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Calgary Flames Drafting and Development: Your Analysis

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why are you so many people down on our devolopment? 

 

Ferland, Jooris, brodie, granlund, bouma all played in significant time in the AHL, and for the most part are all turning into competent NHLers. Monahan could end up being the best player out of his draft year, same with bennett. Hickey, kylington and rasmus andersson could all end up being steals in the past couple years of drafting. Just as some examples.

 

Agreed.  Gio, JH, Brodie, Monahan and Bennett are all homegrown and look to be elite or potentially elite talent.  And who cares if JH went the college route and Bennett/ Monahan went right to the big club.  All three turned pro with the Flames who did a great job bringing them in.

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But we didn't develop Gaudreau, Boston College did. Giordano developed in Calgary and in Europe.

Brodie is the only one our system has developed out of those you mention.

I think the biggest problem is developing a player or two for the top 6. We didn't develop Gaudreau.

I think that is the main focus of this thread because we are seeing a lack of high end talent in our system that wasn't a top 10 pick.

The Flames are still developing Gaudreau. Just via the NHL. And what you are seeing in this thread is there is a lot of talent on our team outside of the top 10.

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why are you so many people down on our devolopment? 

 

Ferland, Jooris, brodie, granlund, bouma all played in significant time in the AHL, and for the most part are all turning into competent NHLers. Monahan could end up being the best player out of his draft year, same with bennett. Hickey, kylington and rasmus andersson could all end up being steals in the past couple years of drafting. Just as some examples.

 

There is reason to be skeptical about our farm system and development at the farm level, specifically.  There is less of that skepticism at the NHL level.

 

Monahan could end up being the best player out of his draft year but that's development at the NHL level, which, Hickey, Kylington, and Anderson may never get the luxury of enjoying.  In fact Kylington is in the AHL right now (cringe).  Many high picks who has played in the AHL hasn't panned out.  Some of our best products are the ones who have by-passed the AHL completely.  So sending prospects to the AHL for development makes one reach for Pepto Bismol to take care of that sick feeling in their stomach.

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But we didn't develop Gaudreau, Boston College did. Giordano developed in Calgary and in Europe.

Brodie is the only one our system has developed out of those you mention.

I think the biggest problem is developing a player or two for the top 6. We didn't develop Gaudreau.

I think that is the main focus of this thread because we are seeing a lack of high end talent in our system that wasn't a top 10 pick.

It's true..it'd be like crediting the Oilers for "developing" McDavid. You just can't teach natural hockey sense and skill. Teams can really only control the development/transition into becoming a professional athlete. How a player responds and translates it unto the ice is what can seperate the stars from everyone else.

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In defense of Darryl Sutter though, he helped convince the Flames ownership group to snap out of their madness and re-launch their own farm team.  Prior to Sutter's arrival, the Flames closed down Saint John Flames and began sharing a farm team with the Carolina Hurricanes in Lowell.  They weren't even in full control of their own player development.

 

So, even though Sutter's draft era was completely forgettable, he left us with the legacy of our own farm system and he deserves some credit in this topic for that.

Sutter deserves respect for sure, he coached us to game 7 of the cup finals! He brought us Kipper, and as u mentioned implemented a farm system. We had Dion during his best years, he made blockbuster deals with Jokinen and J Bo. He helped make the Flames respectable again.

On the flip side..he mortgaged our future by trading away 1,2,3 Rd picks like they were candy. That same farm team he helped establish lacked confidence because played got buried there as Sutter got shortsighted with a win NOW mentality. He was stuck in the past,relied too heavily on aging vets to stay competitive like Tony Amonte and Owen Nolan..God help us! Overall he did a lot of good and some bad for this organization. No denying he's been the most successful coach we've had since 1989.

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There is reason to be skeptical about our farm system and development at the farm level, specifically.  There is less of that skepticism at the NHL level.

 

Monahan could end up being the best player out of his draft year but that's development at the NHL level, which, Hickey, Kylington, and Anderson may never get the luxury of enjoying.  In fact Kylington is in the AHL right now (cringe).  Many high picks who has played in the AHL hasn't panned out.  Some of our best products are the ones who have by-passed the AHL completely.  So sending prospects to the AHL for development makes one reach for Pepto Bismol to take care of that sick feeling in their stomach.

Sven might be the biggest example of things not working out. Ortio falling on his face wasn't pleasant either. T-spoon was thought to be ready 2 years ago and seems to be regressing (in some eyes). Granlund was probably hoped to be further along, Porrier is stuttering a bit, etc. Whether the expectation was too high or our development inadequate is difficult to discern.

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Sven might be the biggest example of things not working out. Ortio falling on his face wasn't pleasant either. T-spoon was thought to be ready 2 years ago and seems to be regressing (in some eyes). Granlund was probably hoped to be further along, Porrier is stuttering a bit, etc. Whether the expectation was too high or our development inadequate is difficult to discern.

Every team has more misses them hits.

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I think the Flames are taking way too much heat for Sven. YOu know what the Canucks did when they acquired him? Sent him to the AHL. He played a whopping 5 games at the NHL level for Vancouver and never topped more then 14 mins of ice time, so never above the 3rd line. You know what they did on one than one occasion this this season? They made him a healthy scratch. HIs Avg ice time this season is just under 13 mins and since his last injury its 15 mins. 

 

I'm not going to get into the whole "expectations" thing with Baertschi becuase that's well documented and we don't need to discuss that here. But my point is I don't think you can hold up Baertschi as an example of the Flames development system not working  and in fact you could argue the opposite. The Canucks didn't do anything different than the Flames had already been doing with Baertschi. 

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Of course there's concern over what looks to be regression down in the A but I'm going to wait another year or two here before worrying. There was a lot of transition going on with new players being added, injuries happening at inopportune times, the team basically mirrored everything that happened to the Flames this year.  They made a serious change in locale and playing schedule etc... I want to see how things settle before becoming leery about the state of our development.  Last year they were way better so I'm not sure it's as much coaching/development as it is situational change, heightened expectations and confidence.

 

Drafting is another tough nut to crack as every year is different, we can hope for all around wins every year but I think this is just a false predication. I honestly have the feeling that our drafting is much better since Treliving joined and now has full understanding of the state of the team compared to when he was 1st hired.

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I think the Flames are taking way too much heat for Sven. YOu know what the Canucks did when they acquired him? Sent him to the AHL. He played a whopping 5 games at the NHL level for Vancouver and never topped more then 14 mins of ice time, so never above the 3rd line. You know what they did on one than one occasion this this season? They made him a healthy scratch. HIs Avg ice time this season is just under 13 mins and since his last injury its 15 mins.

I'm not going to get into the whole "expectations" thing with Baertschi becuase that's well documented and we don't need to discuss that here. But my point is I don't think you can hold up Baertschi as an example of the Flames development system not working and in fact you could argue the opposite. The Canucks didn't do anything different than the Flames had already been doing with Baertschi.

How can you not? You have to use Baertschi in the conversation because he was a part of the organization for his whole ELC, aside from the TDL when we traded him. You can't dismiss it just because the Canucks did similar things with him.

The one thing they didn't do was publicly bad mouth the kid. Plus, after awhile they sheltered him and you prove that point with the minutes he is getting. They're living with his game which we never did. They're getting rewarded now, playing him with Horvat, after sheltering them both.

In a sense, the Canucks are therefore developing Baertschi better than we ever did...

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How can you not? You have to use Baertschi in the conversation because he was a part of the organization for his whole ELC, aside from the TDL when we traded him. You can't dismiss it just because the Canucks did similar things with him.

The one thing they didn't do was publicly bad mouth the kid. Plus, after awhile they sheltered him and you prove that point with the minutes he is getting. They're living with his game which we never did. They're getting rewarded now, playing him with Horvat, after sheltering them both.

In a sense, the Canucks are therefore developing Baertschi better than we ever did...

I don't buy that and I will use Backlund as an example. Sutter seen that defense was the weakest part of his game and kept sending him down then bringing him up on the 4th line in a checking role. Tough love but it made Backlund the responsible player he is today. Baertschi wasn't getting the message that his game had a lot of weaknesses and eventually the organization didn't want him anymore. I don't think the Flames falied him , I think he failed himself.

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How can you not? You have to use Baertschi in the conversation because he was a part of the organization for his whole ELC, aside from the TDL when we traded him. You can't dismiss it just because the Canucks did similar things with him.

The one thing they didn't do was publicly bad mouth the kid. Plus, after awhile they sheltered him and you prove that point with the minutes he is getting. They're living with his game which we never did. They're getting rewarded now, playing him with Horvat, after sheltering them both.

In a sense, the Canucks are therefore developing Baertschi better than we ever did...

 

 

For all we know how he is performing now is because of everything that he was taught on the Heat, however, just because he's getting an opportunity in a fresh environment doesn't mean we didn't develop him properly.  I don't think he ever showed he was better than a player on our roster the last couple years, without going back and watching all the times he played, he always seemed disinterested and making mistakes that he just couldn't put aside, I can't ever remember him back-checking or fighting for a puck he had just lost, much like Taylor Hall who watches as the puck enters his zone and he's off on a change.  Not a good way to instill confidence in you.  He did have his opportunities to play, it was just meant to be that a fresh scene made things better because there was no history there.  Again I could be totally wrong on this it was just the feeling I have.

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I think they failed each other. It is a business and everyone is different. Tough love doesn't work for everyone. That's where they handled him wrong. Some players get motivated in other ways.

Yes Baertschi was entitled, but the organization also needed to handle him differently.

I compare it to they way they handled Monahan who the coddled and was BH's secret love child. I get that they needed to keep him up or send back to the OHL, but they lived with a lot of mistakes with Monahan and extremely sheltered him, even though I thought Monahan looked really tentative in his game. I am saying they could've done that with Baertschi too.

I heard Baertschi tried to put in time but was sent down, brought up and sent down. I just think the Flames mishandled him as much as he didn't follow through on his end, which is part of development. The Flames failed to develop Baertschi.

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I think they failed each other. It is a business and everyone is different. Tough love doesn't work for everyone. That's where they handled him wrong. Some players get motivated in other ways.

Yes Baertschi was entitled, but the organization also needed to handle him differently.

I compare it to they way they handled Monahan who the coddled and was BH's secret love child. I get that they needed to keep him up or send back to the OHL, but they lived with a lot of mistakes with Monahan and extremely sheltered him, even though I thought Monahan looked really tentative in his game. I am saying they could've done that with Baertschi too.

I heard Baertschi tried to put in time but was sent down, brought up and sent down. I just think the Flames mishandled him as much as he didn't follow through on his end, which is part of development. The Flames failed to develop Baertschi.

Baertschi isn't half the player Monahan is and will be, let's not get carried away here. The guy who pays the bill will tell you how you will be developed not the other way around. Honestly I don't think Baertschi is any better than Granlund neither will be stars.

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I think they failed each other. It is a business and everyone is different. Tough love doesn't work for everyone. That's where they handled him wrong. Some players get motivated in other ways.

Yes Baertschi was entitled, but the organization also needed to handle him differently.

I compare it to they way they handled Monahan who the coddled and was BH's secret love child. I get that they needed to keep him up or send back to the OHL, but they lived with a lot of mistakes with Monahan and extremely sheltered him, even though I thought Monahan looked really tentative in his game. I am saying they could've done that with Baertschi too.

I heard Baertschi tried to put in time but was sent down, brought up and sent down. I just think the Flames mishandled him as much as he didn't follow through on his end, which is part of development. The Flames failed to develop Baertschi.

I think Baertschi saw the writing on the wall after Burke publicly aired him out. He pretty much called him selfish and lacking a complete all around game. Not untrue but maybe not the best way to express your displeasure with one of our top prospects at the time. He did the same thing to Kadri in Toronto. Ultimately Sven couldn't take the heat and jumped ship. I'd agree both parties were responsible but I put more of that responsibility on Sven looking for an easier route.

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How can you not? You have to use Baertschi in the conversation because he was a part of the organization for his whole ELC, aside from the TDL when we traded him. You can't dismiss it just because the Canucks did similar things with him.

The one thing they didn't do was publicly bad mouth the kid. Plus, after awhile they sheltered him and you prove that point with the minutes he is getting. They're living with his game which we never did. They're getting rewarded now, playing him with Horvat, after sheltering them both.

In a sense, the Canucks are therefore developing Baertschi better than we ever did...

 

Actually they did. When Dejardins scratched him earlier this year he said in reference to him "this isn't the try league, its the get it done league".

 

I have no doubt in my mind that had Baertschi stayed here he would be doing the same thing and nothing the Canucks have done is anything different than what the Flames did/where doing. The only diffrence is the Canucks don't have an idiot GM who tries to flaunt and overrate his drafting abilities like Feaster did. No dbout in my mind that had Sven had stayed in Calgary we'd be in the same spot we are today. 

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I think Baertschi saw the writing on the wall after Burke publicly aired him out. He pretty much called him selfish and lacking a complete all around game. Not untrue but maybe not the best way to express your displeasure with one of our top prospects at the time. He did the same thing to Kadri in Toronto. Ultimately Sven couldn't take the heat and jumped ship. I'd agree both parties were responsible but I put more of that responsibility on Sven looking for an easier route.

I agree with this because we can't dismiss the organizations role in mismanaging him if we are talking about how we develop players. I am not taking any of the blame away from Baertschi. He played as big a role as the organization in this.

I understand it's what the organization who determines how development occurs.

But regardless, Baertschi just scored the game winner last night and quite possible is going to get 20+ goals. Those goals would've been nice for the flames who are having trouble with secondary scoring.

I just looked at his stats. He looks more on pace for 15 goals, not as good as I thought, but nevertheless, they're taking a different approach than we did. Baertschi just wasn't ready and the team ousted him publicly for it...

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Of course there's concern over what looks to be regression down in the A but I'm going to wait another year or two here before worrying. There was a lot of transition going on with new players being added, injuries happening at inopportune times, the team basically mirrored everything that happened to the Flames this year. They made a serious change in locale and playing schedule etc... I want to see how things settle before becoming leery about the state of our development. Last year they were way better so I'm not sure it's as much coaching/development as it is situational change, heightened expectations and confidence.

Drafting is another tough nut to crack as every year is different, we can hope for all around wins every year but I think this is just a false predication. I honestly have the feeling that our drafting is much better since Treliving joined and now has full understanding of the state of the team compared to when he was 1st hired.

Same mindset I'm in regarding how to approach our farm team. It has been a dissapointing season , there hasn't been much exciting news regarding the prospects in the AHL. I agree to give them another season in their new surroundings before passing judgement. I haven't been impressed by Huska and the coaching staff yet. At this point in the season outside of Grant and Agostino it looks like we have a prospect pool of 3rd and 4th liners and nothing more. I'm even questioning Ortios future with the club now. Here's hoping next year brings better results and some real growth

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Same mindset I'm in regarding how to approach our farm team. It has been a dissapointing season , there hasn't been much exciting news regarding the prospects in the AHL. I agree to give them another season in their new surroundings before passing judgement. I haven't been impressed by Huska and the coaching staff yet. At this point in the season outside of Grant and Agostino it looks like we have a prospect pool of 3rd and 4th liners and nothing more. I'm even questioning Ortios future with the club now. Here's hoping next year brings better results and some real growth

 

I think you can attribute that to the Flames prospect pool more so then Huska. Going into this season I think the only prospect on that team that maybe had top 6 potential was Porier and even then i'm not sold on it. Potential is there but he's a bit more raw but I would add he is actually have a decent season, by all accounts, even if the numbers don't wow you. 

 

Flames prospect pool is deep but it lacks high end talent becuae they've already graduated all their high end talent.

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Who exactly did the Flames mess up developing? Who went on and has done great things outside of the organization? 

 

Defining "mess up" as either "development that's detrimental to player growth" or "development causing irreparable damage" then isn't it a fallacious argument to suggest any player can be messed up and still go on to succeed outside the organization?

 

ie. if Baertschi goes on to score 50-goals a year, then it can only be argued the Flames successfully contributed to his development.  It would mean the Flames never messed up his development.  If Baertschi goes on to not even last 2 seasons at the NHL level, then it could be argued the Flames messed up his development.  It cannot be that the Flames messed up a player's development and then they go on to great success outside the organization.

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I think the Flames are taking way too much heat for Sven. YOu know what the Canucks did when they acquired him? Sent him to the AHL. He played a whopping 5 games at the NHL level for Vancouver and never topped more then 14 mins of ice time, so never above the 3rd line. You know what they did on one than one occasion this this season? They made him a healthy scratch. HIs Avg ice time this season is just under 13 mins and since his last injury its 15 mins. 

 

I'm not going to get into the whole "expectations" thing with Baertschi becuase that's well documented and we don't need to discuss that here. But my point is I don't think you can hold up Baertschi as an example of the Flames development system not working  and in fact you could argue the opposite. The Canucks didn't do anything different than the Flames had already been doing with Baertschi. 

I don't hold him up as an example. I only meant that others might.

My whole post was about things that are happening that may be the evidence for some as to their view in this discussion. Whether the expectations for all the players (Ortio, Granlund etc not just Sven) were misplaced I think is relevant. If we expect them all to be top players and they don't pan out there, were they ever going to be top players or did we as fans want more from them and so blame development.

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Same mindset I'm in regarding how to approach our farm team. It has been a dissapointing season , there hasn't been much exciting news regarding the prospects in the AHL. I agree to give them another season in their new surroundings before passing judgement. I haven't been impressed by Huska and the coaching staff yet. At this point in the season outside of Grant and Agostino it looks like we have a prospect pool of 3rd and 4th liners and nothing more. I'm even questioning Ortios future with the club now. Here's hoping next year brings better results and some real growth

For me, if they're not competing for the Calder cup, then it's disappointing because I think being in that race is good for development.

I think you can attribute that to the Flames prospect pool more so then Huska. Going into this season I think the only prospect on that team that maybe had top 6 potential was Porier and even then i'm not sold on it. Potential is there but he's a bit more raw but I would add he is actually have a decent season, by all accounts, even if the numbers don't wow you. 

 

Flames prospect pool is deep but it lacks high end talent becuae they've already graduated all their high end talent.

If so, our F prospect pool is yuck. Is Granlund counted in that? We're going to need 2-3 top sixers and I don't think one wants to be spending a lot of cap in the FA market.

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What we are seeing, is regression.  With too many players.  Not even stagnation, but recurring issues of regression:

 

Baertschi    (then progression when he leaves)

Brossoit      (then progression when he leaves)

Granlund    (almost does better when he's with the Flames, by some standards)

Ortio           (almost does better when he's with the Flames, and played, by some standards)

Poirier

Kulak

Kylington   (slowing down with each game)

Wotherspoon

Elson

Arnold     (imho)

Klimchuk (imho)

Sielfoff (imho)

 

 

That's a big list, with some good, and even high-profile prospects in it.   

 

We can't expect all of them to continue improving.  Obviously some will plateau and stagnate.  That's just the odds.

 

But for regression to be noticeable....

 

Pretty big list.

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What we are seeing, is regression.  With too many players.  Not even stagnation, but recurring issues of regression:

 

Baertschi    (then progression when he leaves)

Brossoit      (then progression when he leaves)

Granlund    (almost does better when he's with the Flames, by some standards)

Ortio           (almost does better when he's with the Flames, and played, by some standards)

Poirier

Kulak

Kylington   (slowing down with each game)

Wotherspoon

Elson

Arnold     (imho)

Klimchuk (imho)

Sielfoff (imho)

 

 

That's a big list, with some good, and even high-profile prospects in it.   

 

We can't expect all of them to continue improving.  Obviously some will plateau and stagnate.  That's just the odds.

 

But for regression to be noticeable....

 

Pretty big list.

Where is the progression with baer? Hes still the same player he was here hes just been given different minutes to work with.

Brossoit is a goalie who has gotten older, and barely played at all in our system before he got traded.

 

Im not sure where you are going with the other players, have a bad start to the year for some of them doesnt mean they are regressing. Klimchuk is a first year pro along with kylington, Ortio is a goalie which is completely about finding consistency.

The only player I would agree with is sieloff, mostly because injuries set him back in his devolpment and hes never really found his way.

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Where is the progression with baer? Hes still the same player he was here hes just been given different minutes to work with.

 

 

To be totally honest, nothing could be further from the truth.   Sven's play in the AHL was the exact same kind of minutes with a completely different result:  His goal per game ratio, for instance, doubled, the moment he left our system.

http://theahl.com/stats/player.php?id=4632

 

That led to a swift call-up which was earned, where he displayed strong defence and earned minutes by helping his team.  He is since basically on pace for 20 goals or more this year, and just scored tonight.  With all his best years still ahead of him.  Projecting as a 30-40 goal scorer right now.

 

There's simply no question on Baertschi.  I know lots on here will still disagree, but less and less with each game played.  It is a fast-dwindling arguement that is only headed in one direction (appears that way right now).

 

I don't have the time, but could make similar examples out of most of the players on that list.  Without a doubt, I've surely made a mistake or two.  But it's not an inclusive list either.  There are a number of other players who've regressed that I didn't even bother to add.

 

It's an issue.   We have the option of ignoring or rationalizing it if we want, but that won't change the facts.

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