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Realistic Trade suggestions for improvement

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2 hours ago, flames-fan-in-jets-land said:

You're not but a few seem to think that a superstar goalie is the magic bullet that will fix everything. Fixes are needed everywhere so the $ needs to be spread out.

 

 

 

2 hours ago, Thebrewcrew said:

 

 

Not sure the credibility of this source, but another Kuemper/Flames link. 


 

god dammit if the Flames use another draft pick on a goalie!!! The future is dying a slow death if that’s the case.

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Comment about Holtby but more importantly a GM calling the goalie market "unusually deep", which bodes well for the Flames if they are going the external route. 

 

 

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47 minutes ago, robrob74 said:

Ya, and that’s the thing, the Flames could look great and have middling defensive numbers but when the going gets tough and teams put the pressure on, they get walked all over, get scored on at the end of periods. In the playoffs they’ve shown not able to handle certain times of games. Sure the defensive numbers look ok, but it’s the times and the way they lose games that make a difference in the playoffs. 

 

for me it’s the all-round. When the Flames give up a puck in the wrong time it hangs goalies out to dry. Plus, I feel other teams know the Flames give up these kinds of chances and the game plan is to bide their time. Or when needed they apply pressure and the Flames fold.

 

i don’t deny the numbers, they’re there, but they only tell half of the story.
 

 

I will say this.  When our team gives up an odd man rush or breakaway, we seem to get scored on a lot.

Talbot at the top of his game prevented these goals.

Same with Rittich.

But they weren't there all season or all playoffs.

We make mistakes as often as any team.

We just seem to ge burned more.

 

I think what bothers me is D-men trying to do too much with the shot and less with the shooter.

Box them out and let the goalie see everything.

We didn't do that nearly enough.

Instead, we had guys adding a screen.

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41 minutes ago, robrob74 said:

 


 

god dammit if the Flames use another draft pick on a goalie!!! The future is dying a slow death if that’s the case.

 

I doubt it would be anything like a pick.

Yeah I know ARI is missing a lot, but they also have half a team.

They need players.

And they need to cut salary in big places.

A guy like Ryan fits their needs.

Or a swap of Hanifin for OEL.

Half their D is over 30.

 

Maybe we could swap Garland for Bennett.

And Ryan for Keumper.

And OEL for Hanifin.

 

Would be an interesting mix of players.

 

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Below is a quick chart with basic goalie analytics. The thing that jumps out to me right away is that the guys who played behind great defensive systems Khudobin, Kuemper and Greiss all have great stats, which I guess shouldn't be surprising. Markstrom really jumps out as being better than I thought. Murray and Holtby, two Cup winners, look even worse than I thought. Andersen's HDSV% looks really bad, but then you look at what team he plays for and it makes sense, they don't have anyone front of the net to clear rebounds or players. Rittich is middle of the road in most categories, which IMO would make him a solid 1B/Backup. 

 

Going off these stats, the goalies we should be looking at are Lehner, Markstrom, Kuemper, and Andersen. Khudobin and Greiss have great stats but they still make nervous because of their age and lack of starting pedigree. 

 

Player Team GP TOI SV% HDSV% LDSV% Avg. Shot Distance Avg. Goal Distance
Anton Khudobin DAL 30 1329.68 0.947 0.852 0.982 37.73 19.19
Cam Talbot CGY 26 1170.12 0.925 0.806 0.975 36.98 20.94
Braden Holtby WSH 48 2108.83 0.905 0.786 0.966 36.76 20.75
Darcy Kuemper ARI 29 1432.45 0.932 0.841 0.985 36.71 19.59
Frederik Andersen TOR 52 2457.73 0.915 0.805 0.974 36.53 19.46
Marc-Andre Fleury VGK 49 2301.88 0.915 0.811 0.968 36.16 20.31
Thomas Greiss NYI 31 1304.33 0.922 0.841 0.956 36.09 23.31
David Rittich CGY 48 2215.58 0.916 0.836 0.971 35.57 20.60
Matt Murray PIT 38 1790.85 0.904 0.828 0.967 35.44 25.01
Robin Lehner CHI, VGK 36 1645.78 0.926 0.820 0.985 35.13 17.38
Jacob Markstrom VAN 43 1966.68 0.925 0.836 0.969 35.07 20.69
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52 minutes ago, travel_dude said:

 

I doubt it would be anything like a pick.

Yeah I know ARI is missing a lot, but they also have half a team.

They need players.

And they need to cut salary in big places.

A guy like Ryan fits their needs.

Or a swap of Hanifin for OEL.

Half their D is over 30.

 

Maybe we could swap Garland for Bennett.

And Ryan for Keumper.

And OEL for Hanifin.

 

Would be an interesting mix of players.

 


 

you could possibly throw Kylington into the deals for added D depth.

 

Hanifin, Kylington, Ryan, Rittich

for 

Kuemper, OEL? 
 

is that enough salary savings for them? 

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2 hours ago, travel_dude said:

 

I doubt it would be anything like a pick.

Yeah I know ARI is missing a lot, but they also have half a team.

They need players.

And they need to cut salary in big places.

A guy like Ryan fits their needs.

Or a swap of Hanifin for OEL.

Half their D is over 30.

 

Maybe we could swap Garland for Bennett.

And Ryan for Keumper.

And OEL for Hanifin.

 

Would be an interesting mix of players.

 

IMHO those are both fireable offences.

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2 hours ago, travel_dude said:

 

I doubt it would be anything like a pick.

Yeah I know ARI is missing a lot, but they also have half a team.

They need players.

And they need to cut salary in big places.

A guy like Ryan fits their needs.

Or a swap of Hanifin for OEL.

Half their D is over 30.

 

Maybe we could swap Garland for Bennett.

And Ryan for Keumper.

And OEL for Hanifin.

 

Would be an interesting mix of players.

 

I think there's a possibility that the Flames and Coyotes could connect on something big.

 

They have some interesting players

 

OEL- I'm not doing this unless they take Gio. I don't really want OEL, but if it were to happen, they would need to take Gio. Otherwise too much money tied up in LHD. I'm also not moving Hanifin for OEL.

Kuemper- I'm biased because I was able to watch him a lot as a Red Deer Rebel, I really like him. That being said, I don't really want to give up a 1st for him. Maybe, I'd be ok with a 21 1st with some protection on it. Don't really want to move 19th though.

Schmaltz- Friedman has said that he doesn't think ARI is thrilled with him. RHS RW, 6 more years at 5.8. Career .60-.66pt/g player.

Garland- cost will be high. IMO he's the best trade chip they have. Gets you 20 goals at a shade over league minimum.

 

 

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1 hour ago, Thebrewcrew said:

I think there's a possibility that the Flames and Coyotes could connect on something big.

 

They have some interesting players

 

OEL- I'm not doing this unless they take Gio. I don't really want OEL, but if it were to happen, they would need to take Gio. Otherwise too much money tied up in LHD. I'm also not moving Hanifin for OEL.

Kuemper- I'm biased because I was able to watch him a lot as a Red Deer Rebel, I really like him. That being said, I don't really want to give up a 1st for him. Maybe, I'd be ok with a 21 1st with some protection on it. Don't really want to move 19th though.

Schmaltz- Friedman has said that he doesn't think ARI is thrilled with him. RHS RW, 6 more years at 5.8. Career .60-.66pt/g player.

Garland- cost will be high. IMO he's the best trade chip they have. Gets you 20 goals at a shade over league minimum.

 

 

 

That's a player i would be super interested in but holy crap did the Coyotes give him a horrible contract. The cap hit is good but the dollars paid out in the final 3 years are 7.5, 6.95 and then 8.5 million. 

 

As a player he'd actually be a really good acquisition if the Flames were looking to move Monahan. Fairly similar profiles and I could him fitting well alongside Gaudreau but giving them more in the 2 way game and speed. 

 

But price better reflect that contract. If the Flames wanted to do something big with the Coyotes then I think Schmaltz/Keumper are 2 very good targets at the right prices.  Chychrun would be amazing but i doubt they move him.  I don't really have interest in anybody else

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1 hour ago, flames-fan-in-jets-land said:

IMHO those are both fireable offences.

 

Here's the problem.

Bennett hasn't added a lot of offense in the regular season.

He's playing (at best) 3rd line C.

We have Ryan and Backlund.

 

Garland is a scoring forward.  Bennett is the semtimental favorite that is known for good playoffs.

On a bad team, Garland still scored 22 goals this season and led the team in goals.

He's on a cheap contract for this season.

 

OEL for Hanifin has to come with something to balance out the costs.

Retained salary.

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5 minutes ago, cross16 said:

Trading Hanifin for OEL should be approached with extreme caution....

OEL hanifin.PNG

That scares the heck out of me.

 

Again, If I was BT, I'd have absolutely zero interest in OEL unless they are taking Gio. 

 

I understand that Gio, even at his age is superior analytically, but I'm just not doing Hanifin for OEL. He costs just about half as much and is 6 years younger. I would rather bet on Hanifin to improve. 

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2 minutes ago, Thebrewcrew said:

That scares the heck out of me.

 

Again, If I was BT, I'd have absolutely zero interest in OEL unless they are taking Gio. 

 

I understand that Gio, even at his age is superior analytically, but I'm just not doing Hanifin for OEL. He costs just about half as much and is 6 years younger. I would rather bet on Hanifin to improve. 

 

Agreed.

 

I don't think improvement is likely although I do think Andersson would help bring out a better Hanifin than Hamonic did. I do think OEL is the better player but I don't think the gap is that large so when you consider contract it make way more sense to me to see if Hanifin can improve. 

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OEL does not push the needle for me, he is much like we have older over paid place holders.  We need a goalie that is sound but or D coverage and turnovers need cleaned up first.  We need Defensive Dman and a better system for our D to jump into the rush.  Facts are Gio is no longer 1st pairing and Brodie never was, but we do have to aquire indivduals that can play in the top pairing, not sure we have that in the depth charts. 

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Hey, if they want a fire sale, bring it on.  How about Lawson Crouse? Big body, decent production for a bottom 6 forward. Offer up a lower prospect that can play on a bad team that cost under a million, plus a 4th.

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Michael Russo is reporting on The Athletic that Guerin is getting calls and is even actively shopping Matt Dumba.

 

They want forwards and scoring. Primarily centers. 

 

I think we should be in on Dumba. Not sure what it will cost, but I would be willing to do something like Backlund for Dumba.

 

Maybe Gaudreau for Dumba and a young player like Greenway, Eriksson Ek, Kunin, Addison.

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Dumba would check all of the boxes for BT IMO. RHS, has term, King Clancy winner

 

I think Jordan Greenway has been available for a while in MIN. He seems to be have fallen out of favour in MIN.

 

I'd probably want a pick swap as well, 9th for 19th.

 

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1 hour ago, Thebrewcrew said:

Dumba would check all of the boxes for BT IMO. RHS, has term, King Clancy winner

 

I think Jordan Greenway has been available for a while in MIN. He seems to be have fallen out of favour in MIN.

 

I'd probably want a pick swap as well, 9th for 19th.

 

 

I would rather Kunin over Greenway myself. Kunin is a competitor and a nasty piece of work. He is a RHS RW/C, 22 years old. He can play in all situations.

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10 hours ago, travel_dude said:

 

I will say this.  When our team gives up an odd man rush or breakaway, we seem to get scored on a lot.

Talbot at the top of his game prevented these goals.

Same with Rittich.

But they weren't there all season or all playoffs.

We make mistakes as often as any team.

We just seem to ge burned more.

 

I think what bothers me is D-men trying to do too much with the shot and less with the shooter.

Box them out and let the goalie see everything.

We didn't do that nearly enough.

Instead, we had guys adding a screen.

the underlying issue is the same year after year.. we almost always are on the wrong end of the takeaway/give away stat.. Forwards make the defence look bad.. and defense are hard on the goalies as they are never set.. The forwards need to learn and practice team defense if we are to ever get out of this cycle

When Kipper was here.. you could hear him yell at the defencemen to get the bleep.. away from the front of the net so he could see the shot.. Push them wide.. leave the midd

le open

 

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55 minutes ago, Horsman1 said:

the underlying issue is the same year after year.. we almost always are on the wrong end of the takeaway/give away stat.. Forwards make the defence look bad.. and defense are hard on the goalies as they are never set.. The forwards need to learn and practice team defense if we are to ever get out of this cycle

When Kipper was here.. you could hear him yell at the defencemen to get the bleep.. away from the front of the net so he could see the shot.. Push them wide.. leave the midd

le open

 


 

the numbers say a different thing, like what Cross quoted about the D, but this is how I see it too. I feel that the team hasn’t really played as a full unit for years. I don’t know if that’s possible anymore. But aside from one period of hockey they haven’t gone on all cylinders. Some say it’s goaltending, but I think it’s the whole team going together, including the goalies. 

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18 minutes ago, robrob74 said:


 

the numbers say a different thing, like what Cross quoted about the D, but this is how I see it too. I feel that the team hasn’t really played as a full unit for years. I don’t know if that’s possible anymore. But aside from one period of hockey they haven’t gone on all cylinders. Some say it’s goaltending, but I think it’s the whole team going together, including the goalies. 

well the ways I's sees it..  pretty decent collection of hockey players and good citizens but in no way a team nor constructed like a team.. too many similar parts playing the same careful way and out of pos

ition

 

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13 hours ago, JTech780 said:

Michael Russo is reporting on The Athletic that Guerin is getting calls and is even actively shopping Matt Dumba.

 

They want forwards and scoring. Primarily centers. 

 

I think we should be in on Dumba. Not sure what it will cost, but I would be willing to do something like Backlund for Dumba.

 

Maybe Gaudreau for Dumba and a young player like Greenway, Eriksson Ek, Kunin, Addison.

 

I would pass personally. Honestly if you are looking for a player like Dumba you might as well just sign Tyson Barrie. Very similar profiles in that they are awesome at moving the puck, good PP adds, but both struggle in their own end. That's not a profile I think the Flames should target, they  need more security in their own end especially losing Brodie. 

 

There are definitely positives Dumba would bring (RS, physical, PP) I just don't think it makes sense to pay the price it will likely take given the fit on the d core right now. 

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8 hours ago, robrob74 said:


 

the numbers say a different thing, like what Cross quoted about the D, but this is how I see it too. I feel that the team hasn’t really played as a full unit for years. I don’t know if that’s possible anymore. But aside from one period of hockey they haven’t gone on all cylinders. Some say it’s goaltending, but I think it’s the whole team going together, including the goalies. 

 

Actually they really don't. the numbers that I posted really only show that the Flames are very good at limited high danger chances (ie protecting the slot) and making life easier on their goalies and that was really my only point. As i said there are improvements the Flames can make defensively and I would agree giveaway/takeaways is one. I'ts tough to quote these stats because the tracking of them is poor but the Flames would seem to rank around the middle of the league in terms of their takeaway differential. 

https://morehockeystats.com/teams/givetake

 

If you dive into the stats it will show the that Flames, take away high danger chances very well, generate them at an above avg rate but everything else they do at a very average rate. The stats would agree with you that the team is inconsistent and rarely fired on all cylinders this season.

 

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Calgary is going to be linked to all goalies so I don't think we can read into these rumors so much. 

 

I like Markstrom and think he is a rare number 1 goalie in this league so to acquire him for only cap space/money is appealing. i don't really like a long term deal (ie more than 3-4 years) but the target make sense but I'm also not paying him 6mill AAV or above so if he wants that then hard no. 

 

Have said that if the plan is to really try and win the majority of this group, which it sure sounds like it is, then a 5 year deal also is not terrible. I think the last year or two could hurt but by then Gio and Lucic are off the books and Backlund would either be done or only have a year left. So there is certainly flexibility there to minimize the risk. The other advantage is given Markstrom didn't really become a number one until recently this isn't a situation where he's been overworked since a young age. 

 

 

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