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The Official Monahan Thread

Monahan staying the right choice?  

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  1. 1. Monahan staying the right choice?



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A good recent example of this team stunting young players is Horak and Byron, both were just getting to the point where they needed NHL level competition but then cam here and were back to the AHL which provided limited to no competition for them, their development stalled because if this.  Now last year Horak took a big step forward, why?  easy answer, he was getting quality mins at the NHL level to challenge him to improve.

 

Totally do not agree with Horak because he went the AHL route and his overall game today is many times better than his game a year ago when he was inconsistent from one game to the next.  It looks like the AHL actually helped him find a role and he's taken it in strides.  You can't say it's stunted his development.  What were you expecting anyways?  Top 6?  He was always going to be a 3rd liner who could take on spot duty on the 2nd line but that was the projection from Day 1.  He's arrived, thanks to the AHL.

 

Byron you can make a case for because he never became anything with AHL development.

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I think the key (rarely mentioned) for young players is teaching and forming chemistry with team mates.

If we were to send Sean back to the Ahl he would be on a consistent line and would benefit from the chemistry that would be created.

If we were to bring Sean up and play him with different line mates every game I could see him struggling and under this circumstance benefit more in the AHL.

 

So lets say we Start right now and put 5 young guys together for a  complete 3rd or 4th line and have the 5 of them virtually inseparable for the year.  Let them work out, practice. and preseason games together having them push each other to get that game chemistry.

 

Start with Monahan C, Baertschi LW, Tim Harrison RW  Ramage RD, Wotherspoon LD

Just 5 I picked but whatever 5 that would be best stick with it.

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I think the key (rarely mentioned) for young players is teaching and forming chemistry with team mates.

If we were to send Sean back to the Ahl he would be on a consistent line and would benefit from the chemistry that would be created.

If we were to bring Sean up and play him with different line mates every game I could see him struggling and under this circumstance benefit more in the AHL.

 

So lets say we Start right now and put 5 young guys together for a  complete 3rd or 4th line and have the 5 of them virtually inseparable for the year.  Let them work out, practice. and preseason games together having them push each other to get that game chemistry.

 

Start with Monahan C, Baertschi LW, Tim Harrison RW  Ramage RD, Wotherspoon LD

Just 5 I picked but whatever 5 that would be best stick with it.

Monahan can't play in the AHL, he's not old enough.  Either the Flames keep him or send him back for the year to the CHL.

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Sending him to the CHL is no biggy. It will be a good year for him. Let's see... he doesn't go back down until late October/early November once he's played his 9 games. Then it's World Juniors in December/January. Then in February he gets traded to a Memorial Cup contender because the 67's won't be in the race. So really he will play limited games on the bad 67's and spend most of the time with the Flames, World Juniors or a Memorial Cup contender.

 

With that considered I hope he stays down this year after his 9 games. No point in rushing him. We are a long way from being a competitive team anyway.

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Sending him to the CHL is no biggy. It will be a good year for him. Let's see... he doesn't go back down until late October/early November once he's played his 9 games. Then it's World Juniors in December/January. Then in February he gets traded to a Memorial Cup contender because the 67's won't be in the race. So really he will play limited games on the bad 67's and spend most of the time with the Flames, World Juniors or a Memorial Cup contender.

 

With that considered I hope he stays down this year after his 9 games. No point in rushing him. We are a long way from being a competitive team anyway.

I don't have a problem with sending him down. I do have a problem for sending him down for those reasons. Those reasons have nothing to do with meritocracy at all.

 

Then again maybe your goal is to ice the poorest team possible to finish near the bottom and get a high pick.

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A winning mentality is just as important in development as skill development is. 

You can't tell your skilled prospects 'No, were sending you down because you're too good for our lineup and might actually get us some wins'. 

Winning, competing and having a good, healthy dose of a good mentality, attitude and atmosphere is equally important as skill development, which is why a few of us are hesitant on seeing him back with the Ottawa 67's. 

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The other thing is, after 7 years in the NHL, Monahan can turn UFA.  That means it would serve the Flames better in the "long run" to make sure he is truly ready so that the first year or two of contract rights aren't wasted.

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The other thing is, after 7 years in the NHL, Monahan can turn UFA.  That means it would serve the Flames better in the "long run" to make sure he is truly ready so that the first year or two of contract rights aren't wasted.

It all hinges if the 67s can and are willing to trade him. If he is just going to be sent down to them then its not worth it. The Flames can shelter his even strength minutes and give him lots of special team minutes and some time with guys like Glencross, Hudler and Sven. Im only for sending him back down to the CHL if its not on a rebuilding team.

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It all hinges if the 67s can and are willing to trade him. If he is just going to be sent down to them then its not worth it. The Flames can shelter his even strength minutes and give him lots of special team minutes and some time with guys like Glencross, Hudler and Sven. Im only for sending him back down to the CHL if its not on a rebuilding team.

 

Rebuilds in the CHL can sometimes be overnight.  Rosters turn over quickly for all teams.  Older players are run out of the league and bad teams one year could find themselves to be pretty good the next just because of the age of their core.  The 67's were brutal last season but they could be average this year.

 

Great players should be able to make players around him better.  I'd like to see Monahan turn a 40-point linemate into a 75-point linemate.  I'd like to see him succeed despite having to face the other team's best defenders.  I want to see him learn to use his abilities to dominate.  I want to see him above and beyond his peer group at 18/19 years of age.

 

One more season in Juniors would do wonders for Monahan.  Next year, we can shelter him on the 4th line.

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I don't have a problem with sending him down. I do have a problem for sending him down for those reasons. Those reasons have nothing to do with meritocracy at all.

 

Then again maybe your goal is to ice the poorest team possible to finish near the bottom and get a high pick.

 

Meritocracy just based on points isn't always a long term solution. Look at RNH's "great" second year in the NHL. Undersized, injury plauged and without confidence. That's rushing a guy. Meritocracy is more than how many points Monahan can put up in 9 games. It's about his overall maturity. Something the coaches will need to judge.

 

If Monahan today is the difference in the team's success, that's a big problem. 

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Meritocracy just based on points isn't always a long term solution. Look at RNH's "great" second year in the NHL. Undersized, injury plauged and without confidence. That's rushing a guy. Meritocracy is more than how many points Monahan can put up in 9 games. It's about his overall maturity. Something the coaches will need to judge.

 

If Monahan today is the difference in the team's success, that's a big problem. 

Oilers don't use Meritocray thinking. RNH's second year problems isn't a comparable, it was because he was too small and injured his shoulder.

 

The only similarity is the Oilers had to ask themselves RNH in his 1st year if sending him down was going to do him any good. After 9 games up with the Oilers they decided his skillset was too high level for him to progress in JR Hockey.

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Rebuilds in the CHL can sometimes be overnight.  Rosters turn over quickly for all teams.  Older players are run out of the league and bad teams one year could find themselves to be pretty good the next just because of the age of their core.  The 67's were brutal last season but they could be average this year.

 

Great players should be able to make players around him better.  I'd like to see Monahan turn a 40-point linemate into a 75-point linemate.  I'd like to see him succeed despite having to face the other team's best defenders.  I want to see him learn to use his abilities to dominate.  I want to see him above and beyond his peer group at 18/19 years of age.

 

One more season in Juniors would do wonders for Monahan.  Next year, we can shelter him on the 4th line.

Ok for the first part. I have no problem with Monahan playing another year in the OHL.( If he can not handle the NHL) But the part of this that is TOTAL BUNK is that you think putting a player like Monahan on the fourth line to shelter him.  What a way to destroy a kids confidence and limit his ice time with skilled players.  How the hell do you expect him to progress?

 

So if he plays one more year in the OHL then great. He will see lots of ice time and gain another year in maturity. But the year after he either has to play AHL top 6 minutes or if he is in the NHL he should be played on the 2nd or 3rd lines ( sheltered by not playing against the top lines) But to play him 4-7 minutes a night would be retarded plain and simple.

 

But He does have a chance to make the big club this year.  It all depends on his progress this summer and in main camp. If he makes it it should be the same thing, 2nd or 3rd line sheltered from the opposing  the top lines. Not this fourth line crap. If they are going to play him in a fourth line role he is better off in the OHL next year. Playing a skilled guy on the fourth line to shelter him does nothing but stunt his growth.

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Saying the Flames award play time and roster spots based on meritocracy is like saying you should always draft BPA.  Both are accurate.  But both are incomplete.  

 

Best Player Available (BPA) is influenced by where the club ranks attributes.  It is entirely subjective and the decision on where each prospect ranks is different from club to club and scout to scout.  It would also be naive to think that factors like size, position, the handedness of the player, etc don't have some influence on the selections.  

 

The same is true for meritocracy.  Factors like size, position, play style, handedness, experience, player potential, chemistry, etc all play a role in who is selected.  Sure if all things are equal the hardest working and most successful player gets the time or position.  But all meritocracy means is that prospects and players have an opportunity to work themselves onto (and off of) the roster.  But it isn't some absolute decision making process that overrides every other factor.  

 

The Flames have already said that a preference will be given to prospects over veterans.  I don't think that means that the kids are going to be handed out jobs without earning them.  But it does mean they have the edge in the competition for spots over guys that aren't part of the teams future.  

 

I think that makes it easier for Monahan to make the roster then it was for, say, Baertschi after he was drafted.  I think the Flames would prefer he makes the roster.  Which is why I think they have to be careful in rushing him.  

 

I am less concerned about him playing the fourth line.  I think playing against sheltered NHLers for a period of time isn't the worst thing for him.  I also think this roster is structured in a way that there is plenty of opportunity for him to work his way up the lines.  

 

But I am concerned about the Flames elevating him before he is ready because of optics and it hampers his confidence and development.  As I said above taking your time developing a prospect almost never hurts their development.  But many many many prospects have been hampered by being rushed.  Many of them by teams fresh into a rebuild.

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Our best move with Monahan for the next to years is to Always make sure he's playing on the first line, and is the team leader.

 

If he's not doing that, we've got him in the wrong league.

 

He's projected to be a 2nd-liner, with an outside chance of being a first-liner.  

 

If we want that first-line center, or a world-class 2nd line center, we need to develop him to that exact role.

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Oilers don't use Meritocray thinking. RNH's second year problems isn't a comparable, it was because he was too small and injured his shoulder.

 

The only similarity is the Oilers had to ask themselves RNH in his 1st year if sending him down was going to do him any good. After 9 games up with the Oilers they decided his skillset was too high level for him to progress in JR Hockey.

 

Monahan isn't a super skilled player so I don't think his issue will be playing way beyond his peers. If we want him to hit full potential as a two way centre, he's going to need to build more confidence before having him trying to shut down top NHL'ers.

 

I think Monahan will be much slower to develop than most. Most two way centres are. He has the advantage of being old for his draft class, but I don't see the point in rushing him now unless he's demonstrating that the CHL is way way way too easy. Which I don't think we've seen from him yet.

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Our best move with Monahan for the next to years is to Always make sure he's playing on the first line, and is the team leader.

 

If he's not doing that, we've got him in the wrong league.

 

He's projected to be a 2nd-liner, with an outside chance of being a first-liner.  

 

If we want that first-line center, or a world-class 2nd line center, we need to develop him to that exact role.

Sean Couturier is a 2 way (like Monahan) & projected as a 2nd to 1st liner. Started on the 3rd & expanded his defensive part by getting that NHL confidence. Still quite likely to move up lines to add the offence.

 

Monahan will either up his offence or not but taking away the defense changes him from that 2 way player he was drafted to be. There are examples on 2 way centers that can light up the league but still play responsible defense. Dale Hawerchuk is 1 (pushed to 3C because TC had guys names Gretzky & Lemieux) but moved to an all center line in the '87 Canada Cup. He won the face-off that led to the Lemieux to Gretzky winner. Stopping  the Russian trying to tie up Lemieux sealed the win. (He was named MVP)

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Sean Couturier is a 2 way (like Monahan) & projected as a 2nd to 1st liner. Started on the 3rd & expanded his defensive part by getting that NHL confidence. Still quite likely to move up lines to add the offence.

 

I feel like the Flyers rushed Couturier and his offensive confidence has been shaken because of it.  I don't see Couturier as a big points guy as much as he could've been when he was drafted.

 

Between B.Schenn and Couturier, the Flyers forced them into the roles vacated by Richards and Carter and the two youngsters have clearly been injured both physically and mentally from the pressure of it all.  They just weren't ready to take on those roles.  They were only ready to be 4th liners.  They needed more seasoning in Juniors and the minors.

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I feel like the Flyers rushed Couturier and his offensive confidence has been shaken because of it.  I don't see Couturier as a big points guy as much as he could've been when he was drafted.

 

Between B.Schenn and Couturier, the Flyers forced them into the roles vacated by Richards and Carter and the two youngsters have clearly been injured both physically and mentally from the pressure of it all.  They just weren't ready to take on those roles.  They were only ready to be 4th liners.  They needed more seasoning in Juniors and the minors.

Or you might say that Couturier only went through his sophomore slump.

or

You might say you are a victim over hyped & higher expectations for Couturier and he failed to meet those expectations. Who gave you those high expectations in the first place?

or

You could say that sometimes it takes some 20yr olds(he is only 20 yrs old) a tad longer to develop their scoring abilities in the NHL.

or

You could say it is any or a combo of all the above too.

 

Personally I'll go with the sophomore slump.

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I feel like the Flyers rushed Couturier and his offensive confidence has been shaken because of it.  I don't see Couturier as a big points guy as much as he could've been when he was drafted.

 

Between B.Schenn and Couturier, the Flyers forced them into the roles vacated by Richards and Carter and the two youngsters have clearly been injured both physically and mentally from the pressure of it all.  They just weren't ready to take on those roles.  They were only ready to be 4th liners.  They needed more seasoning in Juniors and the minors.

So all talented youngsters should go ? years before playing in the NHL?

 

Brayden Schenn had 9 NHL games & 7 AHL before the Flyers "forced" him into a role @ 21 (2 years after he was drafted 1/5). So Monahan  1/6 should be 22-23-24 before we bring him up?

Couturier just proved himself & earned a spot. His defensive play alone was enough to merit that role.

Both knew they couldn't replace Richie & Carts but Couts is closer (& Mike is still 1of my favorite players).

 

If you see them as 4th liners you certainly have high standards. :)

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So all talented youngsters should go ? years before playing in the NHL?

 

Brayden Schenn had 9 NHL games & 7 AHL before the Flyers "forced" him into a role @ 21 (2 years after he was drafted 1/5). So Monahan  1/6 should be 22-23-24 before we bring him up?

Couturier just proved himself & earned a spot. His defensive play alone was enough to merit that role.

Both knew they couldn't replace Richie & Carts but Couts is closer (& Mike is still 1of my favorite players).

 

If you see them as 4th liners you certainly have high standards. :)

 

? = 3 years for most projected top-6 forwards

? = 2 years for most projected to be  forward first-liners.  

? = 1 year for most projected superstars     (Iggy)

? = 0 years for a very select few                  (Crosby)

 

Defencemen:  Add roughly one year.

Goalies:  Add three.

 

Exceptions to this rule are usually based on size, skating, and intelligence.   I think that Monahan has the size, skating and intelligence to be an NHLer in two years, even though his projection would normally put him at 3 years.

 

The Flyers have not made the best decisions with their player development, imho.

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It's up to Monahan to prove he's not ready. I've seen him all of 3 times live in jr, and he's been the smartest player on the ice, so we need to temper expectations regarding stats.

He does a lot of things well to negate not having that initial jump speed. He really protects the puck and knows where to put it and when, he uses the ice well and finds space. He gets back on D like a C should and pressures the puck well.

For me, those are great attributes to have moving to pro, all that worries me is the accelerated tempo of the game compared to jr. Huge difference.

If he does stick, I'd be happy with a top 9 role, but 4th line is such limited ice time, it's not worth it.

I have this sneaking suspicion he intends to prove he's ready for the bigs.

Last year was definitely a character builder for him on a lousy team.

I watched a lot of OHL last year, and Monahan would've been the best player on a lot of teams, including the Knights.

He's the guy I wanted us to take and I'll stand by that. Solid C who WANTS the responsibility, and I'm confident he'll work his butt off to stay here.

Regardless of whether it happens this year, solid 2-way centers are a huge commodity, and he's close.

It's really hard to ruin the development of the best player coming from the worst team, he motivated himself through that, and it didn't kill him...character is vastly underrated.

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Do we have a nickname for him yet?

Shomo? Lacks a little imagination and a bit generic but at least it gets the ball rolling. Anyway, he will probably have to show mo to make it to the final roster! 

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Do we have a nickname for him yet?

I am kind of fond of "Money/Mony" for a nickname but think a tad early in his Flames career to put that handle on him.

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Do we have a nickname for him yet?

 

Shomo?

 

I can not even begin to describe why that is a bad plan without Peeps giving me warning points again... :ph34r:.......... :lol:

 

 

think a tad early in his Flames career to put that handle on him.

 

Agreed...   :)

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