bunch of other cool artists wrote, sang, and created (artwork ie paintings).

#17 The_People1

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Posted 02 January 2013 - 10:35 PM

Did Norway have gun laws when Anders Brevik was overcome by the holy spirit of the Knights of the Templar?

#18 happycat

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Posted 06 January 2013 - 02:53 AM

I think they do. It's very very difficult in those countries to get guns, unless it's used for hunting or sport. Switzerland seems to have lax gun laws however.... I remember firing guns and learning hunting skills in Scouts. But we had to have strict protocol. I perfer Archery myself. It's more stealty, like if you fire guns, wouldn't Zombies be like grunt what's that? And no sliencers don't work.....

But it wouldn't matter, like you mention Peeps people will resort to knives, and other tools.... we're programed to survivalism...... which Im laughing at you hoomons, because us cats have claws and sharp teeth and genetically engineered to hunt... You guys have to pay 300 for a rifle, and 50 bucks for ammuntions, and the necessary permits and a locker to lock the gun away (again required by law).. or in Japan it is. guns can't leave a gun shop. (which is just as well, as there are ninja weapons. And again archery. (Gooo Katniss Everdeen).

But yea in Utah, people are allowed to carry concealed guns, Utah is also one of the rare places in America where firing squad is still an option. (It's based on the Mormon belief, that there are some crimes that not even the blood of Christ can shed), Capital murder is one of them. The Perp must preform blood attonement.. So therefore blood letting is preformed. The condemned man sits in a seat, and is fired on by 5 shooters, 4 guns are loaded, so the shooter won't have that feeling of shooting down an unarmed man, but nobody knows who. The last one was executed in the 90's.

But teachers need to feel safe, for their pupils and themselves. Theyre parents, they have loved ones. Still peffere that mental health professionals did their jobs (impossible job, though mental illness is very very difficult to diagnost, which makes it a very fearful disorder, not much is know about this organ. Like with heart problems one can say oh gee there seems to be a increase in the viscosity of your blood (gooey goo, collestrol, drugs, hardened arteries, toxins (ie booze), chemicals from dangerous industrial jobs). And they're all weakening your heart. Or one could like look at the lungs and say oh my stop smoking, your lungs are clogged with smokers lungs. Or one could say oh my look at this scar, and stitch up. No so with the head. What does one do right? crack open the skull like a walnut?

Non letheal self defense devices ie stun guns (tasers), are not an option with a nut with an AK47 mowing down workplace, school, hospital, etc.

But even if it's not done with a gun, there was that case where a rash of young unemployable fustrated youths decided to ram their cars into people in Japan, and Japan was ground Zero for these knife attacks (they've stopped), but the trend was picked up in China. (just recently a kid went nuts with a knife and sliced up a bunch of people, because he couldn't find a stable job. (It's very common in China, to fire people before the benifits kick in, or fire people once their usefullness has expired, especially if they're rural strangers).

As for the Aryan knight Anders shooting up a youth camp for the Liberal party. It was purely an evil racist act ala Timothy McVeigh, against da man. It was a planned political statement.... It wasn't mental illness... As was McVeigh's rebellion statement.

#19 Louis23

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Posted 06 January 2013 - 10:33 AM

Unbelievably stupid to rely on a constitution written more than 200 years ago when weapons took minutes to recharge. Now we got AK's and all of those deadly weapons and people claim constitutionality of the right of owning a weapon. Constitutions aren't divine texts coming from the heaven. They are written by humans, and need adaptation to new times. People die everyday in the name of a constitution that was written when weapons were weaker than fists.