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JTech780

Calgary Flames 20/21 Roster and Lines

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So, projected lines for today:

 

Tkachuk-Lindholm-Leivo

Gaudreau-Monahan-Ritchie

Nordstrom-Backlund-Bennett

Lucic-Ryan-Mangiapane

 

Giordano-Andersson

Hanifin-Tanev

Nesterov-Stone

 

Markstrom (Starter)

Rittich

 

I've got only a minor problem with the defense.  Nesterov over Valimaki is puzzling, but I can understand the coach might not be impressed with Valimaki's recent play.

As far as the forward lines, I must have missed where Mangiapane was deserving of the demotion.  I get he took a penalty for "roughing up" Scheifele, but I thought he was the best player on his line.  

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A whole lot of poor decisions spread throughout that lineup. Makes little sense to me. 

 

Don't really get why they are willing to elevate Leivo to that spot but seem to refuse to put him with Gaudreau-Monahan where you know he's actually had some success? And you when you have the opportunity to sit your promising young dman in favor of a journeyman who cant skate you just have to do it. 

 

Very bizarre stuff. 

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16 minutes ago, travel_dude said:

So, projected lines for today:

 

Tkachuk-Lindholm-Leivo

Gaudreau-Monahan-Ritchie

Nordstrom-Backlund-Bennett

Lucic-Ryan-Mangiapane

 

Giordano-Andersson

Hanifin-Tanev

Nesterov-Stone

 

Markstrom (Starter)

Rittich

 

I've got only a minor problem with the defense.  Nesterov over Valimaki is puzzling, but I can understand the coach might not be impressed with Valimaki's recent play.

As far as the forward lines, I must have missed where Mangiapane was deserving of the demotion.  I get he took a penalty for "roughing up" Scheifele, but I thought he was the best player on his line.  

 

6 minutes ago, cross16 said:

A whole lot of poor decisions spread throughout that lineup. Makes little sense to me. 

 

Don't really get why they are willing to elevate Leivo to that spot but seem to refuse to put him with Gaudreau-Monahan where you know he's actually had some success? And you when you have the opportunity to sit your promising young dman in favor of a journeyman who cant skate you just have to do it. 

 

Very bizarre stuff. 

 

Agreed fully for both. Who knows - Sutter has some discovery to do with this group... 

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With Dube and Valimaki remaining out, I think it's as simple as Darryl is going with the same lineup that won last game.

 

As far as the lines go, I am not really sure, best I can come up with is that on the road he wants to have more balanced lines since he can't line match.

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3 minutes ago, JTech780 said:

With Dube and Valimaki remaining out, I think it's as simple as Darryl is going with the same lineup that won last game.

 

As far as the lines go, I am not really sure, best I can come up with is that on the road he wants to have more balanced lines since he can't line match.

Its another home game

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I really dislike this mentality of we won so we can't change the lineup idea. Sure if you played really well I would be more understanding but they won because Broissoit was bad not because they played at a high level. 

 

So putting out an inferior roster based on some weak mythology doesn't make sense to me and I hate it. Especially when it involves young players who should be part of the long term here. That's the part that gets me frustrated. 

 

On the lines, let's be honest it's throwing crap on a wall and seeing what sticks. That isn't a problem or necessarily a bad way to find line combos (as long as it doesn't become a pattern) but the combinations are a little weird given some of the underlying results and some of what hasn't been done in the past.

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3 minutes ago, sak22 said:

Its another home game

You are correct. Well then I got nothing.

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1 minute ago, cross16 said:

I really dislike this mentality of we won so we can't change the lineup idea. Sure if you played really well I would be more understanding but they won because Broissoit was bad not because they played at a high level. 

 

So putting out an inferior roster based on some weak mythology doesn't make sense to me and I hate it. Especially when it involves young players who should be part of the long term here. 

 

I understand what you're saying cross, and although we got a few lucky goals last game I like to think we created our own luck by doing the right things. Was it the ultimate effort and execution last game? No, we've all seen better from this group, but it's nice to see us get rewarded with some bounces by being in the right position on the ice (driving the net in Mange's case, putting it deep - and towards the net - in Bennett's). 

 

As for Val and Dubes, I wouldn't sweat it at all. We know they're part of the long term solution here, management knows, Sutter knows, I see it as a non-issue. In fact, there's a lot of growth that can occur when people/players "sit out", have time to reflect, and figure out for themselves what they can do to be better or differently. It's easier to encourage growth in people in their youth than when they're older and set in their ways. Perhaps Sutter is teaching these 2 some lessons that will stick with them throughout their careers here, and in turn they won't repeat what the current leadership group is doing. 

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3 minutes ago, lou44291 said:

 

I understand what you're saying cross, and although we got a few lucky goals last game I like to think we created our own luck by doing the right things. Was it the ultimate effort and execution last game? No, we've all seen better from this group, but it's nice to see us get rewarded with some bounces by being in the right position on the ice (driving the net in Mange's case, putting it deep - and towards the net - in Bennett's). 

 

As for Val and Dubes, I wouldn't sweat it at all. We know they're part of the long term solution here, management knows, Sutter knows, I see it as a non-issue. In fact, there's a lot of growth that can occur when people/players "sit out", have time to reflect, and figure out for themselves what they can do to be better or differently. It's easier to encourage growth in people in their youth than when they're older and set in their ways. Perhaps Sutter is teaching these 2 some lessons that will stick with them throughout their careers here, and in turn they won't repeat what the current leadership group is doing. 

Every player reacts differently to this stuff.  To me it seems like singling them out because they can still be sent down.  If I were one of them I don't know how I'd take it mentally, Sutters reasoning is that just okay isn't good enough, which I would be fine with if just okay wasn't something that can be said about everyone else, but because most have more experience or earn more money they will never get the same treatment.  Nordstrom finally got a point in a fluky manner, now he's up a line how long will his leash be if he continues to play exactly like his first 20?

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14 minutes ago, lou44291 said:

 

I understand what you're saying cross, and although we got a few lucky goals last game I like to think we created our own luck by doing the right things. Was it the ultimate effort and execution last game? No, we've all seen better from this group, but it's nice to see us get rewarded with some bounces by being in the right position on the ice (driving the net in Mange's case, putting it deep - and towards the net - in Bennett's). 

 

As for Val and Dubes, I wouldn't sweat it at all. We know they're part of the long term solution here, management knows, Sutter knows, I see it as a non-issue. In fact, there's a lot of growth that can occur when people/players "sit out", have time to reflect, and figure out for themselves what they can do to be better or differently. It's easier to encourage growth in people in their youth than when they're older and set in their ways. Perhaps Sutter is teaching these 2 some lessons that will stick with them throughout their careers here, and in turn they won't repeat what the current leadership group is doing. 

 

I'm not sweating it, I just don't like it because I hate the likely rationale behind it (idea that you win so you can't change the lineup).  Sending a message for a game is fine but 2 games when I would argue a 3rd of the lineup should be in the same position as Dube/Valimaki is what I don't like. 

 

You are not going to scratch a Gaudreau/Monahan etc, I get that. But when I see Ritchie get all this ice time with Gaudreau/Monahan with no result, Nesterov in there with limited results, refusal to split up Gaudreau/Monahan or gio/Andersson despite poor results I think criticism is fair game.  

 

I'm not bent out of shape about it, I just don't like it and I think it's fair to question it. 

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3 minutes ago, cross16 said:

I really dislike this mentality of we won so we can't change the lineup idea. Sure if you played really well I would be more understanding but they won because Broissoit was bad not because they played at a high level. 

 

So putting out an inferior roster based on some weak mythology doesn't make sense to me and I hate it. Especially when it involves young players who should be part of the long term here. 

 

I can't disagree with you, I just think this team as a whole is grasping at any straw they can to help win a game. The confidence is so fragile with this group, that you do whatever it takes to keep them moving in the right direction.

 

I am not super concerned about Dube and Valimaki yet, because in the long scheme of things a game or two isn't going to derail their development. That being said if they start sitting more game than they are playing going forward, then I will be concerned.

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27 minutes ago, cross16 said:

 

I'm not sweating it, I just don't like it because I hate the likely rationale behind it (idea that you win so you can't change the lineup).  Sending a message for a game is fine but 2 games when I would argue a 3rd of the lineup should be in the same position as Dube/Valimaki is what I don't like. 

 

You are not going to scratch a Gaudreau/Monahan etc, I get that. But when I see Ritchie get all this ice time with Gaudreau/Monahan with no result, Nesterov in there with limited results, refusal to split up Gaudreau/Monahan or gio/Andersson despite poor results I think criticism is fair game.  

 

I'm not bent out of shape about it, I just don't like it and I think it's fair to question it. 

 

Lucic makes a ton of mistakes and doesn't sit.

Cost the team a game with dumb penalty (yes, Marckstrom made a questionable decision to set up the 5 on 3).

Nesterov can do no wrong?

Gio and Ras are perfect together or you can't drop Gio or Ras to a third pairing.

Dube just okay, but other somehow escaped the knife?

Mangiapane gets a penalty and GWG, but he's the one that drops to the 4th line?

 

I get Sutter is a demanding coach, but he is making weird decisions on things I am not seeing.

Is this just his way of saying nobody should be comfortable?

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I think what your seeing is Sutter teaching the future players of the team what it takes to play to win. And how to play once the playoffs come around, I think he is saying that Dube and Val are part of the future core and they need to know when they’re not good enough, because he wants to shape them to help shape the organization. He’s not worried about Leivo, Ritchie, Stone, Nesterov, or even Backs, Gio, or Lucic. Because they are not gonna be part of the core. 
Look who he has specifically called out so far. Tkachuk which he said it was on him to get more involved in the game. Gaudreau saying he has to have more energy and he needs to figure out how to play at an elite level most games.

Now he is sitting Dube and Val to send a message and develop their game. 
He hasn’t called out Gio or Backs yet.

 

Obviously this is my own personal opinion, but it is what I see happening. 

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I wasn't saying not to question it - I was just looking for the reason why it's those 2 at the moment. And don't mistake for one second that Sutter wouldn't healthy scratch Johnny. That's why he called him out for his 500th. I'm certain Sutter would very well sit him. As Pikey said, I agree that those players that aren't part of the core moving forward will get longer leashes - heck, you can't sit the whole team. :)

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1 hour ago, lou44291 said:

I wasn't saying not to question it - I was just looking for the reason why it's those 2 at the moment. And don't mistake for one second that Sutter wouldn't healthy scratch Johnny. That's why he called him out for his 500th. I'm certain Sutter would very well sit him. As Pikey said, I agree that those players that aren't part of the core moving forward will get longer leashes - heck, you can't sit the whole team. :)

 

 

I wonder if it's time to sit guys who are part of this long term so they can clean the stink off of them. Maybe it's that Lindholm and Mangiapane are exempt. They tend to bring it most nights. 

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I think the discussion really has to be had of sending Dube and Valimaki down to the AHL. It's not warranted by their play, at least it isn't for me, but with how things are going around here I don't think i'd want them around. Get them in a better environment, give them a few things to work on and let them have some fun. 

 

 

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5 minutes ago, cross16 said:

I think the discussion really has to be had of sending Dube and Valimaki down to the AHL. It's not warranted by their play, at least it isn't for me, but with how things are going around here I don't think i'd want them around. Get them in a better environment, give them a few things to work on and let them have some fun. 

 

 

 

I've seen nothing to suggest that Dube belongs anywhere near Nordstrom.

Lucic has been a guy that has had some pretty bad shifts.

Ritchie?  Come on, he's a 4th line grinder.

The D pairs are just scary.

Let's hope that Hanifin-Stone is just a placeholder for a maintenance days for Tanev.

 

I've really lost hope with the last week or so of poor lineup choices.

Stone and Nesterov do not move the needle, not even low risk low reward.

Nordstrom and Ritchie are bit players at best.

Leivo takes the fall again.

 

I guess it's a plan to fail lineup.

Evaluate a certain style.

Hold the good players accountable for it, even if they are being sunk by bad players.

Trade away the talent to get a hard working team.

Re-tool every year.

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Ok that jets line up was horrible I think I mentioned it in the game

day thread before they played...anyway the point..or

question I bring to the table is:

 

what is Sutter doing? 
 

From what I can tell he’s evaluating everyone and doing what he can to show BT and owner ship later, that  x,y and Z players gotta go...look here’s the proof...

 

therefore we need A,B and C players...it’s either that mor Sutter has no clue...but that’s not the case he’s proven to be a great coach so I’m thinking all

of what he is doing is making a case for later on who stays , who goes...and who this team needs to go get.

 

I’m fine with that given 1. He’s got 3 years, and 2. It’s better than what we have now and if not, no harm done, we may see a few decent draft picks out of the whole thing in a worse case after 3 years

 

anyways the last game vs WPG, those lines were horrible, so if a simple

fan

could

see that, I’m positive a very proven vet coach knew what was gonna happen too. 

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6 hours ago, rocketdoctor said:

Tanev out for maintenance I hope.....

 

He got rocked last game... But stayed and finished the game.  Maybe the muscles cramping now.

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6 hours ago, cross16 said:

I think the discussion really has to be had of sending Dube and Valimaki down to the AHL. It's not warranted by their play, at least it isn't for me, but with how things are going around here I don't think i'd want them around. Get them in a better environment, give them a few things to work on and let them have some fun. 

 

Agreed.  They have been good at times during the season but at the same time, if they aren't good enough right now, then send them down.  

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5 minutes ago, JTech780 said:

Yet Stone and Nesterov stay in the lineup...?


i think we are in the process of ruining him. 
 

i think being an upgrade on those players doesn’t mean Sutter is wrong. While I think he can play in the NHL, I know I need to temper expectations, but still disappointed in his play this year, or just not as impressed as I’d have liked to. We’ve seen flashes.

 

id like to see them put him in the minors if he’s still not waiver exempt. He could work on these parts of his game and playing big minutes. His injury history has really hindered his development.

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8 minutes ago, JTech780 said:

Yet Stone and Nesterov stay in the lineup...?

With all those areas that need to improve, does sitting in the pressbox help that.

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