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1 hour ago, cccsberg said:

What in the heck are you talking about?  Do you just make things up?  Yeah, he was terrible in college, is that your line?  Garbage, lies, slanderous.  

 

The book on Gillies is that he has all the tools, but he is prone to giving up soft goals. He put up great numbers in college no doubt and he did win a championship in college, he did play on an extreme defensive team in Providence, his numbers were good but lots of goalies put up good numbers in college, his teammate Nick Ellis put up similar numbers to Gillies and he just retired from hockey because he wasn't going to get another pro contract. 

 

 

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13 minutes ago, JTech780 said:

 

The book on Gillies is that he has all the tools, but he is prone to giving up soft goals. He put up great numbers in college no doubt and he did win a championship in college, he did play on an extreme defensive team in Providence, his numbers were good but lots of goalies put up good numbers in college, his teammate Nick Ellis put up similar numbers to Gillies and he just retired from hockey because he wasn't going to get another pro contract. 

 

 

 

To be fair, Gilles did it in his first three years while Ellis only did as a senior. Gilles also put up respectable numbers as a pro and is trending up. I agree with you that Gilles may not have it between the ears to be an NHL starter, but the jury is out. 

 

However, a bit more time in the AHL is probably a good thing for Gilles. If he can take it another level in the AHL maybe we have something. If not, then at least we know. 

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13 hours ago, kehatch said:

 

Maybe Jankowski takes a big step. Maybe Smith rebounds. Maybe Gilles or Rittich shows starter potential. But we shouldn't be starting a season with a bunch of big maybes. Not with where we are. 

 

 

 

Why?

I think we've lost the big picture here. Flames are entering their 6th seasons since the rebuild, made the playoffs twice, should have a playoff team on paper, and have have many young players with good uspdie to their games ready for a shot. 

 

Sure, you'd love a sure thing in net, but I think overal this team is where it should be. I really think the flames are on the cusp of moving into a really solid and consistent contender franchise but in order to do that it's going to be by devoroping the jankowskis, bennetts, dubes, mangiapanes etc. 

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19 minutes ago, kehatch said:

 

To be fair, Gilles did it in his first three years while Ellis only did as a senior. Gilles also put up respectable numbers as a pro and is trending up. I agree with you that Gilles may not have it between the ears to be an NHL starter, but the jury is out. 

 

However, a bit more time in the AHL is probably a good thing for Gilles. If he can take it another level in the AHL maybe we have something. If not, then at least we know. 

 

Fair enough, I may have went a little far to try and prove my point.

 

I would like to see him put up better than average numbers in the AHL and show some consistency in that league before I say that he is ready for NHL duty. 

 

Rittich has done that and IMO showed better at the NHL level, so as is I would give him the edge for the back up job.

 

I for one am in favour of going after Grubauer. He has put up solid numbers at every level. He has had a rough go of it in the playoffs, but that is in 3 career starts and 1 relief game over 3 seasons. The book on Fleury for awhile was that he wasn't a big game pressure goalie who couldn't get it done in the playoffs, I think it's safe to say he is over that. Grubauer is the right age and shouldn't cost that much.

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13 hours ago, kehatch said:

 

As others have said, Smith was bad down the stretch. He is 36 and on the final year of his contract. I don't like Rittich's game. I think he is a fine back up but I don't think he will ever be a starter. I do like Gilles game, but he has never really bounced back since his surgery. 

 

At centre we have Monahan, Backlund, Jankowski. That doesn't compare well to a majority of the top teams in the league. And we are an injury away from serious trouble. 

 

Maybe Jankowski takes a big step. Maybe Smith rebounds. Maybe Gilles or Rittich shows starter potential. But we shouldn't be starting a season with a bunch of big maybes. Not with where we are. 

 

That said, we have limited assets to do a lot of fixing so we probably don't have a choice. 

Perhaps that is the bigger question, where are we as a team exactly ? We have Smith for another season and IMO need to use tis season wisely. I also see Rittich as a back up and possibly a very good one. Let him back up Smith and gain the required experience. Let Gilles and Parsons challenge each other in Stockton enhancing the possibilities of which one could be our Regular after Smith.

Down the middle after the 3 you mention, the big question is in an injury situation to any of these 3 who gain move up and what is our depth. Should the rumors prevail we might see Derek Ryan C, then we have Shore, Lazar, Gawdin and Dube. I think we will be fine at C for awhile. Even Bennett could move over to cover a C need short term.

My take is should BT obtain the right two RWers in bring in our LW side will be strong with Gaudreau, Tkachuk, Bennett and Ferland with solid depth within the farm. Now who will these two RW players be and what will it take to get them ? This is where I would be focused on as we discuss using assets or money to obtain certain players.

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21 minutes ago, JTech780 said:

 

Fair enough, I may have went a little far to try and prove my point.

 

I would like to see him put up better than average numbers in the AHL and show some consistency in that league before I say that he is ready for NHL duty. 

 

Rittich has done that and IMO showed better at the NHL level, so as is I would give him the edge for the back up job.

 

I for one am in favour of going after Grubauer. He has put up solid numbers at every level. He has had a rough go of it in the playoffs, but that is in 3 career starts and 1 relief game over 3 seasons. The book on Fleury for awhile was that he wasn't a big game pressure goalie who couldn't get it done in the playoffs, I think it's safe to say he is over that. Grubauer is the right age and shouldn't cost that much.

I saw a rumour that WSH wants a late first and prospect for Grubauer, or 2 2nds. 

 

Another name and that’s interesting is Jarry in Pittsburgh IMO he’s an upgrade on Rittich and Gillies. Also with expansion looming Pittsburgh won’t be able to protect him

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2 hours ago, cccsberg said:

Brutal assessment.  If it makes you sleep better believing that crap, fine, but REALLY?  Let's see, Smith was an All-star last year and easily top 5 in the league for over half the season... then over-use and injuries....  Gillies, let's see, I guess you forgot, or never saw his amazing behind-the-back, back-hand save from last year(?), one of the best NHL saves of the year?  And all of a sudden he doesn't have brains, doesn't anticipate, no sixth sense, simply stands there being BIG.... yeah, I guess he suddenly lost everything that he had which carried his team to a championship with him as all-tournament all star?  C'mon, give your head a shake.  How do you expect the team to ever get better when you buy in to that surficial, scapegoating garbage?  The team did have issues, they are slowly being addressed.  So far, so good.  Let's wait and see what else comes down the pipe  before we crucify management and players, can we?

 

Brutally honest, yes.  It's evident you are cherry picking periods of greatness to make your point but I'm looking at the entire picture and judging them on their full season.

 

My main point is still this, our rivals don't have these kinds of question marks in regards to goaltending, again, arguably the most important position on the team.  We are like a really good NFL team that's missing a QB.  

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40 minutes ago, The_People1 said:

 

Brutally honest, yes.  It's evident you are cherry picking periods of greatness to make your point but I'm looking at the entire picture and judging them on their full season.

 

My main point is still this, our rivals don't have these kinds of question marks in regards to goaltending, again, arguably the most important position on the team.  We are like a really good NFL team that's missing a QB.  

Every team has these question marks, you need to take a serious look around. I don't see why we should be so afraid to try and advance Rittich so he gets the experience. If Smith does go down to injury again maybe then look around. If you think by adding another goalie to the mix to ensure any kind of certainy I don't think it works that way.

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1 hour ago, cross16 said:

 

Why?

I think we've lost the big picture here. Flames are entering their 6th seasons since the rebuild, made the playoffs twice, should have a playoff team on paper, and have have many young players with good uspdie to their games ready for a shot. 

 

Sure, you'd love a sure thing in net, but I think overal this team is where it should be. I really think the flames are on the cusp of moving into a really solid and consistent contender franchise but in order to do that it's going to be by devoroping the jankowskis, bennetts, dubes, mangiapanes etc. 

 

The Flames best players are at the top of their game. Going into next season with questionable goal tending and a lack of forward depth would be a poor approach imo. 

 

Gilles can develop fine in the A. There is plenty of opportunity for the kid skaters to make the team and develop give the number of players gone this season. Bringing in a decent backup with starter potential and adding forward depth doesn't derail development. 

 

Missing the playoffs with bad goal tending and a lack of forward depth means a management change, a lost year, and a bad development environment. Not to mention this is Smiths last season so unless the Flames see Rittich as a future starter having him back up is a waste beyond this season. 

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6 minutes ago, kehatch said:

 

The Flames best players are at the top of their game. Going into next season with questionable goal tending and a lack of forward depth would be a poor approach imo. 

 

Gilles can develop fine in the A. There is plenty of opportunity for the kid skaters to make the team and develop give the number of players gone this season. Bringing in a decent backup with starter potential and adding forward depth doesn't derail development. 

 

Missing the playoffs with bad goal tending and a lack of forward depth means a management change, a lost year, and a bad development environment. Not to mention this is Smiths last season so unless the Flames see Rittich as a future starter having him back up is a waste beyond this season. 

I'm personally not on bit worried about our goaltending at the moment.

Smith showed where his game was at before he went down . He came back and wasn't 100%, not unusual for coming off an injury , it wasnt realistic to expect him to be a game stealer right away , but unfortunately we needed him to 

Rittich was used very sparingly , despite the fact he showed well.. then suddenly he's driving the bus.. not realistic to expect him to not have a growth pain. In most games he gave us a chance to win .. he just wasn't stealing them

Plus the fact its Smith's last year of his contract , is not to say its his last year .. if he continues like we know he can , there's no reason he cant continue.. but that's a discussion for next year 

 

we have to stop writing off goalies that don't burst on the scene like Kipper .. if he had been average from day one , I'd be concerned, but he showed what he CAN do. We need to ride it out and develop.  I'm all for improving , but Cross is right .. there are no quick fixes there 

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59 minutes ago, phoenix66 said:

I'm personally not on bit worried about our goaltending at the moment.

Smith showed where his game was at before he went down . He came back and wasn't 100%, not unusual for coming off an injury , it wasnt realistic to expect him to be a game stealer right away , but unfortunately we needed him to 

Rittich was used very sparingly , despite the fact he showed well.. then suddenly he's driving the bus.. not realistic to expect him to not have a growth pain. In most games he gave us a chance to win .. he just wasn't stealing them

Plus the fact its Smith's last year of his contract , is not to say its his last year .. if he continues like we know he can , there's no reason he cant continue.. but that's a discussion for next year 

 

we have to stop writing off goalies that don't burst on the scene like Kipper .. if he had been average from day one , I'd be concerned, but he showed what he CAN do. We need to ride it out and develop.  I'm all for improving , but Cross is right .. there are no quick fixes there 

All one has to do and look at MON with the season Price has had and they bring back Niemi. I think some are over thinking our Goalie situation.

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1 hour ago, phoenix66 said:

I'm personally not on bit worried about our goaltending at the moment.

Smith showed where his game was at before he went down . He came back and wasn't 100%, not unusual for coming off an injury , it wasnt realistic to expect him to be a game stealer right away , but unfortunately we needed him to 

Rittich was used very sparingly , despite the fact he showed well.. then suddenly he's driving the bus.. not realistic to expect him to not have a growth pain. In most games he gave us a chance to win .. he just wasn't stealing them

Plus the fact its Smith's last year of his contract , is not to say its his last year .. if he continues like we know he can , there's no reason he cant continue.. but that's a discussion for next year 

 

we have to stop writing off goalies that don't burst on the scene like Kipper .. if he had been average from day one , I'd be concerned, but he showed what he CAN do. We need to ride it out and develop.  I'm all for improving , but Cross is right .. there are no quick fixes there 

 

Your own post suggest we should be worried. Smith hasn't had a full healthy season in awhile and Rittich isn't comfortable driving the bus.

 

Smith will be 37 this year. This is his last year. 

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5 minutes ago, kehatch said:

 

Your own post suggest we should be worried. Smith hasn't had a full healthy season in awhile and Rittich isn't comfortable driving the bus.

 

Smith will be 37 this year. This is his last year. 

not at all

Injury prone starters reads like a who's who of stars around the league.. Bishop, MAF, Quick, Murray, Crawford, Price, Gibson.. etc..has nothing to do with his age.

There are plenty of aging goalies who are not close to done yet .. Rinne, Henrik,  to name a couple .. you just cant play them 70 games a year .. thats not even good for younger ones 

If GG had done his job and played Riittich in more games that made sense, he'd have been ready . Its no different that Jankowski not being accustomed to an 82 game schedule.

now hes tasted it and felt it. its all about evolution .. I have no fears that Rittich can handle a more steady workload, and then if / when Smith pulls a hammy again he'll be ready .. this season was us dropping the ball on Rittich ,not the other way around 

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11 hours ago, kehatch said:

 

Agreed. And I don't think Rittich has the athletic ability to be a number 1. Which is why I am fine if the Flames want to start fresh at the BU position this season. 

 

I found Rittich to be more composed compared to Gillies. Gillies is bigger but seems to have more holes to his game. For a big guy, you’d want him to cover more net. Maybe that’s coaching. 

 

I was more unsure what the Flames would get out of Gillies than Rittich when ever they got the starts. 

 

Its funny how we all see things differently. 

 

Its also hard to judge when the team all got on board of the sinking ship.

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4 minutes ago, phoenix66 said:

not at all

Injury prone starters reads like a who's who of stars around the league.. Bishop, MAF, Quick, Murray, Crawford, Price, Gibson.. etc..has nothing to do with his age.

There are plenty of aging goalies who are not close to done yet .. Rinne, Henrik,  to name a couple .. you just cant play them 70 games a year .. thats not even good for younger ones 

If GG had done his job and played Riittich in more games that made sense, he'd have been ready . Its no different that Jankowski not being accustomed to an 82 game schedule.

now hes tasted it and felt it. its all about evolution .. I have no fears that Rittich can handle a more steady workload, and then if / when Smith pulls a hammy again he'll be ready .. this season was us dropping the ball on Rittich ,not the other way around 

 

Smith hasn't had a healthy season since he joined the NHL and he will turn 37 next season.  This isn't simply a matter of him being overplayed.  

 

Statistically speaking Rittich was one of the worst back-ups in the league last season.  Gilles was even worse.  When your starter is 36, on the last season of a contract, and has a long history of injury you probably want someone backing him up that wasn't one of the worst back-ups in the league.  I don't think that is an unreasonable expectation. 

 

I understand the hope is Rittich will be better next season.  But he isn't a spring chicken.  He will be 26 to start the season.  It is pretty unusual you see someone like that break into the league as a quality goalie at that age.  This is all very reminiscent of the Kari Ramo discussion not that long ago.

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21 minutes ago, kehatch said:

 

Smith hasn't had a healthy season since he joined the NHL and he will turn 37 next season.  This isn't simply a matter of him being overplayed.  

 

Statistically speaking Rittich was one of the worst back-ups in the league last season.  Gilles was even worse.  When your starter is 36, on the last season of a contract, and has a long history of injury you probably want someone backing him up that wasn't one of the worst back-ups in the league.  I don't think that is an unreasonable expectation. 

 

I understand the hope is Rittich will be better next season.  But he isn't a spring chicken.  He will be 26 to start the season.  It is pretty unusual you see someone like that break into the league as a quality goalie at that age.  This is all very reminiscent of the Kari Ramo discussion not that long ago.

 

Rittich was fine early on.  He should have been getting way more starts then.  The coach decided that B2B games was the way to go, and the team paid for it in Smith's injury.

 

My preference would be to bring in a guy like Grubauer right now.  Let him displace Smith to the point where we could either trade Smith at TDL or not be worried by keeping him through to the playoffs.  That gives us time to see what Gillies will become.  Can always bring him up during the year and scratch Smith.  Or you trade Smith and replace him with Rittich as the backup.

 

Crazy ideas, I know.  Expecting a 37 goalie to pave the way for our goalie prospects is as well.  The timing has to be perfect.

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22 minutes ago, kehatch said:

 

Smith hasn't had a healthy season since he joined the NHL and he will turn 37 next season.  This isn't simply a matter of him being overplayed.  

 

Statistically speaking Rittich was one of the worst back-ups in the league last season.  Gilles was even worse.  When your starter is 36, on the last season of a contract, and has a long history of injury you probably want someone backing him up that wasn't one of the worst back-ups in the league.  I don't think that is an unreasonable expectation. 

 

I understand the hope is Rittich will be better next season.  But he isn't a spring chicken.  He will be 26 to start the season.  It is pretty unusual you see someone like that break into the league as a quality goalie at that age.  This is all very reminiscent of the Kari Ramo discussion not that long ago.

Rittich can be just fine. I think the stats are deceiving because you have to win and lose as a team and we were awful all over the place.

When GG withheld beer, threw a stick, his motivational bag of tricks ran dry.

It's unfortunate that this team needs gimmicks to get motivated...

 

But I think you're under-selling Rittich a bit. I think his best asset is his fundamentals. Europe seems awesome at drilling in the basics.

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4 minutes ago, conundrumed said:

Rittich can be just fine. I think the stats are deceiving because you have to win and lose as a team and we were awful all over the place.

When GG withheld beer, threw a stick, his motivational bag of tricks ran dry.

It's unfortunate that this team needs gimmicks to get motivated...

 

But I think you're under-selling Rittich a bit. I think his best asset is his fundamentals. Europe seems awesome at drilling in the basics.

 

Like I said above, sounds just like the Ramo discussion.  Goalies often look great in small and controlled spurts.  We saw it with Ramo.  We saw it with Ortio.  We saw it with Johnson.  Expecting a mid 20's guy to be significantly different this season vs last season might be expecting too much.  And Rittich showed he couldn't carry the mail when Smith went down.  

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33 minutes ago, kehatch said:

 

Smith hasn't had a healthy season since he joined the NHL and he will turn 37 next season.  This isn't simply a matter of him being overplayed.  

 

Statistically speaking Rittich was one of the worst back-ups in the league last season.  Gilles was even worse.  When your starter is 36, on the last season of a contract, and has a long history of injury you probably want someone backing him up that wasn't one of the worst back-ups in the league.  I don't think that is an unreasonable expectation. 

 

I understand the hope is Rittich will be better next season.  But he isn't a spring chicken.  He will be 26 to start the season.  It is pretty unusual you see someone like that break into the league as a quality goalie at that age.  This is all very reminiscent of the Kari Ramo discussion not that long ago.

still not worried .. not even slightly 

He's had 2 seasons since he started with Arizona that he has played less than 55 games.. and that is about what he should and should have been playing 

Every team in the league is an injury away from disaster ..if Jonathan Quick doesn't miss half the season , suddenly GG is getting fired for 2 years missed playoffs, not just 1.

If it happens , you deal with it . there are plenty of stop gap goalies available if its truly necessary 

but we cant sit here and say he's done after this season is my main point.. we don't know that , some may wish it but we don't know it 

 

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2 minutes ago, kehatch said:

 

  And Rittich showed he couldn't carry the mail when Smith went down.  

and lord knows the team was playing lights out in front of him  right ?

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1 minute ago, kehatch said:

 

Like I said above, sounds just like the Ramo discussion.  Goalies often look great in small and controlled spurts.  We saw it with Ramo.  We saw it with Ortio.  We saw it with Johnson.  Expecting a mid 20's guy to be significantly different this season vs last season might be expecting too much.  And Rittich showed he couldn't carry the mail when Smith went down.  

Another year, more experience and the opportunity to expand on what he has learned. Sounds like a decent way to develop your own talent.

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26 minutes ago, phoenix66 said:

and lord knows the team was playing lights out in front of him  right ?

 

Put this another way.  If Rittich was a free agent, or on another team, would you be targeting him to back up Smith?  My guess is not a single person here would, and if they did the forum would dead against it.  Why?  Because he doesn't have a lot of upside.  He is a mid 20s European UFA signing with a rough season under his belt. 

 

But because we saw him play a handful of games with the red C where he looked good (and a bunch more where he didn't) we shouldn't be in the market to look for an upgrade?  Smith has an end date and is an injury risk.  If Treliving isn't looking at the options available then he isn't doing his job.  He may not find a better option in his price range, but sports fan's ability to exclude all options but the one in front of them is astounding at times.  

 

Despite a strong start we finished near the bottom in goal tending again last year.  Of course we should be looking for an upgrade.  

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6 minutes ago, kehatch said:

 

But because we saw him play a handful of games with the red C where he looked good we shouldn't be in the market to look for an upgrade?  Smith has an end date and is an injury risk.  If Treliving isn't looking at the options available then he isn't doing his job.  He may not find a better option in his price range, but sports fan's ability to exclude all options but the one in front of them is astounding at times. 

 

There's the key.  Obviously, he is looking to improve.  You have to think he's looking at the playoff team (others too) as potential trade partners.  Or pending UFA's.  Not many goalies get there that are worth it.  

 

BT is not going to wait till Smith's last day under contract to find the next one.  In fact, if we don;t have a guy already playing close to 40 games this year, we don't have a starter for next year.  That's how we ended up with the short-term solutions of Smith and Elliott.  

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7 minutes ago, kehatch said:

 

Put this another way.  If Rittich was a free agent, or on another team, would you be targeting him to back up Smith?  My guess is not a single person here would, and if they did the forum would dead against it.  Why?  Because he doesn't have a lot of upside.  He is a mid 20s European UFA signing with a rough season under his belt. 

 

But because we saw him play a handful of games with the red C where he looked good (and a bunch more where he didn't) we shouldn't be in the market to look for an upgrade?  Smith has an end date and is an injury risk.  If Treliving isn't looking at the options available then he isn't doing his job.  He may not find a better option in his price range, but sports fan's ability to exclude all options but the one in front of them is astounding at times.  

 

Despite a strong start we finished near the bottom in goal tending again last year.  Of course we should be looking for an upgrade.  

There is nothing wrong with staying with a chosen path for your prospects either. Your thinking isn't wrong if you see that situation leading to a SC this coming season which many of us do not. I don't think GG managed the goalie starts particularly well and the injury situation lead to a rush in the number of starts that Rittich received but now he has those experiences both good and bad, that is how you best learn.

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27 minutes ago, kehatch said:

 

Put this another way.  If Rittich was a free agent, or on another team, would you be targeting him to back up Smith?  My guess is not a single person here would, and if they did the forum would dead against it.  Why?  Because he doesn't have a lot of upside.  He is a mid 20s European UFA signing with a rough season under his belt. 

 

But because we saw him play a handful of games with the red C where he looked good (and a bunch more where he didn't) we shouldn't be in the market to look for an upgrade?  Smith has an end date and is an injury risk.  If Treliving isn't looking at the options available then he isn't doing his job.  He may not find a better option in his price range, but sports fan's ability to exclude all options but the one in front of them is astounding at times.  

 

Despite a strong start we finished near the bottom in goal tending again last year.  Of course we should be looking for an upgrade.  

 

Goalies can do a lot but also can only do it for so long if a team is poor at defending. We finished near the bottom for a lot of reasons, not just goaltending. 

 

We got great goaltending at the start and still ended up with a horrible 1st 15-20 games. Then he saved our season and was a huge reason we could even sniff at the playoffs later in the season. 

 

Damned if you do and definitely more damned if you don’t.

 

but goaltending was supposed to put us over the edge last year and for about half a year of really good goaltending, it still barely got the job done.

 

i think that the type of chances we give up make it really hard on goalies. In the long run that can play mentally on them just as much as physically. Gotta be hard for goalies because they have to be so mentally tough.

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