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Realistic Trade suggestions for improvement

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16 hours ago, phoenix66 said:

and in the meantime,how do you propose we get that top winger we need?

gotta give up somebody of value if you want somebody of value back 

 

Brodie is the only one I see who carries value, that we can afford to lose  

I love the thought of BP being able to enhance what we already have, and especially to be able to promote and invest successfully in young guys.  So, let's see.  We have a 30-goal-pace 1RW (until both Monahan and Ferland got injured and the line cratered) who is fast, ferocious with a great shot... sounds like exactly what we need for 1RW, check.  We have multiple guys that can/have played RW, most prominently Tkachuk, who was outstanding there in Junior and needs a promotion to a top scoring line, check.  We have Bennett who is fast, aggressive and a great competitor and flashed signs of brilliance including with Gaudreau and Monahan, he has been best at LW but seems flexible, check.  

 

So, there's three good options and that's before I even start to look at prospects like Foo, and others... either for 1RW or lower down the line-up.  And could I be converting a Centre to 1RW and coming out ahead of the game?  Dare I say again Monahan with Bennett to 1C, or maybe Jankowski makes a big jump?  ANY of these options can get exactly what we need so I'd not be in a big rush to get a guy who has proven it in the past for another team.  How often does that work out?  Be patient.  Not saying don't look at trades, because we have a glut of solid D with more on the way that might be even better so something has to give.  Just don't be in a panic to do so, wait for a good deal and build from within at every opportunity.

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1 hour ago, cccsberg said:

I love the thought of BP being able to enhance what we already have, and especially to be able to promote and invest successfully in young guys.  So, let's see.  We have a 30-goal-pace 1RW (until both Monahan and Ferland got injured and the line cratered) who is fast, ferocious with a great shot... sounds like exactly what we need for 1RW, check.  We have multiple guys that can/have played RW, most prominently Tkachuk, who was outstanding there in Junior and needs a promotion to a top scoring line, check.  We have Bennett who is fast, aggressive and a great competitor and flashed signs of brilliance including with Gaudreau and Monahan, he has been best at LW but seems flexible, check.  

 

So, there's three good options and that's before I even start to look at prospects like Foo, and others... either for 1RW or lower down the line-up.  And could I be converting a Centre to 1RW and coming out ahead of the game?  Dare I say again Monahan with Bennett to 1C, or maybe Jankowski makes a big jump?  ANY of these options can get exactly what we need so I'd not be in a big rush to get a guy who has proven it in the past for another team.  How often does that work out?  Be patient.  Not saying don't look at trades, because we have a glut of solid D with more on the way that might be even better so something has to give.  Just don't be in a panic to do so, wait for a good deal and build from within at every opportunity.

I have given this some thought as well overnight. If we step back and take a look at what we have and what we know about them there could be a better arrangement. We know Ferland can effectively play RW and contribute scoring. We know how well Backlund and Frolik play together plus they allowed Tkachuk to grow and learn for a few years. We have witnessed that Tkachuk will make a difference wherever he plays. We have seen Bennett flounder at both C and LW if we are being honest but he as become a more responsible player. We have seen flashes of briliiance from Jankowski who will emerge with his talents given the support. I think it fair to say we as a team want better answers for our RW and better results in the face off circle for our forward group. Below is my solution for our forward group using three additions Spenser Foo, Klimchuk and Derek Ryan UFA - C.

Gaudreau, Monahan, Foo ( Foo is 24 years old and JG and SM should be able to bring him along so he contributes)

Bennett, Backlund, Frolik ( this provides Bennett the support he has always lacked and should make for a stronger checking line and secondary scoring)

Tkachuk, Jankowski, Ferland ( the dynamics of this line is for each of them to bring out each others strengths)

Klimchuk , Ryan, Shore ( it is time for Klimchuk and he is a LHS-LW and the addition of Ryan and Shore are solid support plus good players themselves)

Lomberg, Hathaway ( another natural LW and RW that can provide that excitement factor when needed)

I think BT should do what is necessary to move out Brouwer and Lazar, they just haven't worked here.

DEFENSE 

Keep everybody again but use them differently.

Giordano, Hamilton

Brodie, Andersson ( Brodie could be just the right mentor for Andersson by making him work )

Kulak, Hamonic ( Kulak is more conservative tan Brodie but can still push some offense, let Hamonic and Stone be the steady influences)

Stone

GOALIES

Smith, Rittich (take advantage of having a very good veteran Goalie for 1 more season but get Rittich into the right amount of games)

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1 hour ago, cccsberg said:

I love the thought of BP being able to enhance what we already have, and especially to be able to promote and invest successfully in young guys.  So, let's see.  We have a 30-goal-pace 1RW (until both Monahan and Ferland got injured and the line cratered) who is fast, ferocious with a great shot... sounds like exactly what we need for 1RW, check.  We have multiple guys that can/have played RW, most prominently Tkachuk, who was outstanding there in Junior and needs a promotion to a top scoring line, check.  We have Bennett who is fast, aggressive and a great competitor and flashed signs of brilliance including with Gaudreau and Monahan, he has been best at LW but seems flexible, check.  

 

So, there's three good options and that's before I even start to look at prospects like Foo, and others... either for 1RW or lower down the line-up.  And could I be converting a Centre to 1RW and coming out ahead of the game?  Dare I say again Monahan with Bennett to 1C, or maybe Jankowski makes a big jump?  ANY of these options can get exactly what we need so I'd not be in a big rush to get a guy who has proven it in the past for another team.  How often does that work out?  Be patient.  Not saying don't look at trades, because we have a glut of solid D with more on the way that might be even better so something has to give.  Just don't be in a panic to do so, wait for a good deal and build from within at every opportunity.

I'm all for letting kids take the jobs, but they need to take them . 

A big reason we stumbled last year was we expected that to happen . Foo, Shinkaruk, Klimchuck, and Poirer etc..  one or 2 were expected to take one of those spots in camp and didn't. We had to go sign Jagr

All levels were preaching "this is the year Bennett breaks out ".. didn't happen 

Ferland was great on that top line.. for about 40 games

You can make the argument the coach was reluctant to work them in , and I do believe Peters is more adept at doing that ,   but the fact remains we have a hole or 2 that needs to be plugged. If we go into next season with the same basic roster , and we stumble again .. Tre gets fired .. simple as that .

 

The great thing is, if we acquire a top player , and we get a kid that makes a push?  you trade one away from a position of strength. That's where we are with D right now .. TJ is expendable because we do have kids knocking on the door.

 

Right or wrong .. I do also believe there is some politics involved . This team needs to have a successful run to make a better push for a stadium deal. Nothing gets the public behind a team like a good run . This I believe is a big reason as well why the teams mantra from ownership is "start winning now ". Like it or hate it, agree or disagree but its just the reality .

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23 minutes ago, phoenix66 said:

I'm all for letting kids take the jobs, but they need to take them . 

A big reason we stumbled last year was we expected that to happen . Foo, Shinkaruk, Klimchuck, and Poirer etc..  one or 2 were expected to take one of those spots in camp and didn't. We had to go sign Jagr

All levels were preaching "this is the year Bennett breaks out ".. didn't happen 

Ferland was great on that top line.. for about 40 games

You can make the argument the coach was reluctant to work them in , and I do believe Peters is more adept at doing that ,   but the fact remains we have a hole or 2 that needs to be plugged. If we go into next season with the same basic roster , and we stumble again .. Tre gets fired .. simple as that .

 

The great thing is, if we acquire a top player , and we get a kid that makes a push?  you trade one away from a position of strength. That's where we are with D right now .. TJ is expendable because we do have kids knocking on the door.

 

Right or wrong .. I do also believe there is some politics involved . This team needs to have a successful run to make a better push for a stadium deal. Nothing gets the public behind a team like a good run . This I believe is a big reason as well why the teams mantra from ownership is "start winning now ". Like it or hate it, agree or disagree but its just the reality .

I am going to disagree with all 3 areas of your post.

I don't think management ever thought any of Foo, Shinkaruk, Klimchuk or Poirier were ready to challenge for spots this past season. This is why they resigned Versteeg and brought in Jagr and we stumbled as the initial plans failed from injuries to these two. All the players mentioned were not ready depth either but should be this coming season.

Ideally after next season would be the best time to trade Brodie or even Giordano depending on the development of Kulak and Valimaki. I think moving Brodie now would be selling at low value and he needs to bounce back in 2018/19 for us.

The arena decision is its own situation and whether the team makes a run or not that building will take place in its own timing. Our economy sucks right now and people pushing for an arena are going to have to wait.

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3 minutes ago, MAC331 said:

I am going to disagree with all 3 areas of your post.

I don't think management ever thought any of Foo, Shinkaruk, Klimchuk or Poirier were ready to challenge for spots this past season. This is why they resigned Versteeg and brought in Jagr and we stumbled as the initial plans failed from injuries to these two. All the players mentioned were not ready depth either but should be this coming season.

Ideally after next season would be the best time to trade Brodie or even Giordano depending on the development of Kulak and Valimaki. I think moving Brodie now would be selling at low value and he needs to bounce back in 2018/19 for us.

The arena decision is its own situation and whether the team makes a run or not that building will take place in its own timing. Our economy sucks right now and people pushing for an arena are going to have to wait.

Jagr was signed at literally the end of training camp because we had holes that weren't filled in camp. Versteeg didn't get injured until into the season , and was actually the healthiest he'd ever been for a camp (per him)

If your theory is true, why wasn't a player signed earlier ? If we had a hole after  camp we definitely had one before 

I cant find the quote but Tre said as much , that the benefit of the improved defense would allow the kids from the farm to develop into the roles .They expected somebody to grab one of those spots .They even took an extended look at Dube because of it 

 

Andersson is ready to be here and play regularly . Peters even said as much " if hes doing that at The A level he can do it here ", Wotherspoon is ready to be a #7, Kulak is here to stay .. aside from Bart , somebody needs to get to make that happen . Id even argue as a guy that can float up and down the pairings Stone is more valuable than Brodie .

To hold them back, just to get a better value in return .. is BAD management 

 

and if you don't think that ownership wants to get all the leverage they can for a deal , and don't believe a winning team is part of that .. you know nothing of politics.

Right now this city is apathetic towards the team, it hurts their bargaining power because whoever owns the public wins. Its absolutely the reason the ownership is fast tracking .

If we do another 2004, you don't think that paints Nenshi into a corner ?

Being involved in politics , with people I know close to Ken King and the team, I can tell you they definitely want the emotion a winning team creates .

They tried to get it more of an issue in the City election,  but the Provincial election is next year .. actually about this time..  The plan is, a winning exciting team makes it easier to make it an election issue  

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4 minutes ago, phoenix66 said:

Jagr was signed at literally the end of training camp because we had holes that weren't filled in camp. Versteeg didn't get injured until into the season , and was actually the healthiest he'd ever been for a camp (per him)

If your theory is true, why wasn't a player signed earlier ? If we had a hole after  camp we definitely had one before 

I cant find the quote but Tre said as much , that the benefit of the improved defense would allow the kids from the farm to develop into the roles .They expected somebody to grab one of those spots .They even took an extended look at Dube because of it 

 

Andersson is ready to be here and play regularly . Peters even said as much " if hes doing that at The A level he can do it here ", Wotherspoon is ready to be a #7, Kulak is here to stay .. aside from Bart , somebody needs to get to make that happen . Id even argue as a guy that can float up and down the pairings Stone is more valuable than Brodie .

To hold them back, just to get a better value in return .. is BAD management 

 

and if you don't think that ownership wants to get all the leverage they can for a deal , and don't believe a winning team is part of that .. you know nothing of politics.

Right now this city is apathetic towards the team, it hurts their bargaining power because whoever owns the public wins. Its absolutely the reason the ownership is fast tracking .

If we do another 2004, you don't think that paints Nenshi into a corner ?

Being involved in politics , with people I know close to Ken King and the team, I can tell you they definitely want the emotion a winning team creates .

They tried to get it more of an issue in the City election,  but the Provincial election is next year .. actually about this time..  The plan is, a winning exciting team makes it easier to make it an election issue  

Again I will disagree with what you have here and the assumptions you appear to be making. We had a number of positions held down by already roster players and adding Versteeg and Jagr (in the making before camp occurred) pushed others out of the picture if they were even in it. Dube was NOT a consideration at all.

Andersson is ready now yes but he wasn't deemed ready all through the offseason and into the season or why sign Stone if he was ready. Now more ready than ever. Wotherspoon could bolt any day. Stone could be used in a lot of ways but to say keeping Brodie is BAD management is WRONG on your part, not only can he be a plus player for this team by bouncing back he could have a higher value next offseason or at the TDL. A GM needs to have options available.

I know plenty about politics and I know the people involved plus I know the state of Alberta's economy and where it may or may not go in the next 5 years.

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What assumptions , its black and white . Jagr was a last minute add.(just as Versteeg was the year before)

Jagr himself even said he had no indications he would play this season until a week before the season .

 

ok , so then you must know that Murray Edwards has told King and the other owners they have until 2020  to get a deal done or he's selling his share ?

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I get people's rationale but I don't agree at all that this is as simple as let's shuffle around a few pieces and the results will get much better. If it were that easy I don't think they would have fallen off a cliff like they did at the end of the season. If you want to bank on it fine, but the idea of that working is pretty rare.

 

If your goal is just to get into the playoffs then yes that approach might work, but if the Flames want to go further they absolutely need an injection of talent at forward. No question about it. 

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12 hours ago, Cowtownguy said:

I am not quite sure why Treliving acquired so many defencemen. More importantly, I am not sure why it appeared to have minimal effect. At least when Dave King dressed a metric Satoshi tonne of D, he made them count.

There is the injury factor. During the season the Jets used 10 defense while in 7 playoff games 8 have played.

Of the 10 only 2 are rookies that play regularly in the AHL.

That depth turned out to be very important.

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46 minutes ago, phoenix66 said:

What assumptions , its black and white . Jagr was a last minute add.(just as Versteeg was the year before)

Jagr himself even said he had no indications he would play this season until a week before the season .

 

ok , so then you must know that Murray Edwards has told King and the other owners they have until 2020  to get a deal done or he's selling his share ?

Where did you privy information that Edwards said such a thing ? Even if he did there are others that would take out Edwards.

The point I was making was if BT thought the need to bring back Versteeg and add Jagr they already believed the others were not quite the answer for this past season.

Now with another season of development we have a much different situation which should take some of our prospects into consideration. I would like to see Andersson and Wotherspoon moed up and Stone traded. I would like to see Foo and Klimchuk given early opportunities with the forward group but I would also like to see Brouwer gone.

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37 minutes ago, Thebrewcrew said:

For what’s its worth Gaudreau is on a line with Derek Ryan today 

 

Let the chemistry experiment begin....

Seriously, Ryan may be a good depth pickup, but let's not stop there.

Deal Brodie if it lands you a top 6 forward.

Buy out Brouwer to eliminate that option on the PP or a 2nd line fill in.

Look for a late summer clearance sale (UFA's not getting big bucks or trade for value).

 

Tavares may be the top get, but don't hold off looking at other options in the meantime.  GM's get itchy trigger fingers in the summer.

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1 hour ago, MAC331 said:

Where did you privy information that Edwards said such a thing ? Even if he did there are others that would take out Edwards.

The point I was making was if BT thought the need to bring back Versteeg and add Jagr they already believed the others were not quite the answer for this past season.

Now with another season of development we have a much different situation which should take some of our prospects into consideration. I would like to see Andersson and Wotherspoon moed up and Stone traded. I would like to see Foo and Klimchuk given early opportunities with the forward group but I would also like to see Brouwer gone.

A mix of a close friend that works for the NHL, a Father whos a member of the Calgary Petroleum Club and knows Edwards , and running for City council gets you inside of things :) 

 

I'd like to see all those things too, except the Stone trade.. he's valuable as a slider , and I think Peters is smart enough to incorporate his shot into our powerplay where it belongs.

but that doesn't change the fact we cant bank on those kids making that step.

Irregardless of the background politics, like I said before, if we bank on that and fall on our faces again..people are getting fired. That would be Tre saying it was all on the coach , which he has already said its not .

 

But again , we dont make the decisions and we all have our ideas what should be done .. I'm just simply predicting TJ is gone . He's our best trade chip , and through no fault of his own , he's expendable for the right price 

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56 minutes ago, Thebrewcrew said:

For what’s its worth Gaudreau is on a line with Derek Ryan today 

BP must be planning to move Gaudreau to our 4th line. LOL

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1 minute ago, MAC331 said:

BP must be planning to move Gaudreau to our 4th line. LOL

In Carolina?

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2 hours ago, Flyerfan52 said:

There is the injury factor. During the season the Jets used 10 defense while in 7 playoff games 8 have played.

Of the 10 only 2 are rookies that play regularly in the AHL.

That depth turned out to be very important.

 

Bartkowski 7th

Anderson 8th

Witherspoon 9th

????? 10th

and some want Brodie and Stone gone for draft picks.

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13 minutes ago, phoenix66 said:

A mix of a close friend that works for the NHL, a Father whos a member of the Calgary Petroleum Club and knows Edwards , and running for City council gets you inside of things :) 

 

I'd like to see all those things too, except the Stone trade.. he's valuable as a slider , and I think Peters is smart enough to incorporate his shot into our powerplay where it belongs.

but that doesn't change the fact we cant bank on those kids making that step.

Irregardless of the background politics, like I said before, if we bank on that and fall on our faces again..people are getting fired. That would be Tre saying it was all on the coach , which he has already said its not .

 

But again , we dont make the decisions and we all have our ideas what should be done .. I'm just simply predicting TJ is gone . He's our best trade chip , and through no fault of his own , he's expendable for the right price 

We will leave the arena and team moving debate for another day. I know people as well.

On a more serious thought that does have some steam I have been thinking about the acquisition of Tavares. He could solve a lot of our problems with some other willing participants for moving positions. I would entertain a top line of Monahan LW, Tavares C and Gaudreau RW for what I think makes some sense. Monahan is a LHS and scores a lot of goals from that side of the ice, Gaudreau even though a LHS is speedy and mobile enough to work his magic from anywhere in the O zone. Tavares will be good no matter what is ask of him.

You get Tavares and we could afford to stand pat and not trade Brodie or Stone unless BT wants some draft action higher up.

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13 minutes ago, CheersMan said:

 

Bartkowski 7th

Anderson 8th

Witherspoon 9th

????? 10th

and some want Brodie and Stone gone for draft picks.

 

10. Kylington

11. Valamaki

12. Josh Healey

 

Not even including someone like Cody Goloubef who also has NHL experience.  Flames are anything but shallow on D. 

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28 minutes ago, cross16 said:

 

10. Kylington

11. Valamaki

12. Josh Healey

 

Not even including someone like Cody Goloubef who also has NHL experience.  Flames are anything but shallow on D. 

The 8 teams still alive today would be shaking in their boots looking at that lineup.  No body is complaining about the prospect depth.  The issue is getting out of the basement.

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2 minutes ago, CheersMan said:

The 8 teams still alive today would be shaking in their boots looking at that lineup.  No body is complaining about the prospect depth.  The issue is getting out of the basement.

 

Yes the 10-12th dman on a roster are usually of great concern to opposing franchises.

 

So they get out of the basement by keeping the same players that didn't get the job done last year? Including Stone who was terrible when they have prospects that are better. What good is prospect depth if you don't want to use it?

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8 minutes ago, cross16 said:

 

Yes the 10-12th dman on a roster are usually of great concern to opposing franchises.

 

So they get out of the basement by keeping the same players that didn't get the job done last year? Including Stone who was terrible when they have prospects that are better. What good is prospect depth if you don't want to use it?

I believe I was talking 7-10, you've managed to stretch it to 10-12.  Carry on.

2-3 yrs ago we were talking how this time now would be our window.  Now some want to ice 50% of our dmen with players from Stockton next year.  What direction are we heading?

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50 minutes ago, MAC331 said:

We will leave the arena and team moving debate for another day. I know people as well.

On a more serious thought that does have some steam I have been thinking about the acquisition of Tavares. He could solve a lot of our problems with some other willing participants for moving positions. I would entertain a top line of Monahan LW, Tavares C and Gaudreau RW for what I think makes some sense. Monahan is a LHS and scores a lot of goals from that side of the ice, Gaudreau even though a LHS is speedy and mobile enough to work his magic from anywhere in the O zone. Tavares will be good no matter what is ask of him.

You get Tavares and we could afford to stand pat and not trade Brodie or Stone unless BT wants some draft action higher up.

Youre gonna be really upset when they Trade TJ aren't you :) 

 

we should be all over Tavares, but i actually see it more as being able to have a scary depth down center   Tavares, Monahan, Backlund Shore (?)

I'd probably distribute more like so : remembering Peters is a Pair guy

 

Tkachuk Tavares

Johnny Monahan

Backlund - Frolik

Shore Lazar

 

worry about the 3rds later 

 

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30 minutes ago, CheersMan said:

I believe I was talking 7-10, you've managed to stretch it to 10-12.  Carry on.

2-3 yrs ago we were talking how this time now would be our window.  Now some want to ice 50% of our dmen with players from Stockton next year.  What direction are we heading?

 

Even if they did swap out Brodie and Stone it's not 50%. Swapping out 2 players on your D is a fairly normal amount of player movement especially for a team that didn't make the playoffs. Especially considering that 75% of your top 4 including your entire top pairing would remain intact. 

 

I'm not one who is in a rush to trade Brodie so others will make their case on that. I'm only trading him if he yields a top 6 RS winger, if he doesn't I probably hold on but Stone has to go. Andersson for Stone is a talent upgrade for the Flames.  Flames clearly need more talent, not necessarily more experience. 

 

End of the day the Flames are shallow up front and deep on the back end. It's a pretty straightforward path to see how they could potentially get better as a team. 

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2 hours ago, phoenix66 said:

Youre gonna be really upset when they Trade TJ aren't you :) 

 

we should be all over Tavares, but i actually see it more as being able to have a scary depth down center   Tavares, Monahan, Backlund Shore (?)

I'd probably distribute more like so : remembering Peters is a Pair guy

 

Tkachuk Tavares

Johnny Monahan

Backlund - Frolik

Shore Lazar

 

worry about the 3rds later 

 

No not really I have been advocating for it for 3 years but I am saying he could serve us well here for another season now. Say we did get Tavares and moved a few current players around we wouldn't need to trade Brodie for a RW. There are aspects of Brodie's game that work well, those being PP and OT 3 on 3.

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4 hours ago, cross16 said:

 

Even if they did swap out Brodie and Stone it's not 50%. Swapping out 2 players on your D is a fairly normal amount of player movement especially for a team that didn't make the playoffs. Especially considering that 75% of your top 4 including your entire top pairing would remain intact. 

 

I'm not one who is in a rush to trade Brodie so others will make their case on that. I'm only trading him if he yields a top 6 RS winger, if he doesn't I probably hold on but Stone has to go. Andersson for Stone is a talent upgrade for the Flames.  Flames clearly need more talent, not necessarily more experience. 

 

End of the day the Flames are shallow up front and deep on the back end. It's a pretty straightforward path to see how they could potentially get better as a team. 

 

I concur.

Brodie is more valuable than a "meh" forward.

Swing a Hall trade, and it's a no-brainer to make the trade.

I would also say that Stone needs to go first.  Trade for picks or whatever.  Andersson is ready.  

It would hurt the top 4 a bit, since you would need to graduate Valimaki, play Kulak, or sign a vet on a one-year deal to fill the void left.  The first two could possibly do it.  Kulak played a bit with Hamonic to end the season.  Valimaki could be (just maybe) the real deal out of junior.

 

Just thinking out loud.  I have no issue with Kulak and Andersson playing the full year.  Makes Stone expendable.  

 

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