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Realistic Trade suggestions for improvement

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18 minutes ago, Horsman1 said:

what part of management??? I don't think Treliving has done a very good job .. but I get roasted for even mentioning it on here

 

 

oh buddy...so do I.  But I think it's really people just not appreciating my positive nature

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1 hour ago, jjgallow said:

 

Well, I don't agree, but the nice thing is it's not about Ifs, but whens.   We will win that cup, and we will rebuild.   We're just debating what order it's coming in.

 

If we gun up for the playoffs like many on here want, and you're right....well that would be epic.

 

If we fail hard like we did last year (or worse)....well then it's all going to seem very obvious and we will in fact be forced into a rebuild.   IMHO we should have already started it but I can wait a few more months.

 

If we started the rebuild now, it would in theory be a lot easier and a lot less pain.

 

On the other hand if we start it in the summer, there will be grounds to start it from the management level.  Which is where I feel it needs to start.

 

You are welcome to be disappointed.

The chances of playoffs and beyond are not based on last year's results.

We don;t have a crap goalie waiting to give up juicy rebounds.

We seem to be able to win low scoring games.

 

A rebuild now would take about 5 years.

A retool this summer (after we win the cup) would bring us back in a year or so.

 

We need at least one RW and probably a decent 3/4C..

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1 hour ago, travel_dude said:

 

You are welcome to be disappointed.

The chances of playoffs and beyond are not based on last year's results.

We don;t have a crap goalie waiting to give up juicy rebounds.

We seem to be able to win low scoring games.

 

A rebuild now would take about 5 years.

A retool this summer (after we win the cup) would bring us back in a year or so.

 

We need at least one RW and probably a decent 3/4C..

 

If I am wrong, I will be the happiest guy in the world.   But being wrong doesn't mean making the playoffs, it means doing well in them (disclaimer).

 

Likewise,  if you are "wrong" for lack of better words and it all goes down the tube, I know for a fact once it's forced on us you'd actually be pretty excited about the rebuild process (the drafting, the development, the moves).  As would I.

 

I guess we'll see.

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3 hours ago, Horsman1 said:

what part of management??? I don't think Treliving has done a very good job .. but I get roasted for even mentioning it on here

 

 

I agree! but I get roasted a lot on my ideas too. He has done good, but also only has found good shorter skilled players, and our taller guys are muffins. He has had to buyout almost every free agent he has signed. His best deal may have been Baertschi for a 2nd (Anderson). They've drafted well enough on D and have found NHL players in the draft. We will see. He had good RFA signings but killed all of the good he did with his UFA deals.

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On 1/20/2020 at 9:14 AM, ABC923 said:

I don't think Backlund has much if any trade value.  Wrong side of 30, four years left on an expensive contract, having a down year.  Plus he has a NTC, so there's that.  I know it isn't impossible to get players to waive those, but it's an added challenge.  If you can find someone to take him, great, because he and his 5.35 annual cap hit are hurting our ability to improve our team and we currently are getting very little out of him this year.  Usage is definitely a problem, but I worry the contract may turn into an albatross if his decline continues next year.


 

I actually don’t think he is doing as bad as a lot of us think. If he wasn’t getting the chances he was for most of the year I would have a lot more reason for concern. If he buries the chances we are talking about a completely different season for him and the Flames. It is a what if point, I know. I am just saying he has had the chances and normally helps players be better considering he pushes the play up ice. He was still doing that when they were using him as a C.

 

if there is any ideas of trading him, I think putting him on wing is a bad idea. 
 

I like the idea of going 

 

monahan

lindholm

backlund 

 

as the three C’s 

I would even use Ryan as the #4 if they can find a top RW.

 

i would try One of Ryan, Dube, or Mangiapane on RW with the Monahan line.

 

Gaudreau, Monahan, Dube

Tkachuk, Lindholm, Mangiapane

Bennett, Backlund, Czarnik

Lucic, Ryan, Reider

 

i think there definitely still needs to be an upgrade on RW. 
 

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3 hours ago, jjgallow said:

 

If I am wrong, I will be the happiest guy in the world.   But being wrong doesn't mean making the playoffs, it means doing well in them (disclaimer).

 

Likewise,  if you are "wrong" for lack of better words and it all goes down the tube, I know for a fact once it's forced on us you'd actually be pretty excited about the rebuild process (the drafting, the development, the moves).  As would I.

 

I guess we'll see.

 

We certainly have had bad luck in the playoffs opening rounds.

Then again, when was the last time we had good goaltedning going in and in it?

2008/9.

That's a loooong time ago.

 

I'm sure that if the Oilers make the playoff, Smith will sink them in round one. 

 

Back to us.

Hard to really judge a franchise's ability to wn the cup on only playing retreads when it matters.

Sometimes all it takes is the right goalie in the right stage of his career.

And a coach that makes good decisions.

We've not had both, since.........

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2 hours ago, robrob74 said:

https://www.tsn.ca/video/dreger-the-market-has-shifted-on-defencemen~1882344

 


Dreger seems to think the market has ballooned on D. So let’s do the deals to send Hamonic or/and Brodie for something we need, either a pick of a winger.

 

 

4 ads before the video plays.  JFC man.

 

But tis the season where D are valued assets.  Going into the playoffs, teams planning for a deep run want 8 NHL Dmen.  Those who can play top pair like Brodie are going to be worth a 1st round pick.  Hamonic can get us a 2nd rounder as a top 4 RHS RD insurance/solution.  It doesn't make sense but that's how much it should cost.

 

And we can sign these guys back in the summer if they want to play with the Flames again.  

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6 hours ago, The_People1 said:

 

4 ads before the video plays.  JFC man.

 

But tis the season where D are valued assets.  Going into the playoffs, teams planning for a deep run want 8 NHL Dmen.  Those who can play top pair like Brodie are going to be worth a 1st round pick.  Hamonic can get us a 2nd rounder as a top 4 RHS RD insurance/solution.  It doesn't make sense but that's how much it should cost.

 

And we can sign these guys back in the summer if they want to play with the Flames again.  

 

And I have no real interest in Hamonic after this year.

He declined, whether related to playing with Hanifin or not.

We have to sell at least one.

I don't really care if we are making a run.

Stone isn't a replacement, but he's somedays about as good as Hamonic.

That's a bit of a stretch.

 

I would look at integrating Yelesin sometime after the break.  See what he can do.

He's not a rookie, just a NA rookie.

He doesn't provide offense, but really neither does Hamonic.

Set up the pairs that are most effective and roll them.

Kylington-Brodie might just be a killer pair.

Hanifin-Yelesin.

Gio-Ras.

 

Either that or target a D-man from a 2nd or 3rd pairing from another team.

It costs a 2nd, then so be it.

As long as it's a decent player.

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20 minutes ago, travel_dude said:

 

And I have no real interest in Hamonic after this year.

He declined, whether related to playing with Hanifin or not.

 

what did I miss?  what did he decline ?

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14 hours ago, robrob74 said:

 

I agree! but I get roasted a lot on my ideas too. He has done good, but also only has found good shorter skilled players, and our taller guys are muffins. He has had to buyout almost every free agent he has signed. His best deal may have been Baertschi for a 2nd (Anderson). They've drafted well enough on D and have found NHL players in the draft. We will see. He had good RFA signings but killed all of the good he did with his UFA deals.

 

I do not understand this view and find it to be very sensationalist.  The UFA argument on Treliving is getting way overblown.  His signings:

 

Neal - obviously a failure, but let's also remember that most actually had that as a win. Not totally his fault it didn't work out

Brouwer - Fail

Jonus Hillier: Good. 2nd year wasn't very good but they don't make the playoffs in 15 without him

Frolik: Very good

Raymond: Fail but really no harm done so who cares?

Derek Ryan: Very good

Derek Engelland: Good

Cam Talbot: Pretty good so far

Versteeg: Pretty good IMO

Chad Johnson: good

Austin Czarnik: Pretty meh but really no hard done here either. 

 

The rest of his UFA stuff is all depth guys and players like Jagr,Prout etc that I don't really feel are worth discussing. some worked, some didn't but in all cases the risk was minimal to non existent. Overall, the track record is actually more wins than loses. But, for sure the fact that he went from buying out Brouwer to Neal and is dealing with both is an issue for sure, but to say it kills all the good is IMO really silly. Especially when you consider he just finished building a team capable of the 2nd best regular season in Franchise history. 

 

Show me a GM and I'll show you multiple misses in UFA. It is the nature of the game. 

 

 

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Hamonic is what he is a steady 2nd pairing RHD.Not known for his offensive skill level but he brings effort and hard work and a little grit to this team. I would like to see him extended 3.5m x 3 years.

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1 hour ago, travel_dude said:

 

And I have no real interest in Hamonic after this year.

He declined, whether related to playing with Hanifin or not.

 

1 hour ago, phoenix66 said:

what did I miss?  what did he decline ?

 

Hamonic never declined.

 

Because he never lived up to expectations to begin with.

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2 hours ago, The_People1 said:

 

 

Hamonic never declined.

 

Because he never lived up to expectations to begin with.

 

 

I would agree with this. It's hard to use the word decline because Hamonic's first season as a Flame was pretty bad and he's actually been better since. 

 

I think the desire to move Hamominc, at least for me, is that they have a replacement already in Anderson who I think is actually already better then Hamonic. Hamonic would make sense to retain on a 1 or 2 year deal but he'll get better offers than that in FA. The investment of cap dollars there doesn't make much sense. 

 

 

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3 hours ago, The_People1 said:

 

 

Hamonic never declined.

 

Because he never lived up to expectations to begin with.

ohhh  im real slow on the brain today.. i thought he meant like he declined an offer .. misunderstood that he declined in play 

 

hard to say really , i don't think anybody thought we were getting a Norris candidate.. he is what he is , a good 2nd pair reliable D minded dman 

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10 minutes ago, phoenix66 said:

ohhh  im real slow on the brain today.. i thought he meant like he declined an offer .. misunderstood that he declined in play 

 

hard to say really , i don't think anybody thought we were getting a Norris candidate.. he is what he is , a good 2nd pair reliable D minded dman 

 

I remember reading Hamonic declined to discuss a contract during the season... if I remember correctly.  So there's that too.  Or was it Brodie...

 

In any event, I don't believe there are contract talks.  We got Rasmus Andersson extended out of the blue.  I don't expect Brodie and Hamonic to strike new deals.  I expect them to go to UFA in which case, BT has some tough decisions to make.

 

 

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1 hour ago, phoenix66 said:

ohhh  im real slow on the brain today.. i thought he meant like he declined an offer .. misunderstood that he declined in play 

 

hard to say really , i don't think anybody thought we were getting a Norris candidate.. he is what he is , a good 2nd pair reliable D minded dman 

 

I think this year's version is worse than last year.

Reliable last year, up and down this year.

Maybe it's comfort level of the pair, but I hate to see Hanifin trying to hold the line, because when he gets beat, it's a two on one and a goal against.

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From what i recall on Hamonic is his camp was disappointed with the original offers/discussion from the Flames so they put it off until the end of the year. 

 

On Brodie they traded initial offers and were so far apart they have not really re engaged since. That's probably a month old or so. 

 

Francis seems pretty adamant he feels the Flames want Hamonic back but no one else is picking that up. Sometimes Francis has tidbits, sometimes he speaks his opinion that does not come from sources. 

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5 hours ago, cross16 said:

 

I do not understand this view and find it to be very sensationalist.  The UFA argument on Treliving is getting way overblown.  His signings:

 

Neal - obviously a failure, but let's also remember that most actually had that as a win. Not totally his fault it didn't work out

Brouwer - Fail

Jonus Hillier: Good. 2nd year wasn't very good but they don't make the playoffs in 15 without him

Frolik: Very good

Raymond: Fail but really no harm done so who cares?

Derek Ryan: Very good

Derek Engelland: Good

Cam Talbot: Pretty good so far

Versteeg: Pretty good IMO

Chad Johnson: good

Austin Czarnik: Pretty meh but really no hard done here either. 

 

The rest of his UFA stuff is all depth guys and players like Jagr,Prout etc that I don't really feel are worth discussing. some worked, some didn't but in all cases the risk was minimal to non existent. Overall, the track record is actually more wins than loses. But, for sure the fact that he went from buying out Brouwer to Neal and is dealing with both is an issue for sure, but to say it kills all the good is IMO really silly. Especially when you consider he just finished building a team capable of the 2nd best regular season in Franchise history. 

 

Show me a GM and I'll show you multiple misses in UFA. It is the nature of the game. 

 

 


Brouwer and Neal/Lucic and the other trade buyouts kill the team. I get he got good deals on some signings but he is still running dead cap. I hold too high of a standard obviously. But I want this team to win a cup. 
 

then the mix is bad as there’s no cohesion from line to line to play good hockey.

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🤷🏻‍♂️
 

I have faith in who’s running the ship, but I’m losing faith in the crew. I’ve said it before that I’m not always my 100% best at work, but the way almost the entire team collectively checks-out of games is both deliberate and alarming. Need more players who give a darn. 

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17 hours ago, travel_dude said:

 

We certainly have had bad luck in the playoffs opening rounds.

Then again, when was the last time we had good goaltedning going in and in it?

2008/9.

That's a loooong time ago.

 

I'm sure that if the Oilers make the playoff, Smith will sink them in round one. 

 

Back to us.

Hard to really judge a franchise's ability to wn the cup on only playing retreads when it matters.

Sometimes all it takes is the right goalie in the right stage of his career.

And a coach that makes good decisions.

We've not had both, since.........

 

 

entirely agree, except maybe the luck part.   Not a big believer in luck and I don't think management should be either.

 

Edmonton needs a goalie for sure.  Let's see what they do at the trade deadline.  They won't make a move until the last minute due to salary issues.

 

We need...well...  we can let that debate continue ha

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1 hour ago, jjgallow said:

 

 

entirely agree, except maybe the luck part.   Not a big believer in luck and I don't think management should be either.

 

Edmonton needs a goalie for sure.  Let's see what they do at the trade deadline.  They won't make a move until the last minute due to salary issues.

 

We need...well...  we can let that debate continue ha

 

In a playoff series, not sure I subscribe to the idea of luck either - certain teams do well against others (regardless of records) by the way they match up. 

 

Where I do believe in luck (or misfortune) is how our high drafted players (when really needed) haven't lived up to anywhere near expectation. We can go back to Corey Stillman (mostly injuries) the amazing Rico Fata, Sven Baertschi etc. But for me, it really began with Michael Backlund, at 24th overall, we needed him to be the center Iginla was searching for even if not his first 2 years, but certainly Iginla's last 2 years as a Flame, because if Backlund could have been that, at that point, this team maybe went a different direction. (We all know the return for Iginla was nothing). But time continues to pass and today for me it's the misfortune (bad luck) that Sam Bennett couldn't amount to at least a 20 goal guy, with grit - that we sorely need. This year its Jankowski, who with his big frame has always been butter soft, but who cares when you are a great penalty killer, getting shorthanded goals and at least contributing 14 goals per season.... 

 

For the Flames, you have top draft picks in place who aren't living up to their draft position and while every team has these - our rebuild was in hindsight too quick as we really needed another 2 assets (guaranteed) to catapult this team into the top 25 percentile of teams in the league.  Imagine if we would have had a top 5 - 10 pick in 2015, what this team would look like with a Mikko Rantanen or Kyle Connor or Brock Boeser. For sure, this keeps you out of the FA market for guys like Brouwer and Neal (and now subsequently Lucic) and instead you use that FA money on shorter smaller contracts, maybe bringing back a guy like Hathaway etc. 

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2 hours ago, jjgallow said:

 

 

entirely agree, except maybe the luck part.   Not a big believer in luck and I don't think management should be either.

 

Edmonton needs a goalie for sure.  Let's see what they do at the trade deadline.  They won't make a move until the last minute due to salary issues.

 

We need...well...  we can let that debate continue ha

 

Luck as in we lose Gio before the playoffs.

Luck as in we lose Regher in the opening round.

The other side of the coin is seeding.

CHI in 2008/9 missing the best D-men (Regher, Warriner, Gio)

SJS in 2007/8.

Anaheim in 2 of the last series we lost.

Dumb luck.

 

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5 hours ago, travel_dude said:

 

Luck as in we lose Gio before the playoffs.

Luck as in we lose Regher in the opening round.

The other side of the coin is seeding.

CHI in 2008/9 missing the best D-men (Regher, Warriner, Gio)

SJS in 2007/8.

Anaheim in 2 of the last series we lost.

Dumb luck.

 


we also got lucky and made the playoffs against all odds with that Hartley team and should not have. Teams fell asleep at the wheel and let the comeback kids comeback a lot. Then we got lucky that year and played a dropping Vancouver team that had their one last push to the playoffs where we went to the 2nd round. Great series! But nowhere else in any of the other divisions  in the NHL do you see this happening. 
 

this year, we are also lucky that the pacific has so much parity. But I think that Vancouver just might pass us on the where we are at in the rebuilds and we started a few years earlier.

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On 1/23/2020 at 4:41 PM, robrob74 said:


Brouwer and Neal/Lucic and the other trade buyouts kill the team. I get he got good deals on some signings but he is still running dead cap. I hold too high of a standard obviously. But I want this team to win a cup. 
 

then the mix is bad as there’s no cohesion from line to line to play good hockey.


“kill the team” because of less then 2 million in dead cap and 1 overpaid 3rd liner a situation that countless other teams also have? See the sensationalism here? I hate dead cap space as much as anyone but to say it’s killing the team or undoes the amount of good is imo just unfair. If that’s your standard I don’t think you’ll ever find a GM you will like. 
 

I also don’t agree on the mix. I think this is a very good team with plenty of talent and plenty of pieces to make it work. I see a team that isn’t buying in and isn’t all working in the same direction and that to me is on players not the GM. 

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