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Realistic Trade suggestions for improvement

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1 hour ago, The_People1 said:

 

 

No one wants to tank for a top pick.  Okay then, the alternative is trade 4 1st round picks for a #1 Center.

Exactly, but we are not talking about tanking here, what we are saying is giving the deep draft there is a better chance to get a #1 Ctr with those 4 1st rounders than hoping Eichel fully recovers…theses next two drafts are really that deep so, take those 4 picks and do a 2 for 1 trade up if need be…you get a top 5 Ctr out of 2022 or 3 your miles ahead…obviously those other 2 1st are probably from trading Monahan and another player or two but, my money is on the next two drafts…I don’t think Cgy will be in contention this year to draft much further down than this year…we are probably starting top 10…regardless, the point is we are far better off to maneuver in the next two drafts than to bit into Eichel 

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1 hour ago, The_People1 said:

No one wants to tank for a top pick.  Okay then, the alternative is trade 4 1st round picks for a #1 Center.

 

IMHO there will be at least half a dozen #1 centers available in the draft these next few years.  Most far better than those being discussed here.

 

The problem will solve itself.

 

The goaltending and D, is another story, we've already let that ship sale.

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7 minutes ago, cross16 said:

 

Yup and i'm not suggesting there is no risk here. As you say there is in every transaction and of course it's added when there is an injury, nor do I mind if someone say No thanks based on the injury. To each their own. 

 

I think it's hyperbole to suggest things like he may never play again or he will miss a ton of time when there isn't really much to back that up. if the team is comfortable with the risk, and the price reflects the risk appropriately than I would be fine with it. 

 

The more experts and people that speak on this topic the more downplayed the risk becomes so my main point is I think the risk is being spun out of control based on incomplete information. 

No, it’s a high risk, unless we are taking just trading a 1st for him…then sure your out 1 pick, but that’s like 3 1st your throwing away on a wing and a prayer…no sense in that…heck even just a 1st is really 2 as Eichel himself is a 1st…

 

now all that said, and I thing what’s holding things up, is most teams are saying sure ok, but theses are conditional picks and prospects, Buf is trying to get a lot of guaranteed assets, which could ultimately end up in them keeping an injured Eichel that they may be only able to get a second pick for…that could end up the case if they hold on to him until after surgery…anyway they are asking for a Gretzky or Crosby return for a guy that hasn’t produced to Monahan’s level…say what you will, but if he’s really that great he should be able to produce at least Monahan level dispute “lesser” players…which that I don’t agree with either in the likes of Reinhart, Hall and a few others last year…heck even before Hall, he had a decent support cast and didn’t manage much…overrated, over paid and unproven  to date…I’m not seeing Eichel as any sort of an upgrade, it’s actually a few steps back considering what and who needs to go in order to get him…better off drafting and moving guys like Backlund, Gaudreau  and even Monahan to leverage and or stock pile in the next few drafts which have crazy deep and an unusual amount of “generational” types in both drafts…Eichel is 24 and has not produced “generational” numbers…barley star quality numbers to be honest, and everyone is wanting to trade “generational” potential picks and proven star level players for this guy? And then add he’s got a serious injury? Math is just not adding up..definitely not at the asking price 

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17 minutes ago, jjgallow said:

 

IMHO there will be at least half a dozen #1 centers available in the draft these next few years.  Most far better than those being discussed here.

 

The problem will solve itself.

 

The goaltending and D, is another story, we've already let that ship sale.

 

You can probably project 2 guys in the next 2 drafts that will reach franchise level.

Maybe they or the rest of them top out as Reinharts or Monahans.

Wright is probably the closest to an elite player among them, but again, is that McDavid or Bergeron level?

And only available to 1st or 2nd overall.

I would say the odds of a trade for Eichel (and him being an annual 70 point C) are way better than drafting the same level.

That takes into account our draft position, development and fit in the NHL.

 

Look, I get it.  You don't like the team and don't like the picks or trades.

Your ideal team consists of a bunch of teams tanking and picking the exact right players, sometimes two in the same round.

But what is funny is that very few of the perfect picks have ended up on teams that beat the odds and win a cup.

Where is Binnington and Murray today?

How about Barkov and MacKinnon and McDavid?

Stuck on teams that are a bit better off, but can't get over the hump.

 

The smart GM's are the ones that gather assets, trade them for better assets and sign UFA's at the right time.

And give up a boatload of picks at the right time.

And have help from dumb GM's to get LTIR cap space for a song.

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38 minutes ago, MP5029 said:

Exactly, but we are not talking about tanking here, what we are saying is giving the deep draft there is a better chance to get a #1 Ctr with those 4 1st rounders than hoping Eichel fully recovers…theses next two drafts are really that deep so, take those 4 picks and do a 2 for 1 trade up if need be…you get a top 5 Ctr out of 2022 or 3 your miles ahead…obviously those other 2 1st are probably from trading Monahan and another player or two but, my money is on the next two drafts…I don’t think Cgy will be in contention this year to draft much further down than this year…we are probably starting top 10…regardless, the point is we are far better off to maneuver in the next two drafts than to bit into Eichel 

 

Teams go into a rebuild when there is no other choice. 

 

We made the playoffs two out of the last three seasons. We won the conference in one of those. Our core is aged between 22 and 27 and generally attached to reasonable contracts, many with term or control. Only Tanev, Markstrom, and Backlund are key players over 30.

 

Furthermore, we don't have high end NHL ready prospects ready to form the future core of this team. 

 

Let's say the team traded away Tkachuk, Gaudreau, Monahan, etc for futures and buckled in for a rebuild.

 

Which exciting top prospects are you putting in their place to benefit from the minutes and give the fans players to cheer for (aka sell tickets)?

 

What are you doing with our expensive coach that is locked in for 3 seasons (and who is not a development coach)?

 

What happens to our promising young defensive core just entering their prime? Do we just waste they time? Trade then away? 

 

What do we do with the rest of our team, one that will be too bad to be a playoff threat but too good to seriously contend for the top spots of the draft. We can't trade everyone. 

 

There is absolutely no possible way to effectively launch a rebuild at this point. Further, no GM, ownership, coach, or any other positionnof influence in any professional sports league would advocate for a rebuild based on the age, contracts, and competitiveness of the Flames. 

 

I get it as a fan. It's hard to see a pathway to a cup when we have issues at all primary positions. Some would rather just tear off the Band-Aid now and fast track a rebuild rather then be mediocre until the team has no choice. But this is a multi billion dollar industry and most fans aren't reading prospect magazines and message boards, they are attracted to the big names and playoff chances. 

 

The Flames won't rebuild with a young core, not while they remain competitive. So the right move is to try and fill the holes. 

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35 minutes ago, MP5029 said:

No, it’s a high risk, unless we are taking just trading a 1st for him…then sure your out 1 pick, but that’s like 3 1st your throwing away on a wing and a prayer…no sense in that…heck even just a 1st is really 2 as Eichel himself is a 1st…

 

now all that said, and I thing what’s holding things up, is most teams are saying sure ok, but theses are conditional picks and prospects, Buf is trying to get a lot of guaranteed assets, which could ultimately end up in them keeping an injured Eichel that they may be only able to get a second pick for…that could end up the case if they hold on to him until after surgery…anyway they are asking for a Gretzky or Crosby return for a guy that hasn’t produced to Monahan’s level…say what you will, but if he’s really that great he should be able to produce at least Monahan level dispute “lesser” players…which that I don’t agree with either in the likes of Reinhart, Hall and a few others last year…heck even before Hall, he had a decent support cast and didn’t manage much…overrated, over paid and unproven  to date…I’m not seeing Eichel as any sort of an upgrade, it’s actually a few steps back considering what and who needs to go in order to get him…better off drafting and moving guys like Backlund, Gaudreau  and even Monahan to leverage and or stock pile in the next few drafts which have crazy deep and an unusual amount of “generational” types in both drafts…Eichel is 24 and has not produced “generational” numbers…barley star quality numbers to be honest, and everyone is wanting to trade “generational” potential picks and proven star level players for this guy? And then add he’s got a serious injury? Math is just not adding up..definitely not at the asking price 

Eichel 375 GP 139 G 355 Pts.  0.37 Goals/G 0.95 Pts/G

Monahan 591 GP 204 G 439Pts 0.35 Goals/G 0.74 Pts/G

I would definitely agree he hasn't produced to Monahan levels, he has exceeded them.

Some others for comparison

Mackinnon 573 GP 210G 560 Pts 0.37 Goals/G 0.98 Pts/G

Barkov 529 GP 181 G 465Pts 0.34 Goals/G 0.88 Pts/G

 

I would say the numbers align fine for Eichel, the only issue is the GP.  And if people want to make the argument not to target Eichel due to health, I can understand that and get behind that, but your points here are just way too biased.

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2 hours ago, travel_dude said:

 

You can probably project 2 guys in the next 2 drafts that will reach franchise level.

Maybe they or the rest of them top out as Reinharts or Monahans.

Wright is probably the closest to an elite player among them, but again, is that McDavid or Bergeron level?

And only available to 1st or 2nd overall.

I would say the odds of a trade for Eichel (and him being an annual 70 point C) are way better than drafting the same level.

That takes into account our draft position, development and fit in the NHL.

 

Look, I get it.  You don't like the team and don't like the picks or trades.

Your ideal team consists of a bunch of teams tanking and picking the exact right players, sometimes two in the same round.

But what is funny is that very few of the perfect picks have ended up on teams that beat the odds and win a cup.

Where is Binnington and Murray today?

How about Barkov and MacKinnon and McDavid?

Stuck on teams that are a bit better off, but can't get over the hump.

 

The smart GM's are the ones that gather assets, trade them for better assets and sign UFA's at the right time.

And give up a boatload of picks at the right time.

And have help from dumb GM's to get LTIR cap space for a song.

 

Just a quick comment on this, and I think it's an important one, I would say minimum of 3, projected to Exceed franchise level.

 

Wright, Bedard, Michkov.  That we know of now.       Michkov should not be under-estimated or left out of the conversation in the least.   If anyone's left out of that conversation it's Wright and I would personally keep him in without hesitation.   Ok, and admittedly...Michkov's RW, not center, but I have no issues with that.

 

That's 3 somewhere between franchise level and generational.

 

Then you've got your Fantilli's, your Savoie's, your Lamberts (edit).  These are projected franchise level centers.

 

These next two drafts are off the charts, you've got kids in them who are neck and neck with Coronato's current performance but one, two, sometimes almost three years younger.  Someone like Coronato will be available even with  a late first round or early 2nd round pick.     This is where smart teams draft their supply of forwards  for the next 10 years.  And I like Coronato.  This is just how it is.

 

Just like the last couple of drafts was G and D.   Something we won't see again for years, and didn't capitalize on.

 

Hey man, and, nobody is happy with the Flames right now.   anyway.

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2 minutes ago, jjgallow said:

 

Just a quick comment on this, and I think it's an important one, I would say minimum of 3, projected to Exceed franchise level.

 

Wright, Bedard, Michkov.  That we know of now.       Michkov should not be under-estimated or left out of the conversation in the least.   If anyone's left out of that conversation it's Wright and I would personally keep him in without hesitation.   Ok, and admittedly...Michkov's RW, not center, but I have no issues with that.

 

That's 3 somewhere between franchise level and generational.

 

Then you've got your Fantilli's, your Savoie's, your Jack Hughes.  These are projected franchise level centers.

 

These next two drafts are off the charts, you've got kids in them who are neck and neck with Coronato's current performance but one, two, sometimes almost three years younger.  Someone like Coronato will be available even with  a late first round or early 2nd round pick.     This is where smart teams draft their supply of forwards  for the next 10 years.

 

Just like the last couple of drafts was G and D.

 

Hey man, and, nobody is happy with the Flames right now.   anyway.

 

We were talking about C's right?  Not wingers.

And it's easy to project a C into the NHL at age 16 isn't it.

We should be able to draft 2-3 of them in the 1st round next year.

I am quite impressed how many generational and elite franchise players will be available.

The NHL will have a hard time tracking all the goals scored by them.

Poor Lafreniere not even generational anymore.

 

 

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20 minutes ago, travel_dude said:

We were talking about C's right?  Not wingers.

And it's easy to project a C into the NHL at age 16 isn't it.

We should be able to draft 2-3 of them in the 1st round next year.

I am quite impressed how many generational and elite franchise players will be available.

The NHL will have a hard time tracking all the goals scored by them.

Poor Lafreniere not even generational anymore.

 

Correct, all Centers with the possible exception of Michkov who will either play out to be a RW or a C.    His impact is such that if he does go RW and we get him, we can essentially deploy at pylon a C.  It just doesn't matter at that level.

 

You will be impressed, you are correct about that too.  It will rival the 1979, 1991, 1997, and 2005 drafts.   Exceptional drafts are a stastistical certainty over time, they are something smart teams plan for, not look back at in hindsight.

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40 minutes ago, sak22 said:

Eichel 375 GP 139 G 355 Pts.  0.37 Goals/G 0.95 Pts/G

Monahan 591 GP 204 G 439Pts 0.35 Goals/G 0.74 Pts/G

I would definitely agree he hasn't produced to Monahan levels, he has exceeded them.

Some others for comparison

Mackinnon 573 GP 210G 560 Pts 0.37 Goals/G 0.98 Pts/G

Barkov 529 GP 181 G 465Pts 0.34 Goals/G 0.88 Pts/G

 

I would say the numbers align fine for Eichel, the only issue is the GP.  And if people want to make the argument not to target Eichel due to health, I can understand that and get behind that, but your points here are just way too biased.

 

Agreed.  The number comparisons are even better when you look at the last 2 seasons where Eichel is above a PPG player and Monahan has dropped to 0.63 PPG.  (Monahan has really fallen off a cliff offensively the last 2 seasons, and in some ways I think he is a bigger injury risk then Eichel despite game played.)  In fact, if you exclude Eichel's rookie season, he is top 10 in PPG among centres (since 2016/17).  Monahan is 26th in that time frame.  

image.png.540bc13bb826b32b3f877b7599c5f50d.png

 

It goes beyond points though.  Eichel drives his line (with some pretty meh line mates over the years).  Gaudreau drives the Monahan line.  For me, which of those two players would I be comfortable putting head to head with McDavid, MacKinnon, Crosby, etc.  Even when Monahan is scoring, he gets slaughtered when he is going head to head against the best, and you don't want that in your top C.  

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2 hours ago, cross16 said:

 

Yup.

 

I have no problem if the Flames wanted to target the next 2 drafts and rebuild but if they were going to do that that process needed to start already. It hasn't, it likely won't and IMO I see almost no chance the Flames team as constructed being bad enough to win either of the next 2 lotteries. 

 

They are not going to get a player the caliber of Eichel unless they trade for Eichel, IMO. 

 

That or clear cap space and try to sign Barkov next summer by offering him $12-mil-per.  I doubt FLA even lets Barkov get to UFA.

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43 minutes ago, sak22 said:

Eichel 375 GP 139 G 355 Pts.  0.37 Goals/G 0.95 Pts/G

Monahan 591 GP 204 G 439Pts 0.35 Goals/G 0.74 Pts/G

I would definitely agree he hasn't produced to Monahan levels, he has exceeded them.

Some others for comparison

Mackinnon 573 GP 210G 560 Pts 0.37 Goals/G 0.98 Pts/G

Barkov 529 GP 181 G 465Pts 0.34 Goals/G 0.88 Pts/G

 

I would say the numbers align fine for Eichel, the only issue is the GP.  And if people want to make the argument not to target Eichel due to health, I can understand that and get behind that, but your points here are just way too biased.

 

You can't cherry pick a couple stats and think your point is proven.

Look at shots on net, shot percentage, and time on ice.

Eichel has had 2 elite seasons. The rest Monahan out played him. Look at the shot percentage and shots on net, sure with more shots the percentage goes down but do the math. IF Monahan took as many shots as Eichel he would look like the player we should be after not Eichel.

If we are going to base the value of a trade on just the players stats here is the answer. Tell Monahan to shot more and there is our elite goal scorer at center. Lindy will do the hard work and without even losing one asset we get better. 

I do not see how Eichel is seen as such a needle mover. I would rather stay loyal to a guy that has played for you with no serious injury history and is actually in the same class as Eichel instead of just saying Eichel will be the piece we need. There is just as much chance of Monahan putting 5-10 more goals in the net than Eichel if they shot the same amount on net. 

I come back to it again. Just because I believe something or you believe something does not make either of us right. Just try to think, has Eichel actually proven his Elite status or is some of it still just what if's and maybes. He has a serious injury and has what someone on here has stated as being a 19 % chance of not healing fully. 

My opinion is just tell Mony to shot more.

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19 minutes ago, travel_dude said:

We were talking about C's right?  Not wingers.

And it's easy to project a C into the NHL at age 16 isn't it.

We should be able to draft 2-3 of them in the 1st round next year.

I am quite impressed how many generational and elite franchise players will be available.

The NHL will have a hard time tracking all the goals scored by them.

Poor Lafreniere not even generational anymore.

 

Outside of a crazy draft year (i.e. 2003), your lucky to see even a single elite C in a draft.  Even if you get a top 3 pick its far from a guarantee.  Is Hughes, Hischier, Patrick, and Kotkaniemi going to get there?  If you look at the draft since 2015 there are only a few that have materialized as an elite C.  McDavid,  Matthews,  and Eichel are the only clear guys on that list.  Maybe you throw on Petterrson, Barzal, Aho, or a few others, but I think the jury is out on them.    

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https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cHM6Ly9wb2RjYXN0LnNwb3J0c25ldC5jYS9zaG93cy8zMS10aG91Z2h0cy9mZWVkL3BvZGNhc3Qv/episode/aHR0cHM6Ly9wb2RjYXN0LnNwb3J0c25ldC5jYS8_cD0zMjg4Ng?hl=en-CA&ved=2ahUKEwiP3IKP_pXyAhXAgP0HHVwuA7UQieUEegQIBRAI&ep=6

 

A good overview of Eichel's situation. It is biased in Eichel's favour, as this is the doctor who would be performing the artificial disc replacement on him.

 

Certainly worth a listen, if anyone is interested.

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1 hour ago, Thebrewcrew said:

https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cHM6Ly9wb2RjYXN0LnNwb3J0c25ldC5jYS9zaG93cy8zMS10aG91Z2h0cy9mZWVkL3BvZGNhc3Qv/episode/aHR0cHM6Ly9wb2RjYXN0LnNwb3J0c25ldC5jYS8_cD0zMjg4Ng?hl=en-CA&ved=2ahUKEwiP3IKP_pXyAhXAgP0HHVwuA7UQieUEegQIBRAI&ep=6

 

A good overview of Eichel's situation. It is biased in Eichel's favour, as this is the doctor who would be performing the artificial disc replacement on him.

 

Certainly worth a listen, if anyone is interested.

 

So, for lumbar disc replacements, the success rate is around 70%, defined as post-surgery improvement.   Probably around 50% of returning to "normal".  20% chance of complications, 10% chance of serious complications (for instance requiring a second surgery).

 

Disc replacements this high up?   I can't find the data, I'm not sure if it is there.    I would assume that Eichel would get the very best odds available right now, however this has to be a more intricate and delicate surgery than lumbar with a LOT more nerve endings involved, etc.

 

You can see why with those numbers, there is debate and tension.    IMHO though, it should still be up to the patient, I really don't understand the power the team has over how the damage is repaired.

 

Personally, this is all a bit boring compared to what's in the next two drafts.

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Top line centres, rarely become available, let alone ones that are realistic for the Flames to acquire. On the free agent market, a John Tavares type, isn't choosing Calgary. On the trade market, 7 of the top 10 highest paid centres have a No Move. Again, not likely to waive for Calgary. Injury or not, Eichel comes with a significant amount of term and most importantly (aside from the injury), he doesn't have his NMC yet, he can't dictate his destination.

 

I know my livelihood isn't at stake like the Flames hockey ops, but I'd make an Eichel trade in a second, even if he's going to miss 35 games in 21/22. You still get him for 4.5 seasons if he misses half a season. This is a franchise player that would drastically change the dynamic of the roster.

 

Right now, the Flames aren't good enough, even with the additions they've made. The defence is weaker and it's fair to question if the offence will be able to score enough. As of now, the Flames are anywhere between the 3rd and 6th place team in the Pacific.

 

Since the Flames aren't rebuilding, they may as well be bold and do something massive like an Eichel deal. Besides, how fun would McDavid v Eichel be?

 

The most likely scenario is one where the Flames don't land Eichel and I see a team that will be picking in the 12-18th range for the 2022 draft. Bubble playoff team that would get 5 games against Vegas or Colorado.

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I really think BUF will deal Eichel to a Western conference team.

 

I've done an overview of the Western teams before, but with UFA calming down I'll do one again.

 

DAL, EDM, CHI, VGK are over the cap

- VGK is known to be in on Eichel, but it needs to be dollar in, dollar out. They would have to do significant roster surgery to get it done. They can LTIR Tuch, but he will be back before the end of the regular season.

 

COL, LA, STL all have 3.5 or less in cap space.

- LA signed Danault, I'd imagine that takes them out of the Eichel sweepstakes

 

SJ, WPG, ARI have 9 or less in cap space. I don't think either of the 3 will be in on Eichel.

Jets and Sharks rebuilding. WPG did the PLD deal in January

 

CGY, VAN, SEA are in the next tier of cap space. VAN will use all of their remaining space on Pettersson/Hughes. I doubt SEA has the assets to do it

 

ANA, MIN, NSH round out the West. Preds already have 16mill in Duchene/Johansen. 

- I don't see it making sense for Anaheim. They clearly wouldn't do Zegras, Drysdale or McTavish. Buffalo will want the 2022 1st. Even if Anaheim lotto protects it, it's a top 10 pick. Doesn't make sense to me.

- With MIN, it's well-known they covet Eichel. Really tough to see how the Wild make it work though, they are hit with an extra 8mill in dead cap next year though. 

 

I've said it before, the Flames have a real shot at this and again, I don't think Buffalo will be sending him to an Eastern team

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6 hours ago, FlameFan4Life said:

 

You can't cherry pick a couple stats and think your point is proven.

Look at shots on net, shot percentage, and time on ice.

Eichel has had 2 elite seasons. The rest Monahan out played him. Look at the shot percentage and shots on net, sure with more shots the percentage goes down but do the math. IF Monahan took as many shots as Eichel he would look like the player we should be after not Eichel.

If we are going to base the value of a trade on just the players stats here is the answer. Tell Monahan to shot more and there is our elite goal scorer at center. Lindy will do the hard work and without even losing one asset we get better. 

I do not see how Eichel is seen as such a needle mover. I would rather stay loyal to a guy that has played for you with no serious injury history and is actually in the same class as Eichel instead of just saying Eichel will be the piece we need. There is just as much chance of Monahan putting 5-10 more goals in the net than Eichel if they shot the same amount on net. 

I come back to it again. Just because I believe something or you believe something does not make either of us right. Just try to think, has Eichel actually proven his Elite status or is some of it still just what if's and maybes. He has a serious injury and has what someone on here has stated as being a 19 % chance of not healing fully. 

My opinion is just tell Mony to shot more.

I'd rather have the guy who is getting more shots on net.  Eichel averages 3.5 shots per game, Monahan averages 2.37.  Monahan does have the better shooting% at 14.5 to 10.5, but if you average 3.5 shots per game and shoot 10.5% its 30 goals, average 2.37 per game at 14.5% and its 28 goals, but thats not really that relevant, its not a case of Monahan just needs to shoot more, the difference is Eichel creates a lot of his on his own where as Monahan has relied on others.  I have more belief that Eichel can maintain his 3.5 than Monahan above the 2.5 mark.  

 

2 Hernia surgeries, 2 wrist surgeries, groin surgery and now hip surgery I wouldn't say his injury history should be taken lightly either.

 

I'm not trying to trash Monahan, by pointing out that he doesn't belong in the conversation with guys who are elite talents doesn't mean I think less of him.  If we got Eichel and kept Monahan I'd still be very happy

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11 hours ago, Thebrewcrew said:

Since the Flames aren't rebuilding, they may as well be bold and do something massive like an Eichel deal. Besides, how fun would McDavid v Eichel be?

 

I know there's a popular opinion in here right now that the Flames "just don't rebuild" (even though we've gone through two of them in the last two decades which apparently don't count).    Eichel, while I disagree on feasibility and impact, I get the excitement for.

 

But something we should keep in mind

 

If you're picking 12th overall

 

And you actually get worse (and we have)

 

And you lack a pipeline (that's us)

 

You're rebuilding.

 

lol. 

 

I'm totally cool with waiting for the official announcement about it in 2023.  But it's semantics at this point.

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16 hours ago, kehatch said:

 

Teams go into a rebuild when there is no other choice. 

 

We made the playoffs two out of the last three seasons. We won the conference in one of those. Our core is aged between 22 and 27 and generally attached to reasonable contracts, many with term or control. Only Tanev, Markstrom, and Backlund are key players over 30.

 

Furthermore, we don't have high end NHL ready prospects ready to form the future core of this team. 

 

Let's say the team traded away Tkachuk, Gaudreau, Monahan, etc for futures and buckled in for a rebuild.

 

Which exciting top prospects are you putting in their place to benefit from the minutes and give the fans players to cheer for (aka sell tickets)?

 

What are you doing with our expensive coach that is locked in for 3 seasons (and who is not a development coach)?

 

What happens to our promising young defensive core just entering their prime? Do we just waste they time? Trade then away? 

 

What do we do with the rest of our team, one that will be too bad to be a playoff threat but too good to seriously contend for the top spots of the draft. We can't trade everyone. 

 

There is absolutely no possible way to effectively launch a rebuild at this point. Further, no GM, ownership, coach, or any other positionnof influence in any professional sports league would advocate for a rebuild based on the age, contracts, and competitiveness of the Flames. 

 

I get it as a fan. It's hard to see a pathway to a cup when we have issues at all primary positions. Some would rather just tear off the Band-Aid now and fast track a rebuild rather then be mediocre until the team has no choice. But this is a multi billion dollar industry and most fans aren't reading prospect magazines and message boards, they are attracted to the big names and playoff chances. 

 

The Flames won't rebuild with a young core, not while they remain competitive. So the right move is to try and fill the holes. 

Oh this is exactly what I’m saying, but Eichel would be the exact opposite of that, cause it’s gonna cost one of the core, prospect and a high 1st…

 

filling holes would be another RS RD and at least one top line RS RW and another bottom 6 Ctr and RW…some of theses can be filled internally by prospects IF they are ready 

 

 

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29 minutes ago, MP5029 said:

Oh this is exactly what I’m saying, but Eichel would be the exact opposite of that, cause it’s gonna cost one of the core, prospect and a high 1st…

 

filling holes would be another RS RD and at least one top line RS RW and another bottom 6 Ctr and RW…some of theses can be filled internally by prospects IF they are ready 

 

Exactly this.   Nothing good has ever come of winning a sweepstake like this, especially for a  player with health risks.   Eichel would fit what is our fifth highest need (a top center) behind goaltending, a top RHSD, a top LHSD, and a top RW.   Having a center with those pieces in place means you have a shot at the cup.    Having a center without those pieces means you have a shot at Connor Bedard.

 

I really couldn't care either way, you have to give to take so it's simply not going to make a massive difference for the team.    Unless...they shed more first round picks.    In that case, this is going to be a REALLY long rebuild.  Luckily, our chances have to be near zero.   I wish they'd get the trade done already so we could talk about something more realistic like the topic suggests.

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54 minutes ago, MP5029 said:

Oh this is exactly what I’m saying, but Eichel would be the exact opposite of that, cause it’s gonna cost one of the core, prospect and a high 1st…

 

filling holes would be another RS RD and at least one top line RS RW and another bottom 6 Ctr and RW…some of theses can be filled internally by prospects IF they are ready 

 

 

Unless it involves a trade of Gaudreau or Tkachuk, no to chasing another RW.  With Gaudreau, Mangipane, and Tkachuk all due raises next season we have too much of our cap allocated to the wing already.  That is also the position of most of our best prospects.  We have already burned enough of our cap and assets trying to solve that position based on the false presumption that is the missing ingredient to our top line.  

 

Otherwise, it really depends on what the Flames want to accomplish.  If we are interested in making the playoffs, maybe winning a round, while we quietly rebuild in the background (aka spend no picks/prospects) then filling a few holes makes sense.  The problem with this approach is its a recipe for perpetual mediocrity.  Your never bad enough to get the high picks (or the traction to get ownership to buy in on a full rebuild), and your never good enough to win a cup.  

 

The Flames are in their prime.  We are never going to be in a better position with the current core.  Meanwhile, we just got 7-million in cap space due to the draft lottery and one of the elite Cs has become available (something that almost never happens).  This C is 24 years old supporting us now and in the future, and he would instantly become the best player on the Flames roster at the most important position. 

 

Its time to push those chips in and try to graduate from a playoff threat to a cup threat.

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16 minutes ago, jjgallow said:

 

Exactly this.   Nothing good has ever come of winning a sweepstake like this, especially for a  player with health risks.   Eichel would fit what is our fifth highest need (a top center) behind goaltending, a top RHSD, a top LHSD, and a top RW.   Having a center with those pieces in place means you have a shot at the cup.    Having a center without those pieces means you have a shot at Connor Bedard.

 

I really couldn't care either way, you have to give to take so it's simply not going to make a massive difference for the team.    Unless...they shed more first round picks.    In that case, this is going to be a REALLY long rebuild.  Luckily, our chances have to be near zero.   I wish they'd get the trade done already so we could talk about something more realistic like the topic suggests.

 

None of the following goalies have ever put us in contention for 1st overall; Elliott, Joey, Smith, Rittich, Talbot, or Markstrom.

So, we are 5 years away from a possible rebuild, unless they trade away all younger players from the top 2 lines.

That rebuild assumes that non of the current prospects take any steps forward to make the NHL and the current top players have career worst seasons.

 

BTW, the thread is Realistic...for improvement....Trading to become a tank team or set up the rebuild doesn't make a lot of sense.    

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3 minutes ago, kehatch said:

 

Unless it involves a trade of Gaudreau or Tkachuk, no to chasing another RW.  With Gaudreau, Mangipane, and Tkachuk all due raises next season we have too much of our cap allocated to the wing already.  That is also the position of most of our best prospects.  We have already burned enough of our cap and assets trying to solve that position based on the false presumption that is the missing ingredient to our top line.  

 

Otherwise, it really depends on what the Flames want to accomplish.  If we are interested in making the playoffs, maybe winning a round, while we quietly rebuild in the background (aka spend no picks/prospects) then filling a few holes makes sense.  The problem with this approach is its a recipe for perpetual mediocrity.  Your never bad enough to get the high picks (or the traction to get ownership to buy in on a full rebuild), and your never good enough to win a cup.  

 

The Flames are in their prime.  We are never going to be in a better position with the current core.  Meanwhile, we just got 7-million in cap space due to the draft lottery and one of the elite Cs has become available (something that almost never happens).  This C is 24 years old supporting us now and in the future, and he would instantly become the best player on the Flames roster at the most important position. 

 

Its time to push those chips in and try to graduate from a playoff threat to a cup threat.

 

Cost and impact to the current team is my only concern.  I have no issues dealing a 1st.  I have no issue swapping a lesser C for a top C.  I have no issue trading some futures.  I have no issue using Tkachuk in the deal, as we have had to shunt him to RW to play top 3.  I would miss the player and he is the right type of player for playoffs, even if he hasn't yet been a factor for us.

 

Sutter pointed out that we lack star power, so we have to be perfect to win.  That's not real.  We have a chance to grab a top player in the NHL.  Let's not get hung up on the loss of one player or a 1st rounder.  

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6 minutes ago, travel_dude said:

 

None of the following goalies have ever put us in contention for 1st overall; Elliott, Joey, Smith, Rittich, Talbot, or Markstrom.

So, we are 5 years away from a possible rebuild, unless they trade away all younger players from the top 2 lines.

That rebuild assumes that non of the current prospects take any steps forward to make the NHL and the current top players have career worst seasons.

 

BTW, the thread is Realistic...for improvement....Trading to become a tank team or set up the rebuild doesn't make a lot of sense.    

 

Then stop proposing those trades.

 

Most of the trades proposed in here and most advocated by you, knowingly make us worse in the future.   The Flames made similar trades.  Now the future is here.    Every time a trade is proposed that sacrifices our future, this is a proposal to become a tank team.   It makes us worse, and gives us some immediate lipstick.

 

Responsible asset management that considers our future is not something to be ashamed of, nor does it make us a "tank team".    The short term benefit trades "let's put in all the chips" are the exact trades that got us here.   And you know that.   You say you don't like losing but I'm never certain if you mean that past this moment.   I don't want to be losing in 2025.   You're pretty much planning for it.

 

Here's the problem.  People "didn't want to lose" for the past 5 years already, and there's nothing left in the tank.   It's your 2025 right now, because of decisions we already made.

 

I'm not sure why you just listed off 6 of the worst goaltending decisions we ever made, consecutively, literally all of which consisted of renting washed up has beens with the exception of Rittich, who never was, and was too old to develop into one.    That is exactly my point.   If we cared from the net out like people here do about C, we might be in a very different place right now.  Nobody here is advocating picking up a 30+ year old C who had good numbers when they were 28.

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