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jjgallow

This requires an overhaul, not an adjustment

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4 hours ago, cccsberg said:

Top Line:  Monahan is a complementary player not a driver,

 

Flames had a choice when they assembled this team, they could have developed Monahan into a dominant player in the AHL and then brought him up, or they could have developed him as a supporting player in the NHL.   They choose the latter, because they were in "win now" mode lol.

 

We need to take a step back and determine what the fans priorities are.     If that's the regular season, then, the Flames really nailed this rebuild.

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14 hours ago, robrob74 said:

 

I’d go with trading Monahan over Gaudreau, maybe both? Monahan can kind of create space, but once things get tight he doesn’t do much else.  I get that you gotta score goals, but we just saw over two months what happens when he’s not scoring meaningful goals. 

 

But i also think Smith played well enough to win 4 games. The team didn’t show up for 75% of the series. I might be being generous with that estimate. 

 

I like how the D is shaping up. Valamaki and Andersson are shaping up to being a top pair. 

 

I think we can build from there. I expect next year to be another set back, but hopefully Lindholm can develop a step further. 

 

But like you said, Gaudreau doesn’t have the strength, at least not to do it on his own. If you get an actual stud C or RW I think that could change. Monahan is good but because they’re way too similar in temperament, they don’t make space for themselves by being a touch mean. 

 

I think because gaudreau is such a polarizing player it looks way more of an effect when he gets shut down, but when there’s no help, it gets easier to. It’s easy to blame him.

at the trading deadline , I proposed a monahan/gaudreau/ neal trade to Ottawa for Stone and Tkachuk,, sure would looks good now

 

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4 hours ago, MAC331 said:

Why would you "expect next year to be another setback" ? This team is prime go forward mode to contend on a consistent basis now. BT should be able to improve on this core not start dismantling.

 

Granted Monahan and Gaudreau was younger in the previous playoffs, but they’ve been proven to be shut down in their playoff performances. I guess that can change? But every year after the all star break that line has been easier to shut down. Not necessarily easier as teams work harder to concentrate on them. Monahan doesn’t bring anything to the table if he isn’t scoring.

 

They need to figure out more ways to open themselves up in the offensive zone.

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47 minutes ago, jjgallow said:

 

Flames had a choice when they assembled this team, they could have developed Monahan into a dominant player in the NHL and then brought him up, or they could have developed him as a supporting player in the NHL.   They choose the latter, because they were in "win now" mode lol.

 

We need to take a step back and determine what the fans priorities are.     If that's the regular season, then, the Flames really nailed this rebuild.

 

Nope! 

 

It’s never really what the fans want. The fans do want playoffs, but the owners want playoffs at all costs. It’s why we got in a mess having to rebuild and now why we haven’t developed players like what you said.

 

the owners want money, period. They’re the ones happiest to just have 1 round of the playoffs.

 

i am like you and wanted the team to build slow and methodical. We have a good team with high skill. But a lot of these skilled players are also high danger turnover machines as well. It’s a costly trade off. 

 

Stats say turnovers ans mistakes are down, but when and where they happen are more the problem.

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27 minutes ago, robrob74 said:

 

Nope! 

 

It’s never really what the fans want. The fans do want playoffs, but the owners want playoffs at all costs. It’s why we got in a mess having to rebuild and now why we haven’t developed players like what you said.

 

the owners want money, period. They’re the ones happiest to just have 1 round of the playoffs.

 

i am like you and wanted the team to build slow and methodical. We have a good team with high skill. But a lot of these skilled players are also high danger turnover machines as well. It’s a costly trade off. 

 

Stats say turnovers ans mistakes are down, but when and where they happen are more the problem.

 

Agreed. 

 

When 50 shots against is normal, there's a problem.

 

Some good points brought up on here about getting a top playmaking center.

 

The reallity is, there's only one way that will happen.   Trade for picks, get Jack Hughes.

 

Of course you probably don't actually get Jack Hughes, but if the Flames took their chances acquiring 2-3 lottery picks, the consolation prizes are pretty amazing (Kirby Datch, Dylan Kozens).

 

Gio, Brodie, Gaudreau, Monahan, our existing first rounder, next year's first rounder, are just some of the players and assets avaiailable for getting such picks.  Or upgrading our existing one.   Personally, of everyone in that list, I would keep Monahan if I had to pick one.  But none of them are untouchable.    

 

We don't have  whole lot that is untouchable.  Maybe Valimaki, Tkachuk.

 

Defense and goaltending are trickier due to the development time.

 

 

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5 hours ago, jjgallow said:

 

agreed.  but why bother getting in the playoffs if you have no way of competing in them?     Thus overhaul.

So to compare our season with Edmonton would you rather play 5 playoff games or have an 8th OA pick?

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The rebuild went fine. Yeah you didn’t get any lotto luck, but Gaudreau goes 2nd overall in a 2011 re-draft and you got him in the 4th round. Tkachuk likely goes at worst 3rd in a 16 re-draft and you got him at 6 and your 2 biggest arch rivals passed on him. Right there you have essentially 2 lotto picks

 

I don’t see how Monahan was incorrectly developed. He scored 22 goals as a rookie without Johnny on a team that was complete garbage. I think he’s a really goodsupporting player that you can pencil in for 25-35 goals a season and 65-75 points. His skating is what will always hold him back though.

 

 

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So I get the massive gut reaction to tear it down after this Satoshi Nakamoto show in the playoffs. Frankly break it down, what cost us to lose? What did we lack not to win? How/Who is required to correct the Direction. 

What I Seen

1) This is not on JG, he does need some other line mates that push the play. How many times did he enter the zone single handed with no support. This happened in the last part of the season as well as last year under GG.

2) Turnovers. We turned the puck over at a prolific rate, because of poor decisions pressure and lack physical presence. 

3) The players that stood out in the AVs series out side of Smith, Bennett and Hathaway ( hmmm the most physical aggressive players  made a difference) 

4) To soft of play. When the going got tough everyone went invisible. 

5) No nastiness or playing mean. Far to easy of a time for the AV's we played that way all year. 

6) We fear speed, especially our d. Why because they are to small to win a battle, and to slow to contain.  

 

Everyone felt that smaller more skilled forwards is the trend. So we have, JG, Mags, Czariuk, Ryan in a puck battle with Cole, Zadoroff and Johnson how many battles did we win ( zero). Playoffs are a different animal and only the strong survive, any one see a trend! Our bottom six guys have to have more meat, more speed more nastiness to their game than what we have now. We need 2 Dman that are more stay at home in the trenches that can move the puck but are not push overs. 

 

Priority, is to get another top 3 forward either a Panarin, Hall type player that can reduce the traffic on JG and push the D back based on fear, similar to what happened to us. Get more D man that are similar to Hammer. Stay at home guys that can win battles add some grit and meat on the back end. Get rid of the passengers on this club. 

 

The only untochable on this club for me is Valimaki, Anderson, JG, Mony, Bennett, Hanifin, Hammer, Lindholm, The rest can be moved out. 

 

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, redfire11 said:

So to compare our season with Edmonton would you rather play 5 playoff games or have an 8th OA pick?

 

Absolutely rather have the 8th OA pick.     Every time.    That said, Edmonton is generally the best arguement against a rebuild strategy.   Or, just, generally, having an NHL team in Edmonton

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32 minutes ago, tmac70 said:

 

Everyone felt that smaller more skilled forwards is the trend.

 

 

For regular season play only

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43 minutes ago, jjgallow said:

 

Absolutely rather have the 8th OA pick.     Every time.    That said, Edmonton is generally the best arguement against a rebuild strategy.   Or, just, generally, having an NHL team in Edmonton

 

Rebuilding done right is drafting well in more than one round. Edmonton is proof that 1st overalls and not having other plans around that does not work.

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20 minutes ago, robrob74 said:

 

Rebuilding done right is drafting well in more than one round. Edmonton is proof that 1st overalls and not having other plans around that does not work.

 

And we got parts of that right.  I will say, in the last 5 years or so we have had excellent drafting.   So naturally, it blew my mind when we started giving up first rounders.

 

The thing is, with a guy like Gaudreau, he's the right drafting choice.   But that doesn't make him the right choice to head into the playoffs with.    If your team doesn't have the size to support that guy and he's shown multiple times the playoffs just aren't working out, that's where you trade that guy for a better shot at playoff success.

 

Edmonton had aweful drafting outside of the first round and in the first round.    They ruined nearly every player they touched.    That doesn't mean first round picks are useless, though.

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11 minutes ago, jjgallow said:

 

And we got parts of that right.  I will say, in the last 5 years or so we have had excellent drafting.   So naturally, it blew my mind when we started giving up first rounders.

 

The thing is, with a guy like Gaudreau, he's the right drafting choice.   But that doesn't make him the right choice to head into the playoffs with.    If your team doesn't have the size to support that guy and he's shown multiple times the playoffs just aren't working out, that's where you trade that guy for a better shot at playoff success.

 

Edmonton had aweful drafting outside of the first round and in the first round.    They ruined nearly every player they touched.    That doesn't mean first round picks are useless, though.

 

 

Yup! Edmonton ruined their guys because their teams have been bad. We need 1st rounders.

 

Well, Gaudreau is the right choice, but Gaudreau can’t be the only choice. Monahan and Lindholm were too quiet. Tkachuk is supposed to be the ultimate playoff performer, but didn’t really show either. Tkachuk has the opportunity to play big as he ages. 

 

So much went wrong. But I see how you think. McKinnon willed his team to win and got the team skating. You’re right that Gaudreau didn’t do that. 

 

 

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I dont think we need a Massive overhaul here What we Need is more scring through out the line up something neal was suppose to help with we dont have enough of flexability with scoring all through the line-up to allow More danger if you defend the top line we seen that you Defend Calgarys top line were finished that is what we need fixed trading Jh isnt fix that firing Bt isnt gonna fix that we have a Great Base of players here it is to add with what we have and make it more Dangerous then it is Right now

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You know TDL and not getting Stone...you have to think that RW Power forward type or even C is one thing we lacked...can’t help but feel that could have made a massive difference...

 

the other thought, mackinnon comments reminded me of

comments from 2004 about Iggy willing the team to win...funny he was a power RW mmmm, seeing a trend for playoffs?

 

in any event, there are some

iaauws to address but nothing huge I don’t think tinkering should be fine to resolve most of theses issues except this lazy slow start trend...intensity boys find your intensity and will to win...it’s a mind set issue you need to have the win/win mentality this group has not learned it yet 

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We have good scoring depth.  Weren’t we the only team in like, 20 years to have 5 seventy point players? We had 4 30 goal scorers too.  Hathaway and Ryan had more than 10 goals each playing 4th line.  Scoring should have been a strength, but it was like everyone went cold at the same time.  I think Brodie led the team in goals, and Bennett in points.  That’s generally not a great sign.

 

We also have some of those physical guys, but key guys like Tkachuk and Hamonic didn’t show.  I give the Avs tons of credit, but we didn’t play our game.

 

On a related note, this makes two years in a row where the team drastically worsened after the league mandated week long break.  Our top line never seemed as threatening after that.  Maybe we need to encourage guys like Mony and Johnny to stay closer to home during that break.  Maybe a little less boozing it up in the Bahamas (or wherever they went) and a little more working out would help them stay focussed.

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1 hour ago, ABC923 said:

We have good scoring depth.  Weren’t we the only team in like, 20 years to have 5 seventy point players? We had 4 30 goal scorers too.  Hathaway and Ryan had more than 10 goals each playing 4th line.  Scoring should have been a strength, but it was like everyone went cold at the same time.  I think Brodie led the team in goals, and Bennett in points.  That’s generally not a great sign.

 

We also have some of those physical guys, but key guys like Tkachuk and Hamonic didn’t show.  I give the Avs tons of credit, but we didn’t play our game.

 

On a related note, this makes two years in a row where the team drastically worsened after the league mandated week long break.  Our top line never seemed as threatening after that.  Maybe we need to encourage guys like Mony and Johnny to stay closer to home during that break.  Maybe a little less boozing it up in the Bahamas (or wherever they went) and a little more working out would help them stay focussed.

I think Mony buckles under 82 games of pressure. Which is weird cause he carried his junior team for 3 years. I, couldnt and not many can handle the pressure of a pro league for 82 games. He, might need a veteran grey beard Center to lean on in an 82 game season.

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Colorado collapsing in front of the net like that. How do u counter that? Maybe, just get a full head of steam with the puck and bull doze them like bowling pins. Which would Create loose pucks in front?

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Since beating a very very poor Vancouver team a few years back, with our current core (Johnny, Mony, Backs, Brodie, Gio) this team is 2-12 in the playoffs.....I don't know if we will EVER win the cup with Johnny and Mony at the helm, they are just so so soft, you would almost literally not have known our #1 Center was playing.....that is a disgrace and can't happen...Mony is NOT a 1st line player in this league, if he does stay I think it's justifiable that the A on his jersey gets removed....captains don't get to just no show for 5 games when it matters most. If I am BT I think you at least have to pick up the phone and call New Jersey to see if their #1 would be in play if Johnny was the return, we also need to test the market for Monahan.

 

I disagree on the idea that our D is in trouble, yes this series was terrible. but the future is bright, with Valimaki and Andersson (who should get full time first pairing minutes next year) plus Kylington, we are in a good spot, the team just needs to approach Brodie about waiving his NTC, see where he would go and hope we can get a second for him.

 

BT better come with a strong response because next season, his job is on the line if we eff this up again.

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16 hours ago, redfire11 said:

So to compare our season with Edmonton would you rather play 5 playoff games or have an 8th OA pick?

No way! I’ll take that 5 games of playoff experience every time. There are no guarantees those draft picks even pan out. Playoff experience is invaluable , only a select few get to experience it. All teams  participate in the draft, so there’s no exclusive advantage. Unless your drafting an immediate impact player there’s little to no immediate benefit to the draft. Playoff experience impacts your team immediately and sets you up for the near future. and energizes the city you live in. 

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On 2019-04-19 at 11:13 PM, jjgallow said:

 

OK.

 

I was sportsmanlike for the playoffs.  Which ended one minute ago for the Flames.

 

The Flames had a truly improbable regular season, succeeding like they had not in years.   Then, the moment the first playoff puck dropped, they did EXACTLY what many of us feared for the last 5 years.   They showed us what a faulty rebuild looks like.   They created a Regular Season team.  And you can't fix that.  You can only Overhaul that.

 

Treliving:    This is ALL under his watch.    He traded away actual defense, he brought in highly questionable defensemen, he threw away draft picks.   He has to go.  For the draft picks alone, he needs to go.  For thinking Gaudreau could succeed in the post-season, he needs to be double-gone.  For filling our defence with misguided forwards, he needs to go.  3 strikes.

 

Gaudreau:   No.  Just no.  He cannot play in the playoffs.  He never could.  He never will.   He's fantastic in the regular season, and on European ice.   I've been asking for us to trade him since before he made it into the NHL.     Never has this been more true.  He still has Massive value.   A large team would absolutely take a chance on him and pay more than full price.    

 

The Flames will NEVER, ever win a cup with Gaudreau on the team.   That's just how market caps work.    If we intend to win the cup, he must be traded and he must be traded in this off-season.   Preferably for prospects or draft picks, because quite honestly our rebuild needs a do-over.

 

While they're at it, they need to trade away any other skilled player who can't translate in the playoffs.  It's not about size, it's about strength.  Gaudreau will just never be strong enough for the post-season.

 

Defence:  We're absolutely screwed here.  This is why we need to rebuild.   We have a bunch of defencemen who are actually forwards.  Nobody who knows how to keep the puck out of our end (except maybe the aging Gio).    Nobody with any size, nobody with any sense.   Trades are needed here, but ultimately we have to build this up from the ground up.

 

Goaltending:  Yeah ok.   Mike Smith played ok, but not well enough.   Not Nearly well enough.   Yeah, our goalies were better than I thought.  But neither Rittich nor Smith were Ever stanley cup material or playoff material.   So WHY, then we did we invest so much in them?    Why did we invest NHL development minutes into goalies who could Never, ever take us where we need to go?   Our goaltending coach makes us the laughing stock of the NHL.   All that needs to be fixed.   We need elite goaltending prospects.  And we need a development system because our development system has one of the worst track records in NHL history.   Which would be okay, but we haven't even Considered changing methods, or goaltending coaches, or our drafting methods, or Anything.  We just keep doing the same.

 

 

Fire Treliving, and the Healing can start.

Personally I keep BT, he’s done more good than harm when you look at the big picture. Brouwer, Neal are forgettable but he’s made some nice acquisitions and extended with good value contracts. He’s active, he’s aggressive he’s still one of the better GMs in the league imo. 

 

Johnny Hockey. Our newest whipping boy undoubtedly failed to show up again this playoffs. If we trade Johnny, who do we replace the near 100 pts of production with at his price range and age. I’d love a Brad Marchand type player, skilled and great in the playoffs but he’s 5 years older than JH...and the cap is comparable. We’d need to acquire a guy like McKinnon or Barkov to replace the production, age and cap hit. Don’t see that happening tbh. I think JH will be fine but he does need better protection and a playmaking C. 

 

Defence. JJ you went in on them! Lol, I’m actually pretty comfortable where we’re at defensively. 1 nice discovery this season was the amount depth we have on D now. TJ Brodie is now expendable because of it, there’s a ton of young, mobile D men on our roster. Imagine if we’d been able to keep Adam Fox!...regardless I’d say we have one of the deepest stables of D men in the league right now. Ppl do forget we had a bunch of rookie D men in one of the franchises most successful seasons. It’s a good sign I’d say. 

 

Goaltending. Rittich was a great story to start the year! BSD! Played a nice role in our success this year. Smitty was our playoff MVP. We actually have one of the better tandems in the league. I honestly think goaltending has been one of our strengths this season. I’m expecting we stick with this same tandem for next season to the chagrin of many I’m sure. We still have Gillies, Parsons, McDonald and that recent Russian goalie we just added in the pipeline. I think Flames have been active in acquiring goalies, Elliot...almost had Bishop now we got Smitty. Not to mention finding Rittich a couple years back. We don’t have a true #1 but look what we achieved with our 1a and 1b options. Not too bad!

 

The autopsy will happen this off season, if we are blowing things up we have to consider our current options. Fire BT? Who’s his qualified replacement that stands head and shoulders above him? Trade Gaudreau? For who? And at what cost? Same can be said with goaltending and D. We need to be careful not to overreact as it’s still a crucial period for the Flames. 

 

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1 hour ago, rickross said:

The autopsy will happen this off season, if we are blowing things up we have to consider our current options. Fire BT? Who’s his qualified replacement that stands head and shoulders above him? Trade Gaudreau? For who? And at what cost? Same can be said with goaltending and D. We need to be careful not to overreact as it’s still a crucial period for the Flames. 

 

 

I agree with a lot of what you said, to certain extents.

 

One thing I would like to say is that blowing things up can be an incredibly positive thing for a team.   At least, for a team in a real hockey city.

 

Edmonton not being the best example, nearly all stanley cup winners have a rebuild in their not-to-distant past.   

 

I just don't care about the regular season wins, they don't interest or excite me in the least.   I don't even care about making the playoffs.  It is a false pretense and a waste of thought.

 

What's interesting is the build that leads up to a cup winner.    The creation of a championship.   In that, making the playoffs is irrelevant.   If you don't have a Stanley cup winning team you won't make the playoffs, simple as that, and who cares.   Just means you're not done yet.

 

A lot of people associate a rebuild with recklessness, or an over-reaction.   This just isn't true.  What is reckless is Waiting until your current core has no value.  That is the mistake we made in the last rebuild, trading away our best players (Iginla etc) for literally nothing.   Rebuiding earlier than later isn't reckless, it's having foresight.   Had we rebuilt just a Little earlier last time, Nathan Mackinnon or better would likely be on the Flames and we would be a very different story.  Gaudreau would still be here, too.

 

A lot of people also associate a rebuild with negativity.   All it really is, is a reallity check.  Rebuilds are triggered by a reallity check.   And everything after that point is positive to a hockey-minded fan base.   Let's be honest, we love Gaudreau.   But if we start next season with Jack Hughes instead of him,  Nobody here will have a hard time being optimistic (except those who need instant results)

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2 hours ago, rickross said:

No way! I’ll take that 5 games of playoff experience every time. There are no guarantees those draft picks even pan out. Playoff experience is invaluable , only a select few get to experience it. All teams  participate in the draft, so there’s no exclusive advantage. Unless your drafting an immediate impact player there’s little to no immediate benefit to the draft. Playoff experience impacts your team immediately and sets you up for the near future. and energizes the city you live in. 

I am with you rick (or) ross I would rather do 50 or so excited fist pumps in the air during the regular season and once in the playoffs than hope the 8th oa pick in the next 2/3 years turns into something.

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1 hour ago, jjgallow said:

 

I agree with a lot of what you said, to certain extents.

 

One thing I would like to say is that blowing things up can be an incredibly positive thing for a team.   At least, for a team in a real hockey city.

 

Edmonton not being the best example, nearly all stanley cup winners have a rebuild in their not-to-distant past.   

 

I just don't care about the regular season wins, they don't interest or excite me in the least.   I don't even care about making the playoffs.  It is a false pretense and a waste of thought.

 

What's interesting is the build that leads up to a cup winner.    The creation of a championship.   In that, making the playoffs is irrelevant.   If you don't have a Stanley cup winning team you won't make the playoffs, simple as that, and who cares.   Just means you're not done yet.

 

A lot of people associate a rebuild with recklessness, or an over-reaction.   This just isn't true.  What is reckless is Waiting until your current core has no value.  That is the mistake we made in the last rebuild, trading away our best players (Iginla etc) for literally nothing.   Rebuiding earlier than later isn't reckless, it's having foresight.   Had we rebuilt just a Little earlier last time, Nathan Mackinnon or better would likely be on the Flames and we would be a very different story.  Gaudreau would still be here, too.

 

A lot of people also associate a rebuild with negativity.   All it really is, is a reallity check.  Rebuilds are triggered by a reallity check.   And everything after that point is positive to a hockey-minded fan base.   Let's be honest, we love Gaudreau.   But if we start next season with Jack Hughes instead of him,  Nobody here will have a hard time being optimistic (except those who need instant results)

I blame the Oilers for the stigma surrounding rebuilding. I agree, they don’t have to be painful if done right. I think what your saying is you can ultimately avoid full blown rebuilds by constantly upgrading/updating your roster. 

 

It took the Flames longer than it should have to admit they were in rebuild mode. At the time ownership and Feaster refused to even say the word ‘rebuild’, I’ll blame them for the delay! 

 

I get the excitement of building up a team but at some point you have to trust your core group. Shakeups can help reinvigorate teams for sure but you also need some form of consistency, the team has to gel and build chemistry. The message has be clear and that’s hard to do if your constantly changing the messenger(s).

 

Look at our good friend(ha!) The Edmonton Oilers, something like 5 GMs and 9 coaches in 10 years. It’s impossible to develop your team identity in an environment like that. 

 

Do do they Flames need a complete rebuild at this point? I don’t think so, we finished 2nd in the NHL but faltered in the playoffs. Tinkering is likely what’s on the menu, I can’t see BT undoing his investment at this point, atleast not completely.  As irrelevant as the regular season is, it matters because it’s the only way to get to the Cup. Just blows we squandered such a great season away. 

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1 hour ago, redfire11 said:

I am with you rick (or) ross I would rather do 50 or so excited fist pumps in the air during the regular season and once in the playoffs than hope the 8th oa pick in the next 2/3 years turns into something.

The Draft is essentially the playoffs for the losing teams! B)

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