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Horsman1

truculence rears it 's ugly head once again

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Well I'd hoped I'd never have to hear the word again but.. well The Flames core guys are as soft as marshmallows.. True that fighting is no longer prevalent in the "new" NHL but.. Fighting for the puck and gaining the boards and the front of the net is not!! We have a major problem at center in that our two biggest centermen.. Monahan and Jankowski just don't have enough gumption/balls/ tenacity/ muscle// whatever you want to call it.. To force themselves on the other teams and claim position.. Our other forward.. supposedly or best centerman.. Backlund.. Is a defensive forward.. Not an offensive second line center.. Our Dmen.. skate like Olympus. but couldn't move a gust of wing from the front of our net

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1 hour ago, Horsman1 said:

Well I'd hoped I'd never have to hear the word again but.. well The Flames core guys are as soft as marshmallows.. True that fighting is no longer prevalent in the "new" NHL but.. Fighting for the puck and gaining the boards and the front of the net is not!! We have a major problem at center in that our two biggest centermen.. Monahan and Jankowski just don't have enough gumption/balls/ tenacity/ muscle// whatever you want to call it.. To force themselves on the other teams and claim position.. Our other forward.. supposedly or best centerman.. Backlund.. Is a defensive forward.. Not an offensive second line center.. Our Dmen.. skate like Olympus. but couldn't move a gust of wing from the front of our net

 

I think the definition of truculent might have changed. The Avs played heavy but not a huge hitting style. Guys will day we outhit them. But the thing they did better was use their bodies more heavy on us than we did on them. They used it to slow us down, take away space, and lean on guys. How many times did it look like we were tugging them and the puck? 

 

I think we could defend with speed, but we didn’t. Their speed was faster than our speed. And when we got the puck, guys leaned on enough to slow down our speed. 

 

I loved the 4th line, but couldn’t get them out there. The 1st and 2nd lines played scared for the most part. Bennett was the only one to show up on the 3rd line. It’s a distasteful recipe for disaster.

 

Some won’t say truculence had no part in the series, but I agree with you because the Avs played bigger, faster and more determined. Bigger by having bodies on guys, bigger by two-handing our arms and ribs, bigger by swatting hands and slightly hooking. 220lbs vs guys Johnny, Mange, Ryan, Monahan...

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11 minutes ago, robrob74 said:

 

I think the definition of truculent might have changed. The Avs played heavy but not a huge hitting style. Guys will day we outhit them. But the thing they did better was use their bodies more heavy on us than we did on them. They used it to slow us down, take away space, and lean on guys. How many times did it look like we were tugging them and the puck? 

 

I think we could defend with speed, but we didn’t. Their speed was faster than our speed. And when we got the puck, guys leaned on enough to slow down our speed. 

 

I loved the 4th line, but couldn’t get them out there. The 1st and 2nd lines played scared for the most part. Bennett was the only one to show up on the 3rd line. It’s a distasteful recipe for disaster.

 

Some won’t say truculence had no part in the series, but I agree with you because the Avs played bigger, faster and more determined. Bigger by having bodies on guys, bigger by two-handing our arms and ribs, bigger by swatting hands and slightly hooking. 220lbs vs guys Johnny, Mange, Ryan, Monahan...

First let me say Mangiapane made a believer out of me that he can play at the NHL level however I believe there is only so much room for smaller players on any team. Players such as Gaudreau, Mangiapane, Czarnick and Dube can do very well with open ice but don't ask them to work the boards for you.

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1 hour ago, robrob74 said:

 

I think the definition of truculent might have changed. The Avs played heavy but not a huge hitting style. Guys will day we outhit them. But the thing they did better was use their bodies more heavy on us than we did on them. They used it to slow us down, take away space, and lean on guys. How many times did it look like we were tugging them and the puck? 

 

I think we could defend with speed, but we didn’t. Their speed was faster than our speed. And when we got the puck, guys leaned on enough to slow down our speed. 

 

I loved the 4th line, but couldn’t get them out there. The 1st and 2nd lines played scared for the most part. Bennett was the only one to show up on the 3rd line. It’s a distasteful recipe for disaster.

 

Some won’t say truculence had no part in the series, but I agree with you because the Avs played bigger, faster and more determined. Bigger by having bodies on guys, bigger by two-handing our arms and ribs, bigger by swatting hands and slightly hooking. 220lbs vs guys Johnny, Mange, Ryan, Monahan...

 

Well, you are describing douchebaggery at its finest.

We are not that team, no matter how people describe Tkachuk.

Somehow, the Flames get called when we looked sideways at a player, but the Avs get away with hacks, trips, picks etc with the refs watching.

 

Dirty teams win in this league because the refs turn a blind eye to half of it.  The Avs have two good players and a dirty one that has insane skill.

Nothing special about them.

Oilers with better defense.

A bit better scoring depth, but really only a handfull of guys scored.

All with the exact same shot.

High glove.  

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1 hour ago, travel_dude said:

 

Well, you are describing douchebaggery at its finest.

We are not that team, no matter how people describe Tkachuk.

Somehow, the Flames get called when we looked sideways at a player, but the Avs get away with hacks, trips, picks etc with the refs watching.

 

Dirty teams win in this league because the refs turn a blind eye to half of it.  The Avs have two good players and a dirty one that has insane skill.

Nothing special about them.

Oilers with better defense.

A bit better scoring depth, but really only a handfull of guys scored.

All with the exact same shot.

High glove.  

 

And that’s just it. We have players complaining to the refs because of it. I like that we are clean, although I sometimes wonder if I have rose coloured glasses on, but don’t think I do. Even Tkachuk is very clean in comparison to the other teams.

 

 We lost two or three playoffs in a row to two different dirty teams. It made Johnny and Monny play scared hockey until the last game.

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If the Avs are a dirty team the NHL is becoming a house league.  A couple wacks on Gaudreau were the only things I saw that were cheap plays.  The unfortunate thing is that the Flames do nothing more than whine to the refs.  Gaudreau might want to invest in some better quality gloves, or he needs to start dishing it out.  This team is pillow soft.  

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17 minutes ago, stubblejumper1 said:

If the Avs are a dirty team the NHL is becoming a house league.  A couple wacks on Gaudreau were the only things I saw that were cheap plays.  The unfortunate thing is that the Flames do nothing more than whine to the refs.  Gaudreau might want to invest in some better quality gloves, or he needs to start dishing it out.  This team is pillow soft.  

 

I didn’t see that cheap either, but other missed calls like high sticks, and a bit of holding and interference calls. The heavier players leaned on our smaller players more which slowed them down. Quick tugs and some hands off sticks all added up to slow us down.

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4 hours ago, stubblejumper1 said:

If the Avs are a dirty team the NHL is becoming a house league.  A couple wacks on Gaudreau were the only things I saw that were cheap plays.  The unfortunate thing is that the Flames do nothing more than whine to the refs.  Gaudreau might want to invest in some better quality gloves, or he needs to start dishing it out.  This team is pillow soft.  

 

You don;t watch Landeskog much I guess.

Hit the player all you want but leave the cheap hacks to peewee.

They showed one game where he was hacked in the hands 6 times.

Not little taps either.

That was one game.

Each one of those could have broken a finger, but he was lucky.

I guess that's okay.  Fault of the player for only weariing gloves.

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I Agree td there were alot of hacks and slashes that were not called and like ill use a example they called  nothing all fricken night and then all the sudden they decide backland of all penaltys is more sever then any of the other calls they havent called is any more serious

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playoff intensity will never go away.

 

and neither will the advantage of size and strength in the playoffs.

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On 2019-04-20 at 10:24 PM, travel_dude said:

 

You don;t watch Landeskog much I guess.

Hit the player all you want but leave the cheap hacks to peewee.

They showed one game where he was hacked in the hands 6 times.

Not little taps either.

That was one game.

Each one of those could have broken a finger, but he was lucky.

I guess that's okay.  Fault of the player for only weariing gloves.

 

Fault of the player for never, ever standing up for himself.  Gaudreau has 88 pims in 5 seasons.  He is obviously not here to take penalties, but that is only a minor every 9 games (I don't recall him ever taking a major or a misconduct).  I don't question his drive, he seems to be super competitive.  But, nobody thinks twice about taking shots at him because he rarely retaliates and he never initiates.  

 

If Gaudreau is taking slashes on the hands in a game that Colorado is leading 6-2 or 5-1, it might be time for him to start chopping wood.  Colorado players (and players from other teams) might think twice about slashing Gaudreau if the Avs lost Landeskog for the rest of the playoffs because Johnny broke Gabby's hand.  

 

Monahan was nominated for the Lady Byng.  That is an honour as an individual.  Johnny is a prime candidate for the lady byng, except he is constantly whining to the refs.  If your two best players (or two out of three if you feel Tkachuk belongs there) are pacifists, then you might want to surround them with some size/physicality.  

 

The nhl/referees obviously want the playoffs to be physical/chippy.  Most other teams understand that.  Are the Flames management like Justin Trudeau - naively leading the world to a better place at all costs?  

 

I am not in the camp for blowing up the team.  I think they are close to making a long playoff run.  However, they need to add a player or two with size (who can actually win a puck battle and crash the net), speed (not 4th line plugs) and who are physical (unlike Jankowski).  Easier said than done, but I don't think the current roster can have success in April/May. 

 

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4 hours ago, stubblejumper1 said:

If Gaudreau is taking slashes on the hands in a game that Colorado is leading 6-2 or 5-1, it might be time for him to start chopping wood.  Colorado players (and players from other teams) might think twice about slashing Gaudreau if the Avs lost Landeskog for the rest of the playoffs because Johnny broke Gabby's hand.  

 

Have you ever met or stood near Gaudreau?

 

I'm sorry but turning Gaudreau into a tough guy is actually one of the funniest proposals I have ever seen on this forum ;)

 

If you've been around for a while, you'll know that the Flames have extensive history with not getting the job done using small guys.   We tried all this with Theo Fleury.  And Theo, at least, had some strength and grit.

 

Gaudreau will never, ever have that.   Thinking that a guy his size could take us where we wanted to go in the playoffs is a mistake our organization has been making since 1990.   And both were problem players.  Theo has his daemons, and Gaudreau, well he doesn't even want to be here.  And these things were all known a long time ago.   We're talking about layers upon layers upon layers of incredibly dim-witted decisions that have resulted in us sending smaller and smaller and less motivated players out to go win in the playoffs.

 

So, I can't say we haven't learned from our mistakes.  We've actually learned from them, and amplified them.

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16 minutes ago, jjgallow said:

 

Have you ever met or stood near Gaudreau?

 

I'm sorry but turning Gaudreau into a tough guy is actually one of the funniest proposals I have ever seen on this forum ;)

 

If you've been around for a while, you'll know that the Flames have extensive history with not getting the job done using small guys.   We tried all this with Theo Fleury.  And Theo, at least, had some strength and grit.

 

Gaudreau will never, ever have that.   Thinking that a guy his size could take us where we wanted to go in the playoffs is a mistake our organization has been making since 1990.   And both were problem players.  Theo has his daemons, and Gaudreau, well he doesn't even want to be here.  And these things were all known a long time ago.   We're talking about layers upon layers upon layers of incredibly dim-witted decisions that have resulted in us sending smaller and smaller and less motivated players out to go win in the playoffs.

 

So, I can't say we haven't learned from our mistakes.  We've actually learned from them, and amplified them.

 

I wouldn’t say that all of our small guys are like that. A few get in the dirty areas and hit, but really they’re probably just bouncing off the other team, but I hear you on Johnny and how small the team is. 

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15 hours ago, jjgallow said:

 

playoff intensity will never go away.

 

and neither will the advantage of size and strength in the playoffs.

 

Like Elliotte Friedman said, he talks to many players who admit to him that they play, or are willing to play, much dirtier in the playoffs than in the regular season.  

 

Players simply have to turn up the dirt/intensity in the playoffs.  If we don't have it on this team, we have to start bringing some of that here.

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1 hour ago, jjgallow said:

 and Gaudreau, well he doesn't even want to be here.  And these things were all known a long time ago.  

Lol, where are you getting this BS from. You take some interview out of context and start spouting it like it's truth... Give it a rest 

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1 hour ago, jjgallow said:

 

Have you ever met or stood near Gaudreau?

 

I'm sorry but turning Gaudreau into a tough guy is actually one of the funniest proposals I have ever seen on this forum ;)

 

If you've been around for a while, you'll know that the Flames have extensive history with not getting the job done using small guys.   We tried all this with Theo Fleury.  And Theo, at least, had some strength and grit.

 

Gaudreau will never, ever have that.   Thinking that a guy his size could take us where we wanted to go in the playoffs is a mistake our organization has been making since 1990.   And both were problem players.  Theo has his daemons, and Gaudreau, well he doesn't even want to be here.  And these things were all known a long time ago.   We're talking about layers upon layers upon layers of incredibly dim-witted decisions that have resulted in us sending smaller and smaller and less motivated players out to go win in the playoffs.

 

So, I can't say we haven't learned from our mistakes.  We've actually learned from them, and amplified them.

Ah yes the undersized Flames roster from 89' - 99'. I see how any failures would be from having Theo on the roster.

 

The consistent negativity is starting to get tiresome.

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19 minutes ago, CalgarySTL said:

Lol, where are you getting this BS from. You take some interview out of context and start spouting it like it's truth... Give it a rest 

 

Multiple interviews now, and, his on-ice play in the playoffs, to be specific.

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The truth is probably somewhere in between. I highly doubt he wants out quite like you think he does. He had a bad playoffs... So did the majority of the team. Don't think that means everyone wants out of Calgary

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25 minutes ago, CalgarySTL said:

The truth is probably somewhere in between. I highly doubt he wants out quite like you think he does. He had a bad playoffs... So did the majority of the team. Don't think that means everyone wants out of Calgary

 

sure that's fair.  all I'm saying is that we claim he struggles in interviews, but, we know, truthfully, if he was on the Flyers they would not get this impression at all.  In fact they already don't.

 

More to the point, we just didn't build a playoff team.

 

That's not a tweak.

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1 hour ago, jjgallow said:
40 minutes ago, jjgallow said:

 

sure that's fair.  all I'm saying is that we claim he struggles in interviews, but, we know, truthfully, if he was on the Flyers they would not get this impression at all.  In fact they already don't.

 

More to the point, we just didn't build a playoff team.

 

That's not a tweak.

I don't doubt he'd like to play out east one day. I just don't think he wants out like, right now!

I do agree that it didn't look like a good "playoff team". Some retooling on the forwards may be all that's required though. Surround our skill with a little more grit. Maybe a new starting goalie as well (although I liked how Smith played in the postseason).

I think our young D will get better... Not too worried about the back-end

 

 

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3 hours ago, jjgallow said:

 

Have you ever met or stood near Gaudreau?

 

I'm sorry but turning Gaudreau into a tough guy is actually one of the funniest proposals I have ever seen on this forum ;)

 

If you've been around for a while, you'll know that the Flames have extensive history with not getting the job done using small guys.   We tried all this with Theo Fleury.  And Theo, at least, had some strength and grit.

 

Gaudreau will never, ever have that.   Thinking that a guy his size could take us where we wanted to go in the playoffs is a mistake our organization has been making since 1990.   And both were problem players.  Theo has his daemons, and Gaudreau, well he doesn't even want to be here.  And these things were all known a long time ago.   We're talking about layers upon layers upon layers of incredibly dim-witted decisions that have resulted in us sending smaller and smaller and less motivated players out to go win in the playoffs.

 

So, I can't say we haven't learned from our mistakes.  We've actually learned from them, and amplified them.

 

Gaudreau doesn't have to be a tough guy.  Maybe he just needs to stop screaming at and/or giving the refs the stink eye every single time someone gives him a slash.  If just once he would cross the line (like Sid did when he chopped off that defensman's finger tip) he might make players think twice about testing him.  You don't have to be big or strong to injure someone with a hockey stick - you just have to be willing to do it.  I am not condoning a lord of the flies scenario, but if the refs are letting things slide he may have to take advantage of the relaxed officiating.

 

I have been around for a while.  A small player the Flames gave up on was Martin. St. Louis...we all know how that ended. 

 

 

 

 

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11 minutes ago, stubblejumper1 said:

I have been around for a while.  A small player the Flames gave up on was Martin. St. Louis...we all know how that ended. 

 

Martin St Louis wasn't small, he was short and stocky.

 

He had some of the strongest legs in hockey.

 

https://www.tsn.ca/martin-st-louis-may-be-retiring-but-his-quads-never-will-1.323974

 

He is actually a perfect example of how wrong the Flames went here.

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THERE IS ABSOLUTELY NOTHING WRONG WITH HAVING A SMALL SKILLED PLAYER.. AS LONG AS THEY ARE TREATED AS A SUPPLEMENTAL OFFENSIVE FORWARD AND NOT THE MAIN GUY ON THE TEAM.. WE HAVE HAD MUCH SUCCESS WITH SMALL PLAYERS. ALBEIT LIMITED NUMBERS AT A TIME.. LOOB/ ST. LOUIS, FLEURY. GAUDREAU  ARE ALL EXAMPLES OF GREAT FLAME PLAYERS BUT.. THEY WERE IN ADDITION TO OTHER TOP 6 OFFENSIVE PLAYERS..OUR IMMEDIATE ISSUE IS THAT OUR TOP 2 OFFENSIVE CENTERS.. MONAHAN AND JANKO PLAY LIKE SMALL PLAYERS AND LACK INTENSITY.. WE HAVE CURRENTLY.. 4 TOP 6 PLAYERS.. GAUDREAU/MONAHAN /TKACHUK AND LINDSTROM.. BACKS IS NOT A TOP 6 FORWARD.. BUT HE IS ONE OF THE TOP 5 PREMIER DEFENSIVE CENTERS IN THE LEAGUE..

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18 hours ago, jjgallow said:

 

sure that's fair.  all I'm saying is that we claim he struggles in interviews, but, we know, truthfully, if he was on the Flyers they would not get this impression at all.  In fact they already don't.

 

More to the point, we just didn't build a playoff team.

 

That's not a tweak.

Then I guess the other first place Division leaders didn't build playoff teams either.

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8 hours ago, MAC331 said:

Then I guess the other first place Division leaders didn't build playoff teams either.

 

You got that right.    Facts are facts.

 

But, specifically the Flames and Tampa, as was the case in 2004, had the same playoff destiny:  Total and absolute failure.

 

This goes way beyond a first-round loss.

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