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10 hours ago, jjgallow said:

 

That was one component of many, really none of the lines scored.  Name the line, same thing.    But that wasn't even our biggest problem, that goes back to what you said about Gio, and generally our defence.   We were smoked on defence.    The only thing I Can't think of to blame is goaltending, and goaltending also was not cup-worthy.  Just, we were given good enough goaltending to win the series and still did not.

 

robrob74 said it best:  EVERYONE.   

 

At the same time though, some were worse than others.

 

 

Bottom line, I don't think James Neal is going to solve the problem we have, no matter what you do with him.   Yes, it's a worthy discussion topic.  As are Most other players on our team right now.    Many of which have high trade value.     I'm just seeing the buy high, sell low mentality, potentially, and making a note on it.

 

It feels like we are starting to move away from what happened in the playoffs and now wanting to blame our preferred scapegoat. We all have different players we aren’t happy with. 

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3 hours ago, The_People1 said:

 

You are not sure how I can say Bennett performs in the playoffs???

Well, what I was saying was that he didn't pick up the slack to take us into the playoffs.

When the top line quieted down in February and March, Bennett did little to take us there.

Yes, he was one of the few who got more than a single point in the playoffs.

 

Was he a difference maker on the scoresheet?  Not really.

Brodie had more 5v5 goals than anyone else, but I wouldn't label him a difference maker.

Where Bennett made his bones was in being a pest, hitting hard and forechecking.

 

Overall, it's hard to classify Bennett as a playoff performer.  Seeing how he would do in a long series or extended run might help.

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12 hours ago, robrob74 said:

 

The thing about us is we see things through a biased lens. We have our minds made up about certain players. I have always felt that Monahan wasn’t this great #1C and needs a Gaudreau or Hudler to perform or he doesn’t do much else. 

 

Travel isnt the biggest Bennett fan so he doesn’t see the intangibles he brings that others don’t. But I think you can’t win if you don’t have enough players that do the things Bennett does. We have two F players and a D or two who do that. Others do, but they’re small so they just bounce off of the other team.

 

This isn't about being a fan or a hater.  It's about what you do.  Intangibles are great, but they don't win that many games do they.  As I have mentioned to Peeps, Bennett didn't do a lot on the scoresheet this year, much like Janko.  And I am simply pointing out the facts of his playoff results.  More points than anyone else, but not enough 5v5 to make a difference.

 

I suggest trading Bennett because he still has value to some other teams.  He might bring in a player that could make us even better.

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8 minutes ago, travel_dude said:

 

This isn't about being a fan or a hater.  It's about what you do.  Intangibles are great, but they don't win that many games do they.  As I have mentioned to Peeps, Bennett didn't do a lot on the scoresheet this year, much like Janko.  And I am simply pointing out the facts of his playoff results.  More points than anyone else, but not enough 5v5 to make a difference.

 

I suggest trading Bennett because he still has value to some other teams.  He might bring in a player that could make us even better.

What stats should 3rd line players be achieving in your mind ?

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10 minutes ago, travel_dude said:

 

This isn't about being a fan or a hater.  It's about what you do.  Intangibles are great, but they don't win that many games do they.  As I have mentioned to Peeps, Bennett didn't do a lot on the scoresheet this year, much like Janko.  And I am simply pointing out the facts of his playoff results.  More points than anyone else, but not enough 5v5 to make a difference.

 

I suggest trading Bennett because he still has value to some other teams.  He might bring in a player that could make us even better.

 

I get what you are saying, but when Bennett is the only one who brings the intangibles that he does to the team, and he has shown time and time again that he is a big game performer, I just don't see how we can trade that away.

 

I also think that Bennett has been given crappy linemates for most of his career and then we question why he isn't producing. Last year it was Jankowski and Neal, neither of whom played at a consistent NHL level. Before that it was Brouwer.

 

Give him better players to play with and let's see what he can do. Heck even a line of Bennett-Ryan-Czarnik, would be the most skilled line he's played on since his rookie year when he played with Backlund.

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On 2019-05-21 at 10:25 PM, jjgallow said:

 

some random thoughts....

 

The James Neal thread is getting very popular, and right fully so with the contract.

 

But, was James really our takeaway from the playoffs?   Did we all watch that series and think..."yeah...James' fault.   If only we could fix the James situation we would have won."

 

I always find it funny how we beat around the bush and steer everyone clear of the biggest issues.

 

And how it leads to a buy high, sell low cycle.     James has low value right now, so we want to ship him (getting nothing back).  Gaudreau has high value right now, was the actual problem (or a big piece of it, along with defence), and we want to keep him.

 

Meanwhile we've got another initiative to bring Eberle on board.   After what just happened......

 

anyway

 

 

I don't think anyone is blaming Neal for the way the season ended. I think it's just a case of how do we get better next season, and clearing Neal's salary and roster spot opens a lot more possibilities. That's all.

 

I personally think this team needs to upgrade Monahan and get a true number 2 center if we want to improve and take another step. Getting a true number 1 center would take a lot of the load off of Gaudreau, who currently has to carry Monahan offensively and defensively and that's just too much to ask from him.

 

If you move Neal's contract it gives you a lot more room to figure out how to get a number 1 center onto the team.

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4 minutes ago, JTech780 said:

 

I don't think anyone is blaming Neal for the way the season ended. I think it's just a case of how do we get better next season, and clearing Neal's salary and roster spot opens a lot more possibilities. That's all.

 

I personally think this team needs to upgrade Monahan and get a true number 2 center if we want to improve and take another step. Getting a true number 1 center would take a lot of the load off of Gaudreau, who currently has to carry Monahan offensively and defensively and that's just too much to ask from him.

 

If you move Neal's contract it gives you a lot more room to figure out how to get a number 1 center onto the team.

Agree with moving out Neal but I don't think a true #1 is in the cards right now. Gaudreau, Monahan and Lindholm was one of the most dynamic lines in the NHL last season so it's not like Monahan is a huge handicap. The real changes required in order to get better lies in upgrading the 2nd and 3rd lines IMO

Monahan and Tkachuk will be fine where they are so long as you have two speedy, talented line mates with them.

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55 minutes ago, JTech780 said:

 

I personally think this team needs to upgrade Monahan and get a true number 2 center if we want to improve and take another step. Getting a true number 1 center would take a lot of the load off of Gaudreau, who currently has to carry Monahan offensively and defensively and that's just too much to ask from him.

 

110%

 

Monahan is actually our upgraded 2nd line C. We need to target a #1 C.  Unfortunately, a #1 C is going to cost a player of Gaudreau's stature.  Or even Tkachuk.  But still, if that's the price then that's the price.  A stud C is more important than stud winger.

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25 minutes ago, The_People1 said:

 

110%

 

Monahan is actually our upgraded 2nd line C. We need to target a #1 C.  Unfortunately, a #1 C is going to cost a player of Gaudreau's stature.  Or even Tkachuk.  But still, if that's the price then that's the price.  A stud C is more important than stud winger.

 

I honestly don't know if Monahan can produce away from Gaudreau, that's the hard part with Monahan. He can't exactly carry the play on his own he needs someone to do it for him.

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16 minutes ago, JTech780 said:

 

I honestly don't know if Monahan can produce away from Gaudreau, that's the hard part with Monahan. He can't exactly carry the play on his own he needs someone to do it for him.

Is it really though ? Isn't it really more about how you do go about complimenting players such as Monahan and Tkachuk. Simply having a "true" #1 C doesn't guarantee you anything. Tavares was a #1 C in NY and now TOR with nothing to show for it so far. Overall team talent is what wins.

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2 hours ago, JTech780 said:

 

I get what you are saying, but when Bennett is the only one who brings the intangibles that he does to the team, and he has shown time and time again that he is a big game performer, I just don't see how we can trade that away.

 

I also think that Bennett has been given crappy linemates for most of his career and then we question why he isn't producing. Last year it was Jankowski and Neal, neither of whom played at a consistent NHL level. Before that it was Brouwer.

 

Give him better players to play with and let's see what he can do. Heck even a line of Bennett-Ryan-Czarnik, would be the most skilled line he's played on since his rookie year when he played with Backlund.

 

I don't doubt what you are saying.  But the other side of that is that even when he's played brief stints with Gaudreau, he hasn't done much.  May be just that he's not a consistent player, so the brief stints do not turn into long term stints.

 

The quality of linemates may be part.  Then again, Janko is suffering from lack of scoring playing mostly with Bennett.

Keep him, but play him anywhere but with Janko and Neal.  If we have a vacancy on Backlund's line, try him there.

 

I guess the problem is that he plays LW and Mangioapane is trending towards a top 6 player, playing crap minutes for a lot of his games.  JH and Tkachuk are for sure the top 2 LW's we have.

That leaves Bennett switching to C or RW to play in the top 6.

If he's a top 6 player, he needs to score like one.

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, JTech780 said:

 

I honestly don't know if Monahan can produce away from Gaudreau, that's the hard part with Monahan. He can't exactly carry the play on his own he needs someone to do it for him.

 

Mangiapane.  Lindholm.  Dube.  These guys can drive the play.  Not as well as Gaudreau but we won't know their chemistry with Monahan unless we try it.  Lindholm and Monahan seem to work well together.

 

Monahan also doesn't need to score 82 once he's the second line C.  Even 65 is pretty good for that role.

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3 hours ago, The_People1 said:

 

110%

 

Monahan is actually our upgraded 2nd line C. We need to target a #1 C.  Unfortunately, a #1 C is going to cost a player of Gaudreau's stature.  Or even Tkachuk.  But still, if that's the price then that's the price.  A stud C is more important than stud winger.

 

So, if we were to target Duchene as the 1st line C, would that be enough to bump Monahan down?

Could then move Backlund for an upgrade on RW or on D.

We could probably use Ryan on the 3rd and Janko on the 4th line.

Trade Frolik + 202 1st for Zucker.

Trade Backlund for Trouba.

Trade Bennett for Fischer.

Trade Brodie for decent goalie.

 

Let's see.....

JH-Duchene-Zucker

Tkachuk-Monahan-Lindholm

Neal-Ryan-Fischer

Mangiapane-Janko-Dube

 

Gio-Trouba

Hanifin-Hamonic

Valimaki-Andersson

Kylington

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2 hours ago, travel_dude said:

 

So, if we were to target Duchene as the 1st line C, would that be enough to bump Monahan down?

Could then move Backlund for an upgrade on RW or on D.

We could probably use Ryan on the 3rd and Janko on the 4th line.

Trade Frolik + 202 1st for Zucker.

Trade Backlund for Trouba.

Trade Bennett for Fischer.

Trade Brodie for decent goalie.

 

Let's see.....

JH-Duchene-Zucker

Tkachuk-Monahan-Lindholm

Neal-Ryan-Fischer

Mangiapane-Janko-Dube

 

Gio-Trouba

Hanifin-Hamonic

Valimaki-Andersson

Kylington

 

I don't think Duchene is that much of an upgrade over Monahan.

 

Marner potentially is.  But he will cost Gaudreau+.  

 

We can take a chance on Nylander at C.

 

Maybe try to pry Nolan Patrick and develop him into a #1 C.  But he's going to cost Monahan.  And we have to develop him still and there are no promises.

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2 hours ago, The_People1 said:

 

I don't think Duchene is that much of an upgrade over Monahan.

 

Marner potentially is.  But he will cost Gaudreau+.  

 

We can take a chance on Nylander at C.

 

Maybe try to pry Nolan Patrick and develop him into a #1 C.  But he's going to cost Monahan.  And we have to develop him still and there are no promises.

I have to agree, production wise Monahan has been slightly better over the course of their careers.  While he may benefit from playing with Gaudreau, it's not like Duchene has never had high quality players play with him.  If we were going to pay 9+ per season it'd better be a clear upgrade which Duchene isn't.  Right now I think we're doing 2 things undervaluing the current roster with the exception of Neal of course, and overvaluing players from other teams.  If we were Tampa we would probably be doing the same with questioning Stamkos, Kucherov, Point and Vasilevsky.

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22 minutes ago, sak22 said:

I have to agree, production wise Monahan has been slightly better over the course of their careers.  While he may benefit from playing with Gaudreau, it's not like Duchene has never had high quality players play with him.  If we were going to pay 9+ per season it'd better be a clear upgrade which Duchene isn't.  Right now I think we're doing 2 things undervaluing the current roster with the exception of Neal of course, and overvaluing players from other teams.  If we were Tampa we would probably be doing the same with questioning Stamkos, Kucherov, Point and Vasilevsky.

 

I don't like Duchene's game overall.  He has tunnel vision when he has the puck.  He tries to do too much by himself.

 

I wouldn't target him.

 

And yes, Tampa needs to question their core too.  It's legit.  

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I appear to have successfully derailed the conversation into almost nothing about James Neal,

 

And for that I am truly proud of myself ;)

 

 

Derailed as it may be, now you guys are talking about actual solutions.   Neal Might be a small piece to that in terms of opening up cap room, but I doubt it.

 

As already arrived at above, you're looking at a major move.  If you want to deal with the core problem.    Obviously hard for us to all agree on what that is, but, agreeing on that reality would be a nice start.

 

And if you're making a major move, then, current salary structure is tossed out of the window anyway, thus James may or may not be relevant.  Depends if you go older and ruin the team with a player in decline and a huge salary (which people always seem to love for some reason), or if you go younger and thus there likely is no cap issue at that point.

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9 hours ago, jjgallow said:

I appear to have successfully derailed the conversation into almost nothing about James Neal,

 

And for that I am truly proud of myself ;)

 

 

Derailed as it may be, now you guys are talking about actual solutions.   Neal Might be a small piece to that in terms of opening up cap room, but I doubt it.

 

As already arrived at above, you're looking at a major move.  If you want to deal with the core problem.    Obviously hard for us to all agree on what that is, but, agreeing on that reality would be a nice start.

 

And if you're making a major move, then, current salary structure is tossed out of the window anyway, thus James may or may not be relevant.  Depends if you go older and ruin the team with a player in decline and a huge salary (which people always seem to love for some reason), or if you go younger and thus there likely is no cap issue at that point.

 

Does that make you a troll?

Neal has little to do with the success and failure of this team.

At least last year that was true.

What is also true is that you can't buy him out or trade him when his value is nil.

He was not the only guy on the team to underperform.

 

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5 minutes ago, travel_dude said:

Does that make you a troll?

Neal has little to do with the success and failure of this team.

At least last year that was true.

What is also true is that you can't buy him out or trade him when his value is nil.

He was not the only guy on the team to underperform.

 

Trolls deep down don't believe at all in the goals of the communities they post in.    But they post anyway.  

 

My typical range is between constructive criticism to slight anger.    With full support during playoffs as a rule.  I want the cup here.

 

I also agree with you, that his value is nil and thus our options are highly limited.  Now, he Could have had a lot to do with the success of this team.    So, really the best thing you can do imho is work with him to figure out the issue and get him closer to his potential.   Which is way, way higher than his trade value right now.

 

Other guys, however, our regular season warriors and playoff no-shows,   they have value.  A LOT of value.   IMHO, a lot more than they're really worth if they consistently fail to show up in the playoffs.    So I am glad some of them were mentioned above.

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33 minutes ago, jjgallow said:

 

Trolls deep down don't believe at all in the goals of the communities they post in.    But they post anyway.  

 

My typical range is between constructive criticism to slight anger.    With full support during playoffs as a rule.  I want the cup here.

 

I also agree with you, that his value is nil and thus our options are highly limited.  Now, he Could have had a lot to do with the success of this team.    So, really the best thing you can do imho is work with him to figure out the issue and get him closer to his potential.   Which is way, way higher than his trade value right now.

 

Other guys, however, our regular season warriors and playoff no-shows,   they have value.  A LOT of value.   IMHO, a lot more than they're really worth if they consistently fail to show up in the playoffs.    So I am glad some of them were mentioned above.

 

The impact of the troll is what sets them apart.

Not implying you are one because you do care.

Or you like to start wars.  :) 

 

We've had 3 playoffs since the rebuild.

The first one was luck and playing above the skill level of the whole team.

Come back kids.  Winning when we should have lost.

No chance against a tough ANA team.

The 2nd one was a not well coached and we relied on goaltending where we didn't have it.

We actually played better than ANA and lost.

The third was nothing like the others.

So, you could say we are regular season champs and playoff chumps, but it's not that simple.

 

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On 5/23/2019 at 6:49 PM, The_People1 said:

 

I don't think Duchene is that much of an upgrade over Monahan.

 

Marner potentially is.  But he will cost Gaudreau+.  

 

Hmm. Colour me confused here, but are we looking for an upgrade on Monahan or an upgrade at the Center position? 

 

- Duchene may be had at no roster or prospect cost whatsoever. 

- He seems to drive play and have good zone entries.

- My eye test says his footspeed bests Monahan.

 

Toronto didn’t sign Tavares because he was better than Matthews, but Tavares made the Leafs a much more difficult team to match up against and beat. Duchene should be a consideration for us in the same regard. 

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On ‎6‎/‎1‎/‎2019 at 9:17 PM, lou44291 said:

 

Hmm. Colour me confused here, but are we looking for an upgrade on Monahan or an upgrade at the Center position? 

 

- Duchene may be had at no roster or prospect cost whatsoever. 

- He seems to drive play and have good zone entries.

- My eye test says his footspeed bests Monahan.

 

Toronto didn’t sign Tavares because he was better than Matthews, but Tavares made the Leafs a much more difficult team to match up against and beat. Duchene should be a consideration for us in the same regard. 

Duchene is definitely faster than Monahan no question but I don't think this should be the consideration. Build better lines and especially one involving Tkachuk. I don't think anyone should be paying Duchene much more than he is making now or max 6.5M. If the Flames could land him for this amount they should do it. RW is somewhat under construction depend on what Treliving decides to do this offseason but Duchene would provide a good C option.

Tkachuk, Duchene, ??????

Gaudreau, Monahan, ?????

Bennett, Lindholm, ??????

Mangiapane, Ryan, ??????

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1 hour ago, GM_3300 said:

Duchene is definitely faster than Monahan no question but I don't think this should the consideration. Build better lines and especially one involving Tkachuk. I don't think anyone should be paying Duchene much more than he is making now or max 6.5M. If the Flames could land him for this amount they should do it. RW is somewhat under construction depend on what Treliving decides to do this offseason but Duchene would provide a good C option.

Tkachuk, Duchene, ??????

Gaudreau, Monahan, ?????

Bennett, Lindholm, ??????

Mangiapane, Ryan, ??????

 

Considering the salary guys are getting and will get as UFA's, $6.5m is not realistic.

Maybe that's all he's worth, but it's not going to happen.

He will sign for $8m with a team.  Maybe if they go full term they can get that number a bit lower.

He's 28 and 8 years is a lot of time for a player lke that.

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On 5/23/2019 at 2:44 PM, travel_dude said:

 

So, if we were to target Duchene as the 1st line C, would that be enough to bump Monahan down?

Could then move Backlund for an upgrade on RW or on D.

We could probably use Ryan on the 3rd and Janko on the 4th line.

Trade Frolik + 202 1st for Zucker.

Trade Backlund for Trouba.

Trade Bennett for Fischer.

Trade Brodie for decent goalie.

 

Let's see.....

JH-Duchene-Zucker

Tkachuk-Monahan-Lindholm

Neal-Ryan-Fischer

Mangiapane-Janko-Dube

 

Gio-Trouba

Hanifin-Hamonic

Valimaki-Andersson

Kylington

Another good one.  To end up more or less the same it is imperative to either sign Duchene, offer sheet Point, or maybe go all-in with either Getzlaf or Malkin.  The 1C is the key and there are very, very few options for that guy. I have serious doubts Chicago would trade Toews, or Philly Couterier, or Dallas Seguin.  Who else might fit the bill.... just spit-balling here......

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22 hours ago, travel_dude said:

 

Considering the salary guys are getting and will get as UFA's, $6.5m is not realistic.

Maybe that's all he's worth, but it's not going to happen.

He will sign for $8m with a team.  Maybe if they go full term they can get that number a bit lower.

He's 28 and 8 years is a lot of time for a player lke that.

Then you keep looking. I wouldn't mind Treliving checking in with STL to see if Schenn is available

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