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Realistic Trade suggestions for improvement

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The Flames won top spot in the West. They are a young team with a number of solid contracts. They won't, can't, and shouldn't trade one of their best players for picks / prospects. 

 

I can see suggesting trading a core player for a better fit. That includes Gaudreau. If there is a specific player on the other end of the trade that is a better fit. But a generalized debate that we should trade him because his value is high doesn't make sense. 

 

Which Stanley Cup contender got there by trading their best players away while the team was in its prime? 

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4 minutes ago, kehatch said:

Which Stanley Cup contender got there by trading their best players away while the team was in its prime? 

I'd like to add a list of players who should have had astronomical value.  Gretzky, Messier, Thornton, Jagr.  None got any type of haul.  The minute BT picks up the phone to shop him is the minute another GM would question why and offer less.  If someone offers you something of good value how many people would not view the seller as desperate and offer less.  I believe if we traded Johnny or Gio tomorrow the return would be less than most here expect.

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8 minutes ago, cccsberg said:

Your points on Gaudreau are not far off, not that I would trade him.  If it’s a straight 1 for 1 hockey trade, say Gaudreau for Hall, I’m not sure anybody wins though of course there are differences.  In a Niewyndyck type scenario of superstar for rising, potential star it may be more palatable, especially if there are other issues like contract problems, but the team trading away the superstar is taking a huge risk. Doesn’t happen without some compelling reason.  At this time there is no compelling reason to even think of trading Gaudreau. In another 2 years, if he has stated and made clear he wants to play close to home once UFA, that would be a reason and we can seriously look at options.  

This current team has been building towards trying to win a SC and now would not be the time to start trading away the talent that got you this far. Having said this I think as an organization you have to define the time frame (window) to achieve this goal and make changes intelligently. Also as you say paying attention to contracts and especially players on expiring contracts. I think Treliving did the right thing if he was trying to move Brodie and Frolik this offseason using other pieces if necessary. Part of all this is of course in the cap management part and doing what is necessary to get Tkachuk nailed down and added to this core group. I would play out a scenario to use the remaining years with Giordano to win a SC. He is this team's leader and is getting past the time to trade him so make the most of the next 3 seasons. If the effort is not going well I would start trading off the likes of Gaudreau, Monahan Backlund and Bennett to start a new wave of talent to move forward with.

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If you trade Gaudreau you aren't getting anything as close as good as him in return, you would end up with a bunch picks and prospects that amount to hopes and prayers.

 

The idea of trading to Gaudreau to get better is laughable.

 

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Nobody suggested a bag of pucks.

 

So with regards to teams who traded top players to win a Stanley cup, the answer is all of them, including St. Louis.  Franchise player trades are rare but imho Gaudreau is not a and should not be a franchise player, that is the whole crux of this.  A franchise player delivers in the post-season.

 

Binnington himself was a result of the Eric Brewer trade.   A technicality perhaps, but these teams all make trades and if you Look at those trades, they are with the future in mind.

 

Some very strong arguements for keeping Gaudreau were just made above.  Very strong.  But they are all based on the premise that he is our franchise player on a team that is building for the Stanley Cup.

 

Which simply isn't true and we all saw it in the playoffs.  It's what we want to believe.

 

Anyway.  Can't build a team around a guy who can't show up in the playoffs.  We all know it

 

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9 minutes ago, jjgallow said:

 

Nobody suggested a bag of pucks.

 

So with regards to teams who traded top players to win a Stanley cup, the answer is all of them, including St. Louis.  Franchise player trades are rare but imho Gaudreau is not a and should not be a franchise player, that is the whole crux of this.  A franchise player delivers in the post-season.

 

Binnington himself was a result of the Eric Brewer trade.   A technicality perhaps, but these teams all make trades and if you Look at those trades, they are with the future in mind.

 

Some very strong arguements for keeping Gaudreau were just made above.  Very strong.  But they are all based on the premise that he is our franchise player on a team that is building for the Stanley Cup.

 

Which simply isn't true and we all saw it in the playoffs.  It's what we want to believe.

 

Anyway.  Can't build a team around a guy who can't show up in the playoffs.  We all know it

 

You're right on that point, but going by that reasoning there are no franchise players on the team either. So why single out the player that has probably the best value contract on the team? Any dollar for dollar trade (cant afford anything else right now) is going to return alot less.

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20 hours ago, flames-fan-in-jets-land said:

No. Kyle Connor would be the better and cheaper option.  Problem being is the common feeling around here is the same. Given a one or the other choice Connor seems to be winning out. Sure Laine is a prolific scorer but his D game is severely lacking ( a big part of his -24 +/-).

 

Really, so how much is Connor going to get paid?  What's your guess on Laine?

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14 hours ago, jjgallow said:

 

Nobody suggested a bag of pucks.

 

So with regards to teams who traded top players to win a Stanley cup, the answer is all of them, including St. Louis.  Franchise player trades are rare but imho Gaudreau is not a and should not be a franchise player, that is the whole crux of this.  A franchise player delivers in the post-season.

 

Binnington himself was a result of the Eric Brewer trade.   A technicality perhaps, but these teams all make trades and if you Look at those trades, they are with the future in mind.

 

Some very strong arguements for keeping Gaudreau were just made above.  Very strong.  But they are all based on the premise that he is our franchise player on a team that is building for the Stanley Cup.

 

Which simply isn't true and we all saw it in the playoffs.  It's what we want to believe.

 

Anyway.  Can't build a team around a guy who can't show up in the playoffs.  We all know it

 

Showing up in the playoffs is a definite must, and it is easy to argue that with past line-ups it has been too easy to shut down Gaudreau.  Perhaps they got the message and improve internally, with better effort, which is possible but likely not to the degree needed.  Increased team toughness, with Lucic should actually help, but you have to wonder if the deterrent to cheap shots, etc on Gaudreau needs to be on the same line?  I’m of that mind and therefore are inclined to put Bennett as 1RW as he seems to be our best option internally.  Perhaps that could change with an up and comer-Pospisil?-but that’s a huge long shot at the moment.  Give Bennett till Christmas to figure it out and if it doesn’t work out then we’d be looking for a serious trade, a la last TDL misfire, for Zucker.

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2 hours ago, The_People1 said:

 

Really, so how much is Connor going to get paid?  What's your guess on Laine?

Haven't heard any rumblings on what Connor is asking but the numbers say it shouldn't be much more than Schiefle (6.5 max, depending on term). The popular rumor for Laine is he's asking north of 9M, personally a 3 year "show me" deal at about the same as Connor should be enough to keep him in the good graces of the fans.

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4 hours ago, flames-fan-in-jets-land said:

Haven't heard any rumblings on what Connor is asking but the numbers say it shouldn't be much more than Schiefle (6.5 max, depending on term). The popular rumor for Laine is he's asking north of 9M, personally a 3 year "show me" deal at about the same as Connor should be enough to keep him in the good graces of the fans.

 

Laine is a tough one because he's coming off a down year and yet, it was a 30-goal season.  He's already scored 40-goals once and he's one of the NHL's highest goal scorers by the age of 21.  He's beginning to look somewhat like a one trick pony but yet, what a trick.  He could score 60-goals a season in the near future.

 

He sounds available whereas Connor doesn't.  So i wonder what's the price.  He could play both RW/LW and we need RW.

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15 hours ago, JTech780 said:

If you trade Gaudreau you aren't getting anything as close as good as him in return, you would end up with a bunch picks and prospects that amount to hopes and prayers.

 

The idea of trading to Gaudreau to get better is laughable.

 

Yeah, look at those prospects and 1st round picks we got for Iginla and Bouwmeester.  They are really NOT making a difference.

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6 hours ago, The_People1 said:

 

Laine is a tough one because he's coming off a down year and yet, it was a 30-goal season.  He's already scored 40-goals once and he's one of the NHL's highest goal scorers by the age of 21.  He's beginning to look somewhat like a one trick pony but yet, what a trick.  He could score 60-goals a season in the near future.

 

He sounds available whereas Connor doesn't.  So i wonder what's the price.  He could play both RW/LW and we need RW.

If it came down to him or Tkachuk I'd keep Matty. The fact Laine has 27 pts less and half of them are PP pts re enforces the whole one trick pony idea.

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2 hours ago, cccsberg said:

Yeah, look at those prospects and 1st round picks we got for Iginla and Bouwmeester.  They are really NOT making a difference.

 

ok, so let's be fair...

 

We traded Iginla at the age of 57 or something like that.   Bouwmeester too.

 

Those aren't reasonable comparisons.

 

Also keep in mind the reality that whatever disadvantage we have imagined, is the exact same disadvantage for the other trading party.  Another way of saying this is come on guys let's not be ridiculous.

 

So literally I just watched the conversation go from "trading Gaudreau is ridiculous and we would never do that, and"..

..

"let's trade Tkachuk for Laine".

 

 

Like literally.  lol.

 

You keep Tkachuk.   Which is why what's happening now with his contract, and the Lucic move, scares me half to death.  And I'm not the only one.

 

Laine:   Offer Gaudreau.        Gaudreau for Laine.   Negotiate pieces on the side from there.   Your team instantly gets huge, and all your top talent now performs in the playoffs (or can).   You get way younger, you're scoring more goals than you are now (Gaudreau is mostly assists).

 

And.....for those who think we will lose on Gaudreau....   Yeah you're probably right because we'll keep him until he's 35 and trade him for a bag of pucks.     But if he were in play for Laine, the same is true on both sides.  Winnipeg is also worrying about how they get similar back.    This solves that, more or less.

 

So really I see only two big problems:

1.  We don't know Laine and what baggage he comes with

2.   We'd pretty much have to buy out Lucic because of that totally insane trade we made.   Or send him as part of a package and assume some of the salary.

 

 

I'm just saying guys, everyone's getting all emotional about trading Gaudreau and how you can't trade franchise players and then three seconds later we're all talking about trading Tkachuk.  lol.     Now you're going to make me emotional ;)

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7 hours ago, The_People1 said:

 

Laine is a tough one because he's coming off a down year and yet, it was a 30-goal season.  He's already scored 40-goals once and he's one of the NHL's highest goal scorers by the age of 21.  He's beginning to look somewhat like a one trick pony but yet, what a trick.  He could score 60-goals a season in the near future.

 

He sounds available whereas Connor doesn't.  So i wonder what's the price.  He could play both RW/LW and we need RW.

 

IMHO, I don't think that's a tough one at all, back to Buy Low and sell high.  Of course it is actually tough haha.....you're right,,   

 

But him having a down year should be a Requirement for considering him.  We should NEVER be acquiring players in their career years, ever.     We should only be selling players in their career years (and don't have to).

 

So first requirement met  (this is the only year he'll ever be anywhere near affordable).

 

What do we know?  We know he's one of the top 3-5 most talented young players in the NHL right now.  I would personally say it's a tossup between him, McDavid, and a couple others.  Except he's had an aweful season.

 

Step 1:   Why did he have an aweful season?  First question to ask.

                        https://www.nhl.com/news/injuries-hindered-patrik-laine-during-season-and-playoffs/c-306950966

               Answered.

 

Step 2:  His attitude?    Despite recent media remarks, I would say good. He is definitely frustrated right now.    But I refer to his playoff performances.

                 His performances in the playoffs are elevated.   He is a championship winner.

 

Step 3:   Is his current situation reversible?     

               Answer:  Yes.

                Look at this quote:    "Nothing I couldn't handle,"  from the above article.

 

              This guy, one of the brightest stars in the NHL, is being allowed to self-manage a serious back issue and play 82 games.

               He's 21, so his back can probably be fixed.

 

               But, he's being mismanaged 100%.     One of the top talents in the NHL playing 82 games with a back injury should be a fireable offense. 

               I thought only Edmonton was this dumb.

              He should have INSTANTLY gone on injured reserve and be sent to the best back specialists in the world with dedicated staff giving him a recovery plan.

 

Step 4:   Laine for Gaudreau and Lucic  ;)   Or something like that.

 

 

Step 5:   Do what you do with Any Ferrari and get him sent to the experts.   Don't think twice about putting him on injured reserve for half the upcoming season.  Don't even flinch.

 

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13 hours ago, cccsberg said:

Showing up in the playoffs is a definite must, and it is easy to argue that with past line-ups it has been too easy to shut down Gaudreau.  Perhaps they got the message and improve internally, with better effort, which is possible but likely not to the degree needed.  Increased team toughness, with Lucic should actually help, but you have to wonder if the deterrent to cheap shots, etc on Gaudreau needs to be on the same line?  I’m of that mind and therefore are inclined to put Bennett as 1RW as he seems to be our best option internally.  Perhaps that could change with an up and comer-Pospisil?-but that’s a huge long shot at the moment.  Give Bennett till Christmas to figure it out and if it doesn’t work out then we’d be looking for a serious trade, a la last TDL misfire, for Zucker.

I wouldn't change that top line initially to start the season. This gave Lindholm his first season with Gaudreau and Monahan, the 2nd season should have them more familiar with each other. Bennett with Tkachuk and Backlund should provide another element to that line, to free up the other two for better results. Nothing against Frolik but I think Bennett should provide that missing edge and frees up Tkachuk a bit more. Like you suggest, if Bennett isn't a difference maker on this line Peters will need to use him elsewhere not trade him.

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16 minutes ago, GM_3300 said:

I wouldn't change that top line initially to start the season. This gave Lindholm his first season with Gaudreau and Monahan, the 2nd season should have them more familiar with each other. Bennett with Tkachuk and Backlund should provide another element to that line, to free up the other two for better results. Nothing against Frolik but I think Bennett should provide that missing edge and frees up Tkachuk a bit more. Like you suggest, if Bennett isn't a difference maker on this line Peters will need to use him elsewhere not trade him.

Those options could work too, however I was addressing the Gaudreau abuse issue specifically.  Bennett could solve that.  Tkachuk doesn’t need that.  If Bennett doesn’t work a trade solution would be required, including Bennett or not.

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3 hours ago, cccsberg said:

Those options could work too, however I was addressing the Gaudreau abuse issue specifically.  Bennett could solve that.  Tkachuk doesn’t need that.  If Bennett doesn’t work a trade solution would be required, including Bennett or not.

I believe that has to be a team response not necessarily a line mate. In regards to Tkachuk I don't think we need him in the box unnecessarily either. I have no problem thinking Bennett will do his part to help this team win games.

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4 hours ago, GM_3300 said:

I believe that has to be a team response not necessarily a line mate. In regards to Tkachuk I don't think we need him in the box unnecessarily either. I have no problem thinking Bennett will do his part to help this team win games.

with our lack of right wingers.. why is Bennett the de facto player switching to play right wing>> I'd move Jonny to that wing and have lucic/bennett. tkachuk.. dube available to play on their strong side.. Jonny just wanders wherever the hell he wants anyways.. 

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8 hours ago, GM_3300 said:

I wouldn't change that top line initially to start the season. This gave Lindholm his first season with Gaudreau and Monahan, the 2nd season should have them more familiar with each other. Bennett with Tkachuk and Backlund should provide another element to that line, to free up the other two for better results. Nothing against Frolik but I think Bennett should provide that missing edge and frees up Tkachuk a bit more. Like you suggest, if Bennett isn't a difference maker on this line Peters will need to use him elsewhere not trade him.

I agree, the top line worked very well so leave it be...I’d definitely like to see Bennett and Tachuck together in some form or another...honesty I’d consider Bennett as the Ctr and maybe try Janks on the RW with Backlind Lucic and Frolik or whoever on the 3rd or something like that..I think Janks could take a big step this year if in the right position plus you could have Janks and Bennet rotate which could prove to be difficult for opposing teams to adjust to 

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I think Right Now The only Thing i want to see is not the lines etc etc is Tkachuk Signed Cause this Waiting is Enough to Kill a Rhino and Scares me to No end

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1 hour ago, The_Snowbear said:

I think Right Now The only Thing i want to see is not the lines etc etc is Tkachuk Signed Cause this Waiting is Enough to Kill a Rhino and Scares me to No end

Sadly, as it stands right now I think Frolik will be at camp and not Chucky. It almost seems that all the other RFAs are waiting for a Marner deal. Again I can't see the entire crop of high end RFAs holding out until December but you're right, this waiting game is getting old.

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I worries Me more i think on weather he wants to stay here or he wants to Move to the us like his Father Obviously Everyone Has there opinion of what they think he will do id like to know what he actually wants

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13 hours ago, Horsman1 said:

with our lack of right wingers.. why is Bennett the de facto player switching to play right wing>> I'd move Jonny to that wing and have lucic/bennett. tkachuk.. dube available to play on their strong side.. Jonny just wanders wherever the hell he wants anyways.. 

The only answer I have is that he has been used as a RW a few times and done OK. More importantly I think you want to get certain elements of play on each line and I like the thought of having an aggressive winger with Tkachuk and Backlund.

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On 8/18/2019 at 10:19 AM, jjgallow said:

 

IMHO, I don't think that's a tough one at all, back to Buy Low and sell high.  Of course it is actually tough haha.....you're right,,   

 

But him having a down year should be a Requirement for considering him.  We should NEVER be acquiring players in their career years, ever.     We should only be selling players in their career years (and don't have to).

 

So first requirement met  (this is the only year he'll ever be anywhere near affordable).

 

What do we know?  We know he's one of the top 3-5 most talented young players in the NHL right now.  I would personally say it's a tossup between him, McDavid, and a couple others.  Except he's had an aweful season.

 

Step 1:   Why did he have an aweful season?  First question to ask.

                        https://www.nhl.com/news/injuries-hindered-patrik-laine-during-season-and-playoffs/c-306950966

               Answered.

 

Step 2:  His attitude?    Despite recent media remarks, I would say good. He is definitely frustrated right now.    But I refer to his playoff performances.

                 His performances in the playoffs are elevated.   He is a championship winner.

 

Step 3:   Is his current situation reversible?     

               Answer:  Yes.

                Look at this quote:    "Nothing I couldn't handle,"  from the above article.

 

              This guy, one of the brightest stars in the NHL, is being allowed to self-manage a serious back issue and play 82 games.

               He's 21, so his back can probably be fixed.

 

               But, he's being mismanaged 100%.     One of the top talents in the NHL playing 82 games with a back injury should be a fireable offense. 

               I thought only Edmonton was this dumb.

              He should have INSTANTLY gone on injured reserve and be sent to the best back specialists in the world with dedicated staff giving him a recovery plan.

 

Step 4:   Laine for Gaudreau and Lucic  ;)   Or something like that.

 

 

Step 5:   Do what you do with Any Ferrari and get him sent to the experts.   Don't think twice about putting him on injured reserve for half the upcoming season.  Don't even flinch.

 

 

While I agree it's a buy low opportunity on Laine and I'd like us to investigate the cost to acquire him, I don't agree we trade a 99-point player for a 50-point player.  We should only trade a 50-point overachiever for Laine who only had a lowly 50-points.  

 

So for us, that's Backlund.

 

Don't trade a perfectly fine running Porsche for a broken Ferrari.  Instead, trade them a good old reliable Toyota Camry. 

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30 minutes ago, The_People1 said:

 

While I agree it's a buy low opportunity on Laine and I'd like us to investigate the cost to acquire him, I don't agree we trade a 99-point player for a 50-point player.  We should only trade a 50-point overachiever for Laine who only had a lowly 50-points.  

 

So for us, that's Backlund.

 

Don't trade a perfectly fine running Porsche for a broken Ferrari.  Instead, trade them a good old reliable Toyota Camry. 

 

The costs have to line up for sure.

Imagine a top line with Laine.

Unfortunately, replacing Backlund with our existing crop of C's isn't great.

Ryan - good 2-way player, but is not super creative, mostly N/S

Janko - struggled in a sheltered role

Bennett - has never cemented himself in the role, so results could be mixed

 

Laine for Backlund makes us better on one line and much worse on the 2nd line.

A pipe dream for sure, but it would have to be something like Laine and a decent C coming in, in seperate trades.

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