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On 4/17/2020 at 3:32 PM, robrob74 said:

 

 

Exactly! If you look at Rittich's playing history, he has always been a 1B in North America and seemed to thrive in that role. It is why I think roughly a 50%-50% of games split would work best for him. So that would work out to 41 games, give or take a few. He seems to stay focused on that workload. I'd play him about 2-3 games, then play the other goalie 2-3 games. If it is Talbot, then I am okay with that. I think he is starting to find his game. And like you said, at their price tags, they've performed adequately, and sometimes better than adequate. 

 

I wonder if Price is worth it for 10M as well, I still think he is probably the best goalie in the NHL, and if the price tag was lower, I'd take him over any goalie. I think the only thing that is holding him back is that he's on Montreal with a team that is fairly unfinished, even when they went to the conference final, they probably shouldn't have even made the playoffs. I might be underrating that team. Other than last season and this season, Price has been pretty damned good. 

 

They burned Rittich this year, the same way they burned Smith last year.

The year EDM went to the 2nd round with Talbot, they burned him too.

Play Rittich less often instead of 4/5 games for the early season and you get the results you want.

It's no cooincidence that his game tailed off after running him early and especially giving him frequent games of 40+ shots.

 

Sure it's a stopgap, but Rittich/Talbot is really all you needed to be successful.

Maybe look at the impact of crappy defensive play.

41 games of each and an improved D would go a long way.

This year we were not able to outscore our defensive mistakes and the occasional off game by a goalie.

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1 hour ago, travel_dude said:

 

They burned Rittich this year, the same way they burned Smith last year.

The year EDM went to the 2nd round with Talbot, they burned him too.

Play Rittich less often instead of 4/5 games for the early season and you get the results you want.

It's no cooincidence that his game tailed off after running him early and especially giving him frequent games of 40+ shots.

 

Sure it's a stopgap, but Rittich/Talbot is really all you needed to be successful.

Maybe look at the impact of crappy defensive play.

41 games of each and an improved D would go a long way.

This year we were not able to outscore our defensive mistakes and the occasional off game by a goalie.

 

While I don't agree on Riitich and Talbot being all we needed (maybe for the regular season) I couldn't agree more that they were mishandled early on in terms of starts, burning out Rittich for literally no explainable reason other than complete lack of planning for the season.

 

I would also add that this was largely remedied when Ward took over.

 

I would also agree that our defense hit us far more than goaltending ever did.   Where it Really would have been noticeable is if we advanced to the playoffs and things got real.

 

Alas...can only speculate there now 

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On 4/25/2020 at 10:11 AM, jjgallow said:

 

While I don't agree on Riitich and Talbot being all we needed (maybe for the regular season) I couldn't agree more that they were mishandled early on in terms of starts, burning out Rittich for literally no explainable reason other than complete lack of planning for the season.

 

I would also add that this was largely remedied when Ward took over.

 

I would also agree that our defense hit us far more than goaltending ever did.   Where it Really would have been noticeable is if we advanced to the playoffs and things got real.

 

Alas...can only speculate there now 

 

If you had consistent play by the D, without such poor play in the D-zone, then having two goalies that can stop the puck is all you need.

Even with that, the games were not blowouts, with a few exceptions where it was a tirefire out there.

We lost a lot of games because we couldn;t manage to score.

And that's going to be key for the playoffs.

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32 minutes ago, travel_dude said:

 

If you had consistent play by the D, without such poor play in the D-zone, then having two goalies that can stop the puck is all you need.

Even with that, the games were not blowouts, with a few exceptions where it was a tirefire out there.

We lost a lot of games because we couldn;t manage to score.

And that's going to be key for the playoffs.

 

17th overall in goals for, 17th overall in goals against, 17th overall in points....

 

whm GIF by We Hate Movies

 

We are average.  It's official.  And, we're also no longer young.

 

So that's all fair.  I do think that of all things, we have the most skill on our forward lines but that it is completely ineffective in playoff action so...who..cares.

 

 

All that said, I think you start with goaltending, always.   Not to blame goaltending.  It's just the most challenging development piece.  And the other positions are dependant on it.

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On 4/26/2020 at 12:29 PM, jjgallow said:

 

17th overall in goals for, 17th overall in goals against, 17th overall in points....

 

whm GIF by We Hate Movies

 

We are average.  It's official.  And, we're also no longer young.

 

So that's all fair.  I do think that of all things, we have the most skill on our forward lines but that it is completely ineffective in playoff action so...who..cares.

 

 

All that said, I think you start with goaltending, always.   Not to blame goaltending.  It's just the most challenging development piece.  And the other positions are dependant on it.

 

If and when the season resumes, it won't be like the regular season panned out.

You talk about being 17th.

What is the point, we were 17th in 2019-20.

So we have a fresh Rittich and Talbot got his confidence.

That is the point for this season and playoffs.

Did the defense learn anything as the season wound down?

Will the forwards be up to speed or rusty?

 

I don't think there is any way to predict how teams will finish out the season.

Since the AHL, CHL and some of the other competing leagues' seasons are done, you might have some players jump into play.

A basement team could fill the ranks with AHL'er to gauge readiness or tank.

Previous contenders could be pretenders.

That just points to a different looking race and seeding potentially.

 

What does that all mean, Gene?  

Any team could be as good as their best run of the season or worst.

It's why I talked about having goalies that could stop the puck. 

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22 hours ago, travel_dude said:

 

If and when the season resumes, it won't be like the regular season panned out.

You talk about being 17th.

What is the point, we were 17th in 2019-20.

So we have a fresh Rittich and Talbot got his confidence.

That is the point for this season and playoffs.

Did the defense learn anything as the season wound down?

Will the forwards be up to speed or rusty?

 

I don't think there is any way to predict how teams will finish out the season.

Since the AHL, CHL and some of the other competing leagues' seasons are done, you might have some players jump into play.

A basement team could fill the ranks with AHL'er to gauge readiness or tank.

Previous contenders could be pretenders.

That just points to a different looking race and seeding potentially.

 

What does that all mean, Gene?  

Any team could be as good as their best run of the season or worst.

It's why I talked about having goalies that could stop the puck. 

 

What do....points mean?

 

So, if you have more points that means you're winning more and tying more.

 

If you have less points that means you're losing more.

 

You get 2 points for a win,

1 point for a tie, tied loss

0 points for a loss in regulation 

 

;)

 

ps... here's another way to make it less complicated: 
http://web.archive.org/web/20190308011542/http://www.nhl.com/standings/2018/league

 

1 year previous to the stop of play, Flames were 5th overall in the NHL.  Most notably, 2nd overall in goals with Gaudreau leading the way.   That was when I was begging for us to trade him and getting nothing but heat for it.   So that's done.   You are correct that anything is possible in this world, but that doesn't make it probable.   The prognosis with this core is pretty clear now with their direction and size and age.

 

 

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13 minutes ago, jjgallow said:

 

What do....points mean?

 

So, if you have more points that means you're winning more and tying more.

 

If you have less points that means you're losing more.

 

You get 2 points for a win,

1 point for a tie, tied loss

0 points for a loss in regulation 

 

;)

 

ps... here's another way to make it less complicated: 
http://web.archive.org/web/20190308011542/http://www.nhl.com/standings/2018/league

 

1 year previous to the stop of play, Flames were 5th overall in the NHL.  Most notably, 2nd overall with Gaudreau leading the way.   That was when I was begging for us to trade him and getting nothing but heat for it.   So that's done.   You are correct that anything is possible in this world, but that doesn't make it probable.   The prognosis with this core is pretty clear now with their direction and size and age.

 

 

 

 

I don't believe wins and more points always means that players are trying more. 

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That Halak extension with the Bruins, should set a bit of a bar for Talbot, if the Flames keep him

 

Granted, Halak is older than Talbot and he recognizes the great fit he has in Boston, Halak is a better goalie than Talbot. I just can’t see Talbot cashing in this year.

 

Free agent goalies this summer include, Holtby, Markstrom, Lehner, Crawford, Greiss, Khudobin.

 

 Khudobin and Greiss are probably in Talbot territory skill wise. 

 

I would offer Talbot 2.75x2. If that’s a no-go then I would look at Greiss

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8 minutes ago, Thebrewcrew said:

That Halak extension with the Bruins, should set a bit of a bar for Talbot, if the Flames keep him

 

Granted, Halak is older than Talbot and he recognizes the great fit he has in Boston, Halak is a better goalie than Talbot. I just can’t see Talbot cashing in this year.

 

Free agent goalies this summer include, Holtby, Markstrom, Lehner, Crawford, Greiss, Khudobin.

 

 Khudobin and Greiss are probably in Talbot territory skill wise. 

 

I would offer Talbot 2.75x2. If that’s a no-go then I would look at Greiss

 

Seems there is some bad blood between Talbot and Flames, we can assume he won't sign with them.

 

He basically felt under-utilized.

 

In a sense I agree with this, as the Flames over-utilized Riitich for reasons which entirely defy logic in hindsight.   That said, I agree with you..Talbot could have a rough go of it on the open market right now.

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9 minutes ago, jjgallow said:

 

Seems there is some bad blood between Talbot and Flames, we can assume he won't sign with them.

 

He basically felt under-utilized.

 

In a sense I agree with this, as the Flames over-utilized Riitich for reasons which entirely defy logic in hindsight.   That said, I agree with you..Talbot could have a rough go of it on the open market right now.

I agree with you. And I can’t blame Talbot really, he should have seen more action than 100%.

 

Ward said as much in a recent radio hit, said they overplayed Rittich early (obviously) and wishes he got Talbot more playing time.

 

 

 

 

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On 5/2/2020 at 4:25 PM, jjgallow said:

 

Seems there is some bad blood between Talbot and Flames, we can assume he won't sign with them.

 

He basically felt under-utilized.

 

In a sense I agree with this, as the Flames over-utilized Riitich for reasons which entirely defy logic in hindsight.   That said, I agree with you..Talbot could have a rough go of it on the open market right now.

 

He wanted to be paid like a starter.

He's paid like a good backup.

I don't think there's bad blood, just that he wants more.

30 other teams can make an offer if they desire, but there haven't been too many starter openings.

he'll play where the opportunity (2nd) and money (1st) is.

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Seems to me Talbot's beef was more with Peters and less the organization. He speaks really highly of the organization so I don't see it as bad blood. If Ward is back and they are willing to let it be an open competition I see a scenario where Talbot's back.

 

There are not many other areas that jump out as fits but i'm also not that broken up if he moves on. 

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1 hour ago, cross16 said:

Seems to me Talbot's beef was more with Peters and less the organization. He speaks really highly of the organization so I don't see it as bad blood. If Ward is back and they are willing to let it be an open competition I see a scenario where Talbot's back.

 

There are not many other areas that jump out as fits but i'm also not that broken up if he moves on. 

 

 

I agree. All he is saying is that he has proven (in his head, not everyone's) that he played himself into starter discussions, which was his goal. Whether he did or not is up for debate as I think he played himself into more starts, but not necessarily the starter's role. One thing he proved in Edmonton was that he could handle a lot of starts, but then also proved that it could be bad for a goalie to start as much as he did. 


He even went as far to say he likes Rittich, so I don't see where the problem is with what he has said. I think they'd be a perfect tandem as Rittich has proven in previous years to be ready after missing a few games... But I see him as good for 3 and then deteriorates after that. I think a 3 games on, 3 games off would be good for them - ish. Although, I like the idea of going 3 games on, two games off, two games on, three games off.... Keep both goalies going. 

 

I think the biggest problem with not playing Talbot was that it took him awhile to get going, and then having to sit for a number of games again, which could attribute to his tentative nature in some games. 

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On 4/26/2020 at 11:29 AM, jjgallow said:

 

All that said, I think you start with goaltending, always.   Not to blame goaltending.  It's just the most challenging development piece.  And the other positions are dependant on it.

 

 

I look at what Columbus did after Bobs left to Florida. Where'd they find those kids? I could see why they didn't feel a need to re-sign him. But where is it?

 

I feel like a #1C is the most important position. Monahan is good, but isn't great! He's a great goal scorer, and could be categorized as an elite scorer, yet, does everything else either good, to below average. Backlund has skill and is great at pushing play up the ice but is sporadic in his play. If he were consistent he'd be the perfect #2 guy. Lindolm could be a good #2 guy as well, but he is well suited for a 1st or 2nd line RW. Monahan is a 1st line scorer, but probably a 2nd or 3rd line C in all other aspects of the game. What we really lack is a #1C. If we could imalgamate Backlund and Monahan as a player, it's what we'd want, which was a failed experiment when Ward tried it. I don't know if it is Monahan's lack of speed that is holding him back. It definitely doesn't allow him to play on a line with Tkachuk. 

 

Tkachuk has elite skill, but lacks speed to get him into elite category. He's easy to shut down when it comes to the big games, because once a team ignores him, he ends up trying hard to continue his antics that he gets himself out of the game. Although, that will probably change as he gets older. 

 

It's like you say, the team is aging out quickly, in a young man's league. I'd say they have about 3-5 more years left before they start to really age out. They need to find a way to figure out this motivation factor. By-in large, the Flames are actually really lucky to have these guys on these contracts. I still think we need an elite C.

 

I think that you could be right about the goalies in that Rittich hasn't proven to be a starter, but a really really good backup or 1B. Talbot hasn't proven anything with this Flames team, he looks up and down and that's the part that scares me about him, is that he can look good, then look like he has nerves creep into his game. 

 

Let's go looking elsewhere for goalies.... I am noticing that a lot of Canadian goalies aren't cutting it. Has the US developed any of note recently? I think we need to scour the European leagues, they seem to be developing better goalies. 

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Behind a paywall at the Athletic but Rutherford being pretty honest that the cap is likely going to force him to trade one of Matt Murray or Tristan Jarry. 

 

Flames have been linked to Murray in the past. 

 

https://theathletic.com/1795631/2020/05/05/jim-rutherford-says-trading-one-of-his-goaltenders-might-be-inevitable/

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13 minutes ago, cross16 said:

Behind a paywall at the Athletic but Rutherford being pretty honest that the cap is likely going to force him to trade one of Matt Murray or Tristan Jarry. 

 

Flames have been linked to Murray in the past. 

 

https://theathletic.com/1795631/2020/05/05/jim-rutherford-says-trading-one-of-his-goaltenders-might-be-inevitable/

 

 

He hasn't been the goalie he was since before the Fleury deal. My bro is a die-hard Pens fan and hates him. He feels like he wasn't the right choice between the two. But then, maybe his fandom of Fleury is blurring the image. But he said he hasn't been able to get it done the last few years. Maybe it's the whole safety net of having Fleury backing him up, being the man? Or Could he have been injured a bit since? Maybe take a chance on Jarry? 

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It would certainly be Murray that Pittsburgh trades. Jarry was better this year and will be much cheaper to extend than Murray. 
 

Is he better than Rittich? Sure. You can’t deny his resume is impressive. But IMO  the best ability is availability and you can’t count on Murray for more than 50 games. He is extremely injury prone. I get that the NHL is trending more to a 50 game starter, but I’m not sure the difference between Murray and Rittich is worth it given the situation regarding the cap. Murray will likely make almost double of Rittich’s 2.75, is that worth it for a 50 game starter?

 

If the Flames landed Murray, they would also need a backup making close to league minimum. That’s a bit scary when you should expect 30+ games out of Murray’s backup
 

 

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They would definitely trade Murray and I would also be worried about the injuries.

 

We don't need no Gary Leeman trade.   But that's info we just don't have.

 

I don't think availability is a big part of goalie value imho.    I think playoff performance is imho.

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1 hour ago, jjgallow said:

 

 

I don't think availability is a big part of goalie value imho.    I think playoff performance is imho.

Definitely a good point. Only issue is it's hard to get to the playoffs if your starter misses a bunch of time.

 

It would only be a good move for the Flames if they can figure out how to manage their goalies, which I am skeptical of. If we think Rittich has been injury prone this year... then Murray would be an eye opener.

 

If they can have a definitive plan and stick to it, then by all means go after Murray. Something like the Bruins have with Rask and Halak.

 

But no question Murray's playoff resume is very very good , he certainly is a money goalie in his young career

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19 minutes ago, Thebrewcrew said:

Definitely a good point. Only issue is it's hard to get to the playoffs if your starter misses a bunch of time.

 

It would only be a good move for the Flames if they can figure out how to manage their goalies, which I am skeptical of. If we think Rittich has been injury prone this year... then Murray would be an eye opener.

 

If they can have a definitive plan and stick to it, then by all means go after Murray. Something like the Bruins have with Rask and Halak.

 

But no question Murray's playoff resume is very very good , he certainly is a money goalie in his young career


 

he also plays for the Penguins with the best 1-2 punch in the game. Crosby is still probably the best all-rounded player in the game. They had a coach who got the team going and ended up winning two in a row. I don’t see Murray elevating the Flames team to the cup and winning it. 
 

I think a goalie can do wonders but they’re also only as good as a team in front of them. Price should have more cups than he has if that were the case.

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1 hour ago, robrob74 said:


 

he also plays for the Penguins with the best 1-2 punch in the game. Crosby is still probably the best all-rounded player in the game. They had a coach who got the team going and ended up winning two in a row. I don’t see Murray elevating the Flames team to the cup and winning it. 
 

I think a goalie can do wonders but they’re also only as good as a team in front of them. Price should have more cups than he has if that were the case.

 

I agree.   Reluctantly, because I have been a Murray fan.    It's way too hard to read him right now.   And it's not like the Flames can just "take a chance" on him.

 

The costs of acquiring him are substantial.  He may never perform.   And even if he does, we'd have to give up too much to get him and we just wouldn't be the team in front of him that Pittsburgh was with that cost in the equation.

 

IMHO we need a goalie young enough for a rebuild.  He'll be closer to 30 than 20 next season unfortunately, with spotty health and high cost.

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No surprise but now official. Wolf wins goalie of the year in the WHL

 

 

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Really hoping the WJC is able to go in December. Great chance to get a glance at Wolf, as the Americans will be playing in Red Deer

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