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Realistic Trade suggestions for improvement

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33 minutes ago, sak22 said:

I just don't get their desperation for trading Hischier.  New Jersey is setting itself up better by trying to develop a 1-2 punch up the middle, and right now they are in a tough spot with the strength of the division, but what better way to develop guys than to go against Crosby-Malkin, Backstrom-Kuznetsov, Couturier-Giroux on most nights of the year.  If they can use their extra picks well they can take off when the teams like the Pens and Caps fall.  Just adding Gaudreau doesn't make them anymore a threat to the rest of the division next year or the year after, and if they don't show progress I don't think he just sticks around because he's from that state.

 

The main problems I have with expecting a kings ransom for Gaudreau is that many here view him as a 99 point player because that's what he was, the GM's around the league that Brad will be calling will be buying as if he was a 60 point player.  Yes the guy can be dynamic at times and have stretches where he puts up an insane amount of points, but he has prolonged stretches where he is MIA including clutch times, we know it, as it was a hot topic since the end of last season, we're fools to think that GM's and scouts around the league also don't believe he has flaws and don't want to exploit those flaws in trade negotiations.  We can maybe drive up the price with multiple teams offering, but I still think teams have limits for what they'd give up

 

If you are the NJ GM and adding in ownership's desire to make a profit, how can you continue to justify building only through the draft?

The one recent year that they were relevant was when they had Hall.

That was a healthy year for the player, and the dividends paid were huge.

And it was Hall's career season.

 

As a GM, you may not want to give up young productive assets, but they are hoping to trade for a franchise player.

May NJ values Hischier above anything they have or will have.

He's just an example of the level of player you would expect to be part or all of the trade.

 

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15 minutes ago, travel_dude said:

 

If you are the NJ GM and adding in ownership's desire to make a profit, how can you continue to justify building only through the draft?

The one recent year that they were relevant was when they had Hall.

That was a healthy year for the player, and the dividends paid were huge.

And it was Hall's career season.

 

As a GM, you may not want to give up young productive assets, but they are hoping to trade for a franchise player.

May NJ values Hischier above anything they have or will have.

He's just an example of the level of player you would expect to be part or all of the trade.

 

If your aim is to improve you don't do that when you create another hole.  Subtract a centre for a winger isn't the key to improve, especially given the strength of the teams you're chasing.  Sure NJ should want Gaudreau, who wouldn't for the right price, but the price for most teams will likely be futures and or expendable pieces like a Necas.

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1 minute ago, sak22 said:

If your aim is to improve you don't do that when you create another hole.  Subtract a centre for a winger isn't the key to improve, especially given the strength of the teams you're chasing.  Sure NJ should want Gaudreau, who wouldn't for the right price, but the price for most teams will likely be futures and or expendable pieces like a Necas.

 

Yeah, I'm not saying it happens, just what it should reasonably take.

Patching a hole left by a good player is easier in FA than say a franchise player.

If they see Hischier as one, then they don't consider the move.

But they are a longs way from relevancy and from having franchise players aren't they.

Like us taking a risk on futures or a young player with term, they have to be willing to take similar risks.

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2 hours ago, JTech780 said:

IMO Niederreiter isn't at all compareable to Brouwer. Niederreiter is probably slightly overpaid, but only has 2 more years on his deal. He scored 23 goals last year, is a solid two way player and is still only 27. 

 

He is a much better player than being given credit for on here. 

 

Agreed, it's a really bad comparison. Points aside, Brouwer was also not a help anywhere on the ice. He dragged down his teammates and was a liability defensively. He runs hot and cold which is why he will draw criticism for his salary but Niederreiter is a positive player in almost all attributes. 

 

Agree that he is overpaid because you want more production for the salary but at least Niederreiter doesn't hurt you when he's on the ice. 

 

Nino Brouwer.PNG

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1 hour ago, sak22 said:

I just don't get their desperation for trading Hischier.  

 

For me, it's a cap hit thing.  Hischier at $7.25-mil x 7-years is a mistake in hindsight.  Time will tell.

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2 minutes ago, The_People1 said:

 

For me, it's a cap hit thing.  Hischier at $7.25-mil x 7-years is a mistake in hindsight.  Time will tell.

Yeah, but that's a quick buyers remorse considering it was only signed in October.  Yes Shero did sign it, but I don't know if many GM's can give $50M without approval.

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1 minute ago, sak22 said:

Yeah, but that's a quick buyers remorse considering it was only signed in October.  Yes Shero did sign it, but I don't know if many GM's can give $50M without approval.

 

Ya agreed NJ is not "desperate" to trade Hischier.  I just feel if they have a chance to move Hischier for someone of Gaudreau's calibre, then they would... Although it's fair argument that Gaudreau's trade value has dropped significantly this season.

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I am going to just state what I think is the obvious here.

Calgary does a lot of things to appease the fan base.

It's why they traded Ferland and Hammy for Lindholm and Hanifin.

It's why they signed Neal.

 

So trading Gaudreau only makes sense if they get someone they can point to and say look what we got.

I get the trading for futures from a GM perspective.

Or making the cap work or because he won't re-sign.

The decision to trade or not trade him won't be taken lightly.

It will be more than removing a contract uncertainty.

It's the reason why I don't see this happening before the draft.

Unless he is a complete no-show in the playoffs.

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38 minutes ago, The_People1 said:

 

Ya agreed NJ is not "desperate" to trade Hischier.  I just feel if they have a chance to move Hischier for someone of Gaudreau's calibre, then they would... Although it's fair argument that Gaudreau's trade value has dropped significantly this season.

Begs the question, what is Gaudreau's calibre and why have we been discussing trading him. Are we trading him because we don't feel he will resign in 2 years, are we trading him because his next deal won't be at a cap friendly number, or are we trading him because we feel we are upgrading the position (Hall signing, if it happens).  If you are trading him solely on the first reason, you are both devaluing your importance to winning and saying the player isn't going to contribute to you winning.  If we thought we had a legit shot at the cup with Gaudreau as the catalyst, we aren't entertaining that thought.  And if the Flames don't view him as a guy you win with, why do the Devils?

 

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13 minutes ago, sak22 said:

Begs the question, what is Gaudreau's calibre and why have we been discussing trading him. Are we trading him because we don't feel he will resign in 2 years, are we trading him because his next deal won't be at a cap friendly number, or are we trading him because we feel we are upgrading the position (Hall signing, if it happens).  If you are trading him solely on the first reason, you are both devaluing your importance to winning and saying the player isn't going to contribute to you winning.  If we thought we had a legit shot at the cup with Gaudreau as the catalyst, we aren't entertaining that thought.  And if the Flames don't view him as a guy you win with, why do the Devils?

 

 

I think a lot of people have soured on Gaudreau.

Personally, I think it was a down year and last year's playoffs was a team failure.

He didn't do anything remarkable in the playoffs, but then again who did?

Total no-show of Gio among others.

Even Tkachuk was un-Tkachuk.

18 PIMs for a guy who leads the league is penalties drawn differential.

 

If Gaudreau steps up big this year's playoffs, then his value with rocket, but the likelyhood of trading him drops.

For one thing, I don't see why he would be quick to jump ship if he's on a winning team.

But there is the possibility that the GM feels we can't take the next step because Gaudreau is holding us back.

I question that, and suggest there are way more pertinent reasons.

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I don't really know who has "soured" on Gaudreau because i'm seeing some pretty high value in these proposed trades. I don't see anyone who is souring on him or wanting to give him away.

 

We can draw this out, but to me this is not a hard conversation. it comes down to 2 questions:

1. Does Gaudreau want to be here long term? (I don't know the answer to this one but people closer to the team say No) 

2. Are you prepared to give him a contract that makes him your franchise player and in turn build your team around him?

 

You can answer yes to the first one and still no to the 2nd and for me that's it. I think Gaudreau is a very good player, a special talent (especially offensively), but I would not build my team around him and thus I am not prepared to give him the contract he's heading for. Once you reach that decision then it makes more sense to put him out there now than wait because I don't think the value is going up. 

 

For me it has nothing to do with how he has performed or performed this year (in fact i'd argue he played better than the sentiment seems to be here), how he will perform in the playoffs, the fans whatever. All of that emotion clouds what is at the core a pretty easy call IMO. 

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30 minutes ago, sak22 said:

Begs the question, what is Gaudreau's calibre and why have we been discussing trading him. Are we trading him because we don't feel he will resign in 2 years, are we trading him because his next deal won't be at a cap friendly number, or are we trading him because we feel we are upgrading the position (Hall signing, if it happens).  If you are trading him solely on the first reason, you are both devaluing your importance to winning and saying the player isn't going to contribute to you winning.  If we thought we had a legit shot at the cup with Gaudreau as the catalyst, we aren't entertaining that thought.  And if the Flames don't view him as a guy you win with, why do the Devils?

 

 For me it is a little bit of everything.

 

1. My gut feeling is that he won't re-sign and that if we wait he will walk and we won't get anything in return.

 

2. If he does re-sign, we are probably talking about a Panarin type deal, and I think that would be a mistake.

 

3. If we can sign Hall and add in the return for Gaudreau, hopefully a top 6 center. I think we are better off in the short term and the long term.

 

I don't think anyone is saying to trade Gaudreau for the sake of trading him. IMO it's about maximizing assets.

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53 minutes ago, sak22 said:

Begs the question, what is Gaudreau's calibre and why have we been discussing trading him. Are we trading him because we don't feel he will resign in 2 years, are we trading him because his next deal won't be at a cap friendly number, or are we trading him because we feel we are upgrading the position (Hall signing, if it happens).  If you are trading him solely on the first reason, you are both devaluing your importance to winning and saying the player isn't going to contribute to you winning.  If we thought we had a legit shot at the cup with Gaudreau as the catalyst, we aren't entertaining that thought.  And if the Flames don't view him as a guy you win with, why do the Devils?

 

 

All of it.

 

- he's probably gone in 2 years

- he won't take a friendly deal after taking less money last time

- a sideways move to Hall

- he can get us something we need (C/RW)

 

Doesn't have to be just one reason.  Honestly if Hall wasn't connected to the Flames then I don't think we are entertaining trading Gaudreau this seriously.

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17 minutes ago, Thebrewcrew said:

https://pucksandpitchforks.com/2020/06/10/new-jersey-devils-three-trade-packages-for-johnny-gaudreau/amp/4/
 

 

Nothing that interesting here. Trade 2 is the best, but even then it’s an underpayment.

 

Ya not too interested.  The Flames should move Gaudreau for immediate help more than picks... #10 overall in interesting but we need C/RW right now.

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27 minutes ago, JTech780 said:

 For me it is a little bit of everything.

 

1. My gut feeling is that he won't re-sign and that if we wait he will walk and we won't get anything in return.

 

2. If he does re-sign, we are probably talking about a Panarin type deal, and I think that would be a mistake.

 

3. If we can sign Hall and add in the return for Gaudreau, hopefully a top 6 center. I think we are better off in the short term and the long term.

 

I don't think anyone is saying to trade Gaudreau for the sake of trading him. IMO it's about maximizing assets.

What's made it hard is the situation, what happens in the playoffs may still play a major factor.  If the whole thing gets cancelled for good we live in a world where we never know.  Taylor Hall blows a knee and do we still consider going after him, what if we go on a crazy run and win the whole thing with Johnny capturing the Smythe.  If we're having the discussions of being a legit favorite, IMO it is a disaster to trade him because of reason 1. unless there is an upgrade coming.  Players look at organizations like Tampa and St. Louis who will fight to the end with Stamkos and Pietrangelo expiring.  That shows winning and trying to win factors over asset management.  The Tampa Bay Rays are masters of asset management, always trade before free agency or they have to really pay up, always seem to get the better of the trades, and still lack the big one.

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I call BS on the idea of trading Gaudreau to maximize return.

He was nothing to acquire (4th round pick)

He has been on a league and team friendly contract considering his output.

He has had one season where he has missed and games due to injury (broken fingers)

 

And some want to bring in Injury prone Hall (one full season) to replace him or a draft pick that we roll the dice on and hope that pick is close to producing what JG does. I say we roll with him next season and then ask HIM if he will extend or prefer to be traded.

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2 hours ago, Thebrewcrew said:

https://pucksandpitchforks.com/2020/06/10/new-jersey-devils-three-trade-packages-for-johnny-gaudreau/amp/4/
 

 

Nothing that interesting here. Trade 2 is the best, but even then it’s an underpayment.

 

Actually give the writer credit for making reasonable offers, but ya I wouldn't jump at any of those. Potential top 10 pick is nice but that's about the only asset your getting. 

 

As I've said before, Devils are just not a good trade match. Have so little to offer unless they wind up with a pick in the top 6. I'm more intrigued if that is on the table. 

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31 minutes ago, cross16 said:

I don't really know who has "soured" on Gaudreau because i'm seeing some pretty high value in these proposed trades. I don't see anyone who is souring on him or wanting to give him away.

 

We can draw this out, but to me this is not a hard conversation. it comes down to 2 questions:

1. Does Gaudreau want to be here long term? (I don't know the answer to this one but people closer to the team say No) 

2. Are you prepared to give him a contract that makes him your franchise player and in turn build your team around him?

 

You can answer yes to the first one and still no to the 2nd and for me that's it. I think Gaudreau is a very good player, a special talent (especially offensively), but I would not build my team around him and thus I am not prepared to give him the contract he's heading for. Once you reach that decision then it makes more sense to put him out there now than wait because I don't think the value is going up. 

 

For me it has nothing to do with how he has performed or performed this year (in fact i'd argue he played better than the sentiment seems to be here), how he will perform in the playoffs, the fans whatever. All of that emotion clouds what is at the core a pretty easy call IMO. 

 

Well, to respond to you, I think that most trades recognize he has a high value.

That and the fact that they feel we need to recoup the level of talent that would be leaving.

When I say soured, I think that a lot of fans have said the same thing last playoffs and this year.

He plays too soft a game that can be easily exploited.

He can't finish on a breakaway.

He can be a defensive liability.

He's too small to help the team take the next step.

 

I think you see a lot of the games in person (I believe), so I know the buzz in the dome can be measured.

Sitting at home you (not you exactly) can be more critical as to his impact.

You can read a lot of game day posts, as well as other things to know some fans are not happy.

I'm sure you can locate posts in this topic that also suggest trading him would be the best for the team.

Just look at the back and forth in the thread about Gaudreau.

Some fair things said, other things not so much.

 

To be honest, I haven't heard anything from the player that would suggest he doesn't want to be here long term.

We have filled in the blanks there.

As for paying him market value in a few years, that depends on where he is as a team leader.  

To be a franchise player he has to be a driver of the team.

If the GM decides to pull the trigger, then he's doing it on (hopefully) inside information and projections.

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30 minutes ago, redfire11 said:

I call BS on the idea of trading Gaudreau to maximize return.

He was nothing to acquire (4th round pick)

He has been on a league and team friendly contract considering his output.

He has had one season where he has missed and games due to injury (broken fingers)

 

And some want to bring in Injury prone Hall (one full season) to replace him or a draft pick that we roll the dice on and hope that pick is close to producing what JG does. I say we roll with him next season and then ask HIM if he will extend or prefer to be traded.

I think there's a few reasons

 

The Bill Belichick philosophy, it's better to get rid of players a year early rather than a year late. This offseason you can sell 160 games of Gaudreau, by next TDL you are selling 100, the return will be less. His value may be down after a "down" season by his standards, but it will become even less the closer he gets to UFA. 

 

Another reason, this core has remained untouched for 5 seasons and this is a core that has failed to meet expectations. The Flames have won 2 of their last 14 playoff games. I'm not blaming Gaudreau by any means, but when the team struggles that much in the playoffs, changes are bound to happen. 

 

The final reason, I don't think Gaudreau is the guy to build around. Tkachuk is the guy for me. Take nothing away from Gaudreau, he's an elite NHL player, I just think he's a lot like Phil Kessel. A very good player, but not someone I'm building a winner around.

 

 

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This could be why the Flames want Hall, looks like he would fit in seamlessly lol. Someone else to live in Kassian's head

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22 minutes ago, Thebrewcrew said:

I think there's a few reasons

 

The Bill Belichick philosophy, it's better to get rid of players a year early rather than a year late. This offseason you can sell 160 games of Gaudreau, by next TDL you are selling 100, the return will be less. His value may be down after a "down" season by his standards, but it will become even less the closer he gets to UFA. 

 

Another reason, this core has remained untouched for 5 seasons and this is a core that has failed to meet expectations. The Flames have won 2 of their last 14 playoff games. I'm not blaming Gaudreau by any means, but when the team struggles that much in the playoffs, changes are bound to happen. 

 

The final reason, I don't think Gaudreau is the guy to build around. Tkachuk is the guy for me. Take nothing away from Gaudreau, he's an elite NHL player, I just think he's a lot like Phil Kessel. A very good player, but not someone I'm building a winner around.

 

 

 

If Tkachuk is the only guy you build around, then you won't have much of a team.

He core for sure, but not exactly the lynch-pin for offense.

 

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21 minutes ago, travel_dude said:

 

If Tkachuk is the only guy you build around, then you won't have much of a team.

He core for sure, but not exactly the lynch-pin for offense.

 

 

 

I think Tkachuk has loads of talent and IQ but he cannot drive a line all on his own. He might ignite guys to try harder from time to time, but he's not the guy that's actually doing the heavy lifting of getting it up the ice. That's Backlund's and Gaudreau's thing. Tkachuk is very smart and knows to get it off his stick to those guys and he's really good at it. The only problem with his line is Backlund is very sporadic, but he still pushes the play the right way. I don't want to deny how Tkachuk helped to make Frolik and Backlund better, but sometimes skills compliment others very well. I mean, we could say the same for Gaudreau. He's an elite skater, can stick handle in a phone booth around guys, has elite vision, but if others aren't going, there's only so much you can do. I think what I am getting at, is, it's a team game and Tkachuk needs guys around him to enhance what he does. 

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4 minutes ago, robrob74 said:

 

 

I think Tkachuk has loads of talent and IQ but he cannot drive a line all on his own. He might ignite guys to try harder from time to time, but he's not the guy that's actually doing the heavy lifting of getting it up the ice. That's Backlund's and Gaudreau's thing. Tkachuk is very smart and knows to get it off his stick to those guys and he's really good at it. The only problem with his line is Backlund is very sporadic, but he still pushes the play the right way. I don't want to deny how Tkachuk helped to make Frolik and Backlund better, but sometimes skills compliment others very well. I mean, we could say the same for Gaudreau. He's an elite skater, can stick handle in a phone booth around guys, has elite vision, but if others aren't going, there's only so much you can do. I think what I am getting at, is, it's a team game and Tkachuk needs guys around him to enhance what he does. 

 

Well said.

I think he's an underrated leader on the team, but by himself can only do so much.

Backlund hasn;t changed much since the year before Tkachuk joined.

I will add the following.  If you aren't ble to trade Guadreu for another elite player in the making, then you are resigning yourself to being a mediocre team.

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27 minutes ago, travel_dude said:

 

Well said.

I think he's an underrated leader on the team, but by himself can only do so much.

Backlund hasn;t changed much since the year before Tkachuk joined.

I will add the following.  If you aren't ble to trade Guadreu for another elite player in the making, then you are resigning yourself to being a mediocre team.

 

 

Yes, and I think that's all any of us are getting at, is for some reason, this seems like that situation where you either re-sign him, or HAVE to get something for him. I think most of us want Gaudreau on the Flames, but for me he is the one guy that needs to net a return if and when he leaves the Flames organization. 

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