Jump to content
The Official Site of the Calgary Flames
Jessemadnote39

Realistic Trade suggestions for improvement

Recommended Posts

Personally I think the different between the two is arguable at best. What Gaudreau does look better sure but I think it's debatable that's its better. It's a bit of a double edged sword with Gaudreau because the strength of his game can be countered (see Colorado series) and it also leads to the tendency to do too much.

 

If I had to give you an MVP for the Flames forwrad group this year, it wasn't Johnny i was Tkachuk. The gap is not large for me. I think it's also worth pointing out that while yes Backlund is good, Tkachuk's numbers are good with everybody he's played with. 

 

image.png.b1388bde283e623aa7b50233c7b463ad.png

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 minutes ago, cross16 said:

Personally I think the different between the two is arguable at best. What Gaudreau does look better sure but I think it's debatable that's its better. It's a bit of a double edged sword with Gaudreau because the strength of his game can be countered (see Colorado series) and it also leads to the tendency to do too much.

 

If I had to give you an MVP for the Flames forwrad group this year, it wasn't Johnny i was Tkachuk. The gap is not large for me. I think it's also worth pointing out that while yes Backlund is good, Tkachuk's numbers are good with everybody he's played with. 

 

image.png.b1388bde283e623aa7b50233c7b463ad.png

 

 

 

To be fair, he is playing with good players. Lindholm, Gaudreau (PP) and Backlund. I think he does it very well, but I am just saying he gets the puck in the right spots which allows guys like Lindholm and Backlund to do what C's are supposed to do. I just don't want to sound like I am denying that he's a very good player, because he is! We are lucky Tkachuk landed with us!

 

I wonder who the Flames would have drafted had the Canucks picked him instead. I don't think it's easy enough to just say we'd have taken Joulevi. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, robrob74 said:

 

 

To be fair, he is playing with good players. Lindholm, Gaudreau (PP) and Backlund. I think he does it very well, but I am just saying he gets the puck in the right spots which allows guys like Lindholm and Backlund to do what C's are supposed to do. I just don't want to sound like I am denying that he's a very good player, because he is! We are lucky Tkachuk landed with us!

 

But Gaudreau isn't playing with good players? Those numbers are all at 5 on 5 BTW.

 

I get what you are saying and yes no disagreement there that Gaudreau can create more on his own. LIke I said they have different games I just don't think it's at clear cut that because Gaudreau can create more on his own it makes him the better player. I think at the end of the day, while different, the end result isn't that dissimilar. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, cross16 said:

 

But Gaudreau isn't playing with good players? Those numbers are all at 5 on 5 BTW.

 

I get what you are saying and yes no disagreement there that Gaudreau can create more on his own. LIke I said they have different games I just don't think it's at clear cut that because Gaudreau can create more on his own it makes him the better player. I think at the end of the day, while different, the end result isn't that dissimilar. 

 

I would be ibterested in seeing a player like Necas or Hiscier to see the relative impact of the player vs Gaudreu.

Don't need to do it, but just curious.

 

What your posted stats does show s that the impact of both players is mostly positive.

GA has always been troubling, but then again McD is probably worse.

So, I don't think either one is quote franchise, they are two players that make a good team.

Hence my desire to keep both or get a player of equal stature in return.

We know it's a team game, and an iffy goalie or useless D pairing can impact as much or more.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, cross16 said:

 

But Gaudreau isn't playing with good players? Those numbers are all at 5 on 5 BTW.

 

I get what you are saying and yes no disagreement there that Gaudreau can create more on his own. LIke I said they have different games I just don't think it's at clear cut that because Gaudreau can create more on his own it makes him the better player. I think at the end of the day, while different, the end result isn't that dissimilar. 

 

 

And I don't mean to make it seem like you're wrong either. I do wonder how many points Tkachuk could have if he played with a better finisher. Backlund is the kind of player that has the ability to be a finisher, but for whatever reason he double clutches and hits posts or misses the net completely (albeit, hitting the post is recorded as a missed shot). Tkachuk could easily have about 10 more points if Backlund and his other line mates would score on their grade-A chances. And maybe that's the thing, maybe it's what blinds me. 

 

They should put VR camera's on all of the players. Then when they review the tape they can see how a player like Tkachuk views the game. It could be good schooling for guys like Bennett and Jankowski. The thing about those two is I think they have it in them to be good 3rd liners but something holds them back. To me it's between the ears (not necessarily the IQ either). I feel like they're different players than they were when they started in the league, like they think the game too much. Their 2nd Nature or a hockey 6th sense is missing or deteriorating.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, robrob74 said:

They should put VR camera's on all of the players. Then when they review the tape they can see how a player like Tkachuk views the game. It could be good schooling for guys like Bennett and Jankowski.

 

Interesting suggestion.

I have never been able to figure out Bennett.

It may not be as simple as who he plays with.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, travel_dude said:

 

I would be ibterested in seeing a player like Necas or Hiscier to see the relative impact of the player vs Gaudreu.

Don't need to do it, but just curious.

 

What your posted stats does show s that the impact of both players is mostly positive.

GA has always been troubling, but then again McD is probably worse.

So, I don't think either one is quote franchise, they are two players that make a good team.

Hence my desire to keep both or get a player of equal stature in return.

We know it's a team game, and an iffy goalie or useless D pairing can impact as much or more.

 

 

And I think you can have a guy like Gaudreau, who is a very good back-checker, if you have that good 2-way center. Monahan is trying to be more of that and it hurt because he was concentrating on one portion of the game and neglected the part that has made him successful. Lindholm is supposed to be that guy, but I feel like a line needs two guys that can play 200Ft. What was missing this year was not having a guy like Lindholm on their line all the time and Gaudreau's lack of back-check. I think the relentlessness really made Johnny super dangerous for most of last year. 

 

You and Cross are selling me on Tkachuk more. I love Tkachuk. I think it is his skating that holds him back for me. It would be great if he could play on a line with a guy like Monahan, but the fact they both skate as well as the other, is the part that is difficult. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Another thing to consider when comparing Gaudreau and Tkachuk, zone starts. Tkachuk sees more D-zone starts than Gaudreau. You can trust Tkachuk in the dying stages to protect a lead, Gaudreau you can’t. There’s value in that IMO, even if it means a less offensive production.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
27 minutes ago, robrob74 said:

They should put VR camera's on all of the players. Then when they review the tape they can see how a player like Tkachuk views the game. It could be good schooling for guys like Bennett and Jankowski. The thing about those two is I think they have it in them to be good 3rd liners but something holds them back. To me it's between the ears (not necessarily the IQ either). I feel like they're different players than they were when they started in the league, like they think the game too much. Their 2nd Nature or a hockey 6th sense is missing or deteriorating.

 

Just not possible, or practical.  VR captures the image straight ahead but our eyes and brains react to peripheral vision that the camera may or may not pick up.  I also suspect if you put the VR camera right on the cornea (future tech), that you would simply get motion sickness and throw up watching the tape.  Eyes would move too fast.  For super stars and extremely high IQ players, their eyes may only need to scan its peripherals for a millionth of a second and that's all it takes for their brain to see an open teammate and calibrate the timing of a pass to them.  The eyes are mostly not looking at the open player.  Useless information for 99.99% of regular players because you either have it or you don't.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Cameras on corneas.

Blech.

I think you would need to have a nose-cam.

The camera tracks your eye movement as a small cursor

Even that doesn't track what your brain tells you.

You tell your brain to do function X.

Some of it is the IQ part of hockey, but other parts is instinct.

The player might end up thinking "what was I doing?".

 

I think the X and O's review of game tape might be the best approach.

SN does a good job of it some nights.

I wish the player watched it some times.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, travel_dude said:

Cameras on corneas.

Blech.

I think you would need to have a nose-cam.

The camera tracks your eye movement as a small cursor

Even that doesn't track what your brain tells you.

You tell your brain to do function X.

Some of it is the IQ part of hockey, but other parts is instinct.

The player might end up thinking "what was I doing?".

 

I think the X and O's review of game tape might be the best approach.

SN does a good job of it some nights.

I wish the player watched it some times.

 

Ya cameras on players are not very useful.  So much of the game is "feel"... Like, you look left and then look away to deceive the opponent.  You anticipate a second into the future in your head and then you do a blind pass over to the left side and it's a perfect pass tape to tape.  Cameras can't catch everything.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
35 minutes ago, The_People1 said:

 

Ya cameras on players are not very useful.  So much of the game is "feel"... Like, you look left and then look away to deceive the opponent.  You anticipate a second into the future in your head and then you do a blind pass over to the left side and it's a perfect pass tape to tape.  Cameras can't catch everything.

 

I liked the spots they do during intermission some games.

They highlight the player and show how he reacted during a play.

The only thing is it's only that one player and it's a good play 9/10.

It's more of a rah rah segment than anything constructive.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

How about Gaudreau for Anthony Cirelli + Erik Cernak?  Two players pending RFA that Tampa may have trouble extending.  Also, Tampa wants to go all in for the Cup.

 

Cirelli has some skills/speed and could be a 20G 40A 2nd line Center.  Perhaps not as high a ceiling as Necas but better than Reinhart and plays Center.  Plus, only 22-years-old would give us contract control.  Could probably extend for 4 or 5-years at $5-mil.

 

Cernak I really like.  He's a 23-year-old version of David Savard/Brett Pesce very stud defender.  Doesn't put up the points but gives us a big tough defender that we've been missing.  Yet, he's a great skater for his size.  Kassian kicked him in the chest with his skate and got suspended so Cernak is ready to face Kassian a few more times every season.  Would be great.  We need guys like him... Hamonic was supposed to be this guy but failed hard.  We could get him signed to about $3.5-mil for 3-years.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, The_People1 said:

How about Gaudreau for Anthony Cirelli + Erik Cernak?  Two players pending RFA that Tampa may have trouble extending.  Also, Tampa wants to go all in for the Cup.

 

Cirelli has some skills/speed and could be a 20G 40A 2nd line Center.  Perhaps not as high a ceiling as Necas but better than Reinhart and plays Center.  Plus, only 22-years-old would give us contract control.  Could probably extend for 4 or 5-years at $5-mil.

 

Cernak I really like.  He's a 23-year-old version of David Savard/Brett Pesce very stud defender.  Doesn't put up the points but gives us a big tough defender that we've been missing.  Yet, he's a great skater for his size.  Kassian kicked him in the chest with his skate and got suspended so Cernak is ready to face Kassian a few more times every season.  Would be great.  We need guys like him... Hamonic was supposed to be this guy but failed hard.  We could get him signed to about $3.5-mil for 3-years.

 

I think TBL is going to face some very serious decisions about the future next season.

They have 76m committed and only 10/3/2 players signed.

They are ripe for teams picking up players without sending back salary.

Cernak may be a target for us, but we have to get creative.

They are going to have to ditch Palat, Johnson and/or Kilorn as it is.

Trading them 2 years of Gaudreau doesn't help their cap one bit.

Besides, there's that whole "it was in" thing.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, The_People1 said:

How about Gaudreau for Anthony Cirelli + Erik Cernak?  Two players pending RFA that Tampa may have trouble extending.  Also, Tampa wants to go all in for the Cup.

 

Cirelli has some skills/speed and could be a 20G 40A 2nd line Center.  Perhaps not as high a ceiling as Necas but better than Reinhart and plays Center.  Plus, only 22-years-old would give us contract control.  Could probably extend for 4 or 5-years at $5-mil.

 

Cernak I really like.  He's a 23-year-old version of David Savard/Brett Pesce very stud defender.  Doesn't put up the points but gives us a big tough defender that we've been missing.  Yet, he's a great skater for his size.  Kassian kicked him in the chest with his skate and got suspended so Cernak is ready to face Kassian a few more times every season.  Would be great.  We need guys like him... Hamonic was supposed to be this guy but failed hard.  We could get him signed to about $3.5-mil for 3-years.

The exact type of trade I could see BT trying to do. 

 

It's just really tricky for TB to pull it off. TB has a ton of full No-trade's, I can't see anyone wanting to leave. Great weather and playing on a contender.

 

TB would probably want Kylington, to play 3rd pair mins for cheap.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
15 hours ago, robrob74 said:

 

 

And I don't mean to make it seem like you're wrong either. I do wonder how many points Tkachuk could have if he played with a better finisher. Backlund is the kind of player that has the ability to be a finisher, but for whatever reason he double clutches and hits posts or misses the net completely (albeit, hitting the post is recorded as a missed shot). Tkachuk could easily have about 10 more points if Backlund and his other line mates would score on their grade-A chances. And maybe that's the thing, maybe it's what blinds me. 

 

 

 

It's a good argument and I do get what you are saying, nor do I think you were putting down Tkachuk. There is no question the styles of their games are quite different and I can understand why people would point to Gaudreau being the better driver of play. There is some truth to that, i'm just saying that I think the gap is smaller than most and for me it's been closing season by season. 

 

But don't get me wrong, Gaudreau is VERY good at driving offense but I also argue Tkachuk's game in all 3 zone is better. End of the day the process for both players is different, but the end result is pretty close when you consider all factors. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, The_People1 said:

How about Gaudreau for Anthony Cirelli + Erik Cernak?  Two players pending RFA that Tampa may have trouble extending.  Also, Tampa wants to go all in for the Cup.

 

Cirelli has some skills/speed and could be a 20G 40A 2nd line Center.  Perhaps not as high a ceiling as Necas but better than Reinhart and plays Center.  Plus, only 22-years-old would give us contract control.  Could probably extend for 4 or 5-years at $5-mil.

 

Cernak I really like.  He's a 23-year-old version of David Savard/Brett Pesce very stud defender.  Doesn't put up the points but gives us a big tough defender that we've been missing.  Yet, he's a great skater for his size.  Kassian kicked him in the chest with his skate and got suspended so Cernak is ready to face Kassian a few more times every season.  Would be great.  We need guys like him... Hamonic was supposed to be this guy but failed hard.  We could get him signed to about $3.5-mil for 3-years.

 

I get where you are going with this, but this type of trade would be frustrating to take for me. I like both players but their are high floor/low ceiling type players that are safe. Good players don't get me wrong, but for me Cirelli is not a top 6 forward so your trading a high end talent for 2 good but not great pieces. 

 

Just not the style of trade I think you make. They did this with Hamilton and I don't think you can make a pattern of this as your will just stay mediocre

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
30 minutes ago, cross16 said:

 

I get where you are going with this, but this type of trade would be frustrating to take for me. I like both players but their are high floor/low ceiling type players that are safe. Good players don't get me wrong, but for me Cirelli is not a top 6 forward so your trading a high end talent for 2 good but not great pieces. 

 

Just not the style of trade I think you make. They did this with Hamilton and I don't think you can make a pattern of this as your will just stay mediocre

 

If Cirelli is not a 2nd line Center then I'll take the proposal back.  One thing we want to accomplish trading Gaudreau is getting a 1/2 line Center or RW.  Second priority is RD.  This was a suggestion to get both done.

 

I like what Cernak brings but maybe we have some of that in Forbort... Though yet to be seen.  Forbort is big but not aggressively agitating.  Cernak gets into opponents faces and is RHS RD.  If Hamonic and Brodie are both on their way out then RD is a critical area to rebuild.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
40 minutes ago, The_People1 said:

 

If Cirelli is not a 2nd line Center then I'll take the proposal back.  One thing we want to accomplish trading Gaudreau is getting a 1/2 line Center or RW.  Second priority is RD.  This was a suggestion to get both done.

 

I like what Cernak brings but maybe we have some of that in Forbort... Though yet to be seen.  Forbort is big but not aggressively agitating.  Cernak gets into opponents faces and is RHS RD.  If Hamonic and Brodie are both on their way out then RD is a critical area to rebuild.

 

And to be clear I really like Cirelli. I think he has the potential to wind up as one of the better defensive centers in the game but I just have never seen enough offence in him to warrant anything more than than that 30-40 point really good defensive center. I have not watched him as much recently so someone could change my mind there, but coming up through junior/minors his game was not screaming offence. But his ability to play defense and shutdown players is outstanding. 

 

Completely agree with the approach just not sure these players are high end enough but I could be wrong. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, cross16 said:

 

I get where you are going with this, but this type of trade would be frustrating to take for me. I like both players but their are high floor/low ceiling type players that are safe. Good players don't get me wrong, but for me Cirelli is not a top 6 forward so your trading a high end talent for 2 good but not great pieces. 

 

Just not the style of trade I think you make. They did this with Hamilton and I don't think you can make a pattern of this as your will just stay mediocre

 

 

Just your description of this reminds me of the Fleury deal, and to some extent the Iginla one. Albeit, the Flames got Reghr, but I feel like they should have gotten at least another good player in that deal. They got a lot of 3rd or 4th liners in that deal. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, cross16 said:

 

And to be clear I really like Cirelli. I think he has the potential to wind up as one of the better defensive centers in the game but I just have never seen enough offence in him to warrant anything more than than that 30-40 point really good defensive center. I have not watched him as much recently so someone could change my mind there, but coming up through junior/minors his game was not screaming offence. But his ability to play defense and shutdown players is outstanding. 

 

Completely agree with the approach just not sure these players are high end enough but I could be wrong. 

 

 

When would you say the Flames should be relegating Backlund to the 3rd line? I honestly don't mind him as a 2nd liner. Although it would be better if he were knocking in at a better clip. His last bunch of games before the league shut down really shows that he has that ability to get points regularly. I would prefer a 55-65 point 2nd liner. Backlund is almost there, but seems more of a 50-55 guy. If he could get to that level, I don't mind him in that #2 for a few more years if he can continue to shut other team's bests down, which I think if he continues in that role, playing a guy like Lindholm on their line could be better, or getting someone more hard-nosed with offensive upside. But that's difficult to find. 
 

But I think having a guy like Cirelli would be good to target for the 3rd line. I like Ryan, but we need to be a bit harder in that bottom 6. They've been good. WOW, I think I like defensive hockey haha! Although, my theory is get the puck out and be in the opponents end. Play smart and score more goals than they do. 

 

If the team keeps Johnny, then I would want another Lindholm level player in the top 6. I like Mangiapane, but I think he can still score on the 3rd line and give good offence there. Which this team kind of needs, a threat from the 3rd line.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think Cirelli would be a great player to target.

He was getting selke buzz this season so unless Tampa finds a way to offload Johnson, Palat, Killorn I doubt they'll be able to resign him.

I wouldn't trade Gaudreau for him though.

I am in the camp that we would need something just as impactful in return for him.

Hes not a perfect player by any means but he is an elite offensive talent and those do not grow on trees.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, robrob74 said:

 

 

When would you say the Flames should be relegating Backlund to the 3rd line? I honestly don't mind him as a 2nd liner. Although it would be better if he were knocking in at a better clip. His last bunch of games before the league shut down really shows that he has that ability to get points regularly. I would prefer a 55-65 point 2nd liner. Backlund is almost there, but seems more of a 50-55 guy. If he could get to that level, I don't mind him in that #2 for a few more years if he can continue to shut other team's bests down, which I think if he continues in that role, playing a guy like Lindholm on their line could be better, or getting someone more hard-nosed with offensive upside. But that's difficult to find. 
 

But I think having a guy like Cirelli would be good to target for the 3rd line. I like Ryan, but we need to be a bit harder in that bottom 6. They've been good. WOW, I think I like defensive hockey haha! Although, my theory is get the puck out and be in the opponents end. Play smart and score more goals than they do. 

 

If the team keeps Johnny, then I would want another Lindholm level player in the top 6. I like Mangiapane, but I think he can still score on the 3rd line and give good offence there. Which this team kind of needs, a threat from the 3rd line.

 

Cirelli is a good target I agree, just not by trading Gaudreau. 

 

To answer you first question, it's hard to project how players age. I've made this argument before but I think Backlund is that center you are looking for. Yes he only puts up 50-55 points but it's because of the lack of PP time. More PP time and opportunities and i think you'd have the 60 plus point center you'd want. 

 

I don't see why he would fall off in the next couple seasons but it's always so hard to project. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
46 minutes ago, cross16 said:

 

Cirelli is a good target I agree, just not by trading Gaudreau. 

 

To answer you first question, it's hard to project how players age. I've made this argument before but I think Backlund is that center you are looking for. Yes he only puts up 50-55 points but it's because of the lack of PP time. More PP time and opportunities and i think you'd have the 60 plus point center you'd want. 

 

I don't see why he would fall off in the next couple seasons but it's always so hard to project. 

 

Backlund is so good that if only he can finish, then he'd be a 40-goal scorer every season.  He generates that many high quality chances.  But alas, shoots it at the goalies chest every freaking time.  If not, then 3 feet over the crossbar.  Vintage Backlund.

 

More PP time just means more frustration and more wasted opportunities.  Doesn't increase output.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

×
×
  • Create New...