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Realistic Trade suggestions for improvement

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8 minutes ago, kehatch said:

 

I have never been a fan. I don't really know why. He has done well in the AHL and his underlying numbers are strong at the NHL. But there is something about his game that rubs me the wrong way I guess. 

 

??  You don't like a guy who scores at every level of hockey including the NHL or are you just allergic to bread?

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3 hours ago, The_People1 said:

 

??  You don't like a guy who scores at every level of hockey including the NHL or are you just allergic to bread?

 

He hasn't scored much at the NHL level, but given his play time that's fine. I think my issue with him is that he doesn't wow me at anything. I like my bottom 6 players to fill a niche / role (shutdown, pk, physical, etc). I don't see him as someone who has top 6 offensive potential or filling a role in the bottom 6.

 

I most definitely could be wrong, and hope I am, but for whatever reason I see Mangiapane as a career fringe player. 

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7 hours ago, kehatch said:

 

He hasn't scored much at the NHL level, but given his play time that's fine. I think my issue with him is that he doesn't wow me at anything. I like my bottom 6 players to fill a niche / role (shutdown, pk, physical, etc). I don't see him as someone who has top 6 offensive potential or filling a role in the bottom 6.

 

I most definitely could be wrong, and hope I am, but for whatever reason I see Mangiapane as a career fringe player. 

 

He didn't really start scoring until the last quarter of the season.

As a bottom sixer, he scored pretty well.

His shot isn't bad.

He's fairly quick.

Gets knocked down a lot but doesn't shy away from the boards.

The only issue I have with him is that he hasn't yet shown that he can play with anyone.

Should have been better with Janko, but really didn;t shine.

Perhaps not the right fit with Bennett.

Hasn;t played with any top 6 players really.

Based on games played, he projected to score at the same rate as Ryan.

 

It's hard to judge a player's ceiling when the top 6 is mostly set.

Maybe different this season, but he would have to switch to RW.

Perhaps if Bennett ur Frolik doesn't make it with Backlund or they don;t bring in a RW, he might show something there.

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3 hours ago, travel_dude said:

 

He didn't really start scoring until the last quarter of the season.

As a bottom sixer, he scored pretty well.

His shot isn't bad.

He's fairly quick.

Gets knocked down a lot but doesn't shy away from the boards.

The only issue I have with him is that he hasn't yet shown that he can play with anyone.

Should have been better with Janko, but really didn;t shine.

Perhaps not the right fit with Bennett.

Hasn;t played with any top 6 players really.

Based on games played, he projected to score at the same rate as Ryan.

 

It's hard to judge a player's ceiling when the top 6 is mostly set.

Maybe different this season, but he would have to switch to RW.

Perhaps if Bennett ur Frolik doesn't make it with Backlund or they don;t bring in a RW, he might show something there.

We have no idea what Peters is contemplating for the top 6 but I will guess Backlund will remain the #2 C. If Frolik remains they could stay with the 3M line or sub in Bennett on RW. I wouldn't mind a change away from the 3M line along these lines Mangiapane LW, Ryan C, Frolik RW.

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12 hours ago, kehatch said:

 

He hasn't scored much at the NHL level, but given his play time that's fine. I think my issue with him is that he doesn't wow me at anything. I like my bottom 6 players to fill a niche / role (shutdown, pk, physical, etc). I don't see him as someone who has top 6 offensive potential or filling a role in the bottom 6.

 

I most definitely could be wrong, and hope I am, but for whatever reason I see Mangiapane as a career fringe player. 

 

I think his peak potential is something like a Marchessault.  In a top 6 role he could give us a peak of 20 to 25G.  He's got a decent finish with above average play making abilities.  Nothing wows but the complete package is there for a 2nd/3rd line scoring role that is feisty on the forecheck and can give unexpected scoring. 

 

I agree I like my bottom 6 to fill niches too but one niche is scoring from the bottom 6.  

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I can get behind why you wouldn't necessarily love Mangiapange. i actually agree with Kehatch that outside of his speed, nothing really wows you in his game. 

 

but at the same time he keeps passing every test. Junior, AHL, and now he's getting progressively better as he plays more in the NHL. At 5 on 5 last year his Goals/60 rate led the team and his point/60 were basically tied with Ryan for the highest outside the top 6. I know you can say it's only 44 games but that's not really that small a sample size, plus he got better as the season went on (playoffs included).

 

At this point he may not always pass the eye test, but I just cannot see how he won't be a useful and regular NHLer. Players that follow his development curve rarely just suddenly bust 

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23 hours ago, kehatch said:

 

I have never been a fan. I don't really know why. He has done well in the AHL and his underlying numbers are strong at the NHL. But there is something about his game that rubs me the wrong way I guess. 

 

Does he try hard enough? I find that he tries enough, but I wonder why his line didn't get more time, when they seemed to be the only line that cared to play in the 2nd half of the season. 

 

I feel like, as long as he tries he has a spot. He has speed, tenacity, and something the team lacks. I find the only thing he lacks in is size. 

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If Bennett or Mangiapane come out this season and have a positive impact I will be pleasantly wrong.  I just can't get behind either guy.  Bennett has all of the physical tools but doesn't seem to have the IQ to bring it together.  Mangiapane has loads of IQ but is lacking the physical tool set to be a real impact player. Jut my opinion obviously, and I would be really happy to be wrong.  . 

 

The guy I can get behind is Dube.  I think this guy has the brains and the skill set to make a real impact.  Possibly in a top 6 role, but certainly in a bottom 6 defensive role. 

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6 minutes ago, kehatch said:

If Bennett or Mangiapane come out this season and have a positive impact I will be pleasantly wrong.  I just can't get behind either guy.  Bennett has all of the physical tools but doesn't seem to have the IQ to bring it together.  Mangiapane has loads of IQ but is lacking the physical tool set to be a real impact player. Jut my opinion obviously, and I would be really happy to be wrong.  . 

 

The guy I can get behind is Dube.  I think this guy has the brains and the skill set to make a real impact.  Possibly in a top 6 role, but certainly in a bottom 6 defensive role. 

 

See, I actually see both Dude and Mangiapane as quite similar. Smallish, heart, IQ, and Dube just has a bit more speed, while I think Mangiapane has a bit more bite. It is a little too small of a sample for Dube to know for sure. He got knocked around a lot last year. It doesn't mean that he is weak or soft. I just think he is small, and the Flames are made up of a lot of small players for them to move up higher in the depth chart. 

 

I see it the same way as speed. You can't have two slow guys, and you can't have a line of 2-3 small guys either. For me, Gaudreau and Monahan equate to two small guys because of how soft Monahan is. That's fine, but we can't have a 3rd soft player on their line or they get pushed around. We will never win with them if that's the case. It's kind of like the Sedin twins. Two great players, but both are really soft and take/took an abundance of abuse. The abuse weighs on them and eventually their bodies will break down. We are already seeing a lot of injuries to Monahan. 

 

So, I just feel like moving smaller guys higher into the top6 with the current make-up of the team, helps us get smaller and weaker and easier to play against. 

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1 hour ago, kehatch said:

If Bennett or Mangiapane come out this season and have a positive impact I will be pleasantly wrong.  I just can't get behind either guy.  Bennett has all of the physical tools but doesn't seem to have the IQ to bring it together.  Mangiapane has loads of IQ but is lacking the physical tool set to be a real impact player. Jut my opinion obviously, and I would be really happy to be wrong.  . 

 

The guy I can get behind is Dube.  I think this guy has the brains and the skill set to make a real impact.  Possibly in a top 6 role, but certainly in a bottom 6 defensive role. 

 

Right now, I would give the edge to Mangiapane.

Has figured out what he needs to do to play in the NHL.

So far, Dube hasn't.

 

Who has the higher ceiling?

Dube most likely, but he has a long way to go.

 

Your opinion of Bennett won't be very popular here.

Not that I disagree, just that as many make excuses for him, or suggest that his grt is what makes him a special player, or his playoff performance makes him better.

I would be interested in seeing Bennett play with high skill for an extended period of time to see if he has the IQ necessary.

 

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I’ve said it before, I’ll say it again. Mangiapane is a player who has the tools to be a top six player. He has speed, a good shot, he’s tenacious and unafraid to go into the corners, will drive towards the net for goals, all this despite his size. I remember reporting on him here when I was watching him and Andersson in Barrie, and I mentioned my only real knock on him was that I thought he played too aggressive to the point I worry about him sustaining an injury. Mangiapane is/was quite wreckless, and in his mind I believe he thinks he’s Milan Lucic. He’s been told his size was an issue throughout his hockey career (paraphrasing some interviews I’ve watched/read), and he’s evidently the type of player to challenge that kind of thinking. I like Ryan, but IMO Mangiapane’s best comes out when he’s playing with skilled players. He doesn’t drive a line himself, but he can be both a setup man and finisher if playing with another skilled player. I’ll beat the dead horse - Lebanc (Sharks) and him had a pretty magical chemistry playing on the top line in Barrie... I’d like us to grab him or someone like him to add another 1-2 punch on a line. 

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13 hours ago, travel_dude said:

 

Right now, I would give the edge to Mangiapane.

Has figured out what he needs to do to play in the NHL.

So far, Dube hasn't.

 

Who has the higher ceiling?

Dube most likely, but he has a long way to go.

 

Your opinion of Bennett won't be very popular here.

Not that I disagree, just that as many make excuses for him, or suggest that his grt is what makes him a special player, or his playoff performance makes him better.

I would be interested in seeing Bennett play with high skill for an extended period of time to see if he has the IQ necessary.

 

Hockey players and IQ don't go very well together LOL

I have never believed Bennett to be the smartest player and agree it is time to let him play with some real talent in order to see what comes out, if anything. I think Bennett and Tkachuk are similar in attitude and style which could bode well for the team. I would like to see a line of Tkachuk, Bennett, Frolik to start the season.

In regards to Dube he needs to play C and have a lot of ice to work with, he will get killed playing the Wings. If he tops out as a 3rd line C to replace Backlund and/or Ryan eventually we have done good.

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Just wondering out loud but would Jankowski, Frolik and our 2020-1st move the needle with PHI to get Nolan Patrick C/RW

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22 hours ago, kehatch said:

If Bennett or Mangiapane come out this season and have a positive impact I will be pleasantly wrong.  I just can't get behind either guy.  Bennett has all of the physical tools but doesn't seem to have the IQ to bring it together.  Mangiapane has loads of IQ but is lacking the physical tool set to be a real impact player. Jut my opinion obviously, and I would be really happy to be wrong.  . 

 

The guy I can get behind is Dube.  I think this guy has the brains and the skill set to make a real impact.  Possibly in a top 6 role, but certainly in a bottom 6 defensive role. 

 

How pissed would you be if we $1.25-mil x 2 on Mangiapane?

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I think this is the more likely way the Flames are going to move Frolik, for another player who could play a part but they are going to need to take on money.

 

Honestly, i really like this idea. I like Riley Nash and while 2.75 isn't a great contract it's not bad either. He can play 2nd-4th line, kill penalties and is a hard player to play against. Going from 15 goals to 3 is a concern, but his shooting % was also a career low at 2% so he is a decent bounce back candidate who has played for Peters in the past. RS to boot.

 

Calgary gets cap space to complete their off-season, but some Right side depth and Columbus gets out from Nash's 2.75 next year. Seems like a pretty good win/win to me. 

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3 hours ago, The_People1 said:

 

How pissed would you be if we $1.25-mil x 2 on Mangiapane?

 

Not even a little. Me not loving a prospect doesn't mean I don't think the Flames should hold on to an asset. 

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9 hours ago, The_People1 said:

 

How pissed would you be if we $1.25-mil x 2 on Mangiapane?

 

6 hours ago, kehatch said:

 

Not even a little. Me not loving a prospect doesn't mean I don't think the Flames should hold on to an asset. 

 

 

I just don’t think BT is signing them because they need to make a trade. Even though it is obvious, the two contracts place the Flames further into a corner. So say Mangiapane’s contract is the 1m range, that means that the Flames have less cap to work with and thus make them in a higher need to trade someone and then probably get poor value on a deal. 

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Concerning the Riley Nash proposal, personallyni hate the idea. Riley Nash is a worse player than every player on our team and has another year after this one. Frolik is a great defensive player aside from having a moderate scoring touch. I would rather hold off on signing Tkachuk for a month so that we can give him the contract he is asking for. If we waited on signing MT and Mang for 1 month into season, we would be able to sign to get MT for 5 yr at 8.5 aav or less and still sign Mang for 1.4 aav.

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On 9/2/2019 at 3:47 AM, TheBurn said:

Concerning the Riley Nash proposal, personallyni hate the idea. Riley Nash is a worse player than every player on our team and has another year after this one. Frolik is a great defensive player aside from having a moderate scoring touch. I would rather hold off on signing Tkachuk for a month so that we can give him the contract he is asking for. If we waited on signing MT and Mang for 1 month into season, we would be able to sign to get MT for 5 yr at 8.5 aav or less and still sign Mang for 1.4 aav.

 

The CBA is actually designed to prevent this. Cap hit gets prorated so if you want the AVV to be 8.5 you would actually require more than 8.5 in cap space. See William Nylander's cap hit was 10mill last year when he signed mid season. 

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30 minutes ago, cross16 said:

 

The CBA is actually designed to prevent this. Cap hit gets prorated so if you want the AVV to be 8.5 you would actually require more than 8.5 in cap space. See William Nylander's cap hit was 10mill last year when he signed mid season. 

Exactly, because of contract being prorated to actual games played, every game Tkachuk misses, this year’s Cap for Tkachuk rises and the less likely he will play at all this season.  He’s basically got a month to sign.  

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So along the idea of trading Frolik for Riley Nash, what about Frolik for Trevor Van Reimsdyk?

 

Frolik fits the identity that they have started in Carolina, he gives them a guy who can play comfortably in their top 9. He has a cap hit of $4.3m but a salary of only $3m, which probably sits well with the owner.

 

TVR gives us some defensive depth of. The right side. He carries a cap hit of $2.3m and a salary of $2.5m. We would save $2m in cap space. Carolina has lots of RHS D, so losing him isn't much of an issue.

 

Seems to me it would be a good fit all the way around.

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1 hour ago, JTech780 said:

So along the idea of trading Frolik for Riley Nash, what about Frolik for Trevor Van Reimsdyk?

 

Frolik fits the identity that they have started in Carolina, he gives them a guy who can play comfortably in their top 9. He has a cap hit of $4.3m but a salary of only $3m, which probably sits well with the owner.

 

TVR gives us some defensive depth of. The right side. He carries a cap hit of $2.3m and a salary of $2.5m. We would save $2m in cap space. Carolina has lots of RHS D, so losing him isn't much of an issue.

 

Seems to me it would be a good fit all the way around.

 

TVR has never really impressed me, but at this point it's par value for a $4.3m deal.

How about Wallmark for Frolik.

Wallmark is so far just an AHL scoring forward.

Young with potential.

It gives Carolina a usefull player with the experience of a guy like Williams.

A guy that can help your top 9.

He pushes down Necas from the 3rd line and allow them to use MArtinook in the 4th C spot, with Necas taking the RW spot.

 

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It's funny, going into the off season I would have said that defense was the deepest position on the team, but with one injury, I don't know that that can be said anymore.

 

I also have more faith in our young forwards to take another step, so I don't have much worry about the forward group. Another RHS forward would be nice, but not necessary.

 

It is sounding more and more like Valimaki is gone for the season. I was looking forward to having a D core that didn't require much if any sheltering. I am not sure that is going to be the case anymore.

 

That's why I would move Frolik for a bottom pairing defenseman.

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1 hour ago, JTech780 said:

It's funny, going into the off season I would have said that defense was the deepest position on the team, but with one injury, I don't know that that can be said anymore.

 

I also have more faith in our young forwards to take another step, so I don't have much worry about the forward group. Another RHS forward would be nice, but not necessary.

 

It is sounding more and more like Valimaki is gone for the season. I was looking forward to having a D core that didn't require much if any sheltering. I am not sure that is going to be the case anymore.

 

That's why I would move Frolik for a bottom pairing defenseman.

 

If we are trading Frolik for the cap savings I am fine with a cheap depth D as a return. But I don't think its a priority. Our D was strong last season and should be again. We can always use depth, but that can be a cheap camp pick up or a deadline deal. 

 

I don't agree with you that we are good at forward. An upgrade to the third line is the priority Imo. We need another d zone option and I don't think relying on developing prospects to fill that role is the right thing to do. 

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