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Realistic Trade suggestions for improvement

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5 minutes ago, The_People1 said:

If i'm not mistaken, Johnny was born in NJ and his dad still lives there.  Johnny grew up a Philly fan though and has hinted he'd love to go play there some day.  In other words, as soon as he's UFA, then he's going to Philly (or NJ to be closer to home).  Two teams now looking to make major moves.  NJ and Philly.  Is now the perfect time to sell high on Johnny and literally clean out NJ and Philly's prospect system?  

 

Chuck Fletcher has mentioned something like he'd "love to get 4 players who are 26 that we can sign long term to help us immediately and moving forward."  He's also said Carter Hart "could be a starter in the NHL some day".  He's crazy.  Hart is already a start but he won't give him full support.  He also said he thinks Joel Farabee is penciled in to play a year in the AHL, at least.  Fletcher also said "it's obvious we need help on D."  Fletcher seems to be saying he wants players in their mid-20s and not younger. 

 

Given Philly's mandate to get good NOW, i feel like the Flames can trade Gaudreau + (either Hamonic or Brodie) to Philly for Farabee + Patrick + Hart.

 

I feel we have LW depth to replace Gaudreau by committee.  Farabee + Patrick also project to be first line players in the future.  But the key for me is Carter Hart gives us a goalie of the future.  I think all our G are failed prospects.  Parsons (Injuries), Gillies (injuries+never the same again), Rittich (trending into a solid NHL back-up), Schneider (wildcard still), Zagidulin (unproven), MacDonald (ECHL bust), etc.

we're on the same page , this is a big reason why I'd be shopping Johnny .. we got what , 3 years of him left ?

Id do that Philly deal for sure, but i cant see Hart going anywhere for anybody .. Philly is a goalie graveyard worse than us  and he seems like the one who can finally break free of that 

but if they go for it ?  absolutely 

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2 minutes ago, phoenix66 said:

we're on the same page , this is a big reason why I'd be shopping Johnny .. we got what , 3 years of him left ?

Id do that Philly deal for sure, but i cant see Hart going anywhere for anybody .. Philly is a goalie graveyard worse than us  and he seems like the one who can finally break free of that 

but if they go for it ?  absolutely 

 

We are likely giving up 3 years worth of 90-points from Johnny for,

 

Farabee = potentially 80-point player in 3-years time.

Patrick = trending into 2nd line C two-way guy who can score 65-point range.

Hart = the sky is the limit... Vezina winner one day.

 

Philly need some veteran D to help their young guys develop.  Hamonic would be perfect for them.  

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6 minutes ago, phoenix66 said:

we're on the same page , this is a big reason why I'd be shopping Johnny .. we got what , 3 years of him left ?

 

Thing is, if he's going to Philly after 3 years anyways... right?

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41 minutes ago, phoenix66 said:

because you'd be trading JG for him

 

 

we're not in disagreement over the players.. just maybe views on what''s more effective 

JG is by far the more dynamic player .. when he has room .. but that to me is an issue, in that if hes contained and not allowed to make the players around him better .. suddenly our top line goes MIA

Hall makes himself get room , which I believe would open up more opportunities for the linemates as a result -- he typically does have higher assist totals , so hes feeding the puck to somebody 

 

I would gladly , in a heartbeat take 20 points off every player on the roster , if it meant going a round or 2 deeper in the playoffs 

 

Now, if there was a reasonable way to acquire him AND keep Johnny , Id be all over it .. Johnny and Hall 1-2 down the left side would give teams fits 

 

A lot of teams #1 lines don't do well in playoffs and it's the 2nd and 3rd lines that prevail and win playoff games. The opposition's main onjective is to shutdown top lines in the playoffs which frees up some action for other lines. I wouldn't be afraid to take on Hall but I wouldn't trade Gaudreau for him.

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12 minutes ago, The_People1 said:

 

We are likely giving up 3 years worth of 90-points from Johnny for,

 

Farabee = potentially 80-point player in 3-years time.

Patrick = trending into 2nd line C two-way guy who can score 65-point range.

Hart = the sky is the limit... Vezina winner one day.

 

Philly need some veteran D to help their young guys develop.  Hamonic would be perfect for them.  

 

If we do this we should trade Monahan and Tkachuk as well, because we would be starting from scratch.

 

I am not a huge Farabee fan, I see him as a 2nd line player in the 50 point range.

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20 minutes ago, JTech780 said:

 

If we do this we should trade Monahan and Tkachuk as well, because we would be starting from scratch.

 

I am not a huge Farabee fan, I see him as a 2nd line player in the 50 point range.

 

No we won't.  We will just be winning games 1-0 instead of 6-5.

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21 minutes ago, JTech780 said:

 

If we do this we should trade Monahan and Tkachuk as well, because we would be starting from scratch.

 

I am not a huge Farabee fan, I see him as a 2nd line player in the 50 point range.

 

But for the record, i have no problems trading Monahan.  The ideal move is to get a #1 C so that Monahan can settle into the 2nd line C spot where he's best suited.  But if we have to trade him to get a true #1, then we have to consider that.

 

 

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34 minutes ago, GM_3300 said:

A lot of teams #1 lines don't do well in playoffs and it's the 2nd and 3rd lines that prevail and win playoff games. The opposition's main onjective is to shutdown top lines in the playoffs which frees up some action for other lines. I wouldn't be afraid to take on Hall but I wouldn't trade Gaudreau for him.

 

I agree and that's why i'm so disappointed in Backlund who didn't give it 110% in the playoffs.  That, and Jankowski + Neal were no-shows.  That's half the 2nd and 3rd lines that didn't come to play when it mattered the most.  If it was up to me, then all three will be moved this summer.

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7 minutes ago, The_People1 said:

 

I agree and that's why i'm so disappointed in Backlund who didn't give it 110% in the playoffs.  That, and Jankowski + Neal were no-shows.  That's half the 2nd and 3rd lines that didn't come to play when it mattered the most.  If it was up to me, then all three will be moved this summer.

I hope they are moved all 3 along with Brodie and Stone. We need to improve and better compliment our lines and pairings. I appreciate Backlund for what he is but now he is overpaid for it. Would a trade to CBJ work Backlund for Wennberg and their 2019-2nd and 2020 2nd.

I think the best place to try and trade Neal would be NJ if Shero still believes he can be of use. We would be dumping salary so take a 2nd and run.

Jankowski might be a good fit for OTT for another 2nd rounder.
Stone to VGK at 1.5M could make sense and ask about Haula.

Brodie and Mangiapane to TOR for Zaitlev RD and Kapanen RW is worth asking about.

Connolly would be the FA I would want this offseason. If we don't I bet he ends up in VAN.

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Just curious, as I see a lot of comments wanting to make Monahan the 2nd line center, what qualities make a true number 1? There aren't a lot of 80 point centers in the league, so obviously points aren't a measure.  He's okay at face-offs, but I not elite.  Is it physicality? I'm genuinely curious. Same question for what makes a good second line centerman, since everyone seems to want to eject Backlund into space these days, or bump him down to third line.  Playoffs were terrible for the whole team, but both guys had solid regular seasons at least.

 

Just for comparison, looking at the current cup finalists.

St. Louis: Schenn (17G, 54 Points), O'Reilly (28G, 77 Points), Bozak (13G, 38 Points), Sundqvist (14G, 31 Points)

Boston: Bergeron (32G, 79 Points), Krejci (20G, 73 Points), Coyle (12G, 34 Points), Kuraly (8G, 22 Points)

Calgary: Monahan (34G, 82 Points), Backlund (21G, 47 Points), Jankowski (14G, 32 Points), Ryan (13G, 38 Points)

 

First thing that pops out is Boston has 2 elite centers in Krejci and Bergeron, compared to just 1 for St. Louis and Calgary (in terms of point production).  Interestingly, Calgary and St. Louis have almost identical point production from the center position.  Given the option of having two elite centers, you would obviously prefer that, but it may not be possible.  Still, if St. Louis can make the big dance with their center depth, we should be able to as well.

 

And Playoff Performances, Extrapolated to 22 games

St. Louis: Schenn (3G, 9 Points), O'Reilly (3G, 16 Points), Bozak (5G, 12 Points), Sundqvist (4G, 9 Points)

Boston: Bergeron (9.9G, 17.6 Points), Krejci (4.4G, 15.4 Points), Coyle (8.8G, 16.5 Points), Kuraly (5.5G, 12.4 Points)

Calgary: Monahan (4.4G, 8.8 Points), Backlund (4.4G, 13.2 Points), Jankowski (0G, 0 Points), Ryan (4.4G, 4.4 Points)

 

Comparing Calgary is tough, because the sample size is quite small.  Not surprising, we mostly don't compare well in the post season this year.  Backlund does however hang in with the other 2nd line centers here in Schenn and Krejci.  Sure, he missed some key moments, but was still relatively productive offensively.  Boston and St. Louis seem to have different recipes for success though.  Boston relies on superstar performances from Bergeron (and gets them), but also gets some much needed help from their 3rd center.  St. Louis on the other hand has a more balanced attack throughout.  We got a middling performance from our number 1, which would be manageable if the depth had shown up.  So I would argue our biggest needs at center are either a) a better playoff performer at number 1 (although Mony is only 23, and other players in the past have developed bad playoff reputations they later smashed) or b) greatly improve our 3rd line center.

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43 minutes ago, ABC923 said:

Just curious, as I see a lot of comments wanting to make Monahan the 2nd line center, what qualities make a true number 1? There aren't a lot of 80 point centers in the league, so obviously points aren't a measure.  He's okay at face-offs, but I not elite.  Is it physicality? I'm genuinely curious. Same question for what makes a good second line centerman, since everyone seems to want to eject Backlund into space these days, or bump him down to third line. 

 

A true number one Center is an "elite in every situation" player, especially offensively, who can drive play all over the ice.  There are not many of them (and some are past their primes).  Points aren't the only measure but points are required.  Points are a data of conversion of chances.  Ultimately, it's a player who can generate offensive given any level of linemate... maybe only 10 to 12 true #1 Centers currently exist in the NHL.

 

A second line Center is "pretty good in every situation" player but lacking elite in one or two aspects of their game that drags them down.  I would put Monahan here.

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I believe the reason lots of people are suggesting the push down to 2/3 instead of 1/2 for Mony and Backs is that it does give us more of a Boston scenario or better because Backs is better than Coyle. I also don't necessarily think that most people would disagree that Mony is a very talented player, simply that he himself does not drive the play enough. If you watch, and I am certain you do, the catalyst for that line is Gaudreau. Where Mony is high end is his shot, but without a quality passer like Johnny, his numbers WILL drop quickly, that is not a question. You can look at Neal as a comparison for Monahan. Without a significant passer and someone to take heat off of him, he became a much less effective player. I would think Monahan is much the same. At least Neal can have a little grit when not scoring which Monahan lacks almost entirely. There simply is no snarl there.

 

I would say that looking at the Flames, the question isn't what a #1 centre is, should not in fact be the question because as you point out, the answer is elusive. The question is what do the Flames need as a team to be their #1 centre. While players like Nathan Mackinnon don't grow on trees, I would say the Flames need someone like him for the top line C. I think it is the type of player the Flames thought Bennett would become, and he still might. Basically a player who can carry the puck, with speed, into the offensive zone, pushing the D back. A good shot that can hit the net and score, but does not need to be elite. Basically a C who can take the pressure off of Johnny so that he can work his magic. The other winger then needs to be more like Monahan or Neal. Someone who is able to find the openings created by the others with an elite shot who can bury the dish from Johnny. The other way to adjust this would be to find a RW similar to what Iginla was to push the play.

 

I believe that most players are available to be traded for the right cost, but I also believe that in some cases, the cost would need to be exorbitant. Moving Johnny for me would require payment that makes the team better now AND in the future. A straight Gaudreau for Hall is not a move I would want to make. Gaudreau for Hall and Nathan Bastian might get me thinking though I don't know what else might need to adjust the trade for me.

 

Monahan for me could be traded for the right price as well. I would consider a C for C swap or something different depending on situation. As a thought only, following the Hall, Gaudreau theme, since Gaudreau and Monahan are both signed to team friendly contracts and have proven chemistry, would Jersey look at the following, and would the Flames.

 

To Jersey:

Gaudreau (Hall and Bastian) 6.75 mil 3 seasons

Monahan (Basically trading for Hischier and 2nd round pick) 6.375 mil 4 seasons

Jankowski  (Replaces Zacha for Devils) 1.675 mil 1 season

Stone (2nd round pick and cap dump) 3.5 mil 1 season

 

To Calgary

Hall (27 year, 6'1 205 LW/C, 37P in 33 games for Devils last season) 6 mil 1 season

Hischier (20 year, 6'1 175 C, 17G, 30 A in 69 games for Devils) 925 k 1 season

Bastian (21 year, 6'4, 205 RW Prospect, 2 round pick, 18 G in AHL last season, 3 in 7 games for the Devils) 714K 2 seasons, no waivers needed

Rights to Zacha (22 year, 6'3 210 C, 13 G, 12 A in 61 games for the Devils last season) RFA under 2 mil to sign

2 2nd round picks in 2019

 

Total cap moved 18.3 mil, cap coming back max 9 mil with signing Zacha and keeping Bastian for Savings of over 9 mil to get a #1 C. 

 

Some other pieces may be needed / changed, but I think this is a starting ballpark for what would be needed to consider moving Johnny and Mony. It works for Jersey as well. Who knows though what GMs will and won't do.

 

BTW I am not advocating this trade, just saying that it is the starting Ballpark.

 

 

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1 hour ago, ABC923 said:

Just curious, as I see a lot of comments wanting to make Monahan the 2nd line center, what qualities make a true number 1? There aren't a lot of 80 point centers in the league, so obviously points aren't a measure.  He's okay at face-offs, but I not elite.  Is it physicality? I'm genuinely curious. Same question for what makes a good second line centerman, since everyone seems to want to eject Backlund into space these days, or bump him down to third line.  Playoffs were terrible for the whole team, but both guys had solid regular seasons at least.

 

Just for comparison, looking at the current cup finalists.

St. Louis: Schenn (17G, 54 Points), O'Reilly (28G, 77 Points), Bozak (13G, 38 Points), Sundqvist (14G, 31 Points)

Boston: Bergeron (32G, 79 Points), Krejci (20G, 73 Points), Coyle (12G, 34 Points), Kuraly (8G, 22 Points)

Calgary: Monahan (34G, 82 Points), Backlund (21G, 47 Points), Jankowski (14G, 32 Points), Ryan (13G, 38 Points)

 

First thing that pops out is Boston has 2 elite centers in Krejci and Bergeron, compared to just 1 for St. Louis and Calgary (in terms of point production).  Interestingly, Calgary and St. Louis have almost identical point production from the center position.  Given the option of having two elite centers, you would obviously prefer that, but it may not be possible.  Still, if St. Louis can make the big dance with their center depth, we should be able to as well.

 

And Playoff Performances, Extrapolated to 22 games

St. Louis: Schenn (3G, 9 Points), O'Reilly (3G, 16 Points), Bozak (5G, 12 Points), Sundqvist (4G, 9 Points)

Boston: Bergeron (9.9G, 17.6 Points), Krejci (4.4G, 15.4 Points), Coyle (8.8G, 16.5 Points), Kuraly (5.5G, 12.4 Points)

Calgary: Monahan (4.4G, 8.8 Points), Backlund (4.4G, 13.2 Points), Jankowski (0G, 0 Points), Ryan (4.4G, 4.4 Points)

 

Comparing Calgary is tough, because the sample size is quite small.  Not surprising, we mostly don't compare well in the post season this year.  Backlund does however hang in with the other 2nd line centers here in Schenn and Krejci.  Sure, he missed some key moments, but was still relatively productive offensively.  Boston and St. Louis seem to have different recipes for success though.  Boston relies on superstar performances from Bergeron (and gets them), but also gets some much needed help from their 3rd center.  St. Louis on the other hand has a more balanced attack throughout.  We got a middling performance from our number 1, which would be manageable if the depth had shown up.  So I would argue our biggest needs at center are either a) a better playoff performer at number 1 (although Mony is only 23, and other players in the past have developed bad playoff reputations they later smashed) or b) greatly improve our 3rd line center.

Personally I hate numbering lines and pairings, its all about ice time and what you do with it. Certain lines and pairings have defined purposes and should be used in those capacities for every advantage against the opposition. Each player will have his strengths and weaknesses, elite players have very few flaws in their game. Monahan is a smart fundamentally sound player but doesn't skate fast and isn't a solid checking forward. He is a scorer because works for open ice but is also good in tight scoring opportunities. Gaudreau and Monahan plus anyone else has proven to be successful so leave it alone. Backlund is a good hockey player but you can tell he is defensively minded but an opportunist on offense. Personally it would be wise to keep him at least another season and if you leave him with Tkachuk you want more offense so get a new RW that is a sniper. Maybe Neal if still here is or should be that guy. I would like to see the two Swedes together for a line of Tkachuk, Backlund, Lindholm. Put Neal with Gaudreau and Monahan, it has worked for everyone else that has played with them and I don't think Neal has forgotten how to score.

The3rd line I would build is Mangiapane, Bennett, Connolly (UFA)

The 4th line Dube, Ryan, Czarnik with Rychel and Lazar as your spares.

Everyone of these line should be defensively sound and able to score.

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Johnny and our first to Philly for Couturier and their first.

 

Bennett and Kylington (and likely more) to the devils for Hall

 

 

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I remember hoping last summer for BT to acquire ROR. One of the games best 2 way centres?

 

Are there any potential legit top 6 C out there? Kadri, but there will be lots of competition to acquire him.

 

I think that's the position the Flames really need to bolster this summer. UFA really isn't an option with Hayes likely already being signed, Duchene will be in even higher demand then. 

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8 hours ago, JTech780 said:

 

I get what you are saying and sure he might be more of a factor in the playoffs and his straight line style of play might be a good fit in the West, but he isn't a guy who makes players around him better.

 

The rest of the team in NJ put up the same totals as the season before, you would expect a dip in production when Hall missed more than half a s season, but that wasn't the case. 

 

Gaudreau creates offense for those around him and makes guys like Monahan and Lindholm better. Hall creates offense for himself.

 

I just think that guys like Monahan and Lindholm end up being 50 point players with Hall as opposed to 80 point players with Gaudreau.

 

At the end of the day I think Gaudreau is way more important to this offense than most like to give him credit for.

 

In the playoffs this year, he tried to make things happen but he was getting next to no help from his linemates.

 

JH is the only reason why we were 2nd in the league in scoring.

Hall is fast and could provide a 2nd punch for the team.

Once we got past the top line and Tkachuk, we are down to 40 point players and below.

It would be nice to have a legit 2nd scoring line.

 

Brodie + a pick for Kadri.

Frolik + Janko for Zucker

Czarnik for Jarry.

Buyout Stone.

 

We can play either Zucker or Lindholm on the top line.

Tkachuk + Kadri + Neal on the 2nd line.

Bennett + Backlund + Zucker/Lindholm on the 3rd.

Dube + Ryan + Mangiapane on the 4th.

    

If you get Kadri, you don't need Janko.  We have improved the team without adding salary.

MIght need to sign Fantenberg just to maintain depth.

Could even ship out Bennett + Gillies for Vatanen.

Then we just need a bottom 6 guy, maybe Hathaway.

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27 minutes ago, travel_dude said:

 

JH is the only reason why we were 2nd in the league in scoring.

 

 

But, who cares, if we were nearly last in that for the playoffs?   And a pattern has formed with JH?

 

I honestly don't know why we see this as an achievement, to me it is a giant problem.

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12 hours ago, Ward54 said:

Johnny and our first to Philly for Couturier and their first.

 

I would do it.  Center position is more important than wing, especially LHS LW.

 

Plus we move up to draft 11th where there's a better chance to draft a top line F or top pair D.

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12 hours ago, Thebrewcrew said:

I remember hoping last summer for BT to acquire ROR. One of the games best 2 way centres?

 

Are there any potential legit top 6 C out there? Kadri, but there will be lots of competition to acquire him.

 

I think that's the position the Flames really need to bolster this summer. UFA really isn't an option with Hayes likely already being signed, Duchene will be in even higher demand then. 

 

I remember hearing the Press were not happy with Ryan Johansen.  He is not living up to $8-mil-per standards.  Should we be interested?  14G and 64-points last season.

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Here is a modest trade suggestion based around us moving one of Brodie or Hamonic. 

Stone (50%) at 1.75 and Quine 750K to TOR for Zaitlev RD at 4.5M and Conner Brown RW at 2.1M

TOR is looking to save money wherever they can get it. We get an experienced RD needing a change and a 3rd line RW that still has some upside.

Allows us to trade Brodie (my choice) for either picks or another needed forward.

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1 hour ago, The_People1 said:

 

I remember hearing the Press were not happy with Ryan Johansen.  He is not living up to $8-mil-per standards.  Should we be interested?  14G and 64-points last season.

I’m a big Johansen fan, It would probably cost Monahan though 

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1 hour ago, The_People1 said:

 

I remember hearing the Press were not happy with Ryan Johansen.  He is not living up to $8-mil-per standards.  Should we be interested?  14G and 64-points last season.

 

I like the skill and size, but he plays disinterested at times, and I think we really need to focus on compete level this offseason. I would probably pass myself, unless the cost was really low, like Neal and Frolik.

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8 hours ago, The_People1 said:

 

I would do it.  Center position is more important than wing, especially LHS LW.

 

Plus we move up to draft 11th where there's a better chance to draft a top line F or top pair D.

 

I would do it too.   The truth is, though, players don't always get their way.  At least, they shouldn't.

 

Philly is definitely brought up, and that is Gaudreau's doing.    But realistically, I do not know if Philly, truly deep down, will bid the most for him.    They still do have some roots in them that put more value on the larger players.     Perhaps I am boxing them in too much.    But I would not be surprised to see a New York team, or a Las Angeles team, etc., pay more.   Gaudreau's greatest value is ticket sales.    That is best shown by how obvious it is that he should be considered for a trade and how unpopular the notion is.

 

He is a huge, huge draw for ticket sales.   Perhaps the largest of any player right now.   There are certain teams which will pay more for that.  A lot more.

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40 minutes ago, jjgallow said:

 

I would do it too.   The truth is, though, players don't always get their way.  At least, they shouldn't.

 

Philly is definitely brought up, and that is Gaudreau's doing.    But realistically, I do not know if Philly, truly deep down, will bid the most for him.    They still do have some roots in them that put more value on the larger players.     Perhaps I am boxing them in too much.    But I would not be surprised to see a New York team, or a Las Angeles team, etc., pay more.   Gaudreau's greatest value is ticket sales.    That is best shown by how obvious it is that he should be considered for a trade and how unpopular the notion is.

 

He is a huge, huge draw for ticket sales.   Perhaps the largest of any player right now.   There are certain teams which will pay more for that.  A lot more.

The more i give it thought , I change my mind about the Philly option. For the reason that johnny is a ticket draw and ultra elite. A similar level of player would need to be coming back.

Unless Stamkos somehow comes available , the only one that just keeps making sense to me is Hall.

Added bonus he's a Calgary boy.. Jonny's a NJ boy.. both get home town ticket drawing power . 

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