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Jessemadnote39

Realistic Trade suggestions for improvement

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I've got a wowser suggestion that could work. A lot of you won't like it. :o

 

To NJ:

RFA rights to Gaudreau

Wideman

1 of Stajan or Backlund

 

To Flames:

Taylor Hall

A 2nd round pick in 2017 or a  good prospect like Santini

Cap space

 

The Debbies need scoring & Gaudreau provides just a tad more than Hall while either Stajan or Backlund adds more. Their defense is weak (strange to say about the team that used to be a D-man factory) so Wideman helps. With over $14 million  in cap space & only 45 roster spots taken they improve & fill their roster with an additional outlay of 8-10 million (depending on Gaudreau's contract).

 

For Calgary Hall isn't much of a step down from Gaudreau (& our coaches/management/trainers should be able to light a fire under his butt bringing him back to what he was in junior). A 2nd rounder or good prospect is always handy while the cap space can be used to fill holes.

 

Flame away. :)

 

Larson and a 2nd for JHG, Wideman and Backlund?  The Devils would look like bandits with that deal.

 

Wideman will fetch us a 2nd before the season is done.  Backlund for Larson straight up might have been a good swap.  So we are tossing in little Johnny why again?

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OK guys that Gaudreau + salary dumps for Hall + an asset occurred to me after seeing posts mentioning Gaudreau talking about playing closer to home (born in NJ & played @ BU) while talking advantage of bigger promotional $s available close to "The Big Apple". I was bored & decided to come up with a feasible scenario.

I asked for reactions & got about what I expected. :)

All these "WTF, you want to trade our best player" comments remind me that any mention of trading Baertschi 3-4 years ago were met with "we can't do that, he's our best prospect & highest pick in ages". :rolleyes:


He's a comparable player to Bouma, except RHS RW.  He ended last season strong with the Devils and showed his scoring touch but i agree it's doubtful he keeps up that kind of offensive production.  It's not the offense though.  He's a solid crash and bang player and will prove valuable in a depth role.  The definition of truculence.  Paid fairly at $1.3-mil-per for two years.

 

What can we expect from Wideman, right?

 

Best case is we go into the season with Wideman for insurance against injury and that he may make for a great TDL asset.  

I'd rather ask for Santini over DSP. He has the makings of a good defensive D & should be ripe about the time we need him.

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Larson and a 2nd for JHG, Wideman and Backlund?  The Devils would look like bandits with that deal.

 

Wideman will fetch us a 2nd before the season is done.  Backlund for Larson straight up might have been a good swap.  So we are tossing in little Johnny why again?

Stajan or Backlund.

I'm not as in love with Backlund as some & really think Bennett will take the 2C position this year making Backlund @ 3.575 a rather expensive 3C.

BTW, you wouldn't have got Larsson for Backlund. Apparently Edmonton offered RNH but were told no they were fine with Zajac & Henrique barring a bigger upgrade. Backlund isn't that. :rolleyes:

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OK guys that Gaudreau + salary dumps for Hall + an asset occurred to me after seeing posts mentioning Gaudreau talking about playing closer to home (born in NJ & played @ BU) while talking advantage of bigger promotional $s available close to "The Big Apple". I was bored & decided to come up with a feasible scenario.

I asked for reactions & got about what I expected. :)

All these "WTF, you want to trade our best player" comments remind me that any mention of trading Baertschi 3-4 years ago were met with "we can't do that, he's our best prospect & highest pick in ages". :rolleyes:

Pretty sure Baertschi hadn't just put up 78 points in his second full season. Also, it isn't so much "you want to trade our best player" as "you want to trade our best player for THAT"

Stajan or Backlund.

I'm not as in love with Backlund as some & really think Bennett will take the 2C position this year making Backlund @ 3.575 a rather expensive 3C.

BTW, you wouldn't have got Larsson for Backlund. Apparently Edmonton offered RNH but were told no they were fine with Zajac & Henrique barring a bigger upgrade. Backlund isn't that. :rolleyes:

How much you love or hate Backlund isn't relevant. He isn't a throw away and he shouldn't be in the statement "Stajan or Backlund". He is coming off of a 47 point season, is young, on a steal of a deal, and he plays a strong defensive game. Giving up Gaudreau and Backlund for Hall and a single season of cap space is a terrible terrible deal. You end up worse short term and ling term and we could do so much better if we were trading those players (which we shouldn't.)

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Stajan or Backlund.

I'm not as in love with Backlund as some & really think Bennett will take the 2C position this year making Backlund @ 3.575 a rather expensive 3C.

BTW, you wouldn't have got Larsson for Backlund. Apparently Edmonton offered RNH but were told no they were fine with Zajac & Henrique barring a bigger upgrade. Backlund isn't that. :rolleyes:

I am not in love with Backlund as some are either. I have stated several times that NHL statistics are not very valid or reliable because they fail to generate basic descriptives on play unlike many other sports, so data on him are not very convincing. Any arguments about his statistics are basically meaningless to me. He is a talented player who has simply not realized his full potential on our team for whatever reason. So, I believe that he is an ideal candidate for trading purposes. Bennett will be #2C this year, but I suspect that he may well compete for the #1C position in the future. I say this as a big time Monahan fan. I believe that they are comparable players in terms of quality and importance, just very different in terms of how they play.

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I find it very odd when I hear people argue "Backlund has not realized his full potential". Thats a very old narrative IMO and should be dropped immediatly. Whether you like Backlund or not i'm fine with but even objectively how do you argue that Backlund isn't at least a very good 3rd line center, if not a decent number 2?

 

If you get a player like that at the back end of the 1st round you've done very well. If people were expecting more than that our of Backlund i would argue its your expectations that are out of line, not Backlund's play. 

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I find it very odd when I hear people argue "Backlund has not realized his full potential". Thats a very old narrative IMO and should be dropped immediatly. Whether you like Backlund or not i'm fine with but even objectively how do you argue that Backlund isn't at least a very good 3rd line center, if not a decent number 2?

 

If you get a player like that at the back end of the 1st round you've done very well. If people were expecting more than that our of Backlund i would argue its your expectations that are out of line, not Backlund's play. 

I agree. Backlund maybe came in with to much fanfare about providing a bunch of offense which a lot of young prospects do. He didn't have an overall game good enough for the NHL and Sutter put him through his paces to learn how to be a responsible player around the ice. I would say injuries have stopped us from seeing the true talents of Backlund until these past two seasons. Right now he provides us with an answer against the opposition's top lines while allowing the young core to grow and mature, mainly Bennett. It has taken awhile for him to emerge but he is a valuable piece right now. Stajan not so much, holding a spot for Jankowski to slide into in 2017/18.

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Backlund definitely had unfair expectations on him. Other than Brodie he was the best draft pick from the Sutter era. He's a responsible 2 way center men ...he'd be a valuable asset on any team. He's not flashy and doesn't pot 20+ goals every season but he does a lot of the small things right. I'd recommend anyone to watch the final BOA game at Rexall. Backs dominated in that game, he's starting to really covet his role and now we're seeing some of that potential for production is starting to show

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If even you think Gaudreau is better than Hall then why would you state that JH & Wideman might get Hall?  Seems confusing.  To me JH is significantly better than Hall and it would be Hall ++ to get Gaudreau.

John Scott's a FA looking for league minimum.  Might be a good pick-up for AHL/call-up if needed.

Most everyone on these boards wants to get rid of Wideman. Some think he has regressed, some don't want the wrath of the refs to come down on the team, but for whatever reasons they want him gone. I was not stating JH was better or worse than Hall. I was giving FF my take on his suggested trade. I saw no need to include Backs in it or the 2nd round pick. 

 

What would you give up to rid the Flames of Wideman? Just the cleared cap space alone would be worth him gone.

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OK guys that Gaudreau + salary dumps for Hall + an asset occurred to me after seeing posts mentioning Gaudreau talking about playing closer to home (born in NJ & played @ BU) while talking advantage of bigger promotional $s available close to "The Big Apple". I was bored & decided to come up with a feasible scenario.

I asked for reactions & got about what I expected. :)

All these "WTF, you want to trade our best player" comments remind me that any mention of trading Baertschi 3-4 years ago were met with "we can't do that, he's our best prospect & highest pick in ages". :rolleyes:

I'd rather ask for Santini over DSP. He has the makings of a good defensive D & should be ripe about the time we need him.

 

DSP is a much more realistic get than Santini who has a lot of upside in the next few years.  It's only Wideman.

 

Stajan or Backlund.

I'm not as in love with Backlund as some & really think Bennett will take the 2C position this year making Backlund @ 3.575 a rather expensive 3C.

 

I'm not as in love with Backlund either but $3.575 is not expensive for a 3C.  Talent wise, if you were to stack up Backlund against other 3Cs in the NHL, then you'll find he stacks up very well.  He just doesn't score enough to stack up against other 2Cs when other teams who are better than the Flames have like Malkin, Couture, J.Carter, Spezza, Kesler, etc.

 

My only beef with Backlund is that 3Cs don't necessarily need to provide much offense as long as the shut down abilities are there. Backlund isn't even the best pure shut down guy out there but more of a hybrid.  It's possible to find a solid one-way shut down 3C who excels at D better than Backlund at around $2-mil.

 

So therefore, i would trade Backlund if the price was right.  I wouldn't just give him away as I think Backlund can and may be able to fetch a young RHS RW like Rickard Rakell or maybe Charlie Coyle.

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Most everyone on these boards wants to get rid of Wideman. Some think he has regressed, some don't want the wrath of the refs to come down on the team, but for whatever reasons they want him gone. I was not stating JH was better or worse than Hall. I was giving FF my take on his suggested trade. I saw no need to include Backs in it or the 2nd round pick. 

 

What would you give up to rid the Flames of Wideman? Just the cleared cap space alone would be worth him gone.

To me Wideman is a solid 5d, if not a 4d and will play most if not all of the season with the Flames. Last year was an off year for varying reasons and I expect he will have a bounce-back year. There is no need to get rid of Wideman, and I'm certainly not giving anything up to have another team take him off our hands. Nonsense! If we're really fortunate his play this year will provide time for our young guys to get up to speed while mentoring Jokipakka and (hopefully) Nakladal, or Wotherspoon and provide a couple solid picks at the TDL.

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To me Wideman is a solid 5d, if not a 4d and will play most if not all of the season with the Flames. Last year was an off year for varying reasons and I expect he will have a bounce-back year. There is no need to get rid of Wideman, and I'm certainly not giving anything up to have another team take him off our hands. Nonsense! If we're really fortunate his play this year will provide time for our young guys to get up to speed while mentoring Jokipakka and (hopefully) Nakladal, or Wotherspoon and provide a couple solid picks at the TDL.

 

I believe Wideman is a solid 4d...

 

At $5.25-mil, not to mention, RHS RD who will have to be played on the left side with Engellend and an experiment that totally failed last year, Wideman needs to go.

 

I do agree we shouldn't give up something to cut him loose, like certainly shouldn't give up a draft pick to trade him away.   He's not that bad.  But if we can get anything like a young cheap 3rd pairing Dman or 3rd/4th liner, then that's the cap friendly thing to do.

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Most everyone on these boards wants to get rid of Wideman. Some think he has regressed, some don't want the wrath of the refs to come down on the team, but for whatever reasons they want him gone. I was not stating JH was better or worse than Hall. I was giving FF my take on his suggested trade. I saw no need to include Backs in it or the 2nd round pick. 

 

What would you give up to rid the Flames of Wideman? Just the cleared cap space alone would be worth him gone.

 

 My beef with Wideman is mostly centered around being an expiring asset whose top 4 position has been replaced by a younger, better defensive player.  Dougie may still have warts, but I think he will be much much better than Wideman.  Keeping his salary for the year to have him play 3rd pairing minutes is a waste, but won't kill us.  

 

If it came down to giving up an asset just to trade him, I am out.  I would park him on the bench or play him in a limited role, unless he was crushing it.  Sure, he brings offense, but his defensive struggles are making it harder to play him extended minutes.

 

Emelin for Wideman works for me.  He's a LHS and would be useful if we keep Engelland.  He has two years left, so we could expose him.  We save a mil or so in cap and $1.6m actual salary this year.  They could throw in a prospect to balance the money.

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I would be much more into the idea of keeping Wideman if we weren't set up the way we are.

He doesn't fit with Hamilton. He doesn't fit with Engelland. So your stuck leaving him with someone he doesn't fit with, parking him on the bench, or splitting up the Giordano-Brodie pair and putting him with one of them. Which means shutdown minutes he isn't well equipped for (not to mention splitting up our best pair).

He just doesn't fit well on the rostet when it's healthy.

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DSP is a much more realistic get than Santini who has a lot of upside in the next few years.  It's only Wideman.

 

 

I'm not as in love with Backlund either but $3.575 is not expensive for a 3C.  Talent wise, if you were to stack up Backlund against other 3Cs in the NHL, then you'll find he stacks up very well.  He just doesn't score enough to stack up against other 2Cs when other teams who are better than the Flames have like Malkin, Couture, J.Carter, Spezza, Kesler, etc.

 

My only beef with Backlund is that 3Cs don't necessarily need to provide much offense as long as the shut down abilities are there. Backlund isn't even the best pure shut down guy out there but more of a hybrid.  It's possible to find a solid one-way shut down 3C who excels at D better than Backlund at around $2-mil.

 

So therefore, i would trade Backlund if the price was right.  I wouldn't just give him away as I think Backlund can and may be able to fetch a young RHS RW like Rickard Rakell or maybe Charlie Coyle.

Backlund doesn't require any decision for now at 3.75M but when it comes time to pay Bennett , Backlund becomes a luxury. The Flames have two years and I think they should use them by keeping Backlund and dealing Stajan.

I mentioned and thought BT might want to use this offseason to deal both Wideman and Stajan off to NJD but I guess that wasn't in his thinking.

In regards to Rakell and Coyle as much as I would love to see either as Flames I don't see their current teams trading them.

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I would be much more into the idea of keeping Wideman if we weren't set up the way we are.

He doesn't fit with Hamilton. He doesn't fit with Engelland. So your stuck leaving him with someone he doesn't fit with, parking him on the bench, or splitting up the Giordano-Brodie pair and putting him with one of them. Which means shutdown minutes he isn't well equipped for (not to mention splitting up our best pair).

He just doesn't fit well on the rostet when it's healthy.

I agree the fit isn't within the ranks right now unless you pair him with Wotherspoon on the 3rd pairing and sit Engelland. If they were to break up Giordano and Brodie this season would be the time to try it IMO maybe at least until Wideman is gone. He needs to stay on the RS because we witnessed how terrible he was when demoted down to LS on the 3rd pairing. He is terrible defensively regardless and needs to be paired with someone that can back him up, that for me is Giordano.

 

Brodie , Hamilton

Giordano , Wideman

Jokipakka, Engelland

Wotherspoon

 

If Nakladal gets signed it may have to be like last season on a two way until one of Wideman or Engelland is dealt.

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My only beef with Backlund is that 3Cs don't necessarily need to provide much offense as long as the shut down abilities are there. Backlund isn't even the best pure shut down guy out there but more of a hybrid.  It's possible to find a solid one-way shut down 3C who excels at D better than Backlund at around $2-mil.

 

So therefore, i would trade Backlund if the price was right.  I wouldn't just give him away as I think Backlund can and may be able to fetch a young RHS RW like Rickard Rakell or maybe Charlie Coyle.

 

For me though, this has been a recent change in the game. I think the hybrid is the way to go because IMO if you want to be a contender you need 3 lines that can produce offensivley with at least some consistancy. You can't just limit yourself to a top 6 bottom 6 anymore, IMO at least. Other than faceoffs, which he needs to get better at, I view Backlund as the ideal 3rd line center in today's game and for how the game will continue to go. 

 

I do agree though at 3.75 is not too much for Backlund an in fact a very good 3rd line center should make exactly that. You need to invest in Center ice as there are just not enough good ones to go around. Having said all of this on Backlund I do think Bennett will likely be a center for the Flames and Backlund could be pricing himself out of a future in Calgary so he is not someone I am opposed to trading but it would be for a very good return and certainly not as a throw in. 

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For me though, this has been a recent change in the game. I think the hybrid is the way to go because IMO if you want to be a contender you need 3 lines that can produce offensivley with at least some consistancy. You can't just limit yourself to a top 6 bottom 6 anymore, IMO at least. Other than faceoffs, which he needs to get better at, I view Backlund as the ideal 3rd line center in today's game and for how the game will continue to go. 

 

I do agree though at 3.75 is not too much for Backlund an in fact a very good 3rd line center should make exactly that. You need to invest in Center ice as there are just not enough good ones to go around. Having said all of this on Backlund I do think Bennett will likely be a center for the Flames and Backlund could be pricing himself out of a future in Calgary so he is not someone I am opposed to trading but it would be for a very good return and certainly not as a throw in. 

Hard to say what the future holds in store for players such as Backlund. If others view him  as no more than a 3rd line C then 3.75M perhaps becomes a salary ceiling for him. If he can get that with the Flames again maybe he extends.

Look at Hudler and Russell in FA, they are both looking at contracts between 2M to 3M max.

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I agree the fit isn't within the ranks right now unless you pair him with Wotherspoon on the 3rd pairing and sit Engelland. If they were to break up Giordano and Brodie this season would be the time to try it IMO maybe at least until Wideman is gone. He needs to stay on the RS because we witnessed how terrible he was when demoted down to LS on the 3rd pairing. He is terrible defensively regardless and needs to be paired with someone that can back him up, that for me is Giordano.

 

Brodie , Hamilton

Giordano , Wideman

Jokipakka, Engelland

Wotherspoon

 

If Nakladal gets signed it may have to be like last season on a two way until one of Wideman or Engelland is dealt.

 

Brodie/Hamilton is fine.  That doesn't fit Brodie the best, but at least he can play the LD spot comfortably.  Putting Gio with Wideman is a huge mistake.  Gio regularly took on the toughest competition (with Brodie) last season and previous seasons.  To have him play with a less mobile, less defensively agile player is inviting trouble.  

 

I don't think pairings should be based on trying to rebuild a player, either for sale purposes or to see if he can rebound.  Hartley did that a lot last season; playing Wideman and Colborne many PP minutes to try and get offense from them, or putting Raymond in many situations to see that he could fit.

 

We are losing Wideman the end of this season at the latest.  If we can trade him before then without sending anything else away, it's a win.  If not, don't waste precious minutes on him if he can't use whatever you give him.  So pair him with Spoon or Engelland and see what he does.  Yokipakka is fine with Hamilton.  Gio is fine with Brodie.  Unless you add someone in FA, don't mix up the pairs.

Just MHO.

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Brodie/Hamilton is fine.  That doesn't fit Brodie the best, but at least he can play the LD spot comfortably.  Putting Gio with Wideman is a huge mistake.  Gio regularly took on the toughest competition (with Brodie) last season and previous seasons.  To have him play with a less mobile, less defensively agile player is inviting trouble.  

 

I don't think pairings should be based on trying to rebuild a player, either for sale purposes or to see if he can rebound.  Hartley did that a lot last season; playing Wideman and Colborne many PP minutes to try and get offense from them, or putting Raymond in many situations to see that he could fit.

 

We are losing Wideman the end of this season at the latest.  If we can trade him before then without sending anything else away, it's a win.  If not, don't waste precious minutes on him if he can't use whatever you give him.  So pair him with Spoon or Engelland and see what he does.  Yokipakka is fine with Hamilton.  Gio is fine with Brodie.  Unless you add someone in FA, don't mix up the pairs.

Just MHO.

I am only suggesting Giordano with Wideman as the best defender to shore up Wideman's weakness, any team would do the same. Should this help his play and make him more productive and marketable in the process, BONUS. You and I don't agree on this so let's not fire up the same tired argument.

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I think if it were a different yr and it wasn't a expansion yr we could have seen some young talent come up and stay up but due to the expansion we have to protect our kids. Next yr we will see alot of them emerge from the dust after everything settles of course we could see call ups but no player wil stay up I don't think. Of course I'm not totally sure how this Expansion will effect kids in there entry level contracts so might not effect them at all if that is the case then bring them on.

 

Backs is a perfect 3rd line center he does alot of things right and he is still young and learning. With the new system that should be put in place this season his play could be much better who knows? The run and gun type of play BH had them playing might not have been to his strengths this could be his yr.

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I am only suggesting Giordano with Wideman as the best defender to shore up Wideman's weakness, any team would do the same. Should this help his play and make him more productive and marketable in the process, BONUS. You and I don't agree on this so let's not fire up the same tired argument.

 

Brodie makes Gio better; Wideman does not.  You can play Gio/Brodie against the league best; you can't do that with Wideman.  The other parts of the disagreement are just side notes.

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Backlund's hit isn't that bad for a 3rd liner, is it? A lot seem ok with paying someone a few extra hundred thousands and really as a 3rd line C that's what he is getting paid. I see a 2C getting between 4.5m - 5.5m. Backs is really overpaid by about $300,000 as a 3C.

It's a lot, but not that bad. Some were ok with the extra Bouma got and some other players. Backs is our best possession player and can play in any situation against any opponent. That few extra isn't bad.

I think he is replaced by Jankowski, not Bennett. Being leapfrogged by the latter does not make him expendable. It's Jankowski who does and that will give us a more affordable option in a few years.

Also, although, Backlund still has to prove his injury woes are behind him.

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Backlund's hit isn't that bad for a 3rd liner, is it? A lot seem ok with paying someone a few extra hundred thousands and really as a 3rd line C that's what he is getting paid. I see a 2C getting between 4.5m - 5.5m. Backs is really overpaid by about $300,000 as a 3C.

It's a lot, but not that bad. Some were ok with the extra Bouma got and some other players. Backs is our best possession player and can play in any situation against any opponent. That few extra isn't bad.

I think he is replaced by Jankowski, not Bennett. Being leapfrogged by the latter does not make him expendable. It's Jankowski who does and that will give us a more affordable option in a few years.

Also, although, Backlund still has to prove his injury woes are behind him.

 

Not only do I think Backlund is not overpaid (not even slighly) I would actually argue his is one of the best value contract the Flames have.

 

People get too hung up on labels as 1st/2nd line etc. For what Backlund gives you, I would argue he is underpaid. 

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Backlund's hit isn't that bad for a 3rd liner, is it? A lot seem ok with paying someone a few extra hundred thousands and really as a 3rd line C that's what he is getting paid. I see a 2C getting between 4.5m - 5.5m. Backs is really overpaid by about $300,000 as a 3C.

It's a lot, but not that bad. Some were ok with the extra Bouma got and some other players. Backs is our best possession player and can play in any situation against any opponent. That few extra isn't bad.

I think he is replaced by Jankowski, not Bennett. Being leapfrogged by the latter does not make him expendable. It's Jankowski who does and that will give us a more affordable option in a few years.

Also, although, Backlund still has to prove his injury woes are behind him.

How do you prove your injuries are behind you ? LOL they either happen or they don't. Do we or will we know what we have in Jankowski by the end of next season ? I would say he comes in to replace a hopefully gone by then Stajan. If in 2017/18 he looks like he could replace Backlund then it gives BT options for trading him. GMs like having options.

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