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Is The Time Right For A Rebuild?


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#1 kehatch

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Posted 01 February 2013 - 02:42 PM

I know it is only 5-games in and we are a couple of months away from the deadline. But if we continue to lose is the time finally right to rebuild?

A Deep Draft

This is being touted as one of the strongest drafts in years. I would never intentionally tank. But picking in the top 5 this season wouldn't be the worst thing for the Flames. Neither would acquiring as many picks as you can get.

The New Guys are Taking Over

Our best players have been Hudler, Cervenka, Backlund, Brodie, Wideman, Glencross, Tanguay, etc. Guys that are young or locked in long term. Plus we have players like Baertschi and Horak that are showing they are ready for prime time. We are starting to show the pieces we need to have to survive without yesterdays top players.

Contracts

Iginla's contract expires at season end. Kipper's, Cammalleri's, and Bouwmeester's contracts all expire the season after. So we either extend them (if we even have the option) and keep rebuilding around the same core. Or we lose them for nothing. Or we move them for assets.

Other Teams

Washington, Philly, Carolina, NYR, LA, etc are all contending teams that are struggling early. These are teams that could soon be desperate enough to pay big for some of the assets we have.

Meanwhile other teams you would expect to be sellers are doing well. Meaning we may be one of the few teams in selling mode further increasing the value of our assets.

Add major injuries to the mix (ie Philly) and the market is in our favor.

Depth Players

In addition to the big guns we also have guys like Butler, Sarich, Jackman, Stempniak, Smith, Stajan, etc that other teams may be interested to help them in a long playoff run.

Buy Out

The shortened season combined with the buy-out could make some teams willing to take a run with a player like Cammalleri or Stajan. Their cap doesn't matter this season, and they can be bought out next. All of a sudden guys you couldn't trade are potentially decent assets.

If the Flames acquire some top NHL ready prospects, pick top 5, and stock pile picks for the next draft how much better off will they be? I know a lot of people on here hate the idea of a rebuild. But can the Flames really let all of these assets expire? Or commit long term contracts and cap to depreciating assets?

#2 geos

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Posted 01 February 2013 - 02:53 PM

Few considerations:

1 - Do we want to invest ton of cash in Iggy? Shane Doan got $21.2M over 4 years. Iggy will get more in free agency. Are we prepared to invest $7M for another 4-6 years in Iggy?

2 - Is Iggy or Kipper worth anything today, as rentals? Sure they are, but not much. Not as much as they were two years ago.

3 - Who else can we deal for picks/prospects? Limited in terms of actually getting something. Can we deal all of these people can expect to not be awful?

#3 kehatch

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Posted 01 February 2013 - 03:01 PM

Few considerations:

1 - Do we want to invest ton of cash in Iggy? Shane Doan got $21.2M over 4 years. Iggy will get more in free agency. Are we prepared to invest $7M for another 4-6 years in Iggy?


I think you are looking at 7mx4 to sign Iginla. If he even agrees to stay with Calgary and I think that is far from a given.

2 - Is Iggy or Kipper worth anything today, as rentals? Sure they are, but not much. Not as much as they were two years ago.


You can't get what you could previously get for Iginla/Kipper. But I think you can still get a very solid return for both.

3 - Who else can we deal for picks/prospects? Limited in terms of actually getting something. Can we deal all of these people can expect to not be awful?


  • I think you can get a strong return for Iginla, Kipper, and Bouwmeester
  • I think you can get a return worth getting for for Cammalleri, Sarich, Stempniak, Jackman,Butler, and Smith.
  • I think you might be able to get something for Stajan and Babchuk depending on how they play

As for can you move them without being awful? Probably not. But you aren't moving them all unless you are awful to begin with so ....

#4 CastleMania

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Posted 01 February 2013 - 03:11 PM

It's time to do something different. I mean, I want to see what happens over the next 5 games, but I'm at the point that I would like to see something happen (yes, I've finally reached the end of my rope).

#5 andymo

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Posted 01 February 2013 - 03:41 PM

The most crucial thing for Calgary right now is that they don't put all their chips in to 'save the season' if our problems continue. We cannot afford to give up picks, prospects and valuable young players in an effort to make the playoffs but I really wouldn't be surprised if we do. Winning is crucial, but if you keep trading the future to win now, the team will always be in the same situation.

But trading Kipper and Iginla is a tricky one. For two players who have shown such loyalty and excellence it would have to be on the proviso they were good with the move. So, what would you want in return, what do you think you you would realistically get and who do you think would be potential trading partners?

#6 swtrooper

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Posted 01 February 2013 - 03:42 PM

I wouldnt be apposed to it. We do have young players that can come in/up and play like Baertschi, Horak, Brodie, Street, Breen. I also think there are players on the team that can be key to the future in Hudler, Cervenka, Backlund, Glencross.
We do have goalies to fall back on or get into the rotation sometime in the future with Ramo, Brossit (spelled wrong i think), Irving. Kipper isnt getting any younger and he may be ok but we have to start thinking of life after Kipper and I think he could be moved and help a team who is taking a playoff run. I would be ok with moving players like Cammy, Gio, Bouwmeester for picks we may need to help a rebuild. Dont think there would be any or much interest in players like Stajan, Stempniak, Butler, Sarich but you never know.
Bouwmeester im iffy on. I think there is alot more there then what we seen in past years. He is wayyy overpaid but is a good defensemanand not too old. If we cant sign him for cheap I would say let em go for picks or prospects.
On Iginla, I wanna keep him if the price is right. Hopefully we can sign him for a discount because he isnt worth what he was a few years ago and its not like he s just gonna go on a scoring explosion. Not too sure about trading him cause I dont think we are gonna get what all Flames fans think we can get for him and he may not wanna come back after leaving like alot of fans think. I really think we will see one of two things: we will trade him at the deadline and get ripped off in the return or we will pay him way too much to stay here for the rest of his career. All in all I wanna see him retire here and not play with another team, I think that kind of loyalty is gone when players like him are gone.

#7 C_worthy

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Posted 01 February 2013 - 04:19 PM

Your question was: is it time?

The answer to that today is no - it is too early in the saeon.

However, unless the Flames find a way to completely right the ship (I don't mean 9th, I mean solisly in 6th or 7th and stay there), then the time is right at the deadline.

This is the perfect year for a massive and quick rebuild - great draft talent, short season, plenty of vets to trade, plenty of other talent to keep (Glencross, Hudler, Cervenka, Backlund, Baertschi, Brodie, Wideman, Giordano and others) so that we don't Oiler-suck for years.

#8 Flyerfan52

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Posted 01 February 2013 - 04:27 PM

I know it is only 5-games in and we are a couple of months away from the deadline. But if we continue to lose is the time finally right to rebuild?

A Deep Draft

This is being touted as one of the strongest drafts in years. I would never intentionally tank. But picking in the top 5 this season wouldn't be the worst thing for the Flames. Neither would acquiring as many picks as you can get.

The New Guys are Taking Over

Our best players have been Hudler, Cervenka, Backlund, Brodie, Wideman, Glencross, Tanguay, etc. Guys that are young or locked in long term. Plus we have players like Baertschi and Horak that are showing they are ready for prime time. We are starting to show the pieces we need to have to survive without yesterdays top players.

Contracts

Iginla's contract expires at season end. Kipper's, Cammalleri's, and Bouwmeester's contracts all expire the season after. So we either extend them (if we even have the option) and keep rebuilding around the same core. Or we lose them for nothing. Or we move them for assets.

Other Teams

Washington, Philly, Carolina, NYR, LA, etc are all contending teams that are struggling early. These are teams that could soon be desperate enough to pay big for some of the assets we have.

Meanwhile other teams you would expect to be sellers are doing well. Meaning we may be one of the few teams in selling mode further increasing the value of our assets.

Add major injuries to the mix (ie Philly) and the market is in our favor.

Depth Players

In addition to the big guns we also have guys like Butler, Sarich, Jackman, Stempniak, Smith, Stajan, etc that other teams may be interested to help them in a long playoff run.

Buy Out

The shortened season combined with the buy-out could make some teams willing to take a run with a player like Cammalleri or Stajan. Their cap doesn't matter this season, and they can be bought out next. All of a sudden guys you couldn't trade are potentially decent assets.

If the Flames acquire some top NHL ready prospects, pick top 5, and stock pile picks for the next draft how much better off will they be? I know a lot of people on here hate the idea of a rebuild. But can the Flames really let all of these assets expire? Or commit long term contracts and cap to depreciating assets?

Deep draft:
It's actually talked about for the 1-5 players being fairly = in talent & likely to be NHLers out of the gate. The depth factor is most higher picks are expected to play @ least some NHL games.

The New Guys Are Taking Over:
If they have we should finish stronger without the old guard holding them back. :) Puts us further from that 1/1. Or trade all of them for picks/youth to increase the chance of drafting high or gathering support for when the draft picks mature.

Contracts:
If Iggy waives there will probably be a reasonable expectation from the other team he'll likely re-sign there. Unless that team sees him as the missing piece to a SC a few months rental isn't likely to fetch much. Kipper, Cammi & JBo they know they'll get @ least next season so they probably bring a higher return.

Other teams:
If they pay big for assets expect any picks to be lower then current face value when those players do improve either injury depleted teams or those that need an infusion of fresher talent. Conversely, if they send roster players instead of picks the added players could/should be expected to move the Flames further from the basement/high pick.

Depth players:
Usually added near the trade deadline. The return for the lower line players you mention are usually later round picks (3rd tops, normally later) or B/C type prospects they have little faith in.

Buy out:
Even rich teams won't be jumping for joy @ being the lucky 1 to pay assets now for a player they intend to buy out @ the end of the season. It would have to be a difference maker to rate both & Cammi & Stajan would have to have 1 heck of a season until the deadline for a GM to see them as worth current assets now & $s to dump later.

So the Flames should end up stronger from the infusion of young talent (& what you see as the removal of deadwood) or devalue the draft picks by strengthening the other team(s).

Word it any was you want (rebuild, crash & burn, build from the ditch, etc.) you've got the same result. It can be long & painfully embarrassing finishing @ the bottom for years on end or you might luck out by getting superb NHL players to add to a previously drafted depth chart we don't have.
*****************************************************************************************************
I have no problem with moving current assets for other assets (what my proposals are usually centered around) because that's a reload. Adding pieces you are unlikely to get other ways even if you weaken a current strength can result in a stronger overall team.
That means finishing higher rather then lower.

Just MO of course but losing breeds losing. After a while it becomes easier I hear. :)

#9 ucwm

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Posted 01 February 2013 - 06:31 PM

I think this year is definately a great year to rebuild. As good as Kipper has been in his career he can't get the job done with our current roster in front of him. With this year being shortened it would help lesson the pain of having a terrible team. It would be nice to resign Iggy but would he want to stay during a major rebuild? I doubt it. We have some potential talent coming up in goal with Brossoit and Gilles. Ramo and Irving can battle it out for the back up. I don't have much faith in either one of them making it as a #1. This could also be the year to trade Bo and Tangs.
Calgary has some decent talent coming up with Grandlund,Street and possibly Gaudreau. With Backs, Bear, Glencross,Gio,Brodie etc. It wouldn't take too long to get back in the hunt.

#10 JTech780

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Posted 01 February 2013 - 07:03 PM

The big thing with being able to trade Cammalleri and Bouwmeester is that Calgary can retain salary in a trade, which will maximize the return that Calgary will get for these two over priced veterans.

I really like this idea as it means that Calgary doesn't have to take back dead weight.

If Calgary does go the way of a rebuild they should have enough cap space to eat half of those contracts without too much trouble.

Now to the question at hand... Yes! This team hasn't showed me any improvement from the last years. The will and drive to be a winner just isn't there. They have tried changing management, coaches and role players. Year after still the same result, no willingness to put in a full 60 minute effort night in night out. IMO the only reason Calgary has finished so close to the playoffs the last couple if years is Kipper.

It's time to shake things up. Lets move Iginla. Lets move Cammalleri (who I was against bringing back in the first place). Lets move Bouwmeester. Start fresh see who steps up to form the new core and go from there.

Does Calgary need to finish last place 5 years in a row like Edmonton to get back on top... no. But something has to change, because what has been going on in Calgary the last 4 years is the very definition of insanity.

#11 s4xon

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Posted 01 February 2013 - 08:05 PM

A full rebuild seems to be a distant remedy, at least to the owners. Maybe it is time for Kipper and Iggy to move on, but agreeing with C_W, the time isn't right now this very second. However, this shortened season may be a pivotal season to make some very substantial housekeeping changes ie Kipper, Iginla, Bouw, Tanguay and Cammy trades for picks and young top end talent. The biggest negative I see for a "full rebuild" is the need for a fire sale for 90% of the roster and a dunk in the tank for half a decade.

A retool has been in the works for a year and a half with Feaster at the helm. Drafting has improved in strides, and many moves have been made to acquire new talent for the team, most of it working out. But, no one said this retooling didn't include the likes of Iggy, Kipper, Tanguay, Cammy, Bouw, and Gio. Movement of these contracts, to me, wouldn't implement a full on rebuild. Depending upon Feaster's negotiation skills, should return some young and talented gems.

Veteran presence is needed on any team, rebuilding or not. While Jiri Hudler is 29, he would be a great veteran presence on this team. His Detroit roots have shown skill and on ice confidence with the puck, and has shown to work great with chair and staj. But, I would still move Stajan, it's time to part ways. Roman Cervenka is 27, but depending upon how this season pans out (if he starts to produce, or if he wants out of the NHL and back into Europe) he could provide a veteran presence alongside Jiri. Wideman is here to stay, and we need the offense on the back end.

Calgary has some very promising prospects heading our way in a very short time. For netminders Gillies, Brossoit, and the long awaited question mark in Ramo. Forwards include Gaudreau, Markus Granlund, hopefully a properly developed Jankowski. Defense includes the hard hitting Sieloff, Wotherspoon, and potentially Ryan Culkin. The problem in Calgary has been giving these young guys top line minutes in the big league. Playing Sven on the 4th line for 5 minutes a game isn't helping his development. Hartley said last year he had no worries or competition, but Sven was placed on the top line with more minutes and was producing. Look at Stajan's scoring stint at the end of last year, he was given a top line role, and even he put the puck in the net.

To me, Rebuild is a bad term. Rebuild = Firesale. Retool sounds more appropriate, and I'll stick with it. This team needs a tooling overhaul, but we have the tools to do so.

#12 Flyerfan52

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Posted 01 February 2013 - 08:31 PM

I think this year is definately a great year to rebuild. As good as Kipper has been in his career he can't get the job done with our current roster in front of him. With this year being shortened it would help lesson the pain of having a terrible team. It would be nice to resign Iggy but would he want to stay during a major rebuild? I doubt it. We have some potential talent coming up in goal with Brossoit and Gilles. Ramo and Irving can battle it out for the back up. I don't have much faith in either one of them making it as a #1. This could also be the year to trade Bo and Tangs.
Calgary has some decent talent coming up with Grandlund,Street and possibly Gaudreau. With Backs, Bear, Glencross,Gio,Brodie etc. It wouldn't take too long to get back in the hunt.

A fair bit of "potential" talent mentioned & later "decent" talent. With all the "current" talent traded & knowing a ride through the ditch is coming others might decide they don't enjoy life in Calgary enough to deal with that for a few years.
Those with NMC/NTCs may decide if Iggy/Kipper are gone to pursue the dream of a SC elsewhere they might be better off pursuing that themselves. Those "not too long" years are all years guys like Glencross, Gio, Wideman, Hudler know they don't have a whiff of the Cup so the line for trade requests could be long. & everyone is armed with a NTC/NMC to prevent Feaster from getting the best return possible.

#13 The_People1

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Posted 01 February 2013 - 09:14 PM

I think it's too early in the season to be rebuilding. We either should've traded Kipper before the season began, or we now must wait until trade deadline for contending teams to get desperate.

When is this season's trade deadline anyways?

#14 C_worthy

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Posted 01 February 2013 - 09:31 PM

pretty sure it's April 3rd

#15 Carty

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Posted 01 February 2013 - 09:44 PM

When is this season's trade deadline anyways?

pretty sure it's April 3rd


Indeed it is... http://www.sportsnet...es_2013_season/

#16 The_People1

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Posted 01 February 2013 - 10:56 PM

Indeed it is... http://www.sportsnet...es_2013_season/

Alrighty then. We will trade Iginla and Kipper on April 1st and everyone will think its an April Fools joke.

#17 kehatch

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Posted 01 February 2013 - 11:52 PM

A fair bit of "potential" talent mentioned & later "decent" talent. With all the "current" talent traded & knowing a ride through the ditch is coming others might decide they don't enjoy life in Calgary enough to deal with that for a few years.
Those with NMC/NTCs may decide if Iggy/Kipper are gone to pursue the dream of a SC elsewhere they might be better off pursuing that themselves. Those "not too long" years are all years guys like Glencross, Gio, Wideman, Hudler know they don't have a whiff of the Cup so the line for trade requests could be long. & everyone is armed with a NTC/NMC to prevent Feaster from getting the best return possible.


Kipper's NMC is expired. Iggy still has one though. But I think it is likely he waives if we are clearly out of the playoffs. Who knows though.

#18 Zirakzigil

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Posted 02 February 2013 - 12:02 AM

Wont happen unless ownership has a change in mindset. And I dont see that happening unless Iginla requests to be traded.

#19 cross16

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Posted 02 February 2013 - 08:28 AM

I agree with what others have said, not right now but this season is the season to do it if the Flames arn't in the playoffs come the deadline. The Flames cannot risk having Iginla walk away for nothing which I personally think he will if this team doesn't make the playoffs regardless of what the Flames want to pay him. You have an opportunity to pick up probably a good 2-3 top prospects if you trade Iginla, Kipper and draft in the top 5 probably 2 of which you can inject into your lineup next year. I would also look at it this way, Flames right now are not playing well (but they are competitive) and are getting nothing out of Iginla, Cammy and Kipper. I think that has shown you that the Flames now have enough secondary pieces that if you were to swap those 3 out for maybe lesser players right now, you still will be competitive. If you want to continue to insist that Iginla, Cammy, and Kipper are the way to win now and for the next few years Flames are heading in the wrong direction. I get that "rebuild" is a foul word but that's only becuase people view "rebuild" as what the Oilers are doing but you don't have to go through that long of a rebuild if you are smart about it.

Edit - One of the reasons I also think it is a great year to have a rebuild is the top 5 of the draft is stacked with exactly what the Flames need. Your either going to have your choice of 3 very good centers (Mackinnon, Barkov, Monahan), top D or an elite talent, all three things the Flames desperately need. I'm not advocating tanking whatsoever but I definetly think its time for the Flames to look at their team come the deadline and finally made that call that if they are not a playoff team this year they won't with this current roster and it's time to go a completely new direction. There may be other years where that would not be a wise decision but with the quality at the top of the draft, the matching with what the Flames need, and with Iginla's expiring contract it all comes together for a pretty obvious solution. Again, pending the Flames are not a playoff team at the time.

#20 Mattman456

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Posted 02 February 2013 - 10:33 AM

I personally think its time to let Iginla go.
1. He deserves a cup and doesn't owe us anything anymore.
2. The retrurn might be high. Look what Anahiem got when they traded Pronger at 35.
Don Cherry mentioned last Saturday that the flames should pull a "Ray Bourque" and trade Iggy to a team that is not only favored but isn't cocky (kings)
But pulling a Bourque means two things.
1. No key pieces ex. Seguin, McDonugh, Hartnell etc. becuase then that just leaves a hole where they wanted to fill it.
2. A first round pick from the team that Feaster thinks will win the cup would be pointless becuase if the do win the cup then we end up with a 30th pick... Kinda useless thing to get back for Iggy.

It would have to be lots of future 1st's and a very high rookie that is not on the team yet.
Also it should most likely be at the trade deadline to kinda see which team is good and could use him.