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Brad Treliving - GM Tracking & Evaluation

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Once again we will disagree. Raymond was getting a lot of his points playing on RW in the beginning of the season and after suffering an injury was used all over the place, not specifically on the high ground. Nor do I see him standing in the way of Jooris so not sure where you are even going with that ???

I was responding to robrob, but since you have joined the frey, who do you see as our LW for next year ? I will put my money on Raymond being one of them.

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robrob we all know Raymond's game is his speed and quickness. He isn't ever going to muscle to many guys away from the puck but he has the skill to score and when signed that was a huge concern for this team. It may not be now but it was last offseason.

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Once again we will disagree. Raymond was getting a lot of his points playing on RW in the beginning of the season and after suffering an injury was used all over the place, not specifically on the high ground. Nor do I see him standing in the way of Jooris so not sure where you are even going with that ???

I was responding to robrob, but since you have joined the frey, who do you see as our LW for next year ? I will put my money on Raymond being one of them.

I see Raymond falling out of favour with the coaches and GM. He isn't living up to his previous year or his promise. I can see him being traded as early as October.

LW's who have passed him on the depth chart? Bouma, Ferland, Johnny Hockey...Ferland has potential to be more than a Bollig, so he may just replace him. He may also start scoring, and keep a spot in the top 9, after Bouma comes back.

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I think raymonds play the other night on I want to say on the 3rd goal where he gave away the puck in the offensive zone, and his defensive effort on schiefle was pretty much how hes played all season, just no effort and bad choices.

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Bouma has done real well this yr but what happens when we sign him next yr to a 2-3 yr deal @ 3 something and he does a Jokinen plays great his contract yr gets his pound of flesh and goes back to sleep till his next contract yr. Not saying that will happen but all of a sudden BT is on the hook for a bad signing it is a touchy road to travel Richards did the same thing for LA and that hurts. 

 

Bouma played his heart out last year too. I don't think his play this year is because it's a contract year. He gives it all every day - that's just the kind of man he is.

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I was supportive of the idea of signing a veteran so we weren't pressured into playing a kid that wasn't ready.  So I agree with you that at the time it looked like we needed some depth at the position.  But we didn't need to sign someone to a three year deal IMO.  Even keeping Galiardi would have been preferable.  

 

It was a good idea at the time. Necessary by most expectations of the season.

 

But 1 to 2 years was what was needed. 3 in a rebuild is an issue if he's not going to be a core player which he wasn't going to be.

 

 

Once again we will disagree. Raymond was getting a lot of his points playing on RW in the beginning of the season and after suffering an injury was used all over the place, not specifically on the high ground. Nor do I see him standing in the way of Jooris so not sure where you are even going with that ???

I was responding to robrob, but since you have joined the frey, who do you see as our LW for next year ? I will put my money on Raymond being one of them.

 

Lets see Left Wings, or Centers who may get shifted to Left Wing:

 

Gaudreau, Bouma, Wolf, Ferlund, Jooris, Shore, Granlund (if he doesn't play center) even Bollig (different roll).....

 

Right Wing is where we're a little shy with Hudler, Jones, Colborne being the only predictable ones, but LW (and Center) is well stocked. 

 

 

I see Raymond falling out of favour with the coaches and GM. He isn't living up to his previous year or his promise. I can see him being traded as early as October.

 

 

He tore it up early in the year, like we hoped/wanted. he just hasn't been the same since injury.

 

How he performs early next year compared to others will determine his future both with us and in the league. Right now I'm with you on an early trade for whatever we get.

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I think raymonds play the other night on I want to say on the 3rd goal where he gave away the puck in the offensive zone, and his defensive effort on schiefle was pretty much how hes played all season, just no effort and bad choices.

I don't know if that is entirely fair. I haven't seen Raymond make defensive errors consistently. Plus this is a team that lives and dies on the forecheck and on generating the rush. So speed is really important and Raymond brings that. I don't see him as a player we should have overpaid to get. And he is soft and terribly inconsistent offensively. So I get (and make) the criticism. But I wouldn't paint him as someone that coughs up the puck regularly.

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I haven't seen enough of Brad yet to give him any kind of grade, I want to see him in an impact trade or signing first. He really has yet to do anything that involves our top 6 and has really only brought in depth players. I do appreciate his patience and reluctance to sign long term deals but I am starting to worry he maybe a little trigger shy?

 

With the way this season has gone it will be interesting to see which direction he goes with free agents. Does he continue to look for truculence or add some high skill players to the mix? As of right now I don't really see Brads stamp on the flames and am unclear in how he tends to try and mold them going forward.,

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Well Darth I don't see LW as you do. Gaudreau is a given, Bouma 3rd or 4th line, Ferland 3rd or 4th line, Granlund and Bollig may or may not be here, Jooris more RW, Shore more a C than a winger IMO, Poirier not quite ready and Wolf neds another year. I think we need Raymond for at least another season and on the 2nd line.

 

RW depends on where they decide Colborne best fits and should Bennett make the team next season. Right now we have Hudler, Jones, Colborne, maybe Bennett, Jooris and Poirier plus a few other considerations.

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I think this year is really the honeymoon year for BT. It is too early to really make a evaluation on him. These GM reviews usually go up after their decisions have played out and everyone has 20/20 vision in hindsight. That is one of the reasons I want to start this thread now. 

 

BT has had a good year for the most part because he has been calm and stayed the rebuild course. Short-term contracts, small impact trades but fairly good ones. 

His most significant contribution to this season was probably getting Hillier. Beyond that his moves have not been so much on this season but will play into the future. Hillier gave the Flames NHL level goaltending and the Flames had a decent 1a-1b G rotation. Hillier is not elite but definitely a legitimate NHL starter and beyond that the rest of BT's actions are in the bigger picture pretty low impact for this season.

 

The Brodie contract is definitely a win. The other contracts Raymond / Eng are not good but the negative impact is low long term. 

 

Getting Sam in the draft was a no-brainer. Anyone could have done that.

I think the time to really give a strong debate to his moves is coming in this off-season. His mark will be on the team by the start of next season and we can track his moves right here and discuss in real time. Hindsight is 20/20 and the whole point of this thread is to try and keep BT under the light in real time...

For me, I am fine with him so far... 

 

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I think this year is really the honeymoon year for BT. It is too early to really make a evaluation on him. These GM reviews usually go up after their decisions have played out and everyone has 20/20 vision in hindsight. That is one of the reasons I want to start this thread now. 

 

BT has had a good year for the most part because he has been calm and stayed the rebuild course. Short-term contracts, small impact trades but fairly good ones. 

His most significant contribution to this season was probably getting Hillier. Beyond that his moves have not been so much on this season but will play into the future. Hillier gave the Flames NHL level goaltending and the Flames had a decent 1a-1b G rotation. Hillier is not elite but definitely a legitimate NHL starter and beyond that the rest of BT's actions are in the bigger picture pretty low impact for this season.

 

The Brodie contract is definitely a win. The other contracts Raymond / Eng are not good but the negative impact is low long term. 

 

Getting Sam in the draft was a no-brainer. Anyone could have done that.

I think the time to really give a strong debate to his moves is coming in this off-season. His mark will be on the team by the start of next season and we can track his moves right here and discuss in real time. Hindsight is 20/20 and the whole point of this thread is to try and keep BT under the light in real time...

For me, I am fine with him so far... 

 

 

Agreed that Sam was a no-brainer.  But what he didn't do was trade up to get Sam (or other) at 2nd or 3rd.  He didn't trade up to get Ekblad.  The asking price would have killed us.

 

One of the things he tried to do was get another low pick from Carolina by taking on a bad contract. Didn't work out.

 

The GlenX trade didn't hurt us, and at least we have some futures for him.

 

The Sven trade was bad asset management. Trading when the value is lowest. If you need to up the value of a player, don't sit him in the pressbox or on the farm.

 

I like the way he talks and what he says. He is a good choice for a rebuild. He didn't get too hyped on what he has as a team, nor did he bring in rentals for a playoff push. Some of the later deals at TDL seemed low cost, but who knows what they wanted from the Flames.

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Wait... can we really evaluate him based on some trades he didn't do? I don't think so, since he needs a partner to trade.

 

If you would have the first overall pick how much would you want in a trade to go down to the 4th overall pick?

 

Remember, Feaster offered all first round picks from 2013 for the first overall and Colorado didn't accept. I am very happy with Monahan and I am not sure if MacKinnon is that much better.

 

We don't know if BT tried to move up or if he tried other trades before the trade deadline. We only know what trades have been conducted.

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Wait... can we really evaluate him based on some trades he didn't do? I don't think so, since he needs a partner to trade.

 

If you would have the first overall pick how much would you want in a trade to go down to the 4th overall pick?

 

Remember, Feaster offered all first round picks from 2013 for the first overall and Colorado didn't accept. I am very happy with Monahan and I am not sure if MacKinnon is that much better.

 

We don't know if BT tried to move up or if he tried other trades before the trade deadline. We only know what trades have been conducted.

 

We do know he wanted to take on Cam Ward's salary for their pick.  Widely reported.

 

You are right that we can't evaluate what trades he didn't make, but the fact they weren't means he didn't take asking price. That is good to me.

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I am really curious to see what Treliving does. Will he stay the course? Maybe cash in on some of our overachievers by trading guys like Hudler and Wideman? Or will he fast track the rebuild by trading some of our picks and prospects? Or does he just stay pretty close to status quo by making small moves and letting the youth development bring us to the next level?

All three are defensible strategies. I am really curious to see what the Flames do.

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I am really curious to see what Treliving does. Will he stay the course? Maybe cash in on some of our overachievers by trading guys like Hudler and Wideman? Or will he fast track the rebuild by trading some of our picks and prospects? Or does he just stay pretty close to status quo by making small moves and letting the youth development bring us to the next level?

All three are defensible strategies. I am really curious to see what the Flames do.

I object to the term you are using "overacheivers". Having a career year does not necessarily mean they overachieved.

 

  • Huds is only 31, He is in the prime years of his career.
  • Wideman is similar only 32. DMen mature slower than the forwards and often have longer careers, so could also be considered in the prime of his career.
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I agree with Deeds. I think the way both played this year was far from over-achieving. I consider it meeting their potential. Coaching has a lot to do with this and I think Harley got 100% out of each player.

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While the word overachieving may be a bit strong I think there is certainly good reason to believe this is the peak of both Hudler and Wideman and a season we may not see again. Hudler I would say has a high chance to repeat because he has chemistry with Gaudreau and Monahan but I personally don't consider Hudler a PPG, or very close it, player so in that way you could make the case he overachieved this season but I think his mean or his norm is as a good 2nd line player in the 55-66 point range.

 

The bigger question with Hudler is contract for me and less about whether or not you believed he overachieved or what type of player he is. One year before UFA and heading towards potentially a big pay day. Flames and Treliving have to debate whether or not its going to be worth it to pay Hudler what he could potentially be looking for on the open market. I'm not saying he needs to go, but if he starts asking for over 3 years at an AAV of 5.5 or more I think you have to really consider if that is a smart move for the club. I know he is a good leader and has been great with the kids but I'm not sure locking up a 32 year old Hudler till he is 36 or more at big money is a wise investment for the Flames. That's the debate I'm having internally and based on that decision maybe you move him this offseason if you get the right return.

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I understand what you are saying Cross, however we are still pretty thin on RW and Hudler fills a role. I would rather the Flames sign him to a 3 year deal. You listed his intangibles and that should be enough in itself to justify hanging on to him. The only knock on Hudler is his size and non-physical play and the Flames need to get bigger. Its clear that the Flames need to make some adjustments and that trades will be made, and if Hudler is in that mix, then we'd better get a good return. Nothing less than a first rounder and a high one at that.

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While the word overachieving may be a bit strong I think there is certainly good reason to believe this is the peak of both Hudler and Wideman and a season we may not see again. Hudler I would say has a high chance to repeat because he has chemistry with Gaudreau and Monahan but I personally don't consider Hudler a PPG, or very close it, player so in that way you could make the case he overachieved this season but I think his mean or his norm is as a good 2nd line player in the 55-66 point range.

 

The bigger question with Hudler is contract for me and less about whether or not you believed he overachieved or what type of player he is. One year before UFA and heading towards potentially a big pay day. Flames and Treliving have to debate whether or not its going to be worth it to pay Hudler what he could potentially be looking for on the open market. I'm not saying he needs to go, but if he starts asking for over 3 years at an AAV of 5.5 or more I think you have to really consider if that is a smart move for the club. I know he is a good leader and has been great with the kids but I'm not sure locking up a 32 year old Hudler till he is 36 or more at big money is a wise investment for the Flames. That's the debate I'm having internally and based on that decision maybe you move him this offseason if you get the right return.

 

He has been pretty consistent in putting up points over his tenure with the Flames, so there is no reason to believe he can't put up similar numbers this year.  If it drops off, then you have to ask whether he is worth investing long term.  But you also have to wonder what you are going to get to replace his numbers.  Are you going to have to pay $6m plus in FA, which seems to be a growing trend.

Do you have to add some decent prospects to get a younger version of Hudler?  Again, how much will that cost and will they be the right type of player.

 

As a top 6 player, we have none better yet.  In a year's time, will we have relagated him to the 3rd line?  If so, they he is expendable.

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While the word overachieving may be a bit strong I think there is certainly good reason to believe this is the peak of both Hudler and Wideman and a season we may not see again. Hudler I would say has a high chance to repeat because he has chemistry with Gaudreau and Monahan but I personally don't consider Hudler a PPG, or very close it, player so in that way you could make the case he overachieved this season but I think his mean or his norm is as a good 2nd line player in the 55-66 point range.

 

The bigger question with Hudler is contract for me and less about whether or not you believed he overachieved or what type of player he is. One year before UFA and heading towards potentially a big pay day. Flames and Treliving have to debate whether or not its going to be worth it to pay Hudler what he could potentially be looking for on the open market. I'm not saying he needs to go, but if he starts asking for over 3 years at an AAV of 5.5 or more I think you have to really consider if that is a smart move for the club. I know he is a good leader and has been great with the kids but I'm not sure locking up a 32 year old Hudler till he is 36 or more at big money is a wise investment for the Flames. That's the debate I'm having internally and based on that decision maybe you move him this offseason if you get the right return.

Trouble is Cross only 8 players reached a PtPG - point per game rate this season. If this is how you judge 1st line players you will have to rethink, because all but 6 teams(Dallas/Hawks had 2) are playing with 2nd line players or worse on their top line.

 

As for his contract status he accomplished this season in a non-contract year. In the age of players only performing when they have a contract coming up, this tells me that Hudler has a different motivation than a big contract.

 

Just for the record I have no problems with him as a trading piece but only for an upgrade. From his stats he ended up 8th overall in the league, so which of the 7 above him are we trading for? and how is that player going to save us a little money from Hudlers likely asking price?

5e00fadbb103a6415ddd04a25cc6a6da.png

 

Most of the players on this list are untradable or too high priced.

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I"m not suggesting at all that Hudler will drop off once he is signed. I don't really questions Hudler's motivation to be honest because he proved here when times were not very good that he still showed up motivated and ready to go it is not a questions of motivation. it's a question of what is it going to take to sign him and how smart it is.

 

For example, Mike Cammalleri was coming off a not very impressive year at the age of 32 (just like Hudler will be next year) and he got 5 year 25 million dollar deal. If its going to take a 5 year deal and probably close to 6 (when you consider Hudler's numbers to Cammy's) then I don't think that is smart at all. For me, I'm not even sure its smart to go to 4 years because at 4 years Hudler is probably worth in the 5.5 -6 mill range and at 35/26 years old I really have a hard time seeing Hudler being worth more then 5.

 

Absolutly TD if you can get Hudler for 3 years go for it and I'd even be prepared to give a little extra $ on the AAV to get that done but I think 3 years is the max I'm prepared to give and Hudler and camp may want more and that would be fine if they did. The debate for me has nothing to do with Hudler as a person it comes down to the fit within your cap and how much Hudler is worth. I don't think Hudler is the type of player you keep at all costs is I guess what I'm saying. That is reverserved for your Gios, Monahan, likely Gaudreau at this point, and hopefully Bennett. Hudler you retain at the right price and right contract only and if it exceeds your number you have to look at trading him. Of course you won't trade him for an upgrade, not likely anyway, but you could trade him and fill other holes on the roster.

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Overachievers isn't an insult. It's a compliment.

But Hudler has been a 0.6 PPG player throughout his career. He put up an extra 20 points this season and was at a PPG. When a player sees that much of a jump in their 30s they are overachieving.

Wideman is actually less clear cut because he has come close to putting up these types of numbers. But he still had a career season in points and goals. More then that was his overall play when paired with Russell.

I think both players benefited a lot from their line mates. Hudler had great chemistry with the kids, and Wideman looked poor when separated from Russell. That means their numbers, and their value, is inflated. And both are guys we need to think about extending or trading.

I like both. But you only have a couple of big contracts to hand out. These are guys in their thirties. I think if you give them the big contracts you regret it. And we aren't in a position to lose them for nothing.

The Flames are at a point where they are deciding who to build around. If you are giving a player a term contract at 6m+ then you are building around that player. Giordano is getting a contract. Do we really see Hudler, Giordano, and Wideman as the big money guys we should be building around? I don't.

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Lots of big decisions coming, I think we have to focus not on next year, but the year (and following years) afterwards. This will be the time when our core matures, but still remains slightly less noticeable as they will still be very young.

 

The debate on the Fan960 today was we are the Blackhawks of 5 years ago, they added Marion Hossa, stirred, and cups started landing on their door steps.

 

Honestly, if Bennett can be a Centre for the 2nd line, relegating Backlund to 3rd line (checking only duties) I think Bennett then needs only a power forward with scoring and size for this team to be complete.

 

Our defense wasn't strong enough vs. ANA, but is more comparable with a healthy Gio. Bouma can add grit, but we need it on the top 2 lines. Backlund and Bouma are wonderful, but they are not 2nd line players on a top team. A 30 year old Iginla type player (not many of those floating around) makes this team a lot better in a quick hurry.

 

Finding these fixes won't be easy.

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