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Realistic Trade suggestions for improvement

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1 hour ago, cross16 said:

 

This is potentially true, but also worth nothing that while he had initial success, the PP was terrible with Hamilton on it too. He provided an option right away but eventually that fizzled and towrads the end of the season Hamilton did not have an impact on the PP. 

 

That's not blaming Hamilton but I actually don't think the PP is where the Flames will miss him at all, they'll miss him 5 on 5 where it is my opinion he was a top pairing dman. It's a huge hole to fill and i'm of the opinion they don't have the skills internally to do it. Going to need to be by committee and that's sometimes a worrisome idea. 

 

Just to pint out, Hanifin had 1.07 P/60 at 5v5, Hamilton was at 1.14 P/60, production wise it isn't much of a drop off.

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Would Jankowski and Stone be enough to get Krejci out of Boston?

 

Boston has been rumoured to be in on Tavares, but they would need to dump some salary to get him. They have also been rumoured to be testing the market for Krejci, but he carries a $7.25m cap hit for the next 3 years. That's a big number for a number 2 center. I think he would be an amazing fit for this team. He is a RHS C, he's won a Cup and been to the Final another time after that. He can play in any situation 5v5, PP, PK, OT. He would slot Backlund in the 3rd line roll, giving us an enviable center core.

 

Of the guys rumoured to be available I think Krejci is number 1 one my list, just checks too many boxes for our team.

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32 minutes ago, travel_dude said:

 

Gio-Hammy "developed" into an elite pair.  They didn't become that way overnight.

 

It didn't take long. Hamilton struggled, as many do, the first month or 2 but they took off after that. Got better as they went, but even in that first season they wre better than Gio-Brodie were after multple years together. 

While it is possible they become better, I would suggest history shows us its pretty unlikely but we shall see. I won't bank it however. 

 

23 minutes ago, JTech780 said:

 

Just to pint out, Hanifin had 1.07 P/60 at 5v5, Hamilton was at 1.14 P/60, production wise it isn't much of a drop off.

 

Ya production wasn't really my concern there. IMO, what made Hamilton - Gio elite was not their production it was their ability to consistently turn the play the other way irregardless of who they were playing against, but many times against high end competition AND then on top of that produce quality chances and points. 

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2 hours ago, The_People1 said:

 

I get Andersson still has lots to learn but I don't like how we don't want to challenge young kids to bigger roles.  He may flop but he may actually do well.

 

Maybe Gio-Brodie is the top pair.  After that, whoever out of Hanifin-Andersson vs Kulak-Hamonic plays better that night gets to play more minutes.  So we don't have a defined second pairing. It's defending by committee.

 

Also worth noting is that BP's specialty in Carolina is working with young D.  He could be what gets Andersson to the next level.

I have no doubt that he will shine but I also think it's premature to pencil him in. Brodie will be on a short leash, if he doesn't pick his game up with Gio I could see them trying Ras up there with him, given BP's history with young D and Huskas familiarity with the kids in Stockton I'm hoping some kids get a real opportunity this season to be more then just a spot holder for the vets, something GG always seemed reluctant to do (See Wotherspoon)

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14 minutes ago, cross16 said:

 

It didn't take long. Hamilton struggled, as many do, the first month or 2 but they took off after that. Got better as they went, but even in that first season they wre better than Gio-Brodie were after multple years together. 

While it is possible they become better, I would suggest history shows us its pretty unlikely but we shall see. I won't bank it however. 

 

 

Ya production wasn't really my concern there. IMO, what made Hamilton - Gio elite was not their production it was their ability to consistently turn the play the other way irregardless of who they were playing against, but many times against high end competition AND then on top of that produce quality chances and points. 

 

I could be reading it wrong or misunderstanding, but on corsica.hockey they have Hamilton CF% adjusted for quality of competition at 50% and Hanifin is at 49.46% so again that's not a huge drop off. 

 

Now I should state that my interest in analytics is starting wane, mostly because of how the dependence on analytics in baseball has all but ruined the game IMO, and I can see the same thing happening in hockey.

 

IMO Hamilton's impact on the game outside of the offensive zone is being greatly exaggerated by the analytics community. The eye test just doesn't match up with what the analytics are saying. For Hamilton is a guy who is lazy on defense, makes poor choices in his own zone and is poor positionally, he also doesn't use his size at all. I could be wrong but I don't think we will miss hin all that much next year.

 

Edit:

I should add that I can say a lot of the same thing about Brodie. That being said I am not ready to move Brodie unless another top 4 option comes in return. I am not ready to put Andersson in the top 4 after 10 NHL games that came at the end of the year when the games didn't matter. 

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10 minutes ago, JTech780 said:

 

I could be reading it wrong or misunderstanding, but on corsica.hockey they have Hamilton CF% adjusted for quality of competition at 50% and Hanifin is at 49.46% so again that's not a huge drop off. 

 

 

That would be a flawed way to look at it IMO for 2 reasons. 1 it ignores that Hanifin was heavily slanted in terms of Ozone starts (Hamilton 10% less O-zone starts) and it's not an equal conclusion. Hamilton drawing tougher match-ups and starting in the D zone more frequently you would expect a lower Corsi, so it's not comparing apples to apples so you can't really reach that conclusion, that the gap is small, IMO. 

 

Either way this is in no way to put down Hanifin so I want to stress that. I understand that I am on a different level when it comes to Hamilton and that's all this is. I've said many times I think Hamilton is a top 15 blue liner in the game (received Norris votes again this year) and while Hanifin might get there, i'm skeptical. My "they will miss Hamilton 5 on 5" opinion is driven more from what I think of Hamilton then anything else, even though I do agree that the analytics community is being a little harsh in their analysis on this trade. 

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40 minutes ago, JTech780 said:

Would Jankowski and Stone be enough to get Krejci out of Boston?

 

Boston has been rumoured to be in on Tavares, but they would need to dump some salary to get him. They have also been rumoured to be testing the market for Krejci, but he carries a $7.25m cap hit for the next 3 years. That's a big number for a number 2 center. I think he would be an amazing fit for this team. He is a RHS C, he's won a Cup and been to the Final another time after that. He can play in any situation 5v5, PP, PK, OT. He would slot Backlund in the 3rd line roll, giving us an enviable center core.

 

Of the guys rumoured to be available I think Krejci is number 1 one my list, just checks too many boxes for our team.

 

Krejci is too expensive and would be our second line C behind Monahan.  So a hard no for me. 

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I might be out to lunch, it is lunch time here, but I saw us as a slow transition team. That was part of our possession game. “Us having the puck is better than them.” But I feel like it was very calculated and so it never really naturalized for the players. When it isn’t natural you have second guessing .

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18 minutes ago, The_People1 said:

 

Krejci is too expensive and would be our second line C behind Monahan.  So a hard no for me. 

 

He is expensive and a bit over paid no doubt. That being said he is an upgrade on our current 2nd line C. We have the cap space to make it work so I don't see the cap implications affecting us all that much. The fact that he does come with a high cap hit should allow us to get him a bit of a discount.

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1 hour ago, The_People1 said:

 

Touche.

 

How about Brodie for David Savard straight up?

Eh, very lateral move. @ least with Brodie we have a good idea of what we're getting day to day if he's back with Gio.

 

Sounds like a trade for the sake of a trade if bored. No real gain & good chance of losing the trade.

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1 hour ago, Flyerfan52 said:

Eh, very lateral move. @ least with Brodie we have a good idea of what we're getting day to day if he's back with Gio.

 

Sounds like a trade for the sake of a trade if bored. No real gain & good chance of losing the trade.

 

Is it really lateral though?  

 

We give up speed and elite puck moving for size, grit, and stud shutdown defending.  Its a polar opposite in terms of the hockey played.  

 

I'm wondering do the BJs want to have a puck moving D in an otherwise slow steady group of D?  Meanwhile, the Flames can move the puck with Giordano, Hanifin, and I would even graduate Kulak into that category.  We also have Andersson, not the best skater but decent speed and smarts.

 

Hamonic is the only pure shut down guy.  We could use a guy like Savard.

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1 hour ago, JTech780 said:

 

He is expensive and a bit over paid no doubt. That being said he is an upgrade on our current 2nd line C. We have the cap space to make it work so I don't see the cap implications affecting us all that much. The fact that he does come with a high cap hit should allow us to get him a bit of a discount.

 

He's 32 coming off a 44-point season.  Same points as Lindholm.

 

He's a trap we should avoid actually.  He's someone I hope the Oilers trade the farm for and then he turns into a has been.  He's trending that way.

 

 

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11 minutes ago, The_People1 said:

 

He's 32 coming off a 44-point season.  Same points as Lindholm.

 

He's a trap we should avoid actually.  He's someone I hope the Oilers trade the farm for and then he turns into a has been.  He's trending that way.

 

 

 

To be fair those 44 points came in 64 games, which works out to be 56 points over 82 games. He has stayed pretty consistent as far as production and games played through his career.

 

I think this team could use some veteran leadership in their top 9 to help augment all the youth we have. A guy like Krejci that can play, produce and has won a Cup could go a long way in helping this team learn how to win and play the right way.

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DeVante Smith-Pelley signed 1x$1 to stay in Washington, there goes one guys that some people were hoping to get. He probably would have gotten more on the open market, but that is about the max I would have given him too.

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50 minutes ago, The_People1 said:

 

Is it really lateral though?  

 

We give up speed and elite puck moving for size, grit, and stud shutdown defending.  Its a polar opposite in terms of the hockey played.  

 

I'm wondering do the BJs want to have a puck moving D in an otherwise slow steady group of D?  Meanwhile, the Flames can move the puck with Giordano, Hanifin, and I would even graduate Kulak into that category.  We also have Andersson, not the best skater but decent speed and smarts.

 

Hamonic is the only pure shut down guy.  We could use a guy like Savard.

Have you noticed the BJs have Wereski & Jones with Nutivaara adjusting to the NA game & ice size? B)

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11 minutes ago, Flyerfan52 said:

Have you noticed the BJs have Wereski & Jones with Nutivaara adjusting to the NA game & ice size? B)

 

They don't offer the same puck moving skills as Brodie though.  So, just wondering do they want that extra, or perhaps they are happy with what they already have?  I dunno, just making a suggestion that I think could benefit both teams.  

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45 minutes ago, JTech780 said:

DeVante Smith-Pelley signed 1x$1 to stay in Washington, there goes one guys that some people were hoping to get. He probably would have gotten more on the open market, but that is about the max I would have given him too.

 

I was hoping we could get him.  Too bad he's off the market now.

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I’d rather see us pay up and land Zucker than us sign a UFA like JVR, Neal or Perron

 

Whats the cost though if we take Ennis? I’d do Bennett and a prospect max, as Ennis really brings down the value MIN would receive in a Zucker deal IMO

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13 minutes ago, Thebrewcrew said:

I’d rather see us pay up and land Zucker than us sign a UFA like JVR, Neal or Perron

 

Whats the cost though if we take Ennis? I’d do Bennett and a prospect max, as Ennis really brings down the value MIN would receive in a Zucker deal IMO

I'm a big NO if it means Bennett...

 

Trading Sam will haunt us for years!

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5 hours ago, cross16 said:

 

That would be a flawed way to look at it IMO for 2 reasons. 1 it ignores that Hanifin was heavily slanted in terms of Ozone starts (Hamilton 10% less O-zone starts) and it's not an equal conclusion. Hamilton drawing tougher match-ups and starting in the D zone more frequently you would expect a lower Corsi, so it's not comparing apples to apples so you can't really reach that conclusion, that the gap is small, IMO. 

 

Either way this is in no way to put down Hanifin so I want to stress that. I understand that I am on a different level when it comes to Hamilton and that's all this is. I've said many times I think Hamilton is a top 15 blue liner in the game (received Norris votes again this year) and while Hanifin might get there, i'm skeptical. My "they will miss Hamilton 5 on 5" opinion is driven more from what I think of Hamilton then anything else, even though I do agree that the analytics community is being a little harsh in their analysis on this trade. 

 

And that's where we won't disagree, I can see your standpoint, and I am not saying Hamilton isn't a good player, but I don't think he is a top 15 defenseman in this league, offensively sure, but all around not at all. IMO he is terrible in the other two zones, I think Giordano covered a lot of his weaknesses. 

 

I am not saying that you are saying this, but a lot of people are really under rating Hanifin. You don't get to play 3 seasons in the NHL by the time you are 21 if you are a talented defenseman.  The biggest knock I keep hearing about Hanifin is that he doesn't make the best decisions with the puck, well he had 58 giveaways last year, and if my math is right (no guarantee it is) that is a rate of 2.34 giveaways per 60 minutes. Hamilton on the other hand had 72 give aways for a rate of 2.45 giveaways per 60 minutes. So I would say Hamilton was more likely to make a poor decision with the puck than Hanifin. 

 

Not to go on too big of a rant (and hopefully we start getting more Flames news, so I can rant about that instead), but I think that trade helps in the dressing, in the long run and without taking much of step back, if any, in the short run. All in all I am fairly confident that we are a better team today than before the trade.

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44 minutes ago, TrippinVdUb said:

I'm a big NO if it means Bennett...

 

Trading Sam will haunt us for years!

 

I would trade Bennett if it meant getting Zucker. Zucker is already the player we all hope that Bennett could be. I think we would all be thrilled if Bennett chipped in 33 goals and 64 points like Zucker did last year, the problem is Bennett hasn't come close to showing anything like that, could he get to those totals, absolutely, will he, I have no clue. I will take the sure thing in Zucker.

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2 minutes ago, JTech780 said:

 

I would trade Bennett if it meant getting Zucker. Zucker is already the player we all hope that Bennett could be. I think we would all be thrilled if Bennett chipped in 33 goals and 64 points like Zucker did last year, the problem is Bennett hasn't come close to showing anything like that, could he get to those totals, absolutely, will he, I have no clue. I will take the sure thing in Zucker.

Zucker is also 26 years old and just had his break out season, he was given a chance to develop at his own pace. Bennett just turned 22, he's struggled to find a consistent game but you know its there, experience and patients will pay dividends in the end. We aren't talking about Yakapov, who disappears entirely for stretches at a time and is one dimensional. Sam finds away to contribute and even when things aren't going his way and sticks with the process.  Again, I'm a big NO on trading him anytime soon!

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54 minutes ago, TrippinVdUb said:

I'm a big NO if it means Bennett...

 

Trading Sam will haunt us for years!

 

Bennett will end up being our next Martin St. Louis.

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11 minutes ago, JTech780 said:

The biggest knock I keep hearing about Hanifin is that he doesn't make the best decisions with the puck, well he had 58 giveaways last year, and if my math is right (no guarantee it is) that is a rate of 2.34 giveaways per 60 minutes. Hamilton on the other hand had 72 give aways for a rate of 2.45 giveaways per 60 minutes. So I would say Hamilton was more likely to make a poor decision with the puck than Hanifin. 

 

I actually think Hamilton is a good defender.  He gets stereotyped by the type of defensemen he is and from earlier performance in his younger days.  Where he hurt us the most was after he won the puck battles.  A lot of risky/dumb/dangerous passes.  Almost over confidence he can pull off magic.  

 

But from a pure shut down defending standpoint, he is actually okay.  Not elite but pretty okay.

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