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      Insults/Name-calling will not be tolerated   11/19/2016

      Tensions are high around this team and its fans.  It is very obvious that everyone here is passionate about the Flames, and has an opinion about what should be done to fix our unstable ship.  Stating your opinion is fine, it's exactly what these forums are for.   However, the name-calling and the insults are not required.   All insults/name-calling will be met with a zero-tolerance approach, regardless if you are a new person to the forums, or have been around since these forums began.   First-offenses will be met with a moderator-needs-to-approve-your-post for 3 days Second offenses will be met with a week-long suspension Third offenses will result in a perma-ban   If you have any questions regarding this policy, or would like to voice your concern about it, you are absolutely free to contact me directly.   We all love this team, and this game.  Let's continue to keep it civil around here.   --  Kulstad

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lordxan

Quarter Season Mark

To move or not to move? That is the question.   25 members have voted

  1. 1. Do the Flames pull the trigger now?

    • Yes, now is the time
      15
    • No, Stay the course
      10

Please sign in or register to vote in this poll.

47 posts in this topic

Ok Flames have officially reached the quarter season maker and sit 14th in the west, 5 pts out of 8th with a game or two in hand on most teams above them in the standings.

The team has played quite well with a black cloud of not being able to finish, so it could be a simple matter of chemistry or a straight up bad luck spell.

However, the past few games seem to be running kind of like last year hot and cold with the inevitable inability to win the key game that would vault them into contention.

Adding to the complexity is we have developed a very good core of young prospects that will and are starting to be phased into the lineup, so protecting them from being traded should be a priority for the organization. Hartley seems to have improved many aspects of the teams game too, but they just can't win. The team has a few glaring holes we expected from the start and could be the cause of the teams inability to finish (of note size and lack of legitimate No 1 Ctr)

Do the Flames make the hard decisions now or wait it out and see how the season unfolds? Sometimes making a move destroys the team chemistry that is building and sometimes not making a move you maintain the status quot and nothing really changes. The latter we have seen for the past 3 seasons and has resulted in missed postseasons.

So the question is:

NOW WHAT?

I for one think they should make a move and go hard after ROR giving his apparent sudden availability and our past trading history with Col, there is a decent possibility.

BUT!

One must keep in mind, Col wants good young prospects/young roster players in return, this brings back to my original comment, this organization must/should protect their crop of young talent so how much is too much for ROR, is it worth the cost now (he is young too so there is some long lasting potential in him).

Should Feaster make moves now? Probably.

Should he get ROR? probably IF the cost is not ridiculous.

Should he do something, anything now? probably, it's a short season and the quarter marker, time is now to make s move or two otherwise the risk of a tear it all down style rebuild becomes ever greater.

Please add your reason(s) to your poll choice by posting comments.

I would very much like to see what other Flames fans think.

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I didn’t vote for the simple reason to me it is not that cut and dry. Each year we do the same thing and expect a different result. This revolving door crap of coaches and players isn’t working, we don’t need to rebuild this team but recreate it. Finding a balance is IMO is a better solution. If we had last year’s defensive GA average (14th) with this seasons GF (8th) we would be one of the more competitive /balanced teams and ROR wouldn’t even be a thought. Find the players to balance or compliment the system or identity you want. So is a piece of that equation ROR to balance or recreate this team. If so is the ROI worth the reward than I would say sure.

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Depends on what type of deal. I am not in favor of any deal that just helps the Flames now and not for the next several years, but i'm fine with deals that have an immediate impact but also beneift the Flames long term. For example no I'm not really a fan of acquring O'Rielly because I think you're going to have to give up future pieces to acquire him, if you could get him for a more veteran player, Cammy for example (i know that's not realistic i'm just making a point) i'm fine with that but i'm not a fan of sending something like a Brodie or Backlund over there. I know i've been saying this for a while but I thin it's time to stop propping this team up. There were changes made in the offseason but the core issues still remain and until they are addressed I think you are wasting your time trying to turn this team into some it is clearly not. There are just too many issues in my mind to address them all and make this current version a contending team, but like I said if you want to address the needs with the future in mind i'm fine with that.

I'm a far bigger fan of talking of shedding some money and acquiring some future assets than I am trying to fix the current roster. That's not saying i'm a blow up guy i'm just a fna of acquiring assets and I think the best way for the Flames to do that is to trade some of their more veteran players.

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I think we need to sit on what we have. I don't want us to be buyers unless its for a young player. And I still don't think we have a chance at ROR. As far as selling I think its a little premature. Prices aren't quite at there peak yet and we still have a decent chance at turning things around and making the playoffs.

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I voted stay the course. If there is a hockey trade to be made, fine go for it. The last thing I want to see is this team become buyers. In all honesty, I'd rather see a few vets on there way out in favor of youth / picks.

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I also voted Stay course, as I have like what I have seen and think its only time for our luck to turn around. Also, would rather see hockey trades or getting prospects/picks than giving them out.

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Before the Yotes game today, we were 3 points out of 8th, with games in hand one most teams, so no....that's no time to start blowing things up...we're within reach right now.

I say it should come down to the trade deadline and where we're sitting which is usually the 3/4 mark. The problem in the past has been our reluctancy to pull the trigger at the deadline because we're usually sitting within reach. I say if the deadline is approaching, and we're 5+ points out, time to start making these big moves.

This is a great season to do some big things, it's a shortened season, and October will be the start of the first full season of hockey for 2 years, great time for a fresh start.

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The hell with it, pull the trigger! This team shows no effort. Three pts from the bottom of the West.

The sooner we realize we need to make drastic changes the better we will be sooner. We ve been talking about weather or not this is the thing to do or not for years and yet we are still the same piss poor team

Anyone thinking we are gonna make the playoffs this year are seriously fooling yourself!

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The hell with it, pull the trigger! This team shows no effort. Three pts from the bottom of the West.

The sooner we realize we need to make drastic changes the better we will be sooner. We ve been talking about weather or not this is the thing to do or not for years and yet we are still the same piss poor team

Anyone thinking we are gonna make the playoffs this year are seriously fooling yourself!

Just noticed...

a - flames fan

b - lives in buffalo

You are an inspiration. I will never complain about anything ever again.

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The hell with it, pull the trigger! This team shows no effort. Three pts from the bottom of the West.

The sooner we realize we need to make drastic changes the better we will be sooner. We ve been talking about weather or not this is the thing to do or not for years and yet we are still the same piss poor team

Anyone thinking we are gonna make the playoffs this year are seriously fooling yourself!

We may make th playoffs, but we'd be out in the first round so it's not worth it. Time to have a changing of the guard. Fire sale! Yard sale! Garage sale, whatever you want to call it, get it done and over with so the fans have something to look forward too.

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We've changed up the coaching. We've changed some of the players around the edges. Same sort of inconsistent effort, no resiliency.

Time to rock the core of the team. Need a big deal to shake things up.

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Right now, I'd say stay the course. With all the confusion, we don't really know what we've got. Of course, I think anyone should be up for trade, if the return is positive for us (and weighted towards the future, rather than the present). But between bad contracts and age, I can't really see any of our main players getting a great return. I don't want any shake-up trades if the purpose is to win now, and I absolutely don't want to see us sacrificing the future to win now.

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The cap is designed to keep everyone in the hunt for the playoffs, so being a win or two out makes it look more promising than it sometimes may be.

I would wait until the week of the trade deadline to see where I stand and I wouldn't let a "few points out" scenario prevent me from making the right calculations. If the team doesn't have the necessary tools to win "today" then I work at making it better for "tomorrow".

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We've changed up the coaching. We've changed some of the players around the edges. Same sort of inconsistent effort, no resiliency.

Time to rock the core of the team. Need a big deal to shake things up.

This is it, the team has toyed with minor changes, we have changed everything BUT the Core and we keep getting the same results. One would think, after 3 years of the same results, keeping only one constant (the core) the obvious issue is the constant (the core).

Been bashed to hell in this forum last year for not being supportive, been a flames fan since they beat Mlt for the cup back in 89, so my loyalty runs deep. Having said that, I'm not a blind supporter of crap, what we have seen is crap, the window for this core has CLOSED 3 years ago, Feaster, it's:

TIME

Time for a changing of the guard, while the core in total is not necessarily the issue, the bulk of it IS. Time for a quick and HONEST evaluation of the guys, cut those who are not fitting in and actually MAKE some tough decisions and move out some of the old core NOW.

While making changes now will probably not help this year, it will position the team for next year by getting a jump start now.

First and foremost, the new guys have done well, so those were moves in the right direction but this team NEEDS to commit to change, what I mean by that is change the core, keep the new additions move the majority of the old core, while not all can be moved now, start and by next year you have something to work with.

My thoughts, make a move with Col go get O'Riley and plan on him to be the #2 Ctr, then try to get a legitimate #1 Ctr if and when one comes available (trade, FA, draft...what ever). O'Riley will do as a #1 Ctr in the short term and be one hell of a #2 moving forward.

Start building up that all important Ctr position vice patch working it with converted wingers.

PLEASE dump Stajan and Comeau. Stajan still holds himself as a defeated personality, Comeau is simply ignorant of the fact he sucks. And yes, I do know Stajan has done well BUT fact is he has NO finish and to be honest, keeping him is nothing more than settling for the next best thing. People wonder why this team lacks effort, well it is coming directly from Mgt, they settle for 2nd best so too will the team and they will settle for putting forth just enough effort to keep employment and nothing else. Proof of this is in the pudding, last 3 yrs and the team's current performance is the ONLY proof needed.

Go for gold, get O'Riley and then strive for more, bigger, better, faster.

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The cap is designed to keep everyone in the hunt for the playoffs, so being a win or two out makes it look more promising than it sometimes may be.

I would wait until the week of the trade deadline to see where I stand and I wouldn't let a "few points out" scenario prevent me from making the right calculations. If the team doesn't have the necessary tools to win "today" then I work at making it better for "tomorrow".

Why?

This is just settling and encouraging piss poor results. We as fans have allowed this crappy performance to happen because of this very attitude right here, that and blind faith and loyalty.

Why wait to get better and prolong the improvement process, start now and reap the benefits sooner so if I get the tools today then I can be better tomorrow, otherwise I get the tools tomorrow and I won't be better until the following day.

It Makes no sense to wait.

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Why?

This is just settling and encouraging piss poor results. We as fans have allowed this crappy performance to happen because of this very attitude right here, that and blind faith and loyalty.

Why wait to get better and prolong the improvement process, start now and reap the benefits sooner so if I get the tools today then I can be better tomorrow, otherwise I get the tools tomorrow and I won't be better until the following day.

It Makes no sense to wait.

I guess I didn't specify enough of what I meant as I was just putting in a quick post.

I've been behind changing the culture and attitude (core) of this team for 3 to 4 years now since it was getting clear that it wasn't going past the first round, that being if it even slipped into the playoffs. It's not been a popular theme on this board over those years as it's perceived as throwing in the towel. I've never seen it that way though, I see it as much like you stated, getting a jump start toward a better future and your still building to contend for a championship- it's just not the next championship up for grabs.

My saying wait right at this very moment is that today's market is smaller than during trade deadline week. If your looking to do trades with the future in mind those future assets aren't needed in the pocket right at this very moment. If I can get better value from higher demand at the deadline then I wait until that time...unless the team is sitting very comfortably in the playoff mix with no signs of letting up.

Going after ROR right now in my mind would cost to much from what is needed to build that future contending team.

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The bean counters on all teams are probably busier then they've been since the last stoppage. More so as @ least then salaries were reduced/escrowed. A $6 million drop in the cap can lead to that.

A check of random teams on Capgeek shows that even most that look well situated have cap space but lots of spots to fill next year. A trade would probably have to be $ for $ to allow for their own RFAs & the UFAs they'd like to keep.

This trade deadline the most valuable trade bait are likely to be the FAs (both kinds) that the team can release after the season.

Certain teams like the Isles are probably well positioned to trade little to gain talent with a contract other teams want/need to shed but that's the exception rather then the rule.

****************************************************************************************************

On UFAs & RFAs it'll be a buyer's market as few teams can afford larger contracts & the current team that has some of those RFAs would be hard pressed to meet an OS.

The UFAs can @ least insist on short term but the RFAs it's take these $s or re-sign with those your team offers.

The smart agents saw that coming & got the term/$s during UFA madness & tried to get their clients signed & RFAs re-signed before the stoppage.

It might also be a reason the Avalanche weren't in a panic to get O'Reilly's name on another contract.

***************************************************************************************************

We might have to start including stuff like this in proposals. If the revenue increases to the degree imagined during negotiations & the cap goes back up we can go back to the old standards.

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I guess I didn't specify enough of what I meant as I was just putting in a quick post.

I've been behind changing the culture and attitude (core) of this team for 3 to 4 years now since it was getting clear that it wasn't going past the first round, that being if it even slipped into the playoffs. It's not been a popular theme on this board over those years as it's perceived as throwing in the towel. I've never seen it that way though, I see it as much like you stated, getting a jump start toward a better future and your still building to contend for a championship- it's just not the next championship up for grabs.

My saying wait right at this very moment is that today's market is smaller than during trade deadline week. If your looking to do trades with the future in mind those future assets aren't needed in the pocket right at this very moment. If I can get better value from higher demand at the deadline then I wait until that time...unless the team is sitting very comfortably in the playoff mix with no signs of letting up.

Going after ROR right now in my mind would cost to much from what is needed to build that future contending team.

Ok fair points all round thanks for that, makes sense to me!

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I've been a stay the course person for a very long time, but I've since come to realize that a dead horse has been beaten on for at least 2 years now. Now I'm finding my frustration has swayed me into the trade the core side of things. I cheer for the logo on the front of the jersey not the name on the back, it sounds cliche but its how I feel. And no, I'm not jumping off the bandwagon, far from it. I only want to see this team succeed and I'm all for whatever is needed to accomplish this.

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It's been stay the course for so long now that i forgot what change was with the Calgary Shames. Time to rebuild this team into a Stanley contender and stop living in mediocrity. Trade Iggy and Kipper if we can get anything for them while we still can. I am still and always will be a flames fan but this season once again prove's that we need a reboot of this franchise.

Also time to fire Ken King and some of the rest of the Upper management as we can see it's not the coach or the revolving door on players. It's just not working and we need new blood up top as well as down at the bottom with leadership. A new direction is needed.

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The cap is designed to keep everyone in the hunt for the playoffs, so being a win or two out makes it look more promising than it sometimes may be.

This is a good point. The true indicator is how the team does year after year. The Flames, who are constantly on the outside of the playoff positions looking in, even if just by a few points, clearly aren't good enough. Plain and simple.

And just to clarify my earlier post, I'm against trading the core or making shake-up trades if it's a desperation move to salvage the current season. That's what Darryl Sutter did before he left, and it left us in a jam for a couple seasons after (and didn't improve the team at all). I'm totally for trading core guys, as long as the return will improve us in the coming seasons (e.g., high draft picks, good young players). The question is can we expect to get any great pieces back from trading our core guys at this point? Or are we pretty much fated to build through the draft now?

Another thing to think about: does trading the core, to most people, just mean trading Iggy? Because we have changed the rest of the core over the last several years (Regher, Phaneuf out; JBo in) and it hasn't helped. I can't see trading Kipper or Gio improving the team (though I understand doing it, if the plan is to tank the next couple seasons). And I think most people have been fine with the idea of a JBo trade for a couple years now. So does it just come down to Iggy? I don't want to see Iggy go, because unlike some, I don't think he's the root of an attitude/effort problem (I think the team just isn't that good, and Iggy hasn't been good enough to carry the team by himself for many years now). But I'd understand a trade, if we're getting something good in return. The question is, what can we expect to get back this season (considering Iggy's contract is up, he's old, and only has one goal so far), and would it be worth it?

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This is a good point. The true indicator is how the team does year after year. The Flames, who are constantly on the outside of the playoff positions looking in, even if just by a few points, clearly aren't good enough. Plain and simple.

And just to clarify my earlier post, I'm against trading the core or making shake-up trades if it's a desperation move to salvage the current season. That's what Darryl Sutter did before he left, and it left us in a jam for a couple seasons after (and didn't improve the team at all). I'm totally for trading core guys, as long as the return will improve us in the coming seasons (e.g., high draft picks, good young players). The question is can we expect to get any great pieces back from trading our core guys at this point? Or are we pretty much fated to build through the draft now?

Another thing to think about: does trading the core, to most people, just mean trading Iggy? Because we have changed the rest of the core over the last several years (Regher, Phaneuf out; JBo in) and it hasn't helped. I can't see trading Kipper or Gio improving the team (though I understand doing it, if the plan is to tank the next couple seasons). And I think most people have been fine with the idea of a JBo trade for a couple years now. So does it just come down to Iggy? I don't want to see Iggy go, because unlike some, I don't think he's the root of an attitude/effort problem (I think the team just isn't that good, and Iggy hasn't been good enough to carry the team by himself for many years now). But I'd understand a trade, if we're getting something good in return. The question is, what can we expect to get back this season (considering Iggy's contract is up, he's old, and only has one goal so far), and would it be worth it?

Some points are good here, particularly the identifying of the core having been changed. I'll bite and say yes the cor has been changed somewhat.

HOWEVER,

The core is now different, so guys like Cammy, Tangs and Glen X should be included as some of the core players. Basically any of the guys around over the past 3-4 years would be the core guys and yes thins includes guys (like Cammy) who we brought back into the fold.

Having said that, I do think trades are needed and fast. Not rash knee jerk trades but trades which are well thought out and yes I do expect us to over pay to accomplish these trades, but they will be well worth it in the long haul if trades were conducted towards a view of the future.

What I'm driving at is trade for some young blood, we will over pay but the long term rewards will be worth the costs. More and more I'm thinking O'Riley is something the Mgt should look at pulling off. Nail down that 2nd line Ctr spot. He can fill in as the top ling guy this year but next year they should be looking to add a true #1 Ctr then have that 1234 punch down the middle.

??????

O'Riley

Backlund

Jones

If the ????? guy can't be had, at least there are options like keeping Stajan (unless it costs us him to get O'Riley) but I doubt Col has any kind of interest in him move O'Riley and Backlund up a line and insert Stajan in as the No 3, he`s been pretty good there so why not.

With that thought in mind, her is where I`d start, identify the guys you want to keep and build around:

Bear/Backlund/ ????

Hudler/ Horak/ Chervenka

GlenX ???/ ??????/ Iggy???

?????/ Jones/ ?????

????/ ????

JBow/ Gio

Wideman/ TJ

Smith/ ???

???

Kipper

Irving

This is where I'd start to trim fat, keep (if possible the above) for various reasons but mostly because they are young and all have potential to be really good and/or have chemistry with some of the new additions and prospects in our system.

Iggy and Glen X have ???? because I'm on the fence, have a bad feeling they should probably go too as it may be required to change the culture in the room. Of the two, I think Glen X has the best chance to stay as his influence on the room culture is less impactful vice Iggy. Basically Glen X would conform and fit into a younger team culture than Iggy.

When you commit to change you quickly see where our holes are, RW and Ctr. When you consider a proven fact that a strong Ctr core builds a contender then we should focus our current trade efforts on that now. Write this season off but do so with a view to filling the holes with young players that address our needs but care should be granted towards protecting our current prospect group they have shown well at the WJC this year so some moves may be required after filling in the blanks above. If we get a log jam at Ctr with solid young Ctrs and wingers, fine trade for picks. keep building towards the further future.

anyway, I'd look to trim Iggy and possibly Glen X from the list too.

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The question is can we expect to get any great pieces back from trading our core guys at this point? Or are we pretty much fated to build through the draft now?

We dont need to necessarily build through the draft. We can free up a lot of salary if we dont re-sign iggy, babchuk, butler, comaeu, irving - thats $12,000,000 we can put towards better players. If we can trade iggy now and get something decent in return great, if not, let him go.

That still leaves us with a good group of players. A handful of good free agents could make a hell of a difference, just look at the additions this year. Give me another wideman, cervenka and hudler over babchuck, butler and comeau anyday.

Trying to build through a draft is a gamble, especially with our track record.

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Free agency can be a gamble as well, though, because you overpay. Also, I think the Flames have plenty of depth and good players, which can easily be added through free agency. Getting a super high-end player or two (which is what we need, in my opinion), is a lot harder. Even if you've got the money, there's no guarantee the guy will sign with us, when a dozen other teams want him (we've seen this a few times recently).

I agree we could sign better guys than Babs, Butler, Comeau, Irving, but if we let Iggy go, it might be pretty hard to find someone to replace him.

Of course, having said all that, I still think the Flames should use every tool possible to try to improve, and that includes free agency.

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Free agency can be a gamble as well, though, because you overpay. Also, I think the Flames have plenty of depth and good players, which can easily be added through free agency. Getting a super high-end player or two (which is what we need, in my opinion), is a lot harder. Even if you've got the money, there's no guarantee the guy will sign with us, when a dozen other teams want him (we've seen this a few times recently).

I agree we could sign better guys than Babs, Butler, Comeau, Irving, but if we let Iggy go, it might be pretty hard to find someone to replace him.

Of course, having said all that, I still think the Flames should use every tool possible to try to improve, and that includes free agency.

whats iggy giving us at the moment thats so hard to replace? the past is the past, only the future matters, and he isnt delivering.

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