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Realistic Trade suggestions for improvement

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3 hours ago, cross16 said:

 

I think we overrate these intangibles and their impact on a team. Lucic has won a cup yes but since 2014 he's been out of the first round once. Edmonton was a mess with him on it and the Flames have gone south since he joined. 

 

I am not suggesting whatsoever any of that is his fault, just think we put WAAAAYYYY to much stock in these "intangibles" like they make much of a difference. 


i dunno, I think the Flames were going south well before that, but that’s subjective and over-analyzed by a lot of us. I think the team has gone south since Peter’s first year even before the Christmas break. They stopped playing then or around the All Star Break

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46 minutes ago, The_People1 said:

 

Kylington doesn't meet the requirement to be exposed because he didn't play 70 games over 2 years and he is not under contract.  Right?  This means the Kraken cannot select Kylington.

 

https://www.nhl.com/news/seattle-kraken-2021-nhl-expansion-draft-rules-same-as-vegas-golden-knights-followed/c-302586918

 * One defenseman who is a) under contract in 2021-22 and b) played in at least 40 NHL games the prior season or played in at least 70 NHL games in the prior two seasons.

 

 

Meet exposure requirements and able to be selected are two different concepts.

He can be selected.

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16 hours ago, robrob74 said:


i dunno, I think the Flames were going south well before that, but that’s subjective and over-analyzed by a lot of us. I think the team has gone south since Peter’s first year even before the Christmas break. They stopped playing then or around the All Star Break

 

Whether I agree or not, like I said that isn't to suggest there is any correlation or causation between Lucic coming here and the Flames going south, I don't think there is. I just think these players how have great "intangibles" get really overrated. I mean we hold Messier up as the best leader of all time without realizing that away from Edmonton his team's weren't exactly powerhouses.  Cup in 94 but before that the Rangers were considered a team that couldn't win the big one and were panned for it. 

 

culture is really fluid and IMO 1 player is never going to impact it. It tends to be a buzz word that comes up when your team isn't good enough. 

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If we trade Tkachuk and Gaudreau this off-season then should we be interested in Calgary boy Taylor Hall?  He will be 30-years-old in November.  He is a #1 overall pick lucky charm as he just helped Buffalo secure the #1 pick overall.  Then, he goes on to have a great second half + playoffs with Boston.  Would he come here on a 1-year deal $6-million?... is that too much or too little?  Should we lock him up long term?

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https://thehockeywriters.com/nhl-rumors-june-11-2021/

 

Friedman Suggests Eichel’s Trade Value is Dropping

 

According to NHL insider Elliotte Friedman, the Buffalo Sabres are absolutely ready to move on from Jack Eichel, but they’ve run into a bit of a problem. Opposing teams that were once interested in the center have either dropped out of the trade conversation or some of the teams are worried that Eichel’s preferred method of recovery from his injury is not something they want to go near.

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25 minutes ago, The_People1 said:

If we trade Tkachuk and Gaudreau this off-season then should we be interested in Calgary boy Taylor Hall?  He will be 30-years-old in November.  He is a #1 overall pick lucky charm as he just helped Buffalo secure the #1 pick overall.  Then, he goes on to have a great second half + playoffs with Boston.  Would he come here on a 1-year deal $6-million?... is that too much or too little?  Should we lock him up long term?

Nope, this team needs to stay away from 30+ players 

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17 minutes ago, The_People1 said:

https://thehockeywriters.com/nhl-rumors-june-11-2021/

 

Friedman Suggests Eichel’s Trade Value is Dropping

 

According to NHL insider Elliotte Friedman, the Buffalo Sabres are absolutely ready to move on from Jack Eichel, but they’ve run into a bit of a problem. Opposing teams that were once interested in the center have either dropped out of the trade conversation or some of the teams are worried that Eichel’s preferred method of recovery from his injury is not something they want to go near.

Good, hopefully Cgy is included in the move on group.

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2 minutes ago, MP5029 said:

Nope, this team needs to stay away from 30+ players 

 

But we can get a #1 overall pick if we sign him...?  Maybe miss the playoffs barely but win the lottery.

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10 minutes ago, The_People1 said:

 

Why?

Eichel has not really proven to be a general...heck even superstar...he’s gonna want and probably cost in trade super star money and assets...nope...hard pass.

 

I’m especially questioning his elite Ctr status, when he couldn’t even manage to dominate with Hall and Reinhart among other really solid players brought in this past year or so...people can say what they want about Monahan...but over all he’s been the better ctr of the two with far less support...say for this year but that’s got a lot to do with his injury and basically a completely messed  up team.

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25 minutes ago, The_People1 said:

 

But we can get a #1 overall pick if we sign him...?  Maybe miss the playoffs barely but win the lottery.

That maybe the only reason to sign him but the question is how many more 1st picks can Hall be traded for...especially if he has a season here like he did in Buf...teams will cool off on him soon and that would be our luck.

 

having said that, Hall on a long term deal last year say 5-6 years of have been ok with probably would have had a completely different season here...speculation at best...in any event, I have cooled off on Hall now...he’s gonna stat to decline and return value on him may not be the best now, had we signed him last season and he started to decline well by the time that contract averaged out say when he’s 35 (assuming he would have signed at a home town deal) I think this past season and 1-2 there after before a notable decline that would make sense.

 

The only way I see a Hall fit now is a 5 year contract with an AAV of no more than 4...preferably 3.5 but that’s completely not possible nor is the 4 mil to be honest but IF he would do that to be in Cgy I’d even be ok with a full NTC/NMC clause at that price for 5 years. But let’s be honest he’s gonna get no less than 6 mil per year 

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On another note...I’d like to revisit the Lucic situation...

 

from what I can tell, starting this year and every year there after for the next 3 years his buyout starts to save some money, not very much at all this year but, the question is at what point would it make sense to pull that pin? 
 

Im betting next year, as it’s the final year for Sutter so that little bit of wiggle room may make sense at that point.

 

I really don’t see it worth while this year, even though I’d much rather play almost any one of our prospects over Lucic and heck maybe their salary matches his buyout savings...but I am very doubtful BT will be able to effect the changes needed to turn this team around enough for a buyout of Lucic to matter much....not this year anyway.

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@MP5029 Just literally saw 5 posts in a row from you I very strongly agree with.

 

That's a new record for me lol.   Well actually the first two in a row broke my record.

 

With regards to the Lucic buyout...yeah....I agree with your final thought.   It likely just won't matter, we'll be so deep in the muck by then, salary cap won't even be a topic for us.

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2 hours ago, MP5029 said:

Eichel has not really proven to be a general...heck even superstar...he’s gonna want and probably cost in trade super star money and assets...nope...hard pass.

 

I’m especially questioning his elite Ctr status, when he couldn’t even manage to dominate with Hall and Reinhart among other really solid players brought in this past year or so...people can say what they want about Monahan...but over all he’s been the better ctr of the two with far less support...say for this year but that’s got a lot to do with his injury and basically a completely messed  up team.

So defend Monahan's poor season as a result of his injury, but criticize another guy who was also playing hurt for not lighting it up.  But I'd still take Johnny Gaudreau and Elias Lindholm over Sam Reinhart and Jeff Skinner, so I don't know if I'd say Eichel has had the better support.  I do think Monahan is better than he is given credit for in these parts, but he is nowhere near Eichel.

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7 hours ago, sak22 said:

So defend Monahan's poor season as a result of his injury, but criticize another guy who was also playing hurt for not lighting it up.  But I'd still take Johnny Gaudreau and Elias Lindholm over Sam Reinhart and Jeff Skinner, so I don't know if I'd say Eichel has had the better support.  I do think Monahan is better than he is given credit for in these parts, but he is nowhere near Eichel.

No it’s the bulk of both players overall PPG career production, Monahan has been the better player. Keeping in mind, Eichel is being touted as a superstar and he’s 23/24 he is or should be hitting superstar production markers but he not and hasn’t...except maybe I think he had one tea good season...Monahan has had many really good seasons and the cost of keeping Monahan is 0 assets and what like 6 mil? Eichel is gonna cost Monahan + what like a 1st rounder and then probably 8+mil? My point here is it seems very foolish to spend that much money and assets on a guy who hasn’t even matched what we currently have...added to that this is like Monahan second major injury and he’s still produced very well over the course of his career...the point with the team support was more of the fact Cgy is all messed up internally, chemistry with basically the same group for the past 5 years just suddenly vanished, which I think has a lot to do with 1. Coaching changes and 2. A few of the new adds, I’m thinking started with the Neil singing, and then with Lucic (maybe) bit a few of these vets are just not great leaders as much as we are being told by the coaching staff...I really think it boils down to the younger group just gave up cause the vets keep getting free passes and are also the loudest about being accountable, yet the vets aren’t being held accountable...that’s a huge demotivating factor that needs to be fixed, that’s part of the “cultural” issues in the locker room.

 

so Monahan and gaudreau are being expected to be leaders but are from what I can only guess based on little things in interviews and their play, are/have been kinda under minded a bit the past few seasons which I think explains the below average play of them and a few others...again just an educated guess, but seems to fit.

 

id much rather keep Monahan, Gaudreau and Chucky over Loosing one of them for Eichel who really has not proven much of anything...other than if buff is now wanting to move him it proves he’s 1. Not or ever gonna be the super start he’s been touted as, and 2. He’s clearly an entitled guy thinking he’s in charge of things in Buf...we have seen this guys kill teams and to be honest we have some of those issue here now...exactly who not sure.

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I'm not a big fan of putting Monahan in the same category as Eichel.

 

The last 3 seasons

Eichel 166 games 66g-112a=178pts 1.07/pts/g

Monahan 198games 66g-92a= 158pts 0.80ts/g

 

That's a #1 C against a #2 C. That sample size includes an 82pt season from Monahan.

 

Both players have a career high of 82 pts in a season.

Eichel's came in the 18/19 season as well. He led the Sabres in scoring by 17pts on a team that went 33-39-10.

Monahan finished 17pts behind Gaudreau for the Flames scoring lead. That team also had Lindholm, Tkachuk and Gio topping 70 pts. Hard to compare the Monahan 82prs to Eichel's IMO if he played on the Flames that year he's putting up 110pts.

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4 hours ago, Thebrewcrew said:

I'm not a big fan of putting Monahan in the same category as Eichel.

 

The last 3 seasons

Eichel 166 games 66g-112a=178pts 1.07/pts/g

Monahan 198games 66g-92a= 158pts 0.80ts/g

 

That's a #1 C against a #2 C. That sample size includes an 82pt season from Monahan.

 

Both players have a career high of 82 pts in a season.

Eichel's came in the 18/19 season as well. He led the Sabres in scoring by 17pts on a team that went 33-39-10.

Monahan finished 17pts behind Gaudreau for the Flames scoring lead. That team also had Lindholm, Tkachuk and Gio topping 70 pts. Hard to compare the Monahan 82prs to Eichel's IMO if he played on the Flames that year he's putting up 110pts.

 

When you include and exclude, you ignore some basic things.

Monahan had a poor season and an okay one.

Both included some struggled by coaching to find good lines.

I wouldn't consider a month or so with Backlund playing the wing to be a good idea.

 

The only thing that makes Monahan not a #1 is that he doesn't drive the play himself.

Then again, most have guys that make them better.

 

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1 hour ago, travel_dude said:

 

When you include and exclude, you ignore some basic things.

Monahan had a poor season and an okay one.

Both included some struggled by coaching to find good lines.

I wouldn't consider a month or so with Backlund playing the wing to be a good idea.

 

The only thing that makes Monahan not a #1 is that he doesn't drive the play himself.

Then again, most have guys that make them better.

 


 

that’s the biggest problem of it all! He doesn’t drive play at all and has two guys who can. Gaudreau and Lindholm (for a bit).  Gaudreau drives the play and Monahan would be maybe a 35-40 point guy without him. Without Gaudreau, Monahan isn’t even a #2C.

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4 hours ago, robrob74 said:


 

that’s the biggest problem of it all! He doesn’t drive play at all and has two guys who can. Gaudreau and Lindholm (for a bit).  Gaudreau drives the play and Monahan would be maybe a 35-40 point guy without him. Without Gaudreau, Monahan isn’t even a #2C.

 

You are right.  He only scored 22 goals as a rookie.

Nowhere in the NHL is that worthy of a 2C.

How quickly people forget that scoring goals isn't alway a perfect pass, it's sniping.

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6 hours ago, travel_dude said:

 

You are right.  He only scored 22 goals as a rookie.

Nowhere in the NHL is that worthy of a 2C.

How quickly people forget that scoring goals isn't alway a perfect pass, it's sniping.


ya, he also played with Hudler a lot in his first two years. He did it all himself. 
 

I don’t forget anything he does or did because I am always reminded of it. Monahan has been a god in these parts for his entire career and whenever someone like me pointed out his downfalls, I’ve been reminded.
 

Teams have figured him out. slash him or stop the pass from Gaudreau and he can’t do anything else. 
 

ok, put him on a line on his own, let’s see him score his 20 goals. That’s a decent career, being a 20 goal guy. Every scorer needs a passer. 
 

Monahan has one of the best releases in the game. But if he’s not scoring he isn’t doing much else. 

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3 hours ago, robrob74 said:


ya, he also played with Hudler a lot in his first two years. He did it all himself. 
 

I don’t forget anything he does or did because I am always reminded of it. Monahan has been a god in these parts for his entire career and whenever someone like me pointed out his downfalls, I’ve been reminded.
 

Teams have figured him out. slash him or stop the pass from Gaudreau and he can’t do anything else. 
 

ok, put him on a line on his own, let’s see him score his 20 goals. That’s a decent career, being a 20 goal guy. Every scorer needs a passer. 
 

Monahan has one of the best releases in the game. But if he’s not scoring he isn’t doing much else. 

Lol well I guess I’m glad your not the GM!

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15 hours ago, travel_dude said:

 

When you include and exclude, you ignore some basic things.

Monahan had a poor season and an okay one.

Both included some struggled by coaching to find good lines.

I wouldn't consider a month or so with Backlund playing the wing to be a good idea.

 

The only thing that makes Monahan not a #1 is that he doesn't drive the play himself.

Then again, most have guys that make them better.

 

Pretty much agree fully, Monahan is not much at driving the play, he dose some

times but not consistently which if he did he’s a #1 Ctr on most teams..heck he’s probably considered a #1 Ctr on a lot of teams even now anyway.

 

Monahan is very under rated and appreciated by Flames fans, my hope is that BT realizes his true worth…I’m not opposed to trading Monahan but it’s gotta  make sense…like a really good prospect and a 1st round pick to start.

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8 hours ago, MP5029 said:

Pretty much agree fully, Monahan is not much at driving the play, he dose some

times but not consistently which if he did he’s a #1 Ctr on most teams..heck he’s probably considered a #1 Ctr on a lot of teams even now anyway.

 

Monahan is very under rated and appreciated by Flames fans, my hope is that BT realizes his true worth…I’m not opposed to trading Monahan but it’s gotta  make sense…like a really good prospect and a 1st round pick to start.


 

I don’t think I’ve under-valued him at all. I just see him for what he is and have been saying that for years. He’s a good face-off guy with an elite shot. He can find openings to get the shot, but pays a price. I think earlier in his career the idea of “playing through it” was noble, but it has come at a cost, his development. Maybe he’d be an even better player had they shut him down early once it was known he was ailing, every time he had an injury instead of playing it out. 
 

maybe it’s why he was more of a liability out there when not scoring. Or looked like he wasn’t doing much this year. 
 

but for me, over the years, I’ve seen this player that if he isn’t scoring, he doesn’t do enough else to make up for it. So if he’s not going to play with Johnny, then what can he do? Is he still going to score 25+ goals without giving up more than that? 
yes he got 20+ goals in a rookie year when no one expected anything from the Flsmes, and in a year he played a lot with and got mentored by Hudler. Hudler was the best Flames player while here and in those few years I would say were  on par with Johnny’s best years. 

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11 hours ago, robrob74 said:


ya, he also played with Hudler a lot in his first two years. He did it all himself. 
 

I don’t forget anything he does or did because I am always reminded of it. Monahan has been a god in these parts for his entire career and whenever someone like me pointed out his downfalls, I’ve been reminded.
 

Teams have figured him out. slash him or stop the pass from Gaudreau and he can’t do anything else. 
 

ok, put him on a line on his own, let’s see him score his 20 goals. That’s a decent career, being a 20 goal guy. Every scorer needs a passer. 
 

Monahan has one of the best releases in the game. But if he’s not scoring he isn’t doing much else. 

 

The point I was making is that we are hard on our own players.

I doubt most here watch more than a quarter of any other teams games.

What do most top line in the NHL have in common?

3 top NHL players, or at minimum 2 and a guy that can finish.

MacKinnon has Rantanen and Landy.

McDavid has Draisaitl.

Tampa has 2 top lines, with the likes of Stamkos and Kucherov to match their top C's.

 

The real secret to stopping Monahan is to injure him early enough.

Or play him like we did Bennett, with crap wingers.

I won't pretend that he is some kinda great 2-way player, but that wasn't the ask.

 

I can get behind a trade to improve the team, but just don't expect any C we get to drive the play somehow by themselves.

 

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Robrob, just to be clear, I am not criticizing your opinion.  You have valid points.

Many here think he is done.

Many here would like to trade him for whatever we can get.

If there's something that improves the team, I am all for it.

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