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Brad Treliving - GM Tracking & Evaluation

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Searched for a thread on Treliving's moves and didn't find one. 

 

Treliving became the Flames 7th GM on April 28th, 2014. This was also the day Peter Maher announced his retirement - definitely a date to mark the emergence of the new Flames.

 

This thread is to track, evaluate and discuss his moves since being hired. BT has largely inherited a ideal GM situation but this team does not have his long-term mark on it yet. It will as time goes on. His moves so far are:  

 

Trades

 

March 2, 2015 - trades Sven Baertschi to the Canucks for a 2nd (2015) 

March 1, 2015 - trades Curtis Glencross to the Capitals for a 2nd (2015) and a 3rd (2015)

Jan 9, 2015 - trades Corban Knight to the Panthers for Drew Shore

June 28, 2014 - trades 2014 3rd to the Blackhawks for Brandon Bollig

 

*** June 19, 2015 - trades 1st round pick and two 2nd round picks to the Bruins for Dougie Hamilton *** (This may be one of the best trades in Flames history) 

July 1, 2015 - trades rights to Max Reinhart to the Preds for a conditional 4th round pick.

 

2014 Draft for BT

 

Sam Bennet (4th)

Mason McDonald (34th)

Hunter Smith (54th)

Brandon Hickey (64th)

Ollas Mattsson (175th)

Austin Carrol (184th)

 

2015 Draft for BT

 

Rasmus Andersson (53rd overall)

Oliver Kylington (60th overall)

Pavel Karnaukhov (136 overall)

Andrew Mangiapane (166 overall) 

Riley Bruce (196 overall) 

 

Signings / Waivers:

 

2014

 

Mason Raymond - 3yrs @ 3.15

Jonas Hiller - 2yrs @ 4.5

Deryk Engelland - 3yrs @ 2.9 

Devon Setoguchi - 1yr @ 1.75

Kris Russell - 2 years @ 2.6 million 

Joe Colburne - 2 yrs 1.275

Joni Ortio  - 2 yrs @ 600K

T.J Brodie - 5 yrs @ 4.65

Potter - 1 yr @ 700K

Diaz - 1yr @ 750K 

David Schlemko  (waivers)

 

( Coach Hartley to a multi-year deal )

 

2015

 

Mikael Backlund - 3 years @ 3.75

Michael Frolik - 5 years @ 4.3 

Dougie Hamilton - 6 years @ 5.75

Karri Ramo - 1 year @ 3.8

Lance Bouma - 3 years @ 2.2

Josh Jooris - 1 year @ 975K

 

 

+++++++++++++++++++++++

 

Fills out his management ranks (keeps Craig Conroy and promotes to Assistant GM, hires Brad Pascall as Assistant GM and hires Troy Crowder in player developement) - Fires Troy Ward and Robbie Ftorek (Heat's coaches) and fires Flames Goalie coach Clint Malarchuk / hires Jordan Sigalet as Goalie coach. Hires Ryan Huska as new coach of the Heat / Adirondack Flames

 

+++++++++++++++++++++++

 

Off-season is usually the busiest time for a GM and I will continue to track BT's significant moves as time goes on. 

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BT gets a passing grade for me so far. He has shown patience and he knows he is rebuilding a club. He has largely been cautious but shown willingness to pick guys off waivers or give them a go. Doing so at little cost to the team.

 

The only mis-step may be Engelland's contract which strikes me as high... But he hit it out of the park with Brodie's contract. The Sven trade is not ideal but I think when a player demands to be traded you cut the GM slack. I am very interested to see how the off-season goes. 

Will he remain patient and measured knowing he is rebuilding a club or will Burke's famous lack of patience on rebuilds have him looking over his shoulder to accelerate moves? 

 

(Thanks Rocketdoc) 

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Great idea.  If you are up for maintaining it, this would be quite the insightful addition to these boards.  Why not inspect the work of the GM's hands going forward? 

 

Feaster had his many blunders, and his praises.  He's one of the most controversial GM's the Flames have had to date and many discussions and arguments have sprouted from his tenure.

 

It'll be good to see the progression of Treliving with clearer eyes.

 

+1 from me.

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Yes, i'll maintain it. It isn't too bad if you are a day to day follower - these kind of things usually get put up at the end of a GM's tenure but I want to keep tabs on BT - I wish I had done it during D Sutter's watch because there was that one year he seemed to be drunk dialing from the GM chair...

I like the Flames current set-up with Burke in the background as a check and balance on BT. The Flames changing their management structure may have been the great lesson from the D Sutter years... 

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BT gets a passing grade for me so far. He has shown patience and he knows he is rebuilding a club. He has largely been cautious but shown willingness to pick guys off waivers or give them a go. Doing so at little cost to the team.

 

The only mis-step may be Engelland's contract which strikes me as high... But he hit it out of the park with Brodie's contract. The Sven trade is not ideal but I think when a player demands to be traded you cut the GM slack. I am very interested to see how the off-season goes. 

Will he remain patient and measured knowing he is rebuilding a club or will Burke's famous lack of patience on rebuilds have him looking over his shoulder to accelerate moves? 

 

(Thanks Rocketdoc) 

 

I agree that Engelland was an overpayment both in term and dollars.  It did help us get to the cap floor.  He provides toughness that Bollig can't, due to minutes and competition played.  He can always be bought out.  Not a major issue in my mind.

 

Missed Diaz signing I think.  Was a good value pickup, moreso than Potter.  But both have played this year due to injuries.

 

My biggest problem with Baertschi is the timing of it.  It deleted a player from Addy, and gave a possible division opponent an asset for a draft pick.  It's not like a 31st overall pick, it will be in the 40's.  The opther problem was the disconnect bewteen coaching and management.  He should not have been recalled if he wasn't going to be played.

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Flame111, what about Potter 1yr @700 and Diaz 1yr @750?

 

Also I believe that Raymond will turn out to be his worst contract as we had/have no defensive depth when Engelland was signed and his play has gotten better when moved away from Smid.  I see him(Engelland) as being a good not great #5 as he has done okay with top 4 minutes but should not be there all year.  As for Raymond I have a hard time slotting him in our lineup next year, I know some of you will say he was here to replace Cammalleri's production but we were and are in a rebuild so why did we need to do that?  We could have played someone else there but that is another topic.

 

I am very interested as to how he does this offseason, draft included since I don't think he had much impact in last years other that picking off the list(didn't really have time to help create it), as I believe it will be very interesting and pivatol to our future.

 

 

Edit; I agree with the above with regard to Baertschi as he is the player I think could have and should have gotten Raymonds spot, still open to trading him but maybe we could have gotten more if he was in the NHL, don't think he could have been drastically worse.  I just don't see Raymond as playing the style of hockey we are trying to build go forward.

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Nice job +1 here too.  I think this summer between re-signings, the Draft and trades will be monumental in terms of the next few years...

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I'm still not a big fan of Engelland, but I think the way he has stepped up since Giordano's injury justifies his contract... at least for this season. So that's one signing I would have counted as a big loss for Treliving earlier in the season, but I would now count as a win.

 

Of course, with two years left, there's still room for that signing to swing back to the loss side. But I just thought I'd give BT some credit for one signing that has been very unpopular. It did pay off in the end, sort of.

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I think you need to analyse why Raymond was signed when he was. Glencross suffered some serious knee issues at the end of 2014 so who knew what he would deliver this season. Gaudreau was an unknown commodity so IMO we lacked significant players on LW. I think Raymond has done just fine providing some much needed scoring while adding some experience to the forward ranks. I think we will need him around for next year because you always need scoring.

 

BTW what "style" of hockey is it you see being formed that Raymond wouldn't be a fit ?

 

I always saw Raymond as insurance for Glencross vs ever trying to replace Cammalleri.

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I think you need to analyse why Raymond was signed when he was. Glencross suffered some serious knee issues at the end of 2014 so who knew what he would deliver this season. Gaudreau was an unknown commodity so IMO we lacked significant players on LW. I think Raymond has done just fine providing some much needed scoring while adding some experience to the forward ranks. I think we will need him around for next year because you always need scoring.

 

BTW what "style" of hockey is it you see being formed that Raymond wouldn't be a fit ?

 

I always saw Raymond as insurance for Glencross vs ever trying to replace Cammalleri.

Yes I agree.  Its always hard to put yourself in the GM's shoes at the time of the trade, or prior instead of looking back on things with 20/20 hindsight.  Right now Calgary is #6 in GF60 in the league, which I think no one saw coming last summer, especially after Cammi walked, Glencross was hurting (and a likely TDL trade), Monahan's Sophomore Slump was upcoming, Bennett and pull-ups was still a story and JH was just a dreamer's hope, if he didn't get knocked out the first hard check he took in the Big Leagues.  

Morrison needs to be added as well.

Yeah, plus a few others signed at Adirondack, which still comes under BT's purview?

Yes I agree.  Its always hard to put yourself in the GM's shoes at the time of the trade, or prior instead of looking back on things with 20/20 hindsight.  Right now Calgary is #6 in GF60 in the league, which I think no one saw coming last summer, especially after Cammi walked, Glencross was hurting (and a likely TDL trade), Monahan's Sophomore Slump was upcoming, Bennett and pull-ups was still a story and JH was just a dreamer's hope, if he didn't get knocked out the first hard check he took in the Big Leagues.  

Yeah, plus a few others signed at Adirondack, which still comes under BT's purview?

You might also include some non-trades that were heavily scrutinized, even if we don't have all the details.... e.g. Mike Richards out of LA.

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For all the trades, Brad got the best that he could in the situations with GlenX and Sven and the picks that he's gathered for next year in a reportedly deep draft can either help us stock multiple prospects or move up in the draft order. Good job on those. Similarly Shore has been a good pickup. Bollig is more iffy, but hasn't hurt. Solid B there

 

For the draft its too early to tell, but Bennett and McDonald both look to be good NHL players in the forseeable future so a passing grade there.

 

 

As for Signings/Waivers:

 

Mason Raymond - 3yrs @ 3.15 --------------- good in theory, but he's already been surpassed by many prospects on the team and we're likely stuck with him for at least one more year. B-

Jonas Hiller - 2yrs @ 4.5 ------------------------ very good pickup A

Deryk Engelland - 3yrs @ 2.9  ---------------- has stepped up when needed, but overpaid, and early season liability B-

Devon Setoguchi - 1yr @ 1.75 ---------------- everyone has one major mistake F

Kris Russell - 2 years @ 2.6 ------------------- Great pickup and a major leader on and off the Ice A

Joe Colburne - 2 yrs 1.275 --------------------- A good player who can slot in anywhere in the lineup really B+

Joni Ortio  - 2 yrs @ 600K --------------------- Future starter, though a longer contract would be nice A-

T.J Brodie - 5 yrs @ 4.65 ----------------------- Probable future Norris winner, part of the top D-pairing in the league with healthy Gio A

Potter - 1 yr @ 700K ----------------------------- Other than providing a body in injury situations and playing in the AHL hasn't added anything, but only a one year contract C

Diaz - 1yr @ 750K  ------------------------------- Has done well on the third pairing, may have a place here next year B

David Schlemko  (waivers)---------------------- Has done well on the third pairing, may have a place here next year and was free! B+

 

Overall a B grade

 

 

 

 

So overall a B grade for everything. Some poor signings, but for the most part quite good. Not outstanding, but good. He's put us ina g ood position for success both this year and in the future.

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Darth, I give your ratings an F. Simply because you don't seem to recognize that there is no gain without risk.

 

Setoguchi was a low-cost gamble. The signing and subsequent handling was done perfectly. He was given a chance to succeed, didn't and was gone. If he had've been signed for more, or for a longer term, then I could agree with a poor rating.

 

Ortio for 2y is also a smart signing. A longer term would necessitate more money, since Ortio and everyone has reason to believe he will be worth more money 2 years from now. But if Ortio didn't work out, then you'd be stuck with a non-performing asset at a high cost.

 

Don't quit your day job. You'd make a terrible GM.

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Morrisson needs to be on this list. He was signed to a contract that starts next year, (BT's doing) and he is playing on our farm on an ATO contract so that he doesn't even burn a year of his pro contract (which is an incredibly good move I think).

 

 

Also Darth: How does the Brodie or Russell contracts not get A+ instead of just A, I mean Brodie is really coming into his own and is still growing, and Russell only set two NHL records this year (Most blocked shots in a single game, and most blocked shots in a season. And if it was known, he probably owns the most blocked shots in a period as well).

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Darth, I give your ratings an F. Simply because you don't seem to recognize that there is no gain without risk.

 

Setoguchi was a low-cost gamble. The signing and subsequent handling was done perfectly. He was given a chance to succeed, didn't and was gone. If he had've been signed for more, or for a longer term, then I could agree with a poor rating.

 

Ortio for 2y is also a smart signing. A longer term would necessitate more money, since Ortio and everyone has reason to believe he will be worth more money 2 years from now. But if Ortio didn't work out, then you'd be stuck with a non-performing asset at a high cost.

 

Don't quit your day job. You'd make a terrible GM.

Agree completely with your thinking and ratings, but not going too hard on Darth.  Its always tough being the first to put something out there for everyone that follows to knit pic.  Where's your ratings?

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I agree 100% with the overall rating of B+, short time on the job , and hard to get into the A category without hitting a homerun or 2.

i actually agree with every on of his signings, including Mason Raymond. The one i would actually give him a low grade on is Bouma. 

Yes, he needed to show us more, and yes he was still developing , but in the end he signed a $700K 1 Yr contract , and if im not mistaken he was seeking about 2-3 yrs at around 1.5M.  He will definitely get that and more this summer. But to be fair to Brad , he likely had to take a lot of input from Hartley , and who knew he'd be an invaluable Power forward who suddenly learned how to score

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Agree completely with your thinking and ratings, but not going too hard on Darth.  Its always tough being the first to put something out there for everyone that follows to knit pic.  Where's your ratings?

 

I don't feel qualified to nit pick Treliving's work to date. I do feel that he's making smart moves and taking risks, while taking appropriate steps to shield us from the consequences should those risks not work out.

 

It strikes me as trying to give a performance review to a new employee after he's just started to produce some results. It's too soon to make a judgement on his performance - all you can really comment on is the general direction he seems to be going.

 

As for being hard on Darth, the biggest reason I had for it is that he gave Treliving poor ratings for well-managed gambles that didn't pay off. Nothing is certain and those gambles were all reasonable and sheltered us well if they didn't pay off. We don't want a GM who's unwilling to take any risks.

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Darth, I give your ratings an F. Simply because you don't seem to recognize that there is no gain without risk.

 

Setoguchi was a low-cost gamble. The signing and subsequent handling was done perfectly. He was given a chance to succeed, didn't and was gone. If he had've been signed for more, or for a longer term, then I could agree with a poor rating.

 

Ortio for 2y is also a smart signing. A longer term would necessitate more money, since Ortio and everyone has reason to believe he will be worth more money 2 years from now. But if Ortio didn't work out, then you'd be stuck with a non-performing asset at a high cost.

 

Don't quit your day job. You'd make a terrible GM.

 

Setoguchi may have been a low cost gamble but it was a BAD gamble to take. (see below).

 

Ortio would have cost more money if he'd been given a 4 year contract, that's a given. But the increased cost for a 4 year contract then would actually have been less in total dollar value than 2 years then and 2 years now, where he's proven himself and can now ask for even more money to reflect his value. Essentially we're paying more for the same development curve. That's not good market management. No you don't give him some 8 year contract right out, but 2 years on a goalie who projects as well as he does is a short-sighted contract.

 

I'm sorry you think that my ratings are terrible but we're assessing the RESULTS of these trades, not the potential. And my rankings reflect that.

 

You want to evaluate potential? Then evaluate them when they happen. Not after the results are known.

 

If you get into a car accident you're still going to have to pay for damaging the other person's vehicle. You don't get bonus marks because you thought you could miss him and didn't kill 5 pedestrians in the process.

 

 

Also Darth: How does the Brodie or Russell contracts not get A+ instead of just A, I mean Brodie is really coming into his own and is still growing, and Russell only set two NHL records this year (Most blocked shots in a single game, and most blocked shots in a season. And if it was known, he probably owns the most blocked shots in a period as well).

 

Where I've gone an A and an A+ give the same GPA grade, so to me there's no actual substantive difference other than looking pretty. By giving those an A I'm saying they're as good as you could possibly expect. 

 

As for being hard on Darth, the biggest reason I had for it is that he gave Treliving poor ratings for well-managed gambles that didn't pay off. Nothing is certain and those gambles were all reasonable and sheltered us well if they didn't pay off. We don't want a GM who's unwilling to take any risks.

 

I'm fine with taking GOOD risks. Raymond was a good risk that didn't turn out as well as it could have but had merit when done and thus got a better than average rating. Engellend was a big gamble that turned out kinda neutral given his recent play but we had little other choice given our lack of D depth, so again got a decent mark even though the pay is questionable.

 

Setoguchi was a BAD risk - older player with consistently declining numbers that no other team really wanted to touch and showed no reason why he would suddenly improve here.

 

That's a bad risk that didn't hurt us, but should not have been taken.

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Why was Seto a BAD gamble? Did it cost us the playoff? Did the contract get us in cap hell? Worst case: He plays in the AHL, best case: he gets picked from waiver when sent down. He was no locker room cancer or anything.

 

I would even say Seto put pressure on the other players and they did surpass him, giving them the feeling to surpass an NHL player (more confidence).

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I don't think it's fair to call Setoguchi a bad gamble. I wouldn't have signed him and I thought it was a waste but it didn't cost them anythjng. They had contract space to still add players on waivers if need be and extra signing so while it didn't work out it wasn't a bad move because it didn't cost anythjng even if I didn't approve.

I like Treliving a lot so far. He says the right things and then backs up what he says. His on ice moves are ok so far, not great, but the next step is going to where you see what you have. I'll judge him more next year.

On an aside note there was something he did I thought was pretty cool. After the game when the players left the ice Treliving was right there to give rah and every player a hug and a high five. I thought that was cool.

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Why was Seto a BAD gamble? Did it cost us the playoff? Did the contract get us in cap hell? Worst case: He plays in the AHL, best case: he gets picked from waiver when sent down. He was no locker room cancer or anything.

 

When you gamble there are three possibilities: making the team better, having no real effect on the team, and making the team worse.

 

A Great gamble is when there's a better chance of making the team better than the other two.

A Good gamble is when there's a decent chance of making the team better, but still a chance of the other two.

An OK gamble is when there's some chance of improvement, with some chance of decline.

A Bad gamble is when you have no real chance of improving the team, so it has no effect or makes it worse.

A Horrible gamble is what you describe, having a better than even chance of making the team worse or hamstringing us contract wise. (Cough Phaneuf trade cough)

 

Setogouchi had no real possibility of improving the team any more than a half-dozen prospects to start the season. Therefore there wa NO chance to improve the team with his presence. However, because it was a small money, one year contract, there was no real way to make the team worse either.

 

Therefore, it was a signing that did nothing for the team, making it a bad gamble, because  it couldn't make the team better.

 

Russell is a Great 'gamble' because its pretty much a 100% chance of making the team better.

 

Raymond was a Good gamble because at the time there was a pretty decent chance of making the team better, a small chance of no effect, and pretty difficult to make it worse. He made us better at the beginning, and really has had no effect since injury.

 

Bollig was an OK gamble because he might have made us a little better, or could have been a small liability. He wound up being neither.

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I would rather grade him after he has more years in and puts a big stamp on the team.

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its not a bad gamble to pay someone 750k on a one year contract on the chance he might make your club. I dont necessarily agree with your statement on gambles, as well I dont think you could consider the phaneuf trade a gamble, it worked out great for both teams.

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