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Realistic Trade suggestions for improvement

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2 hours ago, MAC331 said:

Why do we need help at Goalie ? Why do we need help at C ? Fix RW and we have ourselves a team. We will only get quality players by trading quality players. I think with obtaining the quality on RW and removing what Brodie and Hamilton give up defensively we would be a better team. BT can address the vacated defense positions a few different ways.

 

Smith was really bad down the stretch last season.

Rittich choked when given a chance to take the reigns during Smith's injuy.

Gillies still looks raw.

 

Goaltending is arguably the most important position on the team and we are currently going into next season with a lot of maybes.  Not just that, what's peak for this group?  Many of our direct rivals have near Vezina level goaltending and don't have question marks.  We expect to compete with "average at best" goaltending?

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33 minutes ago, The_People1 said:

 

Smith was really bad down the stretch last season.

Rittich choked when given a chance to take the reigns during Smith's injuy.

Gillies still looks raw.

 

Goaltending is arguably the most important position on the team and we are currently going into next season with a lot of maybes.  Not just that, what's peak for this group?  Many of our direct rivals have near Vezina level goaltending and don't have question marks.  We expect to compete with "average at best" goaltending?

Totally agree. Can't go into a season thinking, "our G should be okay".

There has to be no question about it. When Smith went down we flopped. What if he goes down early? We can't expect the same formula to have a different outcome.

I've been a Rittich supporter from the outset, but can't let my own personal opinion get in the way.

The position needs strengthening.

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35 minutes ago, The_People1 said:

 

Smith was really bad down the stretch last season.

Rittich choked when given a chance to take the reigns during Smith's injuy.

Gillies still looks raw.

 

Goaltending is arguably the most important position on the team and we are currently going into next season with a lot of maybes.  Not just that, what's peak for this group?  Many of our direct rivals have near Vezina level goaltending and don't have question marks.  We expect to compete with "average at best" goaltending?

So when do these young goalies get the NHL experience required so they get acclimatized to the pressure involved ? It isn't like we are heading to the SC next season which is why I think we stay with all 3 and not bring in anyone else. A year ago WPG was unsure of Hellebyck and brought in Mason, how necessary in hindsight was that move ? I feel confident that Smith can give us another good season and that Rittich will prove out to be a good back up. Gilles and Parsons will battle it out for the next regular Goaltender.

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4 minutes ago, conundrumed said:

Totally agree. Can't go into a season thinking, "our G should be okay".

There has to be no question about it. When Smith went down we flopped. What if he goes down early? We can't expect the same formula to have a different outcome.

I've been a Rittich supporter from the outset, but can't let my own personal opinion get in the way.

The position needs strengthening.

I disagree. Everytime you add an outsider you are saying you don't trust the one you have or he isn't ready. When and how does Rittich get ready ? Why not let him learn from Smith while we have him just like Saros has learned from Renne ?

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1 minute ago, conundrumed said:

Totally agree. Can't go into a season thinking, "our G should be okay".

There has to be no question about it. When Smith went down we flopped. What if he goes down early? We can't expect the same formula to have a different outcome.

I've been a Rittich supporter from the outset, but can't let my own personal opinion get in the way.

The position needs strengthening.

 

Why? 2 goalies under the age of 26 have no chance to show improvement year over year after getting their first NHL experience?

 

I can buy the argument the position needs strengthen, but I would argue an improvement is unlikely, but I just don't agree or understand at all why we would assume that the same group is guaranteed to produce the same results. That's rarely how it works, especially when we are talking about 2 younger and inexperience NHL goalies. 

 

I think no matter the Flames will go into the season thinking goaltending "should" be ok, I don't see a true starter better than Smith available to them in either FA or trade so why not allow young guys to try and get better? We are always looking for the sure thing and failing to try and develop our own option. 

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1 hour ago, cross16 said:

 

Why? 2 goalies under the age of 26 have no chance to show improvement year over year after getting their first NHL experience?

 

I can buy the argument the position needs strengthen, but I would argue an improvement is unlikely, but I just don't agree or understand at all why we would assume that the same group is guaranteed to produce the same results. That's rarely how it works, especially when we are talking about 2 younger and inexperience NHL goalies. 

 

I think no matter the Flames will go into the season thinking goaltending "should" be ok, I don't see a true starter better than Smith available to them in either FA or trade so why not allow young guys to try and get better? We are always looking for the sure thing and failing to try and develop our own option. 

Fair enough and I agree with what you are saying.

I believe we are currently at peak goalies but no extras.

Smith/Rittich

Gillies/Parsons

MacDonald/Schneider

It's re-sign time with Gillies/Rittich and Rittich with arb rights. I don't foresee re-signing being an issue.

The one problem I foresee is what is Smith's cutoff for games played?

He's played 55 the last 2 seasons, and last year's injury makes you wonder if we were going to 70+ with him?

3 years ago he was limited to 32 due to injury.

 

So my wonder is how will we be sitting in case of injury. Is it warranted to have an insurance policy with him?

And how many reg season starts should we limit him too?

Like I say, I like Rittich, I like his mechanics a lot. Can we give him 20-25 starts minimum, is he ready for that?

As usual this offseason, I have more questions than answers.

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7 minutes ago, conundrumed said:

 

So my wonder is how will we be sitting in case of injury. Is it warranted to have an insurance policy with him?

And how many reg season starts should we limit him too?

Like I say, I like Rittich, I like his mechanics a lot. Can we give him 20-25 starts minimum, is he ready for that?

As usual this offseason, I have more questions than answers.

 

All fair points and I understand where you are coming from.

 

For me, i'm in the "we won't know util we try camp" and i'm prepared and ready for that because I think the organization needs more of it. I'm guilty of this too, but like Burke said yesterday one of the biggest lessons to learn from Vegas is let's stop pigeon holing players, give them chances and see what can happen. You've got 2 young goalies in behind so IMO you've already got your insurance policy and the challenge should be to accept it and use it, despite the risk, rather than constantly search for a "sure thing" that doesn't likely exist or is going to be very expensive. 

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8 minutes ago, conundrumed said:

Fair enough and I agree with what you are saying.

I believe we are currently at peak goalies but no extras.

Smith/Rittich

Gillies/Parsons

MacDonald/Schneider

It's re-sign time with Gillies/Rittich and Rittich with arb rights. I don't foresee re-signing being an issue.

The one problem I foresee is what is Smith's cutoff for games played?

He's played 55 the last 2 seasons, and last year's injury makes you wonder if we were going to 70+ with him?

3 years ago he was limited to 32 due to injury.

 

So my wonder is how will we be sitting in case of injury. Is it warranted to have an insurance policy with him?

And how many reg season starts should we limit him too?

Like I say, I like Rittich, I like his mechanics a lot. Can we give him 20-25 starts minimum, is he ready for that?

As usual this offseason, I have more questions than answers.

Ive started taking a slightly different view of goalie development .. all prospects for that matter .

basically , you excel where you are then you go to the next level... i truly believe right now Macdonald and Schneider are just filler until another prospect ,moves them out .

Macdonald anyway , but we'll see how Schneider shows in the E this year. ,  but he wasn't lighting up the WHL this year as an overager 

 

Rittich has nothing left to prove in the A. 

It's all about coaching and conditioning at the NHL level. Tweak his game some more.. his conditioning(mental and physical) will determine how many games he can handle 

They just need to challenge him with more opponents and coach the situations when they show themselves 

 

Gilles needs to show he can be a consistent true #1.. by doing that in the A next year .. Parsons needs to get his feet wet at that level, even still go back to the E and get game volume. He may or may not pass Gillies on the depth chart .

 

to go get another young goalie , is displacing the 3.. so it better be a trade for a real hotshot (like a Grubauer) that necessitates you include one in the deal ( i love Rittich but I'd include him in a deal for Grubauer)

 

on the backend.. i fully expect another goal prospect to be drafted this year 

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I don't see it in Grubauer personally. if Trotz didn't come to his senses and go back to Holtby there is no doubt in my mind the Caps lose that series. 

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23 minutes ago, conundrumed said:

I'd be looking at Hutton personally, if we went that route.

He's 32 & his @s look better the last few years with fewer  starts.

As a UFA that was paid 1.125 the last 2 years he should be an affordable backup on a fairly short term contract. Probably the best option from the UFA class to limit Smith's work load & be insurance against injury.

2nd choice Bernier.

 

But, that means holding back the AHLers. I guess we'll see how much the Flames value them by the next contract they recieve.

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40 minutes ago, conundrumed said:

I'd be looking at Hutton personally, if we went that route.

OK .. so lets say you did that . He's a UFA so you just have to sign him. But you are officially basically saying Goodbye to Ritich.

Hes now waiver eligible , so sending him down is not an option (high chance he gets claimed).. are you trading him?  not qualifying him ? Are we sure Hutton is even an upgrade? (after Darling I no longer put any stock in hot backups)

 

I'll say this .. if you bring a Rittich replacement , you better be big time sure this is your replacement for Smith in a year or 2

 

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1 hour ago, Flyerfan52 said:

He's 32 & his @s look better the last few years with fewer  starts.

As a UFA that was paid 1.125 the last 2 years he should be an affordable backup on a fairly short term contract. Probably the best option from the UFA class to limit Smith's work load & be insurance against injury.

2nd choice Bernier.

 

But, that means holding back the AHLers. I guess we'll see how much the Flames value them by the next contract they recieve.

Its time to give the AHLers the support and ride them out the season to see who emerges.  Both Rittich and Gillies have been reasonable to very good, with a couple glitches.  No goalie out there that is available is without glitches.  Many say go get Grubauer, but even he went into the toilet once playoffs started, and we can't afford to be giving away assets when we have options internally. 

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1 hour ago, phoenix66 said:

OK .. so lets say you did that . He's a UFA so you just have to sign him. But you are officially basically saying Goodbye to Ritich.

Hes now waiver eligible , so sending him down is not an option (high chance he gets claimed).. are you trading him?  not qualifying him ? Are we sure Hutton is even an upgrade? (after Darling I no longer put any stock in hot backups)

 

I'll say this .. if you bring a Rittich replacement , you better be big time sure this is your replacement for Smith in a year or 2

 

Just having the discussion is all.

Not deadset in it. If you sign Rittich AND Hutton.

Perhaps there's decent trade assets there if it comes to pass.

Teams sometimes fall into the "need goaltending" abyss, hi Chicago.

Never hurts to have more strength there.

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5 minutes ago, conundrumed said:

Just having the discussion is all.

Not deadset in it. If you sign Rittich AND Hutton.

Perhaps there's decent trade assets there if it comes to pass.

Teams sometimes fall into the "need goaltending" abyss, hi Chicago.

Never hurts to have more strength there.

oh same here , just pondering what the process would look like 

I'm all for improvement ..in a perfect world , Smith is a backup in 2 years .. we only have 1 season really to get a good grip on who the bulk starter will be 

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1 hour ago, phoenix66 said:

oh same here , just pondering what the process would look like 

I'm all for improvement ..in a perfect world , Smith is a backup in 2 years .. we only have 1 season really to get a good grip on who the bulk starter will be 

 

Smith has one year left here.  I don;t think he will be a starter anywhere after that.

Rittich seems to me to be the perfect backup, for now and the future.  Not a starter, but that's just me.

Gillies has to be able to be a starter in 2019/20, which is a tall order.  :) 

 

If it was possible, I think the ideal thing would be to trade Smith for Saros.  That gives you a good 1a goalie, and you can play Rittich as the 1b.  He should be ready for that.

If either falls flat, then you have Gillies waiting in the wings, playing most games in Stockton, with Parsons getting the rest.  

If both play well enough, then you have more time to groom Parson or Gillies, and now have a trade asset.

 

Smith is a gamble this year.  If he starts off as bad as his finished last season, then we are hooped.  He'll continue getting starts and continue to lose.

 

 

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10 hours ago, MAC331 said:

Why do we need help at Goalie ? Why do we need help at C ? Fix RW and we have ourselves a team. We will only get quality players by trading quality players. I think with obtaining the quality on RW and removing what Brodie and Hamilton give up defensively we would be a better team. BT can address the vacated defense positions a few different ways.

 

As others have said, Smith was bad down the stretch. He is 36 and on the final year of his contract. I don't like Rittich's game. I think he is a fine back up but I don't think he will ever be a starter. I do like Gilles game, but he has never really bounced back since his surgery. 

 

At centre we have Monahan, Backlund, Jankowski. That doesn't compare well to a majority of the top teams in the league. And we are an injury away from serious trouble. 

 

Maybe Jankowski takes a big step. Maybe Smith rebounds. Maybe Gilles or Rittich shows starter potential. But we shouldn't be starting a season with a bunch of big maybes. Not with where we are. 

 

That said, we have limited assets to do a lot of fixing so we probably don't have a choice. 

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11 hours ago, cross16 said:

 

I think no matter the Flames will go into the season thinking goaltending "should" be ok, I don't see a true starter better than Smith available to them in either FA or trade so why not allow young guys to try and get better? We are always looking for the sure thing and failing to try and develop our own option. 

 

I also think the Flames will go into the season thinking their goaltending is okay but that's a big mistake.  Goaltending arguably let the team down last season.

 

I like Rittich as a backup as well.  I think he's the real deal backup.  Not sure about starter status yet.

 

Gillies has the tools and the size.  Just needs the brains. He just doesn't anticipate well.  Doesn't have sixth sense.  Relys simply on being big.  Can't do that alone in the NHL.

 

And Smith is past his best before date.  He's trending sub-.900% sv.  And at his age he needs to rest lots between games.  Probably shouldnt play more than 35 games.

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36 minutes ago, The_People1 said:

 

I also think the Flames will go into the season thinking their goaltending is okay but that's a big mistake.  Goaltending arguably let the team down last season.

 

I like Rittich as a backup as well.  I think he's the real deal backup.  Not sure about starter status yet.

 

Gillies has the tools and the size.  Just needs the brains. He just doesn't anticipate well.  Doesn't have sixth sense.  Relys simply on being big.  Can't do that alone in the NHL.

 

And Smith is past his best before date.  He's trending sub-.900% sv.  And at his age he needs to rest lots between games.  Probably shouldnt play more than 35 games.


Barring a big curve ball Smith is the starter next season. He struggled after his injury, but he was great before that. And it wasn't a blip, we saw the same in Arizona. 

 

But you can bank on an injury at some point. And it is certainly possible Smith falls off a cliff. We need a 1B that can be the guy for 30 to 35 games. Preferably someone young enough to mature into the starter the following season. I don't think Gilles or Rittich is that guy. 

 

I don't see Rittich as a great NHL goalie. He is smart and economical, but he lacks the ability to be a long term NHLer. Gilles has a better skill set, I just don't know if he has the confidence needed to put it together. Outside of a decent AHL season before his call up this year, he has struggled since going pro. 

 

I won't be shocked if the Flames move one or more of these guys and look for an upgrade for Smiths 1B. I know popular opinion is to let these guys battle it out for the back-up spot, but given their inability to carry the ball this season I think it's possible they have lost their chance. 

 

Probably not given the lack of options, limited assets to trade, and other roster priorities. But still a reasonable possibility. 

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Gillies has had issues with mental lapses going back to his days in college. I was hoping that he would grow out of it, but so far he hasn't. The physical tools are all there, but he just can't put it all together for full 60 mins on a consistent basis.

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22 minutes ago, JTech780 said:

Gillies has had issues with mental lapses going back to his days in college. I was hoping that he would grow out of it, but so far he hasn't. The physical tools are all there, but he just can't put it all together for full 60 mins on a consistent basis.

 

Agreed. And I don't think Rittich has the athletic ability to be a number 1. Which is why I am fine if the Flames want to start fresh at the BU position this season. 

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7 hours ago, The_People1 said:

 

I also think the Flames will go into the season thinking their goaltending is okay but that's a big mistake.  Goaltending arguably let the team down last season.

 

I like Rittich as a backup as well.  I think he's the real deal backup.  Not sure about starter status yet.

 

Gillies has the tools and the size.  Just needs the brains. He just doesn't anticipate well.  Doesn't have sixth sense.  Relys simply on being big.  Can't do that alone in the NHL.

 

And Smith is past his best before date.  He's trending sub-.900% sv.  And at his age he needs to rest lots between games.  Probably shouldnt play more than 35 games.

Brutal assessment.  If it makes you sleep better believing that crap, fine, but REALLY?  Let's see, Smith was an All-star last year and easily top 5 in the league for over half the season... then over-use and injuries....  Gillies, let's see, I guess you forgot, or never saw his amazing behind-the-back, back-hand save from last year(?), one of the best NHL saves of the year?  And all of a sudden he doesn't have brains, doesn't anticipate, no sixth sense, simply stands there being BIG.... yeah, I guess he suddenly lost everything that he had which carried his team to a championship with him as all-tournament all star?  C'mon, give your head a shake.  How do you expect the team to ever get better when you buy in to that surficial, scapegoating garbage?  The team did have issues, they are slowly being addressed.  So far, so good.  Let's wait and see what else comes down the pipe  before we crucify management and players, can we?

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6 hours ago, JTech780 said:

Gillies has had issues with mental lapses going back to his days in college. I was hoping that he would grow out of it, but so far he hasn't. The physical tools are all there, but he just can't put it all together for full 60 mins on a consistent basis.

What in the heck are you talking about?  Do you just make things up?  Yeah, he was terrible in college, is that your line?  Garbage, lies, slanderous.  

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There are a few good points as of late through this thread, but I noticed an interesting commonality and connected it with the Sutter days and early...

 

first, this team has always been great at drafting and developing Defense, that’s our strength...what we have sucked at is drafting and developing Goalies, and pretty mush ok on forwards, though as of late we have become a bit better on the front line for drafting, though I would argue not so good with developing them.

 

anyway, the point of the matter is, our strength has always been defense, so we should do what many long term succeful teams do (Chi, Det, Pits etc) trade our strengths, the few times we did our team was amazing 2004 was a great example.

 

we traded for Kipper, though not from our strengths because we had other assets at that time, but the point is, he’s arguably the best goalie we ever had here, an unknown, every known goalie we have had here has been a huge disappointment so the smart play is trade from strengths/assets we have to get properly scouted and developed areas of weakness...we need to look at teams that have had solid history of goalie drafting and more importantly development...

 

same idea for forwards, but I thing the idea is there.  All this said, it’s in line with the BUrke comments, I’m of the thought process, the ownership may be at odds with Burke assessment which in my opinion is spot on, and that’s probably why Burke is leaving, frustrated with a group not open to change or only 1/2 committed to change that is need.

 

i guess we shall see how it unfolds over the next few months.  

 

Least coaching seems to be fixed, and if I were BT I’d hold off on 

major player moves this season, less older players for draft picks.  Yes I’m still of the thought, and have always been a huge fan, but Mark needs to go now before his skills slip more, there is about a 1-2 year window here to get top value for him before we end up with an Iggy return smart play is to move him now...also get rid of some players like Brewer and Staj who don’t fit our style now, it’s obvious they just don’t fit here.

 

i think the combo of the new coaching and the moving of older and players who just are not fitting in would greatly change this 

 

 

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