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Niemi? Dallas also has Jack Campbell. Niemi's looking redundant to me.

I like that. At a time Niemi was a big draw.

 

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Jack Campbell | Goalie | #1
Team:  Dallas Stars Age / DOB: (24) / 1/9/1992 Ht / Wt: 6'3' / 195 Drafted: 2010 / Rd. 1 (11) / DAL Share: Tweet
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Jack Campbell has been assigned to the minors.
He learned some things from the big league during his practice sessions and will try to put them into practice in the minors. Campbell has a 3-3-0 record with a 3.80 goals-against average and an .873 save percentage in six AHL contests this season, so he has plenty of room for improvement. Wed, Dec 2, 2015 01:48:00 PM
 
 
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Antti Niemi | Goalie | #31
Team:  Dallas Stars Age / DOB: (32) / 8/16/1983 Ht / Wt: 6'2' / 210 Contract: view contract details Share: Tweet
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Coach Lindy Ruff said he won't announce who will start in goal before Game 1 on Thursday night.
Antti Niemi went 2-1-0 with a 2.08 goals-against average and a .927 save percentage versus Minnesota this season, while Kari Lehtonen posted a mark 2-0-0 with a 3.13 GAA and an .897 save percentage. "I like the way both our goalies have played. Right now I don't have a bad decision," said Ruff. "There's not a wrong decision, but these guys have both played well and they've both played well down the stretch. There's probably a chance both guys will play." Apr 11 - 3:02 PM

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  • Kari Lehtonen
  • Born: November 16, 1983
  • Birthplace: Helsinki, FIN
  • Catches: Left
 
2015-2016 Playoffs  GP    GAA 1.69  Sv% .931
Career Playoffs        GP11    GAA 3.27  Sv%  .887
2015-2016               GP 43   GAA 2.76  Sv%  .906
NHL Career              GP 453  GAA 2.70  Sv%  .913
                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                           
---------------------------------------- --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------        
  • Antti Niemi
  • Born: August 29, 1983
  • Birthplace: Vantaa, FIN
  • Catches: Left
 
2015-2016 Playoffs  GP 0      GAA ////     Sv% ////
Career Playoffs        GP 62    GAA 2.74  Sv%  .907
2015-2016               GP 48    GAA 2.67  Sv%  .905
NHL Career              GP 386  GAA 2.43  Sv%  .915
                                                                          

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I have seen Andersen literally steal games from the Flames.  He played well on a team known for offense, and only recently have become a better defensive team.  I think he is a good fit for the Flames.  The cost is the real issue and why this may never happen.

 

 

Yes, sometimes a good goalie can allow a team to be more on the offense. Frederik Andersen is 26 and has a .918 sv% for his career ,and a 2.33 GAA.

His numbers look pretty decent.

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I really like Kuemper and have been for awhile now. He will be cheap to acquire and sign (probably), he has close to 100 games played with decent numbers, and he is ready for starter duty. He gives us a lot more insurance then Ortio but is young enough to give us two bullets in the gun for a long term starter.

An Ortio / Kuemper tandem is a lot less risky then an Ortio / Unknown rookie tandem. Plus I like him a lot more the Ortio if it comes down to shopping for two goalies.

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I really like Kuemper and have been for awhile now. He will be cheap to acquire and sign (probably), he has close to 100 games played with decent numbers, and he is ready for starter duty. He gives us a lot more insurance then Ortio but is young enough to give us two bullets in the gun for a long term starter.

An Ortio / Kuemper tandem is a lot less risky then an Ortio / Unknown rookie tandem. Plus I like him a lot more the Ortio if it comes down to shopping for two goalies.

I'm actually leery of Kuemper, if only for the reason that he has OK numbers on a team that historically makes goalies look good. I'd be definitely looking more to Anderson than Kuemper. On the other hand I'd be all over St Louis for either of theirs. Elliot right now is almost single handedly beating the Hawks

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I'm actually leery of Kuemper, if only for the reason that he has OK numbers on a team that historically makes goalies look good. I'd be definitely looking more to Anderson than Kuemper. On the other hand I'd be all over St Louis for either of theirs. Elliot right now is almost single handedly beating the Hawks

 

I agree.  but, I like that he is young.  He is probably on the limit of what I would consider acceptable for age (almost too old), and on the limit of what others on here would consider too young.

 

Still young enough to get better.

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I really like Kuemper and have been for awhile now. He will be cheap to acquire and sign (probably), he has close to 100 games played with decent numbers, and he is ready for starter duty. He gives us a lot more insurance then Ortio but is young enough to give us two bullets in the gun for a long term starter.

An Ortio / Kuemper tandem is a lot less risky then an Ortio / Unknown rookie tandem. Plus I like him a lot more the Ortio if it comes down to shopping for two goalies.

 

I get everything you're saying here, but the 100 games seems quite arbitrary.  Almost like, you didn't like Ortio, and designed a system to eliminate him, that wouldn't exclude a younger goalie, yet based on experience.

 

I actually get the Kuemper thing.    But I see little significance in comparing their number of NHL games when, for both, it's relatively little.  For all the talk about bringing in experience, I just ...frankly....feel that you've disregarded it, if Kuemper is your guy.  And that's fine.  

 

Unless there's some statistic or study I'm unaware of where goalies become exponentially more valuable and less risky as they move from 40 games to 100, it could suffice to say that...you like Kuemper better.

 

I don't think you'd get roasted for that.  You wouldn't from me, anyway.   I'd actually take it a lot better than the 100 game arguement.

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I agree. but, I like that he is young. He is probably on the limit of what I would consider acceptable for age (almost too old), and on the limit of what others on here would consider too young.

Still young enough to get better.

Oh agreed, if we were to bring him in to compete with Ortio for the backup role I'd be all over it(tho I believe Ortio would win the Battle)..but to target him as our starter I don't see it. If I'm bringing a starter in from Minnesota he better be in the 920's for sv% for them not barely over. 910

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I like Antii Niemi or Frederik Andersen out of the bunch we are discussing. We don't want to buy more potentials we want provens for a potential starter position. <_<

You gotta pull out the dough for a top goaltender, sooner or later.

Who else might become available?

Man I wish I was 32!!

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I get everything you're saying here, but the 100 games seems quite arbitrary. Almost like, you didn't like Ortio, and designed a system to eliminate him, that wouldn't exclude a younger goalie, yet based on experience.

I actually get the Kuemper thing. But I see little significance in comparing their number of NHL games when, for both, it's relatively little. For all the talk about bringing in experience, I just ...frankly....feel that you've disregarded it, if Kuemper is your guy. And that's fine.

Unless there's some statistic or study I'm unaware of where goalies become exponentially more valuable and less risky as they move from 40 games to 100, it could suffice to say that...you like Kuemper better.

I don't think you'd get roasted for that. You wouldn't from me, anyway. I'd actually take it a lot better than the 100 game arguement.

Ortio has 9, 6, and 22 games in the NHL with a career save percentage of 901.

Kuemper has 6, 26, 31, and 21 games in the NHL with a career save percentage of 912.

You can call it arbitrary if you want. But it really isn't that hard to see why I see one of those guys as a backup ready for starter duty and the other as a guy still trying to prove he even belongs in the NHL.

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Ortio has 9, 6, and 22 games in the NHL with a career save percentage of 901.

Kuemper has 6, 26, 31, and 21 games in the NHL with a career save percentage of 912.

You can call it arbitrary if you want. But it really isn't that hard to see why I see one of those guys as a backup ready for starter duty and the other as a guy still trying to prove he even belongs in the NHL.

Why would you say if Ortio "even belongs in the NHL" ? All you had to do is watch these last games e played here this season to know he is capable of NHL action. Whether as a back up or starter remains to be determined.

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Why would you say if Ortio "even belongs in the NHL" ? All you had to do is watch these last games e played here this season to know he is capable of NHL action. Whether as a back up or starter remains to be determined.

 

The comment is fair.  You can look at Hathaway's performance over 13 games and say "This guy is ready for the NHL" or look at when those games were played and what was on the line and say "The jury is still out".  

 

BT talked about evaluating based on more than the end of season numbers.  Overall Ortio played 22 games and had a record of 7-9-5 with 2.76 GAA and 0.902 SA%.  His end of season was a lot better, but you have to look at the body of work.

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The comment is fair.  You can look at Hathaway's performance over 13 games and say "This guy is ready for the NHL" or look at when those games were played and what was on the line and say "The jury is still out".  

 

BT talked about evaluating based on more than the end of season numbers.  Overall Ortio played 22 games and had a record of 7-9-5 with 2.76 GAA and 0.902 SA%.  His end of season was a lot better, but you have to look at the body of work.

That's true. You have to study the factors behind each picture; not just snapshot numbers. :huh:

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The comment is fair.  You can look at Hathaway's performance over 13 games and say "This guy is ready for the NHL" or look at when those games were played and what was on the line and say "The jury is still out".  

 

BT talked about evaluating based on more than the end of season numbers.  Overall Ortio played 22 games and had a record of 7-9-5 with 2.76 GAA and 0.902 SA%.  His end of season was a lot better, but you have to look at the body of work.

 

 

Agreed.

 

Where I will agree with Mac is Ortio showed you he has an NHL skill set. Whether or not he is an "NHLer" he stills needs to prove. 

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Agreed.

 

Where I will agree with Mac is Ortio showed you he has an NHL skill set. Whether or not he is an "NHLer" he stills needs to prove. 

 

Yes he has showed a NHL skill set.  I'm not saying he will never be, just that there are plenty that have showed similar promise that never become NHL regulars.  He has probably earned a longer look, not just 3rd out of 3.

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The comment is fair.  You can look at Hathaway's performance over 13 games and say "This guy is ready for the NHL" or look at when those games were played and what was on the line and say "The jury is still out".  

 

BT talked about evaluating based on more than the end of season numbers.  Overall Ortio played 22 games and had a record of 7-9-5 with 2.76 GAA and 0.902 SA%.  His end of season was a lot better, but you have to look at the body of work.

Stats only tell you so much, I have seen enough of Ortio and Hathaway to tell you they can play in the NHL. How they get used and progress will determine if they stay.

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Aplogoies in advance for the novel  :P

 

Thought I'd weigh in on this one as well, and put together my goalie target list in order of preference. I personally see a 3 horse race, followed by followed by some plan B's which wouldn't be the end of the world (and would only act as a stop-gap solution to buy development time). Teams in the market for goalies appear to be slim - Calgary, Toronto, and Carolina (did I miss any?) which I think bodes well for us in our search as there is a less competitive market.

 

1. Matt Murray (PIT):

My ideal candidate for our team. Despite the lack of "NHL experience" on his resume, it does speak very well for his potential.  Potential that won't cost us a $6M contract in the next few years. He's also NHL ready *now*. He's the right age to grow with the team. IMO I believe he will allow us to be a perennial Stanley Cup contender in the near future. Yes, it's been reported that BT has reached out to Pittsburgh regarding Murray - and the response was NO... however, I believe this to be posturing for Pittsburgh to get a better return... Hear me out. Marc-Andre Fleury is a Penguins Stanley Cup winning goalie who is only 31, and is locked in with 3 more seasons @ $5.75M plus a No Move Clause. He is a cherished teammate, has great personal relationships with many including Sid, and is loved by the fans. I do not forsee a scenario where Pittsburgh trades this franchise player to another team - I just can't see it. That said, I believe Pittsburgh would prefer to hold onto BOTH goalies... HOWEVER, if the NHL announces EXPANSION, this tips the scale back in our favour and benefits us immensely in the pursuit for Murray, as I believe even with a 1-team expansion, Murray would be targeted along with an unprotected veteran goalie mentor. Expansion would force Pittsburgh's hand to choose to protect 1 goalie over the other, and again I can't see Pittsburgh doing that to Fleury. Heck, if the NHL rules that players with NMCs take a 'protected spot' automatically, Murray would become available no matter what! Pittsburgh would not risk losing Murray for nothing, would they? Toronto would likely compete with us for Murray. They have a ton of draft picks at their disposal, but they are also in the Eastern Conference. Here's hoping we win this one. 

 

2. Ben Bishop (TB):

Established NHL goalie whose resume speaks for itself. Save percentage better than average on a team I do not view as a defensive powerhouse. Current cap hit $5.95 with 1 year remaining and no movement clause. If we are able to move out Dennis Wideman and his contract @ $5.25M, I don't think twice about "helping" Tampa Bay move out this contract. It's been reported that TB needs to free up cap space for their RFAs, Stamkos, and they're apparently high on giving the reigns to Vasilevsky from various articles I've read. If we plan to challenge for the cup in the next few years (2-4), I'm confident with Bishop. Bishop will instantly make us a better team IMO, however, Murray is my number 1 because I think he brings more longevity to the position and is a lower cap hit for us than Bishop over time. 

 

3. Frederik Andersen (ANA)

RFA Goalie at the end of this year expecting a pay raise. Anaheim is NOT a cap team, and they have MANY RFA and UFA players to consider re-signing this year. Andersen could be pushed out as they've reportedly chosen Gibson as their starter. 26 years old, GAA is average to above average on a good defensive team. NHL ready goalie with potential to improve - unsure what his ceiling is, but anticipate he would help us challenge for stanley cups. Wouldn't cost $6M like Bishop, but would cost us more cap space than Murray. Western Conference adversary may not want to trade with us, but I could see Toronto as better suitor with draft picks and/or low cap prospects going back in return. 

 

4. James Reimer (SJ)

UFA. How much demand is there for goalies this summer? I'm not sure Reimer gets the pay day he's looking for, which may benefit us if none of the above scenarios pan out for us. I must say I *am* very concerned about his concussion and injury history, but this is a goalie that competes hard every night, wears his heart on his jersey, and didn't throw in the towel playing for a terrible leafs team - he RAISED his game. Playing behind one of the poorest defense corps in the league, Reimer more than proved he should've started the lion's share of leaf games. But politics plays a role. Toronto had to protect the optics of the trade they made with LA for Bernier, hanging onto hope that Bernier would come around. Meanwhile, Reimer towed the company line and outshone Bernier in most of the opportunities that he got. If healthy - he solidifies the position to get us into the playoffs and I guess anything can happen then.  

 

5. Darcy Kuemper (MIN) / Ondrej Pavelec (WPG)

If all else fails - this is the last resort. I give the edge to Pavelec (especially if WPG will take Stajan off our hands in return) and hope he finds consistency for us if we end up with fewer goalie options than anticipated. He could get us back into the playoffs IMO. Kuemper is bigger risk with average stats, but has room to improve his game. I don't think he gets us into the playoffs next year, but cap and potential could fill the need immediately. 

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Stats only tell you so much, I have seen enough of Ortio and Hathaway to tell you they can play in the NHL. How they get used and progress will determine if they stay.

 

You have to look at more than just "meaningless" games.  Ortio was good at the end of the season, mostly.  A backup has to look good at all times.  Hathaway was very good in his first 5 games, but lost a step after the initial adrenaline wore off.  Cervenka could play in the NHL, but isn't a NHL player.  Big difference.

 

Agreed that how they progress is key.     

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Aplogoies in advance for the novel  :P
 
Thought I'd weigh in on this one as well, and put together my goalie target list in order of preference. I personally see a 3 horse race, followed by followed by some plan B's which wouldn't be the end of the world (and would only act as a stop-gap solution to buy development time). Teams in the market for goalies appear to be slim - Calgary, Toronto, and Carolina (did I miss any?) which I think bodes well for us in our search as there is a less competitive market.
 
1. Matt Murray (PIT):
My ideal candidate for our team. Despite the lack of "NHL experience" on his resume, it does speak very well for his potential.  Potential that won't cost us a $6M contract in the next few years. He's also NHL ready *now*. He's the right age to grow with the team. IMO I believe he will allow us to be a perennial Stanley Cup contender in the near future. Yes, it's been reported that BT has reached out to Pittsburgh regarding Murray - and the response was NO... however, I believe this to be posturing for Pittsburgh to get a better return... Hear me out. Marc-Andre Fleury is a Penguins Stanley Cup winning goalie who is only 31, and is locked in with 3 more seasons @ $5.75M plus a No Move Clause. He is a cherished teammate, has great personal relationships with many including Sid, and is loved by the fans. I do not forsee a scenario where Pittsburgh trades this franchise player to another team - I just can't see it. That said, I believe Pittsburgh would prefer to hold onto BOTH goalies... HOWEVER, if the NHL announces EXPANSION, this tips the scale back in our favour and benefits us immensely in the pursuit for Murray, as I believe even with a 1-team expansion, Murray would be targeted along with an unprotected veteran goalie mentor. Expansion would force Pittsburgh's hand to choose to protect 1 goalie over the other, and again I can't see Pittsburgh doing that to Fleury. Heck, if the NHL rules that players with NMCs take a 'protected spot' automatically, Murray would become available no matter what! Pittsburgh would not risk losing Murray for nothing, would they? Toronto would likely compete with us for Murray. They have a ton of draft picks at their disposal, but they are also in the Eastern Conference. Here's hoping we win this one. 
 
2. Ben Bishop (TB):
Established NHL goalie whose resume speaks for itself. Save percentage better than average on a team I do not view as a defensive powerhouse. Current cap hit $5.95 with 1 year remaining and no movement clause. If we are able to move out Dennis Wideman and his contract @ $5.25M, I don't think twice about "helping" Tampa Bay move out this contract. It's been reported that TB needs to free up cap space for their RFAs, Stamkos, and they're apparently high on giving the reigns to Vasilevsky from various articles I've read. If we plan to challenge for the cup in the next few years (2-4), I'm confident with Bishop. Bishop will instantly make us a better team IMO, however, Murray is my number 1 because I think he brings more longevity to the position and is a lower cap hit for us than Bishop over time. 
 
3. Frederik Andersen (ANA)
RFA Goalie at the end of this year expecting a pay raise. Anaheim is NOT a cap team, and they have MANY RFA and UFA players to consider re-signing this year. Andersen could be pushed out as they've reportedly chosen Gibson as their starter. 26 years old, GAA is average to above average on a good defensive team. NHL ready goalie with potential to improve - unsure what his ceiling is, but anticipate he would help us challenge for stanley cups. Wouldn't cost $6M like Bishop, but would cost us more cap space than Murray. Western Conference adversary may not want to trade with us, but I could see Toronto as better suitor with draft picks and/or low cap prospects going back in return. 
 
4. James Reimer (SJ)
UFA. How much demand is there for goalies this summer? I'm not sure Reimer gets the pay day he's looking for, which may benefit us if none of the above scenarios pan out for us. I must say I *am* very concerned about his concussion and injury history, but this is a goalie that competes hard every night, wears his heart on his jersey, and didn't throw in the towel playing for a terrible leafs team - he RAISED his game. Playing behind one of the poorest defense corps in the league, Reimer more than proved he should've started the lion's share of leaf games. But politics plays a role. Toronto had to protect the optics of the trade they made with LA for Bernier, hanging onto hope that Bernier would come around. Meanwhile, Reimer towed the company line and outshone Bernier in most of the opportunities that he got. If healthy - he solidifies the position to get us into the playoffs and I guess anything can happen then.  
 
5. Darcy Kuemper (MIN) / Ondrej Pavelec (WPG)
If all else fails - this is the last resort. I give the edge to Pavelec (especially if WPG will take Stajan off our hands in return) and hope he finds consistency for us if we end up with fewer goalie options than anticipated. He could get us back into the playoffs IMO. Kuemper is bigger risk with average stats, but has room to improve his game. I don't think he gets us into the playoffs next year, but cap and potential could fill the need immediately. 

 

I love the potential of any of the first 3, especially if an expansion draft is in the works.  zNone of those teams is going to be willing to lose their guy for nothing, its just a matter of when they make a move and if they are able to do a side deal with the expansion team NOT to pick their goalie.....

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Ortio has 9, 6, and 22 games in the NHL with a career save percentage of 901.

Kuemper has 6, 26, 31, and 21 games in the NHL with a career save percentage of 912.

You can call it arbitrary if you want. But it really isn't that hard to see why I see one of those guys as a backup ready for starter duty and the other as a guy still trying to prove he even belongs in the NHL.

 

I love my stats.....I'm not going to call it arbitrary.

 

But I am going to call them both very small sample sizes that really only indicate which goalie was developed first.

 

You know what?  When I watch them play, I think...  Kuemper is further along right now.   I do.   And their stats agree with that.

 

But it's not by miles.   And it's not a question of who's the starter.  And it's not a question of which one is the NHL goalie.

 

Both, at their age, are playing like NHL backups with starter potential.

 

 

Neither are "below" the NHL.  Neither are "obvious starters".          

 

You're talking about two young goalies, one slightly ahead of the other, both with a lot to prove.

 

You're ...basically....doing the same thing....we always do.

 

Bitterly disagreeing on everything....except the conclusion.   Which we usually arrive on from different angles.  You're arriving at the same goalie I might arrive at, suggesting we bring in two young prospects, two goalies who are not yet starters, and let them develop and battle it out.   And you're doing....all of that, coming from an angle where you're suggesting we bring in a top veteran starter.  I don't get that, and you clearly don't get what I'm saying.    But the same thing happens, every time.

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Ortio's numbers even when he way playing well weren't great. Those were in games that didn't matter.

But you can't look at just a small sample. If you did there are a lot of poor goalies that would be in the running. The bottom line is he wasn't good over the course of this season. I really don't care that he wasn't horrible for a small stretch. So seeing him not be horrible over that small stretch certainly doesn't prove to me he belongs in the NHL full time.

Ortio has a lot to prove still. If he was on another team he wouldn't even be on the radar for us to look at as a backup let alone starter.

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I think Matt Murray should be crossed off any list that people have. I don't think there is anyway the Penguins let him go and even if there was an expansion draft there is no doubt in my mind they would protect Murray and let Fleury go.

 

Murray has looked great at the NHL level and was very good in New York last night. He won't go anywhere IMO.

 

The better debate, is should the Flames have interest in Fleury? IMO, yes they absolutely should. 

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Aplogoies in advance for the novel :P

Thought I'd weigh in on this one as well, and put together my goalie target list in order of preference. I personally see a 3 horse race, followed by followed by some plan B's which wouldn't be the end of the world (and would only act as a stop-gap solution to buy development time). Teams in the market for goalies appear to be slim - Calgary, Toronto, and Carolina (did I miss any?) which I think bodes well for us in our search as there is a less competitive market.

1. Matt Murray (PIT):

My ideal candidate for our team. Despite the lack of "NHL experience" on his resume, it does speak very well for his potential. Potential that won't cost us a $6M contract in the next few years. He's also NHL ready *now*. He's the right age to grow with the team. IMO I believe he will allow us to be a perennial Stanley Cup contender in the near future. Yes, it's been reported that BT has reached out to Pittsburgh regarding Murray - and the response was NO... however, I believe this to be posturing for Pittsburgh to get a better return... Hear me out. Marc-Andre Fleury is a Penguins Stanley Cup winning goalie who is only 31, and is locked in with 3 more seasons @ $5.75M plus a No Move Clause. He is a cherished teammate, has great personal relationships with many including Sid, and is loved by the fans. I do not forsee a scenario where Pittsburgh trades this franchise player to another team - I just can't see it. That said, I believe Pittsburgh would prefer to hold onto BOTH goalies... HOWEVER, if the NHL announces EXPANSION, this tips the scale back in our favour and benefits us immensely in the pursuit for Murray, as I believe even with a 1-team expansion, Murray would be targeted along with an unprotected veteran goalie mentor. Expansion would force Pittsburgh's hand to choose to protect 1 goalie over the other, and again I can't see Pittsburgh doing that to Fleury. Heck, if the NHL rules that players with NMCs take a 'protected spot' automatically, Murray would become available no matter what! Pittsburgh would not risk losing Murray for nothing, would they? Toronto would likely compete with us for Murray. They have a ton of draft picks at their disposal, but they are also in the Eastern Conference. Here's hoping we win this one.

2. Ben Bishop (TB):

Established NHL goalie whose resume speaks for itself. Save percentage better than average on a team I do not view as a defensive powerhouse. Current cap hit $5.95 with 1 year remaining and no movement clause. If we are able to move out Dennis Wideman and his contract @ $5.25M, I don't think twice about "helping" Tampa Bay move out this contract. It's been reported that TB needs to free up cap space for their RFAs, Stamkos, and they're apparently high on giving the reigns to Vasilevsky from various articles I've read. If we plan to challenge for the cup in the next few years (2-4), I'm confident with Bishop. Bishop will instantly make us a better team IMO, however, Murray is my number 1 because I think he brings more longevity to the position and is a lower cap hit for us than Bishop over time.

3. Frederik Andersen (ANA)

RFA Goalie at the end of this year expecting a pay raise. Anaheim is NOT a cap team, and they have MANY RFA and UFA players to consider re-signing this year. Andersen could be pushed out as they've reportedly chosen Gibson as their starter. 26 years old, GAA is average to above average on a good defensive team. NHL ready goalie with potential to improve - unsure what his ceiling is, but anticipate he would help us challenge for stanley cups. Wouldn't cost $6M like Bishop, but would cost us more cap space than Murray. Western Conference adversary may not want to trade with us, but I could see Toronto as better suitor with draft picks and/or low cap prospects going back in return.

4. James Reimer (SJ)

UFA. How much demand is there for goalies this summer? I'm not sure Reimer gets the pay day he's looking for, which may benefit us if none of the above scenarios pan out for us. I must say I *am* very concerned about his concussion and injury history, but this is a goalie that competes hard every night, wears his heart on his jersey, and didn't throw in the towel playing for a terrible leafs team - he RAISED his game. Playing behind one of the poorest defense corps in the league, Reimer more than proved he should've started the lion's share of leaf games. But politics plays a role. Toronto had to protect the optics of the trade they made with LA for Bernier, hanging onto hope that Bernier would come around. Meanwhile, Reimer towed the company line and outshone Bernier in most of the opportunities that he got. If healthy - he solidifies the position to get us into the playoffs and I guess anything can happen then.

5. Darcy Kuemper (MIN) / Ondrej Pavelec (WPG)

If all else fails - this is the last resort. I give the edge to Pavelec (especially if WPG will take Stajan off our hands in return) and hope he finds consistency for us if we end up with fewer goalie options than anticipated. He could get us back into the playoffs IMO. Kuemper is bigger risk with average stats, but has room to improve his game. I don't think he gets us into the playoffs next year, but cap and potential could fill the need immediately.

I totally agree with the first 4. I would even add Elliot/Allen (either one). Both have 2 yrs remaining on 2.5M contracts and whichever is not protected is in big danger of being lost. Elliot's play right now against Chicago could make Allen available.

I personally don't see Pavelec or Kuemper being an upgrade to our starters from this year(except Hiller)

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I love my stats.....I'm not going to call it arbitrary.

But I am going to call them both very small sample sizes that really only indicate which goalie was developed first.

You know what? When I watch them play, I think... Kuemper is further along right now. I do. And their stats agree with that.

But it's not by miles. And it's not a question of who's the starter. And it's not a question of which one is the NHL goalie.

Both, at their age, are playing like NHL backups with starter potential.

Neither are "below" the NHL. Neither are "obvious starters".

You're talking about two young goalies, one slightly ahead of the other, both with a lot to prove.

You're ...basically....doing the same thing....we always do.

Bitterly disagreeing on everything....except the conclusion. Which we usually arrive on from different angles. You're arriving at the same goalie I might arrive at, suggesting we bring in two young prospects, two goalies who are not yet starters, and let them develop and battle it out. And you're doing....all of that, coming from an angle where you're suggesting we bring in a top veteran starter. I don't get that, and you clearly don't get what I'm saying. But the same thing happens, every time.

Just stop with the "you always agree with me" stuff. When you have to say it so often and to so many people then clearly they don't agree with you.

Clearly I disagree with you over Ortio and how much trust the Flames should put on him. I disagree that Kuemper is only slightly ahead of Ortio. He has 100 percent more games played and his worst season is better then Ortio's best. He is miles ahead of Ortio who is, in my opinion, unproven at the NHL level and trending towards being a bust.

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I think Matt Murray should be crossed off any list that people have. I don't think there is anyway the Penguins let him go and even if there was an expansion draft there is no doubt in my mind they would protect Murray and let Fleury go.

Murray has looked great at the NHL level and was very good in New York last night. He won't go anywhere IMO.

The better debate, is should the Flames have interest in Fleury? IMO, yes they absolutely should.

A point raised that I was not aware of is Fleury has a limited NMC he would have to agree to be exposed,making him likely an automatic protected player.this does make Murray's status a bit interesting. On the other hand it also makes him likely to be hung onto until the last minute. Not available until at least next year's TDL

Or of course. They could choose to move Fleury obviously to one of his 12 acceptable teams

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