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2 hours ago, robrob74 said:


 

I am saying the further from experiencing and watching the games the stats begin to get misleading due to the fact they’re seen as stats. Their play has been Satoshi Nakamoto all season with a game here and there where they looked good and the stretch when Ward took over. So yes the stats say they have won but the play hasn’t been remotely playoff worthy. Worthy to get in, sure. Worthy of a possible sweep or 5 game exit. Yes.

 

now that we get more distanced from the games we will only see the stats and not remember the play. Now we get to use the stats for arguing a point that the team isn’t half bad. But they’ve been terrible for over a full season now, and have timidly started to play, and still quite inconsistent.

 

The team’s history and core tells me that this is what they are and I don’t believe a good team. A good team doesn’t take almost a year off. 

Have you watched the rest of the league as close this year?  What is it about Edmonton, Vegas, Vancouver and Arizona that tells you they are much better than the Flames.  Edmonton has either had one of their goalies going most of the year and a top PP, but have also had both goalies show stretches of being very very bad and are an awful team 5 on 5.  If Vegas is amazing why did they go sub .500 for 2 months and need to fire their coach, how good is Vancouver if they fell below Calgary once Markstrom went down, how good is Arizona without Kuemper.  You seem to use the "Full 60" term more than anybody here, but my guess is that no team wins more than 75% of their games with a full 60 effort.  I'm not singing their praises, but they are where they deserve to be which is a middle of the pack, but not near the same level as the bottom guys.  Nobody is calling them cup favourites, but this isn't a bad team either if you disagree do me a favour and watch Detroit's season, follow that with Ottawa, maybe LA and San Jose too for good measure, that would be some good time killing until next season, after you do that come with facts on how the Flames are on those teams level.

 

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4 hours ago, robrob74 said:


 

I am saying the further from experiencing and watching the games the stats begin to get misleading due to the fact they’re seen as stats. Their play has been Satoshi Nakamoto all season with a game here and there where they looked good and the stretch when Ward took over. So yes the stats say they have won but the play hasn’t been remotely playoff worthy. Worthy to get in, sure. Worthy of a possible sweep or 5 game exit. Yes.

 

now that we get more distanced from the games we will only see the stats and not remember the play. Now we get to use the stats for arguing a point that the team isn’t half bad. But they’ve been terrible for over a full season now, and have timidly started to play, and still quite inconsistent.

 

The team’s history and core tells me that this is what they are and I don’t believe a good team. A good team doesn’t take almost a year off. 

 

Since Jan 1st of 2019 (a sample size of over 100 games) the Flames have the 9th most wins, 10 most points and 9th best point %. Pretty terrible indeed. I'm not sure what your benchmark is for what is a "good team" but it's looking a little unrealistic to me. 

 

To each their own but i'm not following this logic and i would argue the exact opposite. I think you get a clearer picture and judgement when you step back from the moment and take our your emotions as emotion almost always clouds your judgement. 

 

But listen I get it there are many that don't believe in this team and that's fine, they've burned their bridge there (pun intended). I'm not here saying this team is a finished product, is a great team, or doesn't require changes and in fact I've said the opposite. I do think changes are needed but blow it up because they are terrible? That's incorrect IMO. 

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I feel BT has put together a pretty good team even though we don't have a superstar ie (Crosby, Kutcherov, McDavid). What I feel we are lacking is a strong coaching staff one that gives this team an identity. Hopefully that area of need is addressed.

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5 hours ago, cross16 said:

 

Since Jan 1st of 2019 (a sample size of over 100 games) the Flames have the 9th most wins, 10 most points and 9th best point %. Pretty terrible indeed. I'm not sure what your benchmark is for what is a "good team" but it's looking a little unrealistic to me. 

 

To each their own but i'm not following this logic and i would argue the exact opposite. I think you get a clearer picture and judgement when you step back from the moment and take our your emotions as emotion almost always clouds your judgement. 

 

But listen I get it there are many that don't believe in this team and that's fine, they've burned their bridge there (pun intended). I'm not here saying this team is a finished product, is a great team, or doesn't require changes and in fact I've said the opposite. I do think changes are needed but blow it up because they are terrible? That's incorrect IMO. 


 

there you go with stats again. Go read the game day threads for most of the season. Thing I am beginning to realize about a lot of Flames fans is just how homer they are. I thought Canuck fans were bad. We aren’t quite Oiler yet, but bordering on it.

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2 hours ago, redfire11 said:

I feel BT has put together a pretty good team even though we don't have a superstar ie (Crosby, Kutcherov, McDavid). What I feel we are lacking is a strong coaching staff one that gives this team an identity. Hopefully that area of need is addressed.


 

I can agree with this. The hard thing is the Bennett pick didn’t go well. That could be huge for us if he panned out. And we thought we were getting the better player, between him and Draisaitl. Bennett isn’t quite Yakupov. It he is close in terms of not meeting expectations. We thought we were getting a first overall.

 

I get people don’t like criticism of our own team. You’re right, they have potential considering there’s no superstars. Honestly, the only thing holding Johnny back is himself. He can net 85+ points yearly if he had the drive. And I am being modest, thinking he could average 90 - 95.

 

but that’s the biggest problem with the team, the desire to win, or to play ahead. They start slow and chase too much. 
I understand games are not 60 minute efforts. It is a cliche phrase. But there should be consistent effort when you’re a good team. Even if the played somewhere between 30-40 minute games I think they’d fair better and not chase. A part of exciting hockey is the challenge so I do expect the other team to have a say. But imagine how they’d be if they didn’t play just a bit to either mount a comeback or ten minutes and score a bunch to eek a win. 
 

I will give the team a good grade in the last 15 or so. They started to look like they’re trying to play as a team.

 

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9 hours ago, redfire11 said:

I feel BT has put together a pretty good team even though we don't have a superstar ie (Crosby, Kutcherov, McDavid). What I feel we are lacking is a strong coaching staff one that gives this team an identity. Hopefully that area of need is addressed.

There alot of teams dont have a super star (St. Louis) as theres only so many to go around.  This team that had an incredible first 2/3 of last year, a barely average last 1/3, and a disaster of a playoff had the same coach and the same core players.  It seems a feeling of indifference and/or complacency has taken over the majority of the team which brings up the argument that no one is ever really going to agree upon......can a coach teach the players to overcome it  or is it  on the players to figure it out? 

 

Theres never really been a heart and soul player that can rally the troops since Iginla. This maybe an unpopular idea but even a change of captaincy could help. The only player that I think has the personality and attitude to do that is Chucky.

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8 hours ago, robrob74 said:


 

there you go with stats again. Go read the game day threads for most of the season. Thing I am beginning to realize about a lot of Flames fans is just how homer they are. I thought Canuck fans were bad. We aren’t quite Oiler yet, but bordering on it.

Yes the be all end all indicator.  No offence but sports fans online overreact to everything negative, just for an exercise read other teams forums or social media on a game by game basis and you'll find many people saying what you say about the Flames about their team.  I'm a fan of both the Raptors and Chiefs so got to enjoy 2 recent championship runs.  Both of them if you go on the internet throughout their games during the run and it was all doom and gloom, just watch the first 20 minutes of the Chiefs/Texans playoff game and you will see a team that makes a ton of stupid mistakes yet overcome them by being much better in the next 40, the internet wasn't kind during the first 20 though.  Sure in both cases there are few that try to discredit both championship teams, but being a fan of both I could care less.  Blues fans don't care that they were dominated for the beginning of games 7 either.  Perhaps we need to discredit our cup because we were within inches of losing in round 1, to a much worse team.  I get not liking moral victories, but why create moral losses.  Saying the team isn't that bad and doesn't need to completely overhaul the organization doesn't make you a homer.

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9 hours ago, robrob74 said:


 

there you go with stats again. Go read the game day threads for most of the season. Thing I am beginning to realize about a lot of Flames fans is just how homer they are. I thought Canuck fans were bad. We aren’t quite Oiler yet, but bordering on it.

 

yes, "stats" like their record? I've never heard of a team's record being considered "stats's". the funny thing is in you wanted to actually get into stats you would show that they actually do demonstrate why the Flames were winning more under Ward and why parts of their game were trending in the right direction. 

 

I don't need to read anything, I was there. I watched the games, i posted in the threads and i'm well aware of how their game, their play and the stats intersect. You seem to want to turn this into an "eye test" vs "stats" argument without realizing that most people, myself included, already use both. Relying on emotion and an opinion in the heat of the moment, over taking a step back and looking at multiple data points, is a really flawed process. 

 

Again no one is claiming the flames are an amazing team so your comment about "homers" is pretty off-based.I'm not really sure how one becomes a homer simply suggesting that their team is good but has some flaws, and some pretty big flaws as well. Especially when there is a bunch of evidence to support it. Homer's don't tend to point out flaws in their own team. You seem to be thinking that many seem to think all is good for the Flames, they are a great team and only have minor issues but literally no one is making that case. 

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BT stated a couple years ago that the team looked emotionally unengaged. If, they could just aquire that upper emotional level they'd probably go pretty dam far. If everyone played like the captain at even 80% of, his emotional level like they should do but dont. They'd crush everyone.

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Flames still did well during the cycle, but this was a guy I thought maybe would be on their list. Mackey appears to be more sought after according to most however. 

 

His teammate, RS dman Josh Manisalco, would still make sense for Flames but based on Treliving's interview it doesn't seem like they are expecting it. 

 

 

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Hey robrob, I see the same things you do. I talk a lot about the give-a-crap o meter, a measurement I wish could be properly assessed and added to player stats, and the lack of it this team shows most often. It’s up and down, it’s out of sync, non-existent, and unstoppable. And this can be all in the span of a single game (lol). Compound that across an 82 game schedule and its enough to make anyone pull out their hair. I agree with you that the eye test doesn’t match some of the statistical data. But here’s the thing, the flames also have some talent. And the talent is what’s contributing to stats. Now, we have to be realistic that this team isn’t going to run the table for a full 82 games giving 100% effort consistently. It’s impossible. Last season we were opportunistic and scored at will, but I could definitely see the details slipping in games we still won. And I share in the frustration that this team is capable of more if they would up their mettle. I’d love for them to take a look at a team like the Boston bruins and develop that kind of consistency in their effort, that kind of expectation game in and game out, and let the hockey gods and nature take its course when it comes to off-games. There was an interview with Bergeron recently (I believe) where he said when he came to the bruins there was an expectation as to your level of play, an expectation that you are accountable to your teammates, and an expectation that you’re going to compete for the playoffs and a potential cup. Anything less isn’t bruins material. And this is something he shows as a leader in the dressing room now. This is something I believe is missing in the flames dressing room. Is it a coach thing? I believe it’s part of it. But I also believe players have it or they don’t. Some are born leaders, some are born followers. I like Gio as a leader, but I think he needs a few more strong leader types in that room. (Tkachuk will get there, not there yet) 

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5 hours ago, lou44291 said:

Hey robrob, I see the same things you do. I talk a lot about the give-a-crap o meter, a measurement I wish could be properly assessed and added to player stats, and the lack of it this team shows most often. It’s up and down, it’s out of sync, non-existent, and unstoppable. And this can be all in the span of a single game (lol). Compound that across an 82 game schedule and its enough to make anyone pull out their hair. I agree with you that the eye test doesn’t match some of the statistical data. But here’s the thing, the flames also have some talent. And the talent is what’s contributing to stats. Now, we have to be realistic that this team isn’t going to run the table for a full 82 games giving 100% effort consistently. It’s impossible. Last season we were opportunistic and scored at will, but I could definitely see the details slipping in games we still won. And I share in the frustration that this team is capable of more if they would up their mettle. I’d love for them to take a look at a team like the Boston bruins and develop that kind of consistency in their effort, that kind of expectation game in and game out, and let the hockey gods and nature take its course when it comes to off-games. There was an interview with Bergeron recently (I believe) where he said when he came to the bruins there was an expectation as to your level of play, an expectation that you are accountable to your teammates, and an expectation that you’re going to compete for the playoffs and a potential cup. Anything less isn’t bruins material. And this is something he shows as a leader in the dressing room now. This is something I believe is missing in the flames dressing room. Is it a coach thing? I believe it’s part of it. But I also believe players have it or they don’t. Some are born leaders, some are born followers. I like Gio as a leader, but I think he needs a few more strong leader types in that room. (Tkachuk will get there, not there yet) 

 

 

I think you understand what I am trying to say. It gets misconstrued because I sound like I am contradicting myself. But I feel like this team is a bit of a contradiction and how you're explaining it is exactly how I feel. To me, they aren't a good team because they don't play like a good team. They have the ability to be a good team, but they don't play as a good team consistently. This team DOES have the talent to do more, but there is something missing. I don't know if it's a missing first liner, or what? But they're missing a leader in the forward ranks. Someone that pushes the group harder. They're still a team where you shut down one guy and you have a good chance of shutting down the rest.

 

I get what you're saying about expectations. They talk like the expectations are there, but they don't work up to it. Maybe it has to do with the message from the top down, just make the playoffs. Playoffs are the expectation, but the mindset of a champion is not. 

 

I also don't expect a 100% effort 100% of the time. It is impossible. I just expect a give a Satoshi Nakamoto factor. I loved the Flames even before the Iginla days when they would fight to the bitter end. They at least tried. So for me, I can see the difference. I get that those teams weren't going to win it, but they fought to the bitter end. 

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On 3/31/2020 at 12:10 AM, robrob74 said:

 

 

I think you understand what I am trying to say. It gets misconstrued because I sound like I am contradicting myself. But I feel like this team is a bit of a contradiction and how you're explaining it is exactly how I feel. To me, they aren't a good team because they don't play like a good team. They have the ability to be a good team, but they don't play as a good team consistently. This team DOES have the talent to do more, but there is something missing. I don't know if it's a missing first liner, or what? But they're missing a leader in the forward ranks. Someone that pushes the group harder. They're still a team where you shut down one guy and you have a good chance of shutting down the rest.

 

I get what you're saying about expectations. They talk like the expectations are there, but they don't work up to it. Maybe it has to do with the message from the top down, just make the playoffs. Playoffs are the expectation, but the mindset of a champion is not. 

 

I also don't expect a 100% effort 100% of the time. It is impossible. I just expect a give a Satoshi Nakamoto factor. I loved the Flames even before the Iginla days when they would fight to the bitter end. They at least tried. So for me, I can see the difference. I get that those teams weren't going to win it, but they fought to the bitter end. 

 

Ya know it's hard to put a finger on the team.  I watch other teams play, and it's not all roses with them either.

I do believe that a good coach would be able to figure out how to make the lines work.

And that's what I see.

A lack of cohesion with the lines.

A lack of having the right lines out against the opposition.

You tend to see better games when on the road because the coach has to line match as if he will face the best line every shift.

Whether he short-shifts the bottom 6 or the players on the ice recognize the opportunity/challenge is not known.

 

A case in point.

A home game.

4th line out with 3rd pairing against a lesser line.

We get owned for the entire shift.

Is it any wonder?

 

We play the worst when we try to physically dominate.

Forget your assignment and just hit a player.

If that's a forecheck, great, or to do it to dislodge the puck, awesome.

 

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On 4/1/2020 at 1:46 PM, travel_dude said:

 

Ya know it's hard to put a finger on the team.  I watch other teams play, and it's not all roses with them either.

I do believe that a good coach would be able to figure out how to make the lines work.

And that's what I see.

A lack of cohesion with the lines.

A lack of having the right lines out against the opposition.

You tend to see better games when on the road because the coach has to line match as if he will face the best line every shift.

Whether he short-shifts the bottom 6 or the players on the ice recognize the opportunity/challenge is not known.

 

A case in point.

A home game.

4th line out with 3rd pairing against a lesser line.

We get owned for the entire shift.

Is it any wonder?

 

We play the worst when we try to physically dominate.

Forget your assignment and just hit a player.

If that's a forecheck, great, or to do it to dislodge the puck, awesome.

 

which system are they playing?? a modified Peter's system?? Because of the circumstance .. most likely.. Is the new coach comfortable with this system>> the Assistants all come from another regime.. certainly not Our current coaches picks.. some are left over from yet a different regime than peter's.. are they comfortable implementing the new modified system?? probably not.. Are the players comfortable??by eye sight.. nope.. This Season is a wash.. Write it off.. Calgary announced today no gatherings at the Saddle dome until at least July.. Take the time now.. Restructure the management for the next 3-5 years and see where we are and what we need going forward.. where are we in the draft plans for this year.. if it happens,, I hope like hell they say Uncle and just completely cancel this season

 

 

 

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Flames have a signing they will likely announce next week. Swedish player.

 

Nothing out there on the player. I had mentioned earlier that Johannes Kinvall would make some sense. RS dman who they've had in camp in previous years. 

 

 

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23 minutes ago, cross16 said:

Flames have a signing they will likely announce next week. Swedish player.

 

Nothing out there on the player. I had mentioned earlier that Johannes Kinvall would make some sense. RS dman who they've had in camp in previous years. 

 

 

 

Kinnvall makes a lot of sense. He lead all skaters under 25 in scoring in the SHL and was 2nd amongst defensemen in league scoring. 

 

If it is Kinnvall, Treliving has done a lot of work recently to shore up the defensive depth in organization.

 

It will be interesting to see what the plan for Kylington is going forward. You have to think the left side will be Giordano, Hanifin and Valimaki next year, and a lot of people are saying that Connor Mackey is real close to playing in the NHL as well. Kylington becomes an interesting asset going forward. Not sure if they keep him or move Hanifin, but I wouldn't be surprised if one of them is gone before the start of next season.

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2 hours ago, JTech780 said:

 

Kinnvall makes a lot of sense. He lead all skaters under 25 in scoring in the SHL and was 2nd amongst defensemen in league scoring. 

 

If it is Kinnvall, Treliving has done a lot of work recently to shore up the defensive depth in organization.

 

It will be interesting to see what the plan for Kylington is going forward. You have to think the left side will be Giordano, Hanifin and Valimaki next year, and a lot of people are saying that Connor Mackey is real close to playing in the NHL as well. Kylington becomes an interesting asset going forward. Not sure if they keep him or move Hanifin, but I wouldn't be surprised if one of them is gone before the start of next season.

 

 

I almost wonder if Kylington would do better as a forward? It's different, I know, but it would allow him to use his speed. But is he more valuable as a D in a trade? I don't think his value is all that high. He's an in-and-out depth NHLer. They have some value to a team, but there are a lot of those out there. But then, we also have a lot of L-side forwards, so there's no spot for him there. And he also plays a soft brand of hockey. I am full of contradictories as I think about it. I am just spewing here. 

 

I just picture him able to skate with the puck up ice with his speed, and he has some dipsy-doodle in his step. But he should have the awareness to back check, which seems to be a problem with this team's forward group. The Flames seem to have a good offensive IQ but no defensive awareness IQ. 

 

Edit:

 

The group you have for next year looks interesting. I really hope Valimaki can stay healthy. He needs the reps to develop. He was already there, and just needed the time. Kylington could be an odd man out. But could he be a part of the succession plan for Gio? Not him of course, but having him as a 3rd pair when Gio retires. Hopefully Hanifin can take a step, and that Valamaki could be the actual succession of Gio. 

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Friedman furthering speculation that it is in fact Kinvall. Been linked to the Flames. If so, very good get. 

 

 

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2 hours ago, JTech780 said:

 

Kinnvall makes a lot of sense. He lead all skaters under 25 in scoring in the SHL and was 2nd amongst defensemen in league scoring. 

 

If it is Kinnvall, Treliving has done a lot of work recently to shore up the defensive depth in organization.

 

It will be interesting to see what the plan for Kylington is going forward. You have to think the left side will be Giordano, Hanifin and Valimaki next year, and a lot of people are saying that Connor Mackey is real close to playing in the NHL as well. Kylington becomes an interesting asset going forward. Not sure if they keep him or move Hanifin, but I wouldn't be surprised if one of them is gone before the start of next season.

 

I agree they need to make a call. As much as I like the asset they can't let what happen to Bennett happen to Kylington. Need to recognize where the asset fits and move him for value if it isn't there. I'm open to it being Hanifin or Kylington, just depends on the return but I think one of them has to go. 

 

I like Kylington more than most because I thought he showed some nice growth last year but go get something for him before he's a waiver fodder. 

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8 minutes ago, cross16 said:

 

I agree they need to make a call. As much as I like the asset they can't let what happen to Bennett happen to Kylington. Need to recognize where the asset fits and move him for value if it isn't there. I'm open to it being Hanifin or Kylington, just depends on the return but I think one of them has to go. 

 

I like Kylington more than most because I thought he showed some nice growth last year but go get something for him before he's a waiver fodder. 

 

 

Something I wonder is, are they both playing not to make mistakes? It looks like they're both trying hard to play a system and both seemed fairly similar in style. It might just be their skating... But for me, it looks like both are thinking too much out there. When Kylington lets his offensive instincts take over, he seems to make a few good plays in the offensive zone, then he gets sat. It's hard to know what the coaches are seeing that we are not. It seems like that with Bennett as well. He seems to look good and then you find out that the coaches weren't happy with his play, I don't remember the game exactly this season, but I listen to the Fan regularly and I think it was after a  game where I thought he played well, that he got benched the next game. Maybe they give the players assignments and if they fail but look good doing it, they are not happy? Didn't meet the criteria?

 

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I completely forgot about Valimaki. Any news? With the season stoppage and everyone starting from scratch again, I wonder if he suits up for us this season after all! 👀

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4 minutes ago, lou44291 said:

I completely forgot about Valimaki. Any news? With the season stoppage and everyone starting from scratch again, I wonder if he suits up for us this season after all! 👀

 

He has been one of the only Flames skating through all this.

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16 hours ago, cross16 said:

 

I agree they need to make a call. As much as I like the asset they can't let what happen to Bennett happen to Kylington. Need to recognize where the asset fits and move him for value if it isn't there. I'm open to it being Hanifin or Kylington, just depends on the return but I think one of them has to go. 

 

I like Kylington more than most because I thought he showed some nice growth last year but go get something for him before he's a waiver fodder. 

 

I think trading Hanifin makes the most sense.

He has some value to him.

He was more impactful in a negative sense than Kylington.

I also think we have seen about 50% of Kylington's potential at the NHL level.

Watched a few replays with him on the ice.

Saw the tings he can fix, plus the things that make him better than Hanifin.

Hanifin can be a trainwreck at times, and his best games are few and far between.

The dollars spent don't justify him.

 

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2 hours ago, travel_dude said:

 

I think trading Hanifin makes the most sense.

 

 

Trading any LD makes sense at this point.  Especially Giordano.

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