Lines and Pairings for 2018/19 Season

[MAC331 1,444]

However BP goes about setting up our top 9 we should be solid. It appears the 4th line will have some flexibility for allowing some new and existing players to find their NHL game.

It would be a far healthier scenario with Brouwer not here.

Gaudreau, Monahan, Neal

Tkachuk, Backlund, Lindholm (would like to see the Swedes together for more possible offense)

Bennett, Ryan, Frolik

Klimchuk, Jankowski, Lazar

Ehliz                           Hathaway

Ehliz is an older player which may help him immediately but I would like to see what he has to offer. Klimchuk needs the opportunity to show he can make the jump.

[MAC331 1,444]

Our Defense without Stone.

Giordano, Brodie

Hanifin, Hamonic

Kulak, Andersson

Prout

I don't see this cast in stone (no pun intended lol) and could see some call up situations happening.

[FlameFan4Life 31]

2 hours ago, MAC331 said:

However BP goes about setting up our top 9 we should be solid. It appears the 4th line will have some flexibility for allowing some new and existing players to find their NHL game.

It would be a far healthier scenario with Brouwer not here.

Gaudreau, Monahan, Neal

Tkachuk, Backlund, Lindholm (would like to see the Swedes together for more possible offense)

Bennett, Ryan, Frolik

Klimchuk, Jankowski, Lazar

Ehliz                           Hathaway

Ehliz is an older player which may help him immediately but I would like to see what he has to offer. Klimchuk needs the opportunity to show he can make the jump.

I totally agree with this all except for the 4th line where I think we will see Foo on the RW. I don't want Janko on the fourth but at this point the only other way is to him up is in Bennet's spot

[travel_dude 816]

2 hours ago, MAC331 said:

However BP goes about setting up our top 9 we should be solid. It appears the 4th line will have some flexibility for allowing some new and existing players to find their NHL game.

It would be a far healthier scenario with Brouwer not here.

Gaudreau, Monahan, Neal

Tkachuk, Backlund, Lindholm (would like to see the Swedes together for more possible offense)

Bennett, Ryan, Frolik

Klimchuk, Jankowski, Lazar

Ehliz                           Hathaway

Ehliz is an older player which may help him immediately but I would like to see what he has to offer. Klimchuk needs the opportunity to show he can make the jump.

 

For what it's worth, Czarnik seems to have the inside track on making the Flames lineup.

Has #27 and has been talked about for his PP abilities.

Seems a natural fit for the 4th line RW, if you go with speed and scoring ability.

Mangiapane, Janko and Czarnik; three guys that scored well in the AHL and all have speed. 

 

Lazar and Brouwer both have failed to reach expectations here.  You can only hang onto a belief so long with Lazar.

[robrob74 987]

18 minutes ago, travel_dude said:

 

For what it's worth, Czarnik seems to have the inside track on making the Flames lineup.

Has #27 and has been talked about for his PP abilities.

Seems a natural fit for the 4th line RW, if you go with speed and scoring ability.

Mangiapane, Janko and Czarnik; three guys that scored well in the AHL and all have speed. 

 

Lazar and Brouwer both have failed to reach expectations here.  You can only hang onto a belief so long with Lazar.

 

Yup! That was a wasted 2nd rounder. A gamble we had to take? Maybe? We could’ve used the upside if he panned out. 

[DirtyDeeds 2,605]

I would like to see a Tkachuk - Bennett - Neil line just for "the chaos". So the forwards lineup might look like this:

 

Tkachuk - Bennett - Neil

Gaudreau - Monahan - Lindholm

Frolik - Backlund - Foo

Hathaway - Jankowski - Czarnik

 

2-3 Best of remaining:

Ehliz, Brouwer, Lazar, Klimchuk, Lomberg, Tuulola.

 

 

 

[travel_dude 816]

18 minutes ago, DirtyDeeds said:

I would like to see a Tkachuk - Bennett - Neil line just for "the chaos". So the forwards lineup might look like this:

 

Tkachuk - Bennett - Neil

Gaudreau - Monahan - Lindholm

Frolik - Backlund - Foo

Hathaway - Jankowski - Czarnik

 

2-3 Best of remaining:

Ehliz, Brouwer, Lazar, Klimchuk, Lomberg, Tuulola.

 

 

 

 

Couple of questions/comments:

 

People forget Ryan when drawing up lines, which means we have decent depth.  Does he bump Foo entirely?

If you are penciling in players on the 4th line for now, wouldn't it be better to use a LHS and have Hathaway as one of the other guys competing? 

Isn't Tuulola signed for another year in Europe?  I guess they could compensate the team.

[DirtyDeeds 2,605]

5 minutes ago, travel_dude said:

 

Couple of questions/comments:

 

People forget Ryan when drawing up lines, which means we have decent depth.  Does he bump Foo entirely?

If you are penciling in players on the 4th line for now, wouldn't it be better to use a LHS and have Hathaway as one of the other guys competing? 

Isn't Tuulola signed for another year in Europe?  I guess they could compensate the team.

Yep.. Forgot Ryan.

Likely Tuulola in Europe but wanted him in the chat about extras.

I don't mind Hataway on LW  when he shoots right. I wanted his agitation on that line.

[travel_dude 816]

3 minutes ago, DirtyDeeds said:

Yep.. Forgot Ryan.

Likely Tuulola in Europe but wanted him in the chat about extras.

I don't mind Hataway on LW  when he shoots right. I wanted his agitation on that line.

 

Just checking about Etu.  Wasn't sure.

Hathaway sort became inconsistent like Ferland last year.  Started strong then became invisible or a liability.

I know the team will settle with him; they are locked in either way.  I just think he's more of an extra/grinder if you are running Janko/Czarnik.

With Ehliz, I have no idea what he is compared to the other.  Suspect he will be an injury callup if he does well in the AHL.

 

Wondering as well why you don't have Mangiapane listed there.  He's ahead of Lomberg and Klimchuk on the depth chart.

 

BTW, not singling you out, just interested in perspective.

  

[robrob74 987]

1 hour ago, travel_dude said:

 

Just checking about Etu.  Wasn't sure.

Hathaway sort became inconsistent like Ferland last year.  Started strong then became invisible or a liability.

I know the team will settle with him; they are locked in either way.  I just think he's more of an extra/grinder if you are running Janko/Czarnik.

With Ehliz, I have no idea what he is compared to the other.  Suspect he will be an injury callup if he does well in the AHL.

 

Wondering as well why you don't have Mangiapane listed there.  He's ahead of Lomberg and Klimchuk on the depth chart.

 

BTW, not singling you out, just interested in perspective.

  

 

I can see Hathaway as a 4th liner that is easy to replace or rest him for a few when he gets off his game. He needs to be at his best, which sitting him will get him going again.

 

with Mangiapane, I can see him as one of the first top6 call-ups. BT and co. Have been talking about playing call ups where they slit in the A.

[travel_dude 816]

37 minutes ago, robrob74 said:

 

I can see Hathaway as a 4th liner that is easy to replace or rest him for a few when he gets off his game. He needs to be at his best, which sitting him will get him going again.

 

with Mangiapane, I can see him as one of the first top6 call-ups. BT and co. Have been talking about playing call ups where they slit in the A.

 

My issue with the roster is having a 4th line with guys like Brouwer and Hathaway.  They are role players in my mind. Stale roll for Brouwer.

If you want to roll 4 lines, then Hathaway is okay, but doesn't add much scoring skill.  Brouwer means it's a slower grinding line. 

The way things are looking (lack of trades), Janko seems to be moving to the 4th line if he's staying at C.  Either that or Frolik. 

[DirtyDeeds 2,605]

3 hours ago, travel_dude said:

 

Just checking about Etu.  Wasn't sure.

Hathaway sort became inconsistent like Ferland last year.  Started strong then became invisible or a liability.

He is still an agitator presence. Inconstant is not a death sentence because you don't expect  much more except a strong cycle from them.

 

I know the team will settle with him; they are locked in either way.  I just think he's more of an extra/grinder if you are running Janko/Czarnik.

With Ehliz, I have no idea what he is compared to the other.  Suspect he will be an injury callup if he does well in the AHL.

 

Wondering as well why you don't have Mangiapane listed there.  He's ahead of Lomberg and Klimchuk on the depth chart.

Don't want him on 4th line with 4th line minutes or sitting in stands as extra. He is a small but talented LW and at best 4th on the LW depth chart.

 

 

BTW, not singling you out, just interested in perspective.

  

I don't have Lomberg or Klimchuk on my lines either and would still prefer Hathaway on that 4th line.

[MAC331 1,444]

9 hours ago, FlameFan4Life said:

I totally agree with this all except for the 4th line where I think we will see Foo on the RW. I don't want Janko on the fourth but at this point the only other way is to him up is in Bennet's spot

I think Foo is best served filling out the top line in Stockton with Mangiapane and Dube as linemates. All 3 will be solid depth to step in as injuries occur.

I don't think it hurts Jankowski to play lesser minutes and learn from the other Cs but be part of an exciting energy line.

[MAC331 1,444]

9 hours ago, travel_dude said:

 

For what it's worth, Czarnik seems to have the inside track on making the Flames lineup.

Has #27 and has been talked about for his PP abilities.

Seems a natural fit for the 4th line RW, if you go with speed and scoring ability.

Mangiapane, Janko and Czarnik; three guys that scored well in the AHL and all have speed. 

 

Lazar and Brouwer both have failed to reach expectations here.  You can only hang onto a belief so long with Lazar.

I hope Czarnik does fill that RW spot and bumps Lazar to a spare. As far as I'm concerned BT can trade away Hathaway. I still think Lazar as a RHS that can play C and RW is worth keeping around. I don't like the idea of Mangiapane on our 4th line and would rather have him ready and able to step in if any of our LW players goes down. I think we all would like to see Brouwer elsewhere.

[TheBurn 14]

Personally hoping we can move on from Kulak. Doesnt bring enough to warrant a full time spot. Valimaki joining us would be good with Andersson being our 7th ultimately means we will have to expose a good dman for Seattle. 

[Going4TheCup 98]

Gaudreau - Monahan - Neal

Tkachuk-Backlund-Frolik

Bennett-Jankowsi-Lindholm

Hathaway-Ryan-Brouwer or if Brouwer isn't on the roster than Czarnik

 

Giordano-Brodie

Hanafin-Hamonic

Valimaki-Stone

 

 

[cccsberg 413]

2 hours ago, TheBurn said:

Personally hoping we can move on from Kulak. Doesnt bring enough to warrant a full time spot. Valimaki joining us would be good with Andersson being our 7th ultimately means we will have to expose a good dman for Seattle. 

The Seattle expansion draft is still a couple seasons or more away.  There will be significant changes before that is a concern.

[travel_dude 816]

3 hours ago, TheBurn said:

Personally hoping we can move on from Kulak. Doesnt bring enough to warrant a full time spot. Valimaki joining us would be good with Andersson being our 7th ultimately means we will have to expose a good dman for Seattle. 

 

The expansion is a concern, but only from a perspective of who will be on the team at that point.

It makes sense to leave Valimaki this year in the AHL.

He needs the time and should be given the time to adjust to pro.

He may be good enough in camp to warrant a 9 game look, but there isn;t a driving need to keep him up.

If he stays in the AHL this season, then we don't need to protect him.

We may have more need to protect Andersson, assuming he's a full time pro this season.

 

Kulak was good enough to be a bottom pair D-man, and he was better than Stone.  Don't see the rush to get rid of him.

He may never get above what he is today, but is that so bad?  Every team needs a 6/7 guy.

[cccsberg 413]

6 minutes ago, travel_dude said:

 

The expansion is a concern, but only from a perspective of who will be on the team at that point.

It makes sense to leave Valimaki this year in the AHL.

He needs the time and should be given the time to adjust to pro.

He may be good enough in camp to warrant a 9 game look, but there isn;t a driving need to keep him up.

If he stays in the AHL this season, then we don't need to protect him.

We may have more need to protect Andersson, assuming he's a full time pro this season.

 

Kulak was good enough to be a bottom pair D-man, and he was better than Stone.  Don't see the rush to get rid of him.

He may never get above what he is today, but is that so bad?  Every team needs a 6/7 guy.

You should ice the best team possible, at all times, not accept mediocrity.  By the time of the expansion draft the Flames, or any team could be sitting on back to back SC championships, if they are good enough and lucky enough to go all the way.  The Flames are working to be in that conversation and if, and it is a big if, Valimaki, or Dube, or Anderson or whomever is better than other guys currently pencilled in they should be playing.  

[travel_dude 816]

25 minutes ago, cccsberg said:

You should ice the best team possible, at all times, not accept mediocrity.  By the time of the expansion draft the Flames, or any team could be sitting on back to back SC championships, if they are good enough and lucky enough to go all the way.  The Flames are working to be in that conversation and if, and it is a big if, Valimaki, or Dube, or Anderson or whomever is better than other guys currently pencilled in they should be playing.  

 

We have more options at forward.  We will have a variety of them to expose in the coming draft, and I'm not too hung up about losing a player. 

I was just considering that a 19 year old does not have to play in the NHL right out of junior if the other options are as good.

He's yet to prove anything more than Kylington for a call up, who has played 5 years of pro so far.

Maybe we can manage player development better for defense and not end up with a Bennett situation.

Considering that we have 4 top 4 D-men right now, we should be bringing them up to the NHL in the following order, assuming they all can play at the NHL level:

1) Kulak (LHS)

2) Andersson (RHS)

3) Kylington (LHS)

4) Valimaki (LHS)

 

It's very possible that Valimaki is NHL ready this or next season.  I would prefer to use him in a 3/4 capacity, with a vet, rather than use him on the 3rd pair.  Kylington and Kulak can fight it out for that spot, with Prout being the #7.  Valimaki projects to be a 2/3 guy.  We should really bring him in when he's ready for that or we have the option to give him extended minutes with a seasoned vet.

[MAC331 1,444]

48 minutes ago, cccsberg said:

You should ice the best team possible, at all times, not accept mediocrity.  By the time of the expansion draft the Flames, or any team could be sitting on back to back SC championships, if they are good enough and lucky enough to go all the way.  The Flames are working to be in that conversation and if, and it is a big if, Valimaki, or Dube, or Anderson or whomever is better than other guys currently pencilled in they should be playing.  

The question becomes how do you know who the better player is right off the bat ? Kulak now has a season of NHL experience and did well. We know Valimaki has talent but no pro experience, would it not be prudent to see how he handles the AHL ? Camp IMO is no place such decisions should be made.

[cccsberg 413]

2 hours ago, MAC331 said:

The question becomes how do you know who the better player is right off the bat ? Kulak now has a season of NHL experience and did well. We know Valimaki has talent but no pro experience, would it not be prudent to see how he handles the AHL ? Camp IMO is no place such decisions should be made.

Well, at least you are consistent.  Unfortunately, the AHL doesn’t prove anything at the NHL level either, so the obvious conclusion of your thinking is no prospect ever gets a chance, unless there is an injury and the team is forced to bring someone up and play them.  That is no way to run a team, or any organization for that matter.  Training camp is exactly the place to earn or lose a job, based on training camp and overall history.  Unfortunately last year, and even before, it was more like a Country Club old boys fraternity more enamoured with loyalty than skill and value.  

[MAC331 1,444]

1 hour ago, cccsberg said:

Well, at least you are consistent.  Unfortunately, the AHL doesn’t prove anything at the NHL level either, so the obvious conclusion of your thinking is no prospect ever gets a chance, unless there is an injury and the team is forced to bring someone up and play them.  That is no way to run a team, or any organization for that matter.  Training camp is exactly the place to earn or lose a job, based on training camp and overall history.  Unfortunately last year, and even before, it was more like a Country Club old boys fraternity more enamoured with loyalty than skill and value.  

You really have a hair trigger, don't you. You don't even take logic into your thinking. The AHL is a pro league, the first level most of these players have in order to adjust away from Junior or College play. Why choose to throw away additional development and further evaluation time in order to have a better prepared player. You totally ignore the importance of experience for these players in order to reach their potential, it isn't automatic. Hoping trial by fire and learning on the job works is no way to manage a professional level team.

[cccsberg 413]

15 minutes ago, MAC331 said:

You really have a hair trigger, don't you. You don't even take logic into your thinking. The AHL is a pro league, the first level most of these players have in order to adjust away from Junior or College play. Why choose to throw away additional development and further evaluation time in order to have a better prepared player. You totally ignore the importance of experience for these players in order to reach their potential, it isn't automatic. Hoping trial by fire and learning on the job works is no way to manage a professional level team.

Also consistent.  Like I said, The AHL is not the NHL, so until they play in the NHL you'll never know.  You may believe that AHL time is necessary, and I would agree it likely mitigates the risk, however to have a policy (which is what your comments seem too imply) that you don't make the NHL until you've done time in the AHL is nonsensical.  Valimaki has already had an "extra" year in Juniors (probably could have played AHL except for rules).  Some guys make the NHL and do just fine the year after their draft, including D, although its moreso forwards.  Look, we agree on lots of things, but disagree (slightly) on when to bring up new guys.  In that argument I would say I'm definitely in the minority, including the Flames.  In the past I have proposed a "system" to better ease guys into the line-up but nobody has cottoned on to it, and certainly its not how the team operates.  Let me reiterate.  

 

How about the team utilize their "extra" line-up spots (7D, 13F, 14F, 2G?) to rotate their top AHLers up to the Flames for the experience/motivation/check readiness and also to get some games in?  They stay for a week or two, get into a/some games and then go back down if not ready?  These extra players usually don't serve a continuing useful purpose (e.g. FHamilton, Bartkowski last year) and often the AHL player is actually way better but is down in order to play consistently versus sitting the bench with the Flames.  If the coach was more willing to play an extra guy for the worst-performing regular, which would also be motivation for them, there could be a fairly regular rotation and significant opportunities to see our top prospects in meaningful games.  This would help to remove the most commonly-raised concern about prospects, ie have they "proved it" and what will they do in the NHL?  When you only do this when multiple injuries arise, or the last few games of the season when playing out the string, e.g. Foo last year, it is all too easy to discount his tremendous success.  

 

What is a guy supposed to do?  When the team does not give their prospects a fair and honest shot, nor provide an effective mechanism to bring in new guys (e.g. didn't Jankowski "earn it" last year's camp, but still got sent down awaiting an injury?) they are doing a disservice to the player, and to the team, and they end up bringing in a bunch of PTO'ed over-the-hill vets who've previously "proved it", well, maybe... as some sort of an artificial barrier to advancement.  If the coaches are not able to look at these guys and figure out who is the best today/who will be the best in a month/who will be the best in the next 5 years.... perhaps they need better coaches and management.  There are guys around with a great eye for talent, maybe the Flames need someone to do just that?   Their vet signings sure hint that is the case, and their hesitancy in allowing the cream to rise to the top, ie prospects smells eerily similar.

[MAC331 1,444]

8 minutes ago, cccsberg said:

Also consistent.  Like I said, The AHL is not the NHL, so until they play in the NHL you'll never know.  You may believe that AHL time is necessary, and I would agree it likely mitigates the risk, however to have a policy (which is what your comments seem too imply) that you don't make the NHL until you've done time in the AHL is nonsensical.  Valimaki has already had an "extra" year in Juniors (probably could have played AHL except for rules).  Some guys make the NHL and do just fine the year after their draft, including D, although its moreso forwards.  Look, we agree on lots of things, but disagree (slightly) on when to bring up new guys.  In that argument I would say I'm definitely in the minority, including the Flames.  In the past I have proposed a "system" to better ease guys into the line-up but nobody has cottoned on to it, and certainly its not how the team operates.  Let me reiterate.  

 

How about the team utilize their "extra" line-up spots (7D, 13F, 14F, 2G?) to rotate their top AHLers up to the Flames for the experience/motivation/check readiness and also to get some games in?  They stay for a week or two, get into a/some games and then go back down if not ready?  These extra players usually don't serve a continuing useful purpose (e.g. FHamilton, Bartkowski last year) and often the AHL player is actually way better but is down in order to play consistently versus sitting the bench with the Flames.  If the coach was more willing to play an extra guy for the worst-performing regular, which would also be motivation for them, there could be a fairly regular rotation and significant opportunities to see our top prospects in meaningful games.  This would help to remove the most commonly-raised concern about prospects, ie have they "proved it" and what will they do in the NHL?  When you only do this when multiple injuries arise, or the last few games of the season when playing out the string, e.g. Foo last year, it is all too easy to discount his tremendous success.  

 

What is a guy supposed to do?  When the team does not give their prospects a fair and honest shot, nor provide an effective mechanism to bring in new guys (e.g. didn't Jankowski "earn it" last year's camp, but still got sent down awaiting an injury?) they are doing a disservice to the player, and to the team, and they end up bringing in a bunch of PTO'ed over-the-hill vets who've previously "proved it", well, maybe... as some sort of an artificial barrier to advancement.  If the coaches are not able to look at these guys and figure out who is the best today/who will be the best in a month/who will be the best in the next 5 years.... perhaps they need better coaches and management.  There are guys around with a great eye for talent, maybe the Flames need someone to do just that?   Their vet signings sure hint that is the case, and their hesitancy in allowing the cream to rise to the top, ie prospects smells eerily similar.

Maybe instead of writing a book go read one on professional sport development.

This started with some post about Valimaki pushing Kulak aside right from the start, if someone in management believes this betters the team immediately go for it. I stated that with what Kulak accomplished last season provides him the edge if not with NHL experience alone. You don't ever seem to value this aspect which is consistent with your opinions.

No I don't favor our cream of the crop prospects taking up 7th D, 13 and 14th forward spots because they better develop with more ice time at the AHL level. Valimaki could be ready I have said as much previously if he is play him and have Kulak as your 7th defenseman but right now that is blocked by having Stone here IMO. I favor seeing a player such as Klimchuk get his chance on the 4th line because I don't see him as a top 9 player. I prefer seeing a player like Mangiapane who there is no spot for now playing full time in the AHL so he is primed should Gaudreau, Bennett or Tkachuk need to be replaced at LW for whatever reason.