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Brad Treliving - GM Tracking & Evaluation

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58 minutes ago, robrob74 said:


its not a norm, but then you look at Sakic with the Duchesne deal and I think they did really well in it. Many thought Sakic was going to be terrible, turns out he was just being patient to get the right deal. So like you said, it’s not the norm and maybe BT wasn’t getting the offers he felt were worth it. In the end, is waiting it out worth it? Will he get what he might have gotten after his 99 point season? 
 

I am with you though, so conflicted with a few thoughts. For me I would have liked to build around Gaudreau with a player that could move with him and help him create space. So for me it was either him, if we couldn’t find someone to compliment him before he (might) bolt to Philly, or Monahan and someone to get him that C that could push the envelope. Who knows, maybe we had it in Bennett but couldn’t ever try it. The consensus around Calgary was always, you could never break up that duo...

 

It isn’t that I want to run him out of town, it’s that I wanted best value for him while he has it, especially IF he is just going to move on at the end of his deal anyway. Like a short term retool to benefit the team in the long run. I think either way, he’s moving on. We won’t know until he does move on. He might stay, but I think the American Fiancé points to moving. Wives and family tend to have a lot of sway.  

Yeah, the Duchene thing drug out almost a year but the difference is the player wanted out, I don't think you can quietly shop Gaudreau for over a year, it'll  become a distraction dragging out to the point the player does want out and others around him want to follow, kinda like how in Ottawa Duchene came in and Turris went out then shortly nobody wanted to be there.  There are still 2 main things that happened that made the Duchene trade great for Colorado 1) Duchene leaving Colorado and they turned around, and arriving in Ottawa changed their fortunes leading to a top 5 pick, not often you go from 1 goal from the finals to bottom of the league.  2) Inclusion of the 3rd team.  Right now the only piece acquired in that trade making an impact is Girard, if Byram doesn't pan out the trade won't be viewed in the same light down the road.  I just don't think our mindset can be on rebuilding through trade, with Colorado their quick turnaround after the Duchene trade was MacKinnon and Rantanen breaking out and adding Makar to the mix.  I get the notion of wanting to make the move at that moment, I just don't know that it would have been very beneficial. 

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3 hours ago, The_People1 said:

 

I'm trying my best to make $10-billion from cryptocurrencies so I can buy the Calgary Flames.

$10 billion? Just forget it then. lol

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2 hours ago, The_People1 said:

 

It's so simple.  Offer Gaudreau an 8-year contract extension this offseason.  All these questions about him wanting to stay or leave, etc, all answered by his actions.

 

If he does the whole, "I don't want to sign after having a bad season, I want to negotiate next summer", then you trade him immediately.  You've got your answer plus we cannot afford to let Johnny walk for nothing next summer.  That would be a fire-able mistake.

 

If he signs, then that stops all rumours about his commitment to the city of Calgary.  Proceed from there.

I agree with this 💯. His contract absolutely needs to be negotiated this off season or he needs to be moved (most likely to Philly). Most elite players and agents are in a race to $100 million for their career. I don’t believe that Johnny is in elite status, however he will be looking for the maximum return for the length of his career.
After next year he will be 28 and an 8 year deal takes him to 36, at his size, he probably can’t play longer than that as we haven’t seen him getting much thicker as he has gotten older.

He will be at $44,125,000 total in his career and I believe can be negotiated at a 8 year deal worth $46M (cap of $5.75) Front Loaded Contract as follows $7M-$7M-$7M-$6.5M-$6.25M-$5M-$4M-$3.2M (as far as I can understand fits in the new CBA). This would give him security, I also think I may offer him a NMC, because I think he does better when there is certainty in his life. 

This is my disclosure.......

 

if he signs this contract, you need to move on from someone, and in my opinion, Mang is the odd man out as he is too similar to Johnny in stature and projection (so a Johnny extension blocks his progression), I also think he has the highest trade value of most on our team. 
My trade proposal would be Mang and our 2021 1st for Konecny and a 2nd in 2022 (as we need more bullets for that draft).

 

If Johnny refuses, I do not think we can offer him a larger cap hit, and therefore need to trade him. 
In a similar thinking, I would trade Johnny and our 2nd in 2021 for Konency and their 2022 1st.

 

 

 

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6 hours ago, sak22 said:

I generally don't agree with that assumption.  What was Joe Thornton's haul?  Or even Gretzky for that matter.  My take is if GM around the league are being offered a 99 point player making less than 7 million a season for 3 more years, the team offering him feels there is something wrong with him so why go overboard with an offer.  Just my take, but I don't know of too many teams getting hauls by trading a player by surprise really exists.

 

I guess it depends on what the definition of a "haul" is but generally I agree with this. Star players almost never generate a haul and are very tricky to trade because the GM who is willing to give you the most for him is likely a contender so he isn't going to want to gut his team to add 1 player. 

 

To get a haul you need to acquire futures. The Duchene deal was a haul for Colorado, which I also highly doubt the Flames would have gotten an offer close to this for Gaudreau, but it's because the futures having turned up in Colorado's favor. Sens bottomed out into Byram, some luck there for Colorado, otherwise I'm sure we'd debate how much of a haul it really was but it was all based around futures. I doubt very much that was an option for the Flames, nor is any GM in the league going to deal their 99 point player for futures after a 100pt season. 

 

Doesn't really hold up as a good example IMO. 

 

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1 hour ago, pikey7883 said:

 I believe can be negotiated at a 8 year deal worth $46M (cap of $5.75) Front Loaded Contract as follows $7M-$7M-$7M-$6.5M-$6.25M-$5M-$4M-$3.2M (as far as I can understand fits in the new CBA). This would give him security, I also think I may offer him a NMC, because I think he does better when there is certainty in his life. 

 

I doubt that gets it done.  With one 99-point season under his belt, I fear it will cost an additional $1-mil-per every year on your proposal.  Plus, inflation and all.

 

I think Gaudreau asks for $8x8-years.

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2 hours ago, pikey7883 said:

I agree with this 💯. His contract absolutely needs to be negotiated this off season or he needs to be moved (most likely to Philly).

 

I agree Philly or NJ will be two teams most willing to give something good to get Gaudreau because of the feeling they can extend Gaudreau long term.  NYR and NYI are also close enough to home that Gaudreau would go there long term.

 

I wonder if a sign and trade could be negotiated between all three parties (Flames + Gaudreau + receiving team).  Basically a team like Philly can ask Gaudreau to sign an 8-year deal with the Flames at a specific cap hit with both Flames and Gaudreau understanding the trade will be a part of the new contract.  And that moves Gaudreau to Philly for 9-seasons.

 

Given that contract control, I think we can ask for something good.

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2 hours ago, pikey7883 said:

 

If Johnny refuses, I do not think we can offer him a larger cap hit, and therefore need to trade him. 

 

If Gaudreau refuses to extend here long term then I wouldn't limit our options to just Philly.  Gaudreau should fetch a late first + medium grade prospect considering he's likely a rental.

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4 minutes ago, The_People1 said:

 

If Gaudreau refuses to extend here long term then I wouldn't limit our options to just Philly.  Gaudreau should fetch a late first + medium grade prospect considering he's likely a rental.

I like NJ a heck of a lot more as a trade partner than Philly.

 

If you’re dealing with the Flyers you have to take on a cap dump. The Devils can make the move without sending the Flames a 7 or 8 mill cap dump and they’ve got a lot of prospects to choose from.

 

I wouldn’t limit the market for Gaudreau. You take the best offer, I just don’t like the Flyers as a fit

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2 hours ago, The_People1 said:

 

I agree Philly or NJ will be two teams most willing to give something good to get Gaudreau because of the feeling they can extend Gaudreau long term.  NYR and NYI are also close enough to home that Gaudreau would go there long term.

 

I wonder if a sign and trade could be negotiated between all three parties (Flames + Gaudreau + receiving team).  Basically a team like Philly can ask Gaudreau to sign an 8-year deal with the Flames at a specific cap hit with both Flames and Gaudreau understanding the trade will be a part of the new contract.  And that moves Gaudreau to Philly for 9-seasons.

 

Given that contract control, I think we can ask for something good.

I like the sales pitch of a sign and trade in the off season, and selling him for 9 years. The only thing I wonder is how many teams want to bank on a 35+ Johnny Hockey?

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2 hours ago, Thebrewcrew said:

I like NJ a heck of a lot more as a trade partner than Philly.

 

If you’re dealing with the Flyers you have to take on a cap dump. The Devils can make the move without sending the Flames a 7 or 8 mill cap dump and they’ve got a lot of prospects to choose from.

 

I wouldn’t limit the market for Gaudreau. You take the best offer, I just don’t like the Flyers as a fit

I will have a look and see if there are some things that make sense from New Jersey? I would never limit options, just trying to follow the smoke.

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17 minutes ago, pikey7883 said:

I will have a look and see if there are some things that make sense from New Jersey? I would never limit options, just trying to follow the smoke.

The Devils had 3 1st's in 2020 and they have 2 in 2021. They've made 19 picks in the past 2 drafts, so they definitely can afford to move prospects.

 

I would almost take it to the bank that the Flames would have selected Dawson Mercer in the 2020 draft if the Devils didn't take him one pick before the Flames were on the clock. I think the Flames would really want him in a Gaudreau trade

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4 hours ago, Thebrewcrew said:

I like NJ a heck of a lot more as a trade partner than Philly.

 

If you’re dealing with the Flyers you have to take on a cap dump. The Devils can make the move without sending the Flames a 7 or 8 mill cap dump and they’ve got a lot of prospects to choose from.

 

I wouldn’t limit the market for Gaudreau. You take the best offer, I just don’t like the Flyers as a fit

 

2 hours ago, Thebrewcrew said:

The Devils had 3 1st's in 2020 and they have 2 in 2021. They've made 19 picks in the past 2 drafts, so they definitely can afford to move prospects.

 

I would almost take it to the bank that the Flames would have selected Dawson Mercer in the 2020 draft if the Devils didn't take him one pick before the Flames were on the clock. I think the Flames would really want him in a Gaudreau trade

 

I would be interested in Tyson Foerster from PHI but of course Dawson Mercer is more interesting.

 

It's hard to gauge where NJ is in their rebuild. They still need a lot of pieces so maybe they take their time rebuilding through the draft.  That said, they could sure use a Gaudreau for either Hischier or Hughes. Neither have offensive weapons to play with.

 

But again, a sign and trade would bring more value in a Gaudreau trade.  If Gaudreau goes UFA after one season, then NJ could possibly give up 7-years of Mercer for 1-year of Gaudreau.  Not a great trade for them.  I don't know if it's been done before but give BT needs to give NJ permission to talk to Gaudreau.

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2 hours ago, pikey7883 said:

I like the sales pitch of a sign and trade in the off season, and selling him for 9 years. The only thing I wonder is how many teams want to bank on a 35+ Johnny Hockey?

 

An 8-year extension could bring down the cap hit.  NJ also struggles to attract UFAs so I can see NJ having no problems with a 36-year old Gaudreau.  This is a chance for NJ to add a hometown boy who can put up 75-points and help Hischier and Hughes develop their offense instead of waiting 2 or 3 years for Mercer to be ready.

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FIRE TREVLING, NOW.   I will even pay for the Fing billboard ad.... It is a sad day to even admit your a Flames fan with these clowns, and Tre leading the circus. 

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2 hours ago, tmac70 said:

FIRE TREVLING, NOW.   I will even pay for the Fing billboard ad.... It is a sad day to even admit your a Flames fan with these clowns, and Tre leading the circus. 

 

People cpmplained that we gave the players a pass by firing the coach.

You want to fire the GM?

How about the players have some pride?

How about they do more than lose an elimination game by being shut out.

 

 

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Some food for thought. This GM assembled a team that also came in 2nd overall in the league a few years ago, and even in that year it was the PLAYERS that took their foot off the gas and got steam-rolled by COL. BT may be heading for the chopping block, but this rests on the players more than anyone else. I'd rather have a less talented player that goes balls-out than a talented player who's effort is half-assed. What we have are many players with character flaws and a poor mindset. 

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45 minutes ago, lou44291 said:

Some food for thought. This GM assembled a team that also came in 2nd overall in the league a few years ago, and even in that year it was the PLAYERS that took their foot off the gas and got steam-rolled by COL. BT may be heading for the chopping block, but this rests on the players more than anyone else. I'd rather have a less talented player that goes balls-out than a talented player who's effort is half-assed. What we have are many players with character flaws and a poor mindset. 

The problem is, as said by many before, theres no "team" mentality. How do you address it without swapping out everybody? Find the right leadership, players that will lead the others into a battle EVERY game, and someone whos not going to give the same old lip service when things dont go right. I'm sure coaching and mgmt have an idea what goes on in the dressing room, so maybe the plans are already in the works to start an attitude shift.

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8 hours ago, travel_dude said:

 

People cpmplained that we gave the players a pass by firing the coach.

You want to fire the GM?

How about the players have some pride?

How about they do more than lose an elimination game by being shut out.

 

 

They all need to be removed. Your players just didnt arrive here with a piss poor attitude,culture and work ethic it was allowed to happen. Whats embarrasing how this orgainization is run, it like average is the pinnacle of succcess. If its the owners micro managing not sure. However, the accountablity starts from the top. This is a Trevling built club period and its beyond terrible with talent and attitude. When your vision and goal os simple just get into the playoffs your gooing to fail. This club for years has and is still light years away from being a contender, simply put we are just as poorly run as Buffalo! If the oweres are the ones dragging this club down than sell it to someone else who has more pride in ownership and larger vision of success. 

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1 hour ago, lou44291 said:

Some food for thought. This GM assembled a team that also came in 2nd overall in the league a few years ago, and even in that year it was the PLAYERS that took their foot off the gas and got steam-rolled by COL. BT may be heading for the chopping block, but this rests on the players more than anyone else. I'd rather have a less talented player that goes balls-out than a talented player who's effort is half-assed. What we have are many players with character flaws and a poor mindset. 

 

12 minutes ago, flames-fan-in-jets-land said:

The problem is, as said by many before, theres no "team" mentality. How do you address it without swapping out everybody? Find the right leadership, players that will lead the others into a battle EVERY game, and someone whos not going to give the same old lip service when things dont go right. I'm sure coaching and mgmt have an idea what goes on in the dressing room, so maybe the plans are already in the works to start an attitude shift.

 

If there are plans to change, it sounds to me like Gio is seen as not being the problem.  Yet, we hear the same thing after every game.  We didn't do this, we didn't generate that, we shot ourselves in the foot.  Whatever.  Even though Gio seems to be invested every game, he's not leading the team.  He does his part, but I think he grates on some players.  Between him and Backlund, leadership has not shown up in the playoffs.  This season is a weird one, but the only year we won a playoff round Gio wasn't even playing.

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4 minutes ago, tmac70 said:

They all need to be removed. Your players just didnt arrive here with a piss poor attitude,culture and work ethic it was allowed to happen. Whats embarrasing how this orgainization is run, it like average is the pinnacle of succcess. If its the owners micro managing not sure. However, the accountablity starts from the top. This is a Trevling built club period and its beyond terrible with talent and attitude. When your vision and goal os simple just get into the playoffs your gooing to fail. This club for years has and is still light years away from being a contender, simply put we are just as poorly run as Buffalo! If the oweres are the ones dragging this club down than sell it to someone else who has more pride in ownership and larger vision of success. 

 

All we hear is the public comments.  What is he going to say?  Oh, we are going to tank to get a draft pick.

The failures in getting certain players in trade speaks to how difficult it is sometimes.

Not giving him a free pass, but players like Stone and Kadri would have moved the needle.

I blame the pro scouting for telling him who else to target.

Nordstrom's metrics screamed a guy to avoid, but we went after him.

Minor signing.

Asking your best RW to become a C because you don't have another good one was a mistake.

We were in on PLD to address it, but we didn't have the right assets.

 

 

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1 hour ago, lou44291 said:

Some food for thought. This GM assembled a team that also came in 2nd overall in the league a few years ago, and even in that year it was the PLAYERS that took their foot off the gas and got steam-rolled by COL. BT may be heading for the chopping block, but this rests on the players more than anyone else. I'd rather have a less talented player that goes balls-out than a talented player who's effort is half-assed. What we have are many players with character flaws and a poor mindset. 

Do not dissagree, But the highlighted is what rest on the GM and scouts as their roles. Your upper management creates the vision, culture, work ethic and direction of the organization. GM and scouts pick the players to ice for team selection, it appears that Tre has extremely poor judgement as he has failed in this department as well as the coaching department. Hamilton, Hamonic, Brower, Lucic, Neal, Elliott, Peters.... All had red flags on them. The Hamiltion one is the best one of all. You get a stud DMan that was being shopped becasue he didnt fit in Boston to not be able to fit in here becasue he was introverted, would have rather cultured himself than get Satoshi Nakamoto canned with the boys. You can not tell me you couldn't discover that, same issue with Brower and Neal crap attitudes. It your role to bring forth the right people to fit the organization, he failed

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After responding to something TD has said in the NHL thread about the NYR management, thinking deeper the team is really starting to feel like the Arizona Coyotes. They've had some good players in the past, much like the Flames, Doan, and others along the years, but failed to build around them. We now have Maloney and BT leading the way here and it is looking eerily similar. Do they have enough vision to push this team forward and improve? Can they add to what they're building now, or are we in a holding pattern? 

 

I think the team is in a holding pattern and there isn't a player that can push them up towards the top. Are they willing to make some tough decisions, or willing to find replacements? I just don't think that 1-for-1 can improve this team enough. Farm members aren't going to do it either!

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9 hours ago, tmac70 said:

Do not dissagree, But the highlighted is what rest on the GM and scouts as their roles. Your upper management creates the vision, culture, work ethic and direction of the organization. GM and scouts pick the players to ice for team selection, it appears that Tre has extremely poor judgement as he has failed in this department as well as the coaching department. Hamilton, Hamonic, Brower, Lucic, Neal, Elliott, Peters.... All had red flags on them. The Hamiltion one is the best one of all. You get a stud DMan that was being shopped becasue he didnt fit in Boston to not be able to fit in here becasue he was introverted, would have rather cultured himself than get Satoshi Nakamoto canned with the boys. You can not tell me you couldn't discover that, same issue with Brower and Neal crap attitudes. It your role to bring forth the right people to fit the organization, he failed

 

10 hours ago, lou44291 said:

Some food for thought. This GM assembled a team that also came in 2nd overall in the league a few years ago, and even in that year it was the PLAYERS that took their foot off the gas and got steam-rolled by COL. BT may be heading for the chopping block, but this rests on the players more than anyone else. I'd rather have a less talented player that goes balls-out than a talented player who's effort is half-assed. What we have are many players with character flaws and a poor mindset. 

 

I don't know if it is that way. Do they actually fold when the going gets tough, or can they actually keep up? God knows they can't get the puck out for the life of them when the pressure gets on. Is that them not willing to play or is that them not able to play? For me, the team was already not playing well at the All-Star Break that year, and maybe even before then. I would say the whole season, because I hated the way they played most games. I couldn't stand how they would sit back or come out flat almost every night. I like a good comeback story, but in the end, it's not a recipe for success. It's good to be a good 3rd period team, but if you're using it to make comebacks it gets tough. You can't play that way in the playoffs. 

 

What I don't get is, why is it a problem that Hamilton would go to an art gallery instead of party with the boys? To me, it looks like the problem is with the other guys in the room when that's the case. Was it actually Hamilton? or was it the Room? Right now, it's beginning to look like the room. I'd like to think there are quiet guys in every room. But I do agree, that the build of the team and the targets are all off. 

 

I like art, I have been good in the dressing room, but then there was one room that talked a lot about doing Coke and partying with their buddies. I didn't fit in with that room at all. They were all Doosh Dads with party lives. 

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10 hours ago, tmac70 said:

They all need to be removed. Your players just didnt arrive here with a piss poor attitude,culture and work ethic it was allowed to happen. Whats embarrasing how this orgainization is run, it like average is the pinnacle of succcess. If its the owners micro managing not sure. However, the accountablity starts from the top. This is a Trevling built club period and its beyond terrible with talent and attitude. When your vision and goal os simple just get into the playoffs your gooing to fail. This club for years has and is still light years away from being a contender, simply put we are just as poorly run as Buffalo! If the oweres are the ones dragging this club down than sell it to someone else who has more pride in ownership and larger vision of success. 

 

Absolutely this.

 

I am Sooo tired of hearing excuses made for our management and ownership.   If they don't have any accountability nobody will have any accountability including the product on the ice and that is Exactly what we see in our drafting, our development, our trades, and our on ice product.

 

I can't wait for this organisation to evolve into something worthy of our city.   It's been there before, it'll get there again.   Starts from the top.

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