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Lines and Pairings for 2018/19 Season

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13 minutes ago, travel_dude said:

 

Wait for it.....

 

Seriously, where do you expect him to start that will jumpstart him. 

Top 9?  What a waste.  

4th line?  How is that going to help him.

 

And why is it that you want him off the team, yet you single me out for giving up on him.

How many failed seasons does he have to have to be a write-off?

Only took him until December to score a goal.

Freakin' awesome.

We will all be waiting to see how they go about it. I already posted my thoughts on where they will try him.

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41 minutes ago, travel_dude said:

Seriously, where do you expect him to start that will jumpstart him. 

Top 9?  What a waste.  

4th line?  How is that going to help him


Honestly, I feel a third line of Frolik-Ryan-Brouwer would actually be pretty good (for reasons I pointed out earlier, but a recap: While varying speeds, they are all similar speed so no one is going to be super far ahead of the other. Brouwer and Frolik are pretty good defensively, Ryan and Frolik are possession beasts. Once they get to the offensive zone, Brouwer's job will basically to dig pucks out of a corner, or park his rear end in front of the net. No real need for him to stick-handle. They are all pretty good at forchecking). Ideally, we trade Brouwer. Realistically, he's on the team, and I feel that is probably his best chance at being a useful impact player. We have the depth now to keep him off the powerplay, and likely the penalty kill as well. If he's just getting third line ES minutes, he really shouldn't be playing much more than 12 minutes a night (which is enough to let him work, but not really take icetime from others in big situations that may hurt us).

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1 hour ago, travel_dude said:

 

Wait for it.....

 

Seriously, where do you expect him to start that will jumpstart him. 

Top 9?  What a waste.  

4th line?  How is that going to help him.

 

And why is it that you want him off the team, yet you single me out for giving up on him.

How many failed seasons does he have to have to be a write-off?

Only took him until December to score a goal.

Freakin' awesome.

Agreed Brouwer has had two full years to prove himself.  He is not good enough, the Flames need to move on.  

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32 minutes ago, Khrox said:


Honestly, I feel a third line of Frolik-Ryan-Brouwer would actually be pretty good (for reasons I pointed out earlier, but a recap: While varying speeds, they are all similar speed so no one is going to be super far ahead of the other. Brouwer and Frolik are pretty good defensively, Ryan and Frolik are possession beasts. Once they get to the offensive zone, Brouwer's job will basically to dig pucks out of a corner, or park his rear end in front of the net. No real need for him to stick-handle. They are all pretty good at forchecking). Ideally, we trade Brouwer. Realistically, he's on the team, and I feel that is probably his best chance at being a useful impact player. We have the depth now to keep him off the powerplay, and likely the penalty kill as well. If he's just getting third line ES minutes, he really shouldn't be playing much more than 12 minutes a night (which is enough to let him work, but not really take icetime from others in big situations that may hurt us).

To say that Brouwer and Frolik are both good defensively is like saying a match and a lightning bolt both provide light.  Frolik is elite defensively, and his numbers and possession rates back that up.  Brouwer's numbers and possession rates prove that he is an anchor, has been one of if not the Flames worst PK player and a serious drag on virtually every single player he is matched with.  I have nothing against Brouwer personally, but when you consistently demonstrate your expiry date has come and gone, people should acknowledge that and move on.  They also need to be honest and acknowledge that ANY of Foo, Lazar, Hathaway, Klimchuk, Stajan, Mangiapanne, Dube and others is an upgrade in both value to the team and effective Cap usage.  He may end up starting the season with the Flames, but there is zero justification for giving cover to BT for keeping him there.

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As pointless as line combinations are in July, they are fun. Let's look at the depth chart doe the Flames. I am going to assume Frolik is LW. I am also going to assume Jankowski comes out strong in camp forcing Ryan and Lindholm to the wing. I kept it to top 5 for the skaters. 

 

LW

- Gaudreau 

- Tkachuk 

- Frolik

- Bennett

- Klimchuk 

 

C

- Monahan 

- Backlund

- Jankowski 

- Quine

- Lazar

 

RW

- Neal

- Lindholm

- Ryan

- Czarnik 

- Brouwer

 

LD

- Giordano 

- Hanafin

- Kulak

- Valimaki

- Kylington 

 

RD

- Brodie

- Hamonic 

- Stone

- Prout

- Anderson

 

G

- Smith 

- Rittich 

- Gilles

- Parsons 

 

If you were to build lines just on that depth chart they could look like:

 

Gaudreau-Monahan-Neal

Tkachuk-Backlund-Lindholm

Frolik-Jankowski-Ryan

Bennett-Quine-Czarnik 

Brouwer, Lazar

 

Giordano-Brodie 

Hanifin-Hamonic 

Kulak-Stone 

Prout

 

Smith 

Rittich 

 

I would upgrade the backup goalie. I would also hope Andersson beats out Stone for the bottom pair. We also have to hope Jankowski takes a big step forward. But overall I don't mind those lines.

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36 minutes ago, kehatch said:

As pointless as line combinations are in July, they are fun. Let's look at the depth chart doe the Flames. I am going to assume Frolik is LW. I am also going to assume Jankowski comes out strong in camp forcing Ryan and Lindholm to the wing. I kept it to top 5 for the skaters. 

 

LW

- Gaudreau 

- Tkachuk 

- Frolik

- Bennett

- Klimchuk 

 

C

- Monahan 

- Backlund

- Jankowski 

- Quine

- Lazar

 

RW

- Neal

- Lindholm

- Ryan

- Czarnik 

- Brouwer

 

LD

- Giordano 

- Hanafin

- Kulak

- Valimaki

- Kylington 

 

RD

- Brodie

- Hamonic 

- Stone

- Prout

- Anderson

 

G

- Smith 

- Rittich 

- Gilles

- Parsons 

 

If you were to build lines just on that depth chart they could look like:

 

Gaudreau-Monahan-Neal

Tkachuk-Backlund-Lindholm

Frolik-Jankowski-Ryan

Bennett-Quine-Czarnik 

Brouwer, Lazar

 

Giordano-Brodie 

Hanifin-Hamonic 

Kulak-Stone 

Prout

 

Smith 

Rittich 

 

I would upgrade the backup goalie. I would also hope Andersson beats out Stone for the bottom pair. We also have to hope Jankowski takes a big step forward. But overall I don't mind those lines.

Interesting.  I would be putting in Dube at Centre, ahead of Quine, and Foo and Hathaway ahead of Brouwer.  I would also have Anderson ahead of Stone, and likely Gillies slightly ahead of Rittich.  The two biggest anomalies ie wasted Cap/value are Brouwer and Stone.  I'd be working to trade both asap.  The biggest potential upgrade ST & LT for the team moving forward is at starting goalie, as Smith is older and only signed for 1 more year.  The back-ups are fine and this year will define who is still standing moving forward into the LT, or whether its a total re-set.

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5 hours ago, cccsberg said:

To say that Brouwer and Frolik are both good defensively is like saying a match and a lightning bolt both provide light.


You aren't wrong. Frolik is amazing defensively. But Brouwer is decent defensively. He's just not good when matched against top tier guys (which is what happened last season when Frolik went down). If you give him matchup against 3rd line scorers though (which would be the case in my scenario), he is more than adequate. Offensively he isn't there though, but that's why I'd play him with Frolik and Ryan (so that Brouwer doesn't actually have to do any of the actual possession work).

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3 hours ago, Khrox said:


You aren't wrong. Frolik is amazing defensively. But Brouwer is decent defensively. He's just not good when matched against top tier guys (which is what happened last season when Frolik went down). If you give him matchup against 3rd line scorers though (which would be the case in my scenario), he is more than adequate. Offensively he isn't there though, but that's why I'd play him with Frolik and Ryan (so that Brouwer doesn't actually have to do any of the actual possession work).

 

Brouwer hasn't been good offensively or defensively as a Flame. He is a long long way from being an analytics darling, and I haven't seen anything in his game to suggest differently. 

 

For the last two seasons he played on a team with zero RW depth under a coach that arguably gave him too much opportunity. Yet he still found himself on the fourth line. The Flames have new coaches and a lot more RW depth. Tough to see a spot for him. 

 

Could be turn it around? I guess so. But he has been on the decline for four seasons and he is 32. It is very unlikely. He needs to hope the Flames trade a player or two, put Ryan/Lindholm/both at centre, and/or injuries hit the team. Otherwise he may not even get the opportunity to turn it around. 

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12 hours ago, cccsberg said:

To say that Brouwer and Frolik are both good defensively is like saying a match and a lightning bolt both provide light.  Frolik is elite defensively, and his numbers and possession rates back that up.  Brouwer's numbers and possession rates prove that he is an anchor, has been one of if not the Flames worst PK player and a serious drag on virtually every single player he is matched with.  I have nothing against Brouwer personally, but when you consistently demonstrate your expiry date has come and gone, people should acknowledge that and move on.  They also need to be honest and acknowledge that ANY of Foo, Lazar, Hathaway, Klimchuk, Stajan, Mangiapanne, Dube and others is an upgrade in both value to the team and effective Cap usage.  He may end up starting the season with the Flames, but there is zero justification for giving cover to BT for keeping him there.

Listen none of us want Brouwer here but the point being made is if he is how to best deploy him. To say he isn't good defensively is just wrong and to say he has to prove himself is also wrong. Take the talents he does have and enhance them with complimentary/better players. Let BP decide if he keeps earning his ice time because you are right in that we now have players that can replace him any given night.

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48 minutes ago, kehatch said:

 

Brouwer hasn't been good offensively or defensively as a Flame. He is a long long way from being an analytics darling, and I haven't seen anything in his game to suggest differently. 

 

For the last two seasons he played on a team with zero RW depth under a coach that arguably gave him too much opportunity. Yet he still found himself on the fourth line. The Flames have new coaches and a lot more RW depth. Tough to see a spot for him. 

 

Could be turn it around? I guess so. But he has been on the decline for four seasons and he is 32. It is very unlikely. He needs to hope the Flames trade a player or two, put Ryan/Lindholm/both at centre, and/or injuries hit the team. Otherwise he may not even get the opportunity to turn it around. 

Gaudreau, Monahan, Neal

Tkachuk, Backlund. Lindholm

Frolik, Ryan. Brouwer

Bennett, Jankowski, Czarnik

Very easy to see where he could be a fit.

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3 hours ago, MAC331 said:

Gaudreau, Monahan, Neal

Tkachuk, Backlund. Lindholm

Frolik, Ryan. Brouwer

Bennett, Jankowski, Czarnik

Very easy to see where he could be a fit.

 

Bill Peters should be fired on the spot if Brouwer gets more ice time and opportunity than Sam Bennett. 

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5 minutes ago, cross16 said:

 

Bill Peters should be fired on the spot if Brouwer gets more ice time and opportunity than Sam Bennett. 

You are entitled to your thoughts however there could be the thinking of making Bennett earn his way up in the line up. This was simply an illustration to show one scenario of working Brouwer in. Here is another just so Bennett is put to better use.

Gaudreau, Monahan, Neal

Tkachuk, Backlund, Lindholm

Bennett, Ryan, Frolik

Klimchuk, Jankowski, Brouwer

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4 hours ago, MAC331 said:

Gaudreau, Monahan, Neal

Tkachuk, Backlund. Lindholm

Frolik, Ryan. Brouwer

Bennett, Jankowski, Czarnik

Very easy to see where he could be a fit.

 

Since Frolik is sound defensively, and people argue that Brouwer isn't, I would just take him out of the top 12 in your suggested lines.

Bennett-Ryan-Frolik and Mangiapane-Janko-Czarnik.

 

Mangiapane is the defacto first callup, so if he wins a job out of camp, you need to use him on a speedy line that can score.  Maybe I would be a bit concerned about a mostly rookie line, but none of them are kids.  They have Janko who is a sophomore.  Better than chaining them to Brouwer.

And no, Brouwer is not a 3rd liner on this team.  

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8 minutes ago, travel_dude said:

 

Since Frolik is sound defensively, and people argue that Brouwer isn't, I would just take him out of the top 12 in your suggested lines.

Bennett-Ryan-Frolik and Mangiapane-Janko-Czarnik.

 

Mangiapane is the defacto first callup, so if he wins a job out of camp, you need to use him on a speedy line that can score.  Maybe I would be a bit concerned about a mostly rookie line, but none of them are kids.  They have Janko who is a sophomore.  Better than chaining them to Brouwer.

And no, Brouwer is not a 3rd liner on this team.  

I guess you missed the point once again surrounding the exercise of showing where Brouwer could play in order to maximize his talents. Take the hate blinders off and read the other post moving Bennett up and Frolik over. I wouldn't waste Mangiapane on a 4th line and think he is better served as a depth player to come up if and when an injury occurs top 9 LW.

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1 hour ago, MAC331 said:

I guess you missed the point once again surrounding the exercise of showing where Brouwer could play in order to maximize his talents. Take the hate blinders off and read the other post moving Bennett up and Frolik over. I wouldn't waste Mangiapane on a 4th line and think he is better served as a depth player to come up if and when an injury occurs top 9 LW.

 

You ignore the obvious.  My feelings for Brouwer don't color my observation of what he is.  Your alternate line is not better.  He doesn't fit what this team is becomming.  If the option is Mangiapane and Czarnik at 10+ minutes a night or a line with Brouwer, I choose the former.  

 

Throwing out suggestions of how to maximize a talent is fine, but it has to be realistic.  He doesn't fit and he has played with the best players.  Maximize that.

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3 hours ago, MAC331 said:

You are entitled to your thoughts however there could be the thinking of making Bennett earn his way up in the line up. This was simply an illustration to show one scenario of working Brouwer in. Here is another just so Bennett is put to better use.

Gaudreau, Monahan, Neal

Tkachuk, Backlund, Lindholm

Bennett, Ryan, Frolik

Klimchuk, Jankowski, Brouwer

Brouwer should be off the team or eating popcorn, end of discussion.  He has not earned a spot and has been passed by multiple players.  Putting him in is a sham based solely on his $4.5mm salary. 

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1 hour ago, MAC331 said:

I guess you missed the point once again surrounding the exercise of showing where Brouwer could play in order to maximize his talents. Take the hate blinders off and read the other post moving Bennett up and Frolik over. I wouldn't waste Mangiapane on a 4th line and think he is better served as a depth player to come up if and when an injury occurs top 9 LW.

If you are doing a thought exercise to maximize Brouwer, you play him in the old Ferland spot, with Gaudreau and Monahan, the same with every player.  Now that this is settled, how about we think about what makes sense, makes the team better and is justified based on what is earned?  Brouwer is not in any of those scenarios, and trying to force him there is enabling BT and BP in bad decisions and to the detriment of the team.  How do you think other players will react if Brouwer gets a spot unjustifiably AGAIN?  Talk about shooting yourself in the foot, and screwing with the team cohesion and mentality before the season even begins?  When oh when is the GM going to admit his screw-ups and move past them into the future?  It is well past time.

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7 minutes ago, cccsberg said:

 When oh when is the GM going to admit his screw-ups and move past them into the future?  It is well past time.

 

I'd say bringing in 3 RS players and a RW who all can play the spot ahead of Brouwer is certainly admitting a mistake and correcting it. 

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49 minutes ago, travel_dude said:

 

You ignore the obvious.  My feelings for Brouwer don't color my observation of what he is.  Your alternate line is not better.  He doesn't fit what this team is becomming.  If the option is Mangiapane and Czarnik at 10+ minutes a night or a line with Brouwer, I choose the former.  

 

Throwing out suggestions of how to maximize a talent is fine, but it has to be realistic.  He doesn't fit and he has played with the best players.  Maximize that.

Again you persist with missing the point being made because of how you feel about Brouwer LOL you make me laugh because all I am doing is showing you how it can be done. It isn't up to me how they try and use him but I will tell you don't be surprised to see something similar to what I am suggesting if he is here.

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28 minutes ago, cccsberg said:

Brouwer should be off the team or eating popcorn, end of discussion.  He has not earned a spot and has been passed by multiple players.  Putting him in is a sham based solely on his $4.5mm salary. 

Perhaps but the ones who actually know hockey and make the decisions are talking like something can be done with him. This makes me believe there will be an early attempt to resurrect Brouwer.

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25 minutes ago, cccsberg said:

If you are doing a thought exercise to maximize Brouwer, you play him in the old Ferland spot, with Gaudreau and Monahan, the same with every player.  Now that this is settled, how about we think about what makes sense, makes the team better and is justified based on what is earned?  Brouwer is not in any of those scenarios, and trying to force him there is enabling BT and BP in bad decisions and to the detriment of the team.  How do you think other players will react if Brouwer gets a spot unjustifiably AGAIN?  Talk about shooting yourself in the foot, and screwing with the team cohesion and mentality before the season even begins?  When oh when is the GM going to admit his screw-ups and move past them into the future?  It is well past time.

Ask yourself this question and answer it honestly, are any of Lazar, Hathaway or the new Czarnik better than Brouwer for 3rd or 4th line RW. I would say not necessarily. Now if you deploy Neal, Lindholm, Frolik and Czarnik (better than Brouwer, agreed) then you have Brouwer eating popcorn. I don't think management is prepared to do that if the decision is he stays. I would rather buy him out and have the over-ride of carrying the salary applicable by using a lesser cost player. Tick, tick, tick

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26 minutes ago, cross16 said:

 

I'd say bringing in 3 RS players and a RW who all can play the spot ahead of Brouwer is certainly admitting a mistake and correcting it. 

I totally agree with his latest moves.  I was referring to Brouwer, and the idea of him displacing a better player in the line-up.  It still may not happen, I hope.

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Since we've talked about this a number of times, I thought I would quote this from a FN article:

 

For you #Bryout fans out there, the Flames get access to the second buyout window by virtue of merely having players file for arbitration. Even if all five players settle before the hearing, they can buy somebody out within a 48-hour period after the last scheduled league-wide arbitration hearing.

 

Can't confirm this, but I do know that Pike knows quite a bit about the CBA.  Probably more than Feaster.  :D

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2 hours ago, travel_dude said:

Since we've talked about this a number of times, I thought I would quote this from a FN article:

 

For you #Bryout fans out there, the Flames get access to the second buyout window by virtue of merely having players file for arbitration. Even if all five players settle before the hearing, they can buy somebody out within a 48-hour period after the last scheduled league-wide arbitration hearing.

 

Can't confirm this, but I do know that Pike knows quite a bit about the CBA.  Probably more than Feaster.  :D

 

I am pretty sure that is accurate.  The intention is to protect the team if they are forced to go over (either as part of a private settlement or via the arb ruling).  

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On 7/5/2018 at 11:27 AM, cross16 said:

 

Bill Peters should be fired on the spot if Brouwer gets more ice time and opportunity than Sam Bennett. 

I have said this to you before Cross.

Don't hold back Cross, tell us what you really think !!!

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