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Going into the season, on paper our D looked like one of the best in the league...

 

When it's been as bad as it has for this many games, coaching (including special teams) has to be called into question...

 

Even adding a player like Hamonic would not "fix the D" at this point...   To turn it around will require a better coaching strategy, motivation and effort from the players...

I would agree its more the coaching then the D. Also I would say of our top 4 russell is the only one who doesnt belong there, the problem really is that wideman/russell play too many minutes in a night in all situations, and with the way our forwards play they are gunna struggle more and more.

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Going into the season, on paper our D looked like one of the best in the league...

 

When it's been as bad as it has for this many games, coaching (including special teams) has to be called into question...

 

Even adding a player like Hamonic would not "fix the D" at this point...   To turn it around will require a better coaching strategy, motivation and effort from the players...

 

I think it's an excuse to blame effort.  A lot of games we get on our heels early due to not being able to execute a zone entry or zone exit.  We end up spending the next 3 minutes in the same cycle.  That can set the tone, and it's hard to break out of, since the other teams feed off it.

 

I have seen quite a few games where we were outplaying the other team, only to see a simple dump in by the other team turn into a deflating goal.  If Hartley is responsible for the systems used, he needs to go.

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BH has always been one to experiment way to much with his lines. Last year I think he lucked out with getting what he did from Gaudeau, Monahan and Hudler. This line isn't getting it done this year. Now he seems desperate for scoring and is afraid to move away from what work before or even a bit so far this year.

 

I make no apologizes, I think BH has created this mess and has no idea how to correct it.

Bob Hartley did not create the mess.

 

  • How exactly did he create a mess when Brodie went down?
  • How he create a mess when he was given 3 goalies to start the season?
  • How should he have known that Gio wasn't going to play up to Norris caliber again?
  • How could he know Hamilton would struggle with Gio to start the season?

You can blame him for shuffling the lines too much, but I would rather be blaming him for not changing things up enough.

 

The other side of this is he didn't get much from 2 out of the 4 lines most nights you have to expect him to change stuff up if more than half your forwards are underperforming..

 

It is easy for you to just say he has no idea how to fix it, but you are talking a Jack Adams winner, with a Stanley Cup to his name... How does he fix 3 goaltenders(2 now that Ortio has been sent down) who are all pretty much bottom of the league?

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Bob Hartley did not create the mess.

 

  • How exactly did he create a mess when Brodie went down?
  • How he create a mess when he was given 3 goalies to start the season?
  • How should he have known that Gio wasn't going to play up to Norris caliber again?
  • How could he know Hamilton would struggle with Gio to start the season?

You can blame him for shuffling the lines too much, but I would rather be blaming him for not changing things up enough.

 

The other side of this is he didn't get much from 2 out of the 4 lines most nights you have to expect him to change stuff up if more than half your forwards are underperforming..

 

It is easy for you to just say he has no idea how to fix it, but you are talking a Jack Adams winner, with a Stanley Cup to his name... How does he fix 3 goaltenders(2 now that Ortio has been sent down) who are all pretty much bottom of the league?

 

I don't think Hartley is at fault for the GT situation as much as his usage of them has not helped.  The only positive outcome this season was from running Ramo for 12 games.  Had he done that with Ortio for maybe 3 games in a row, we might have a better idea if Ortio is a NHL goalie or not.  The win/you're in system worked last year, but there was no real strategy of giving starts to one guy until Hiller was injured.

 

Where Hartley is most at fault is not adapting to the struggles of individual players.  Backlund is struggling, even if his line if providing offense in spite of him.  Johnny's line is really struggling, even if at times Monahan is having a good game.  They are getting the best starts, but struggling with it.  Russell is struggling with defensive coverage, so why are you still giving him the green light, or using him to exit the zone?  The special teams are struggling, and even if it's the responsibility of the assistant coaches, Bob still has to step in to fix it.

 

I agree that he is not mixing up lines enough.  We have the exact same top line as last year.  The 2nd line depends on a gritty center playing the wing.  Backlund is up and down with his FO%.  Against CHI he was 72%, but Pitts and EDM he was below 30%. 

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Going into the season, on paper our D looked like one of the best in the league...

When it's been as bad as it has for this many games, coaching (including special teams) has to be called into question...

Even adding a player like Hamonic would not "fix the D" at this point... To turn it around will require a better coaching strategy, motivation and effort from the players...

On paper yes. But when you have 4 or 5 offence first Dman, where is the D going to come from. When those offensive D guys aren't scoring or getting points, you're in trouble because it means the other team is out scoring us. Could our D be expected to score at the rate it did last year, especially the first half of the season?

I never thought we had one of the best D's in the league, I thought we had one of the best offensive D's though, which is what worried me. Where was the D going to come from.

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Especially when our possession numbers were so low, and how we are easily out worked in our end by bigger teams, I didn't think we had the right mix.

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Bob Hartley did not create the mess.

  • How exactly did he create a mess when Brodie went down?
  • How he create a mess when he was given 3 goalies to start the season?
  • How should he have known that Gio wasn't going to play up to Norris caliber again?
  • How could he know Hamilton would struggle with Gio to start the season?
You can blame him for shuffling the lines too much, but I would rather be blaming him for not changing things up enough.

The other side of this is he didn't get much from 2 out of the 4 lines most nights you have to expect him to change stuff up if more than half your forwards are underperforming..

It is easy for you to just say he has no idea how to fix it, but you are talking a Jack Adams winner, with a Stanley Cup to his name... How does he fix 3 goaltenders(2 now that Ortio has been sent down) who are all pretty much bottom of the league?

The Flames are last or near to last in goal differential, PK, PP, standings, etc.

Here is a good article from Haynes detailing exactly how bad we have been: http://www.flamesfrom80feet.ca/2015/11/eight-from-80-feet-eight-dreadful.html?m=1

A lot of us pointed out that luck had as much to do with last seasons success as coaching or skill. I think Hartley was over rated last season because of it. Many of the issues we are speaking about this season we were speaking about last season. But it wasn't as noteworthy because we were getting results.

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If the Flames motto is always earned, then Hartley has not earned any forgiveness this season.  Like last year, Russell is still blocking a ton of shots, but is that the best defense or just a last line of defense before the goalie?  I would rather see him play the man.  The coach seems to put a lot of stock in blocking, and it takes its toll on players (Russell, Bouma, Brodie).  

 

I think we have a good enough defense to be able to keep out 80% on the PK.  Scoring on the PP is low because of lack of any consistent strategy.  Have 2 wingers stand at the blueline and wait for a player to skate it in?  Or the same setup with a dump in?

 

On a nightly basis, we see two lines producing offense, but usually it is a two-man unit.  Or it is a 4th line and they don't get enough minutes.  Granlund, Ferland, Frolik and Bennett have looked like the most dangerous players the last two games, but are sparingly used or left off special teams.  

 

I would like to see the coach adapt to what is happening on the ice.  If a line is getting its head kicked in, change out one or more of the players.  Like last year, Hartley took a long time to realize that the best players are the youngest.  Johnny, Bennett, Ferland, Jooris and Frolik have played the way we want, but the supporting casts or usage has not been optimized.  How long before we see a regular shift of Johnny-Bennett-Frolik?  Or a Ferland-Granlund-Hudler line? 

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Remember, back in the day (last year), when it seemed like we often scored on the PK? 

 

PK?...   Does that stand for Please Kill us?

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Good luck on getting a goalie upgrade from another NHL team. There are 4 or 5 elites in the league and the rest are average NHL goalies. Neither team in the CUP last year had an elite goalie. It just ain't happening. Kipper was a great average goalie with one incredible 38 game( or whatever) season. The flames goalies stats are a little worse than last year but their play has been almost identical. You win as a team people. If you don't have a team you lose more than you win obviously but apparently needs to be said

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Good luck on getting a goalie upgrade from another NHL team. There are 4 or 5 elites in the league and the rest are average NHL goalies. Neither team in the CUP last year had an elite goalie. It just ain't happening. Kipper was a great average goalie with one incredible 38 game( or whatever) season. The flames goalies stats are a little worse than last year but their play has been almost identical. You win as a team people. If you don't have a team you lose more than you win obviously but apparently needs to be said

 

Agreed.  Sort of.

 

There are likely deals to be had.  But the first thing the Flames need to do, is be Able to know a good goalie when they see one. 

 

Then, they need to know what to do with that goalie.

 

I don't think the Flames have been very good at this since 2004-2006.

 

10-year mark.  It means that...although none of us may be as qualified as management, it could be fair of us to ask whether they're as qualified as their counterparts on other NHL teams.

 

What's clear, is that the strategy over the last few years has not worked.

 

IMHO, before they look at making any more moves, they need to look higher in the organization at getting better goaltending expertise.  In terms of drafting, evaluation, trading, and development.

 

A lot of the conversation on here points the finger at coaches, when the coaches were entrusted with too much decision making power due to a lack of strength in this position at the management level, imho.

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Kipper was a great average goalie with one incredible 38 game( or whatever) season.

 

 A statement like this doesn't inspire any credibility...   Kiprusoff deserverves more respect than that...

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Hey kipper was a good NHL goalie who did his job more nights then he didn't and made a name for himself following up stinkers -whether his fault or the teams-with above average games I might just like him as a goalie more than you do and my credentials have nothing to do with it.

Sorry credibility

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I think Kipper was a great goalie who masked a lot that was wrong with the Flames, always chasing the ultimate center for Iginla. There were so many defensive brain farts where he was left alone. I could be biased, but that was how I saw it most of the time. 

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I think Kipper was a great goalie who masked a lot that was wrong with the Flames, always chasing the ultimate center for Iginla. There were so many defensive brain farts where he was left alone. I could be biased, but that was how I saw it most of the time. 

 

I agree. With the stipulation that he was also over-played.

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It's amazing the dynamics between a good defence core and mediocre goaltending, and a mediocre defence core with excellent goaltending.  Most would prefer the prior, as it almost makes sense that it would outshine the latter on paper.  However the Flames were handed the latter, and as I see it, they had less goals against that the team that is being iced right now.

 

On paper the Flames should have one of the top D cores in the league, or at least top 5 currently.  However, goaltending has been atrocious at best.  They're still riding a goal differential of -30 here at the beginning of December.  Ridiculous.

 

If the Flames were able to buy decent tending at the beginning of the season, we'd be seeing a much different team imo. 

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It's amazing the dynamics between a good defence core and mediocre goaltending, and a mediocre defence core with excellent goaltending.  Most would prefer the prior, as it almost makes sense that it would outshine the latter on paper.  However the Flames were handed the latter, and as I see it, they had less goals against that the team that is being iced right now.

 

On paper the Flames should have one of the top D cores in the league, or at least top 5 currently.  However, goaltending has been atrocious at best.  They're still riding a goal differential of -30 here at the beginning of December.  Ridiculous.

 

If the Flames were able to buy decent tending at the beginning of the season, we'd be seeing a much different team imo. 

Would we ? Wideman has been terrible. Russell has been terrible, Giordano has been average, Hamilton was stuck in neutral, Brodie was injured and Engelland was OK. Could both our goalies be better, definitely but the have been hung out to dry many times by an unachieving defensive effort as well.

 

The other thing I will say is when you really look around for good NHL goalies, I would like to know who people see as being a far better option than what we have and are available ???

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Would we ? Wideman has been terrible. Russell has been terrible, Giordano has been average, Hamilton was stuck in neutral, Brodie was injured and Engelland was OK. Could both our goalies be better, definitely but the have been hung out to dry many times by an unachieving defensive effort as well.

 

The other thing I will say is when you really look around for good NHL goalies, I would like to know who people see as being a far better option than what we have and are available ???

 

I would say so.  The tender is the last line of defense, and of course, we've seen so many softies let in by Hiller, Ortio, and Ramo this season, that most of us fans don't have much faith in our guys between the pipes.  It's almost like I cringe every time the opposition gets a breakaway.  

 

I didn't get that feeling with Kipper in net.  I don't see fans from other teams such as the Rags, the Habs, and the Kings feel that way either.  Sure the D could be better, and they have been abysmal, but with good tending, the outcome would be much different.

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To be fair I should give Steinberg some credit here

 

http://flamesnation.ca/2015/11/30/how-much-better-should-the-flames-be

 

I was of the opinion that goaltending this season has probably cost the Flames at least 5-6 points. According to Steinbergs math he figured that if the Flames would have gotten even decent goaltening they would have cut 23 Goals against off their totals this year. Now this is rough math for sure but I think it demosntrates that even with decent goaltending the Flames probably have another 5-6 points. That would put them 1 point of 3rd in the division and and 3 out of the WC which i think is where they should be based on the team on paper and how they have played.

 

There are lots of other issues sure so I don't want to single out goaltending. Special teams have been brutal and there are still inconsistancies from their execution game by game but I there is no questions in my mind that goaltending has been their biggest problem this year becuase save for a handfull of games, its been below average basically all year and IMO you cannot win with below average goaltending. 

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To be fair I should give Steinberg some credit here

 

http://flamesnation.ca/2015/11/30/how-much-better-should-the-flames-be

 

I was of the opinion that goaltending this season has probably cost the Flames at least 5-6 points. According to Steinbergs math he figured that if the Flames would have gotten even decent goaltening they would have cut 23 Goals against off their totals this year. Now this is rough math for sure but I think it demosntrates that even with decent goaltending the Flames probably have another 5-6 points. That would put them 1 point of 3rd in the division and and 3 out of the WC which i think is where they should be based on the team on paper and how they have played.

 

There are lots of other issues sure so I don't want to single out goaltending. Special teams have been brutal and there are still inconsistancies from their execution game by game but I there is no questions in my mind that goaltending has been their biggest problem this year becuase save for a handfull of games, its been below average basically all year and IMO you cannot win with below average goaltending. 

 

Ya well, if we're going to go there, then let's not stop there.

 

If Giordano was playing like Giordano of last season, then we'd be at the very least, 3-points better than were we are right now.  By my count, Hamilton has single handedly cost us about 4-points in the standings (and I'm being really nice about that number).  If he was playing all season like he has been playing the last 2 games, then we'd be easily be an additional 4-points better.  Oh, and if Brodie wasn't injured to start the season...

 

If this and that, then we'd like in first place in our division for sure.

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To be fair I should give Steinberg some credit here

 

http://flamesnation.ca/2015/11/30/how-much-better-should-the-flames-be

 

I was of the opinion that goaltending this season has probably cost the Flames at least 5-6 points. According to Steinbergs math he figured that if the Flames would have gotten even decent goaltening they would have cut 23 Goals against off their totals this year. Now this is rough math for sure but I think it demosntrates that even with decent goaltending the Flames probably have another 5-6 points. That would put them 1 point of 3rd in the division and and 3 out of the WC which i think is where they should be based on the team on paper and how they have played.

 

There are lots of other issues sure so I don't want to single out goaltending. Special teams have been brutal and there are still inconsistancies from their execution game by game but I there is no questions in my mind that goaltending has been their biggest problem this year becuase save for a handfull of games, its been below average basically all year and IMO you cannot win with below average goaltending. 

 

One only has to look north to see the impact of an average defender.  Neilson is playing better than the defense.  He is giving them average or better tending.  It's hard to imagine them being worse, but put October Ramo and Hiller there and they would be lucky to have 5 wins.

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