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2021 Calgary Flames NHL Draft

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1 hour ago, conundrumed said:

Having said that td, I can't help but wonder when Yzerman will take Wallstedt. #6?

He has 5 picks in the top 51 so room to maneuver with someone around our pick, philly or Rangers.

My vote is to take Wallstedt. Or we could be watching a rerun of Vasilevsky.

My feeling is Yzerman is in, "what do we need" mode, not bpa. See Moritz Seider. And he's deathly patient with prospects.

He's taken the team to ground level to build what he wants.

Getting a high calibre goalie in the draft is literally winning the draft. It's worth the risk or you pay through the teeth to get what's available for a good goalie in the future.

But it's the Flames. We were willing to wait 5 yrs for Jankowski while Vasi was establishing himself as the league's top goalie.

How bad has that Jankowaki trade down looked?

 

Give Janko credit, he at least turned into an NHLer, but they missed out on Vasilevskiy, Teravainen, Hertl, Wilson all went right behind the original Flames pick

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2 hours ago, conundrumed said:

Having said that td, I can't help but wonder when Yzerman will take Wallstedt. #6?

He has 5 picks in the top 51 so room to maneuver with someone around our pick, philly or Rangers.

My vote is to take Wallstedt. Or we could be watching a rerun of Vasilevsky.

My feeling is Yzerman is in, "what do we need" mode, not bpa. See Moritz Seider. And he's deathly patient with prospects.

He's taken the team to ground level to build what he wants.

Getting a high calibre goalie in the draft is literally winning the draft. It's worth the risk or you pay through the teeth to get what's available for a good goalie in the future.

But it's the Flames. We were willing to wait 5 yrs for Jankowski while Vasi was establishing himself as the league's top goalie.

 

It was an odd draft for us.  Feaster/JB decided they needed to sign a C to help out Iggy, years after.

Even if we hadn't traded down, I don't think we would have selected Vas.

They had set their signs on Gillies I assume.

 

I think this year we could see two goalies go top 15.

I seriously doubt Wallstedt is available at 12.

If he was, I would be hard pressed to pass.

Cossa likely is, but I have little interest considering the other talent available. 

I just don't buy into the hype on him.

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2 hours ago, conundrumed said:

Having said that td, I can't help but wonder when Yzerman will take Wallstedt. #6?

He has 5 picks in the top 51 so room to maneuver with someone around our pick, philly or Rangers.

My vote is to take Wallstedt. Or we could be watching a rerun of Vasilevsky.

My feeling is Yzerman is in, "what do we need" mode, not bpa. See Moritz Seider. And he's deathly patient with prospects.

He's taken the team to ground level to build what he wants.

Getting a high calibre goalie in the draft is literally winning the draft. It's worth the risk or you pay through the teeth to get what's available for a good goalie in the future.

But it's the Flames. We were willing to wait 5 yrs for Jankowski while Vasi was establishing himself as the league's top goalie.

 

THIS.

 

It's all about those ceilings.  High risk high reward is how you win cups.  Tampa went up to bat and swung in their first rounds.  Got a lot of duds and a lot of MVPs.    Won cups because of it.    Other teams consistently got players who "made the NHL".   This is a total waste of a first round pick.

When goalies of this calibre are available they are to be taken seriously.

 

I personally take Cossa and Wallstedt both seriously, I think the differences between them with what we know now are slight.   I also understand the interest in Coronato, Sillinger.   I just think we have such huge deficits in G and D, this draft has plenty of them at high calibre, and you can find talented forwards in literally any draft.    For me,  I would want one of:    Wallstedt, Brandt, Ceulemans, Cossa....in that order.    High ceilings, and hard positions to fill.

 

But.

 

If it were up to me we would have a boatload of picks in this first round.    Not enough teams realize the talent level available.

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35 minutes ago, travel_dude said:

 

I think this year we could see two goalies go top 15.

I seriously doubt Wallstedt is available at 12.

If he was, I would be hard pressed to pass.

Cossa likely is, but I have little interest considering the other talent available. 

I just don't buy into the hype on him.

 

I know Button says the top 8 are a lock.   I don't think he's right.  I'm expecting an upset.

 

You've been expressly comfortable at 12, with Sillinger, Mctavish, Coronato and others likely available.    While that's not my boat, I get it.  There's no denying the talent.    One might even argue there is as much or more talent at 12 than there is in the top 10.

 

So the forwards are all over.   Does Berniers have more upside than...say Kent Johnson, or Sillinger, or Coronato?   He's the more complete player but I can't say that he's the highest ceiling of that group.   Did I even mention this draft's most talented forward above?   I probably didn't.   Pretty good chance that's Chibrikov.   Who we've not even discussed yet.  Maybe your next Kucherov surprise pick.

 

The defencemen....same.   If we limit ourselves to RHS D, it's Brandt or Ceulemans.      Who's got the higher ceiling?    Very tough call they are both super high, but I would argue Ceulemans has the higher ceiling of the two, and obviously Brandt is a vastly safer pick (for what that's worth).

 

I am thinking Button's wrong before this draft even started by calling the top 8 a lock.   And it concerns me how simplistic it is to him.   I immediately lose trust in people who go to the press and talk about how sure they are over things totally out of their control.  

 

Back to your point, in any other year I would say "who's most likely to drop" and it would be the goalie (Wallstedt).   So I don't think we can rule that out.   But I also won't call it "likely" because, well,  Vassy with Tampa brings Wallstedt to the forefront.  Cossa too.    So I dunno.   But I do expect Someone to drop and I just hope Button's done his homework on whoever that is even though he's so sure it won't happen.

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2 minutes ago, jjgallow said:

 

I know Button says the top 8 are a lock.   I don't think he's right.  I'm expecting an upset.

 

You've been expressly comfortable at 12, with Sillinger, Mctavish, Coronato and others likely available.    While that's not my boat, I get it.  There's no denying the talent.    One might even argue there is as much or more talent at 12 than there is in the top 10.

 

So the forwards are all over.   Does Berniers have more upside than...say Kent Johnson, or Sillinger, or Coronato?   He's the more complete player but I can't say that he's the highest ceiling of that group.   Did I even mention this draft's most talented forward above?   I probably didn't.   Pretty good chance that's Chibrikov.   Who we've not even discussed yet.  Maybe your next Kucherov surprise pick.

 

The defencemen....same.   If we limit ourselves to RHS D, it's Brandt or Ceulemans.      Who's got the higher ceiling?    Very tough call they are both super high, but I would argue Ceulemans has the higher ceiling of the two, and obviously Brandt is a vastly safer pick (for what that's worth).

 

I am thinking Button's wrong before this draft even started by calling the top 8 a lock.   And it concerns me how simplistic it is to him.   I immediately lose trust in people who go to the press and talk about how sure they are over things totally out of their control.  

 

Back to your point, in any other year I would say "who's most likely to drop" and it would be the goalie (Wallstedt).   So I don't think we can rule that out.   But I also won't call it "likely" because, well,  Vassy with Tampa brings Wallstedt to the forefront.  Cossa too.    So I dunno.   But I do expect Someone to drop and I just hope Button's done his homework on whoever that is even though he's so sure it won't happen.

 

My belief is that the finals showed a lot of teams that goalies are a priority.  That's why I think Wallstedt is gone at 12.

I also think Cossa goes to a team like Dallas that loves big lugs.

I'm comfortable in getting a good player at 12, but not Cossa.

I'll get behind it, if they go that way, but I feel it's a reach at 12.

Trade down if you want to do that.

12-18 is still in that 2nd tier, with players due to drop.

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3 hours ago, conundrumed said:

Having said that td, I can't help but wonder when Yzerman will take Wallstedt. #6?

He has 5 picks in the top 51 so room to maneuver with someone around our pick, philly or Rangers.

My vote is to take Wallstedt. Or we could be watching a rerun of Vasilevsky.

My feeling is Yzerman is in, "what do we need" mode, not bpa. See Moritz Seider. And he's deathly patient with prospects.

He's taken the team to ground level to build what he wants.

Getting a high calibre goalie in the draft is literally winning the draft. It's worth the risk or you pay through the teeth to get what's available for a good goalie in the future.

But it's the Flames. We were willing to wait 5 yrs for Jankowski while Vasi was establishing himself as the league's top goalie.

Of course they took Slater Koekoek first, some pretty good players taken between that pick and the Vasi pick.  So obviously the genius valued someone above Vasi.  What I hate about the goalie discussion is it seems like it's narrowed to a few like Vasilevskiy, Fleury and Price.  For every Vasilevskiy there's Kari Lehtonen and Al Montoya, for every Carey Price there is  Jon Bernier or Jack Campbell, for every MA Fleury there is  Rick Dipietro or Pascal Leclaire.  But it seems so easy to pick the right one.

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6 minutes ago, sak22 said:

Of course they took Slater Koekoek first, some pretty good players taken between that pick and the Vasi pick.  So obviously the genius valued someone above Vasi.  What I hate about the goalie discussion is it seems like it's narrowed to a few like Vasilevskiy, Fleury and Price.  For every Vasilevskiy there's Kari Lehtonen and Al Montoya, for every Carey Price there is  Jon Bernier or Jack Campbell, for every MA Fleury there is  Rick Dipietro or Pascal Leclaire.  But it seems so easy to pick the right one.

Perhaps knowing Vasi would still be available. Spencer Knight was 13th oa 2 yrs ago and already looks like he'll be something. My only point is that goalies are ranked that high, there is a chance he'll be a bonafide #1 before long, in this day and age of scouting to death.

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1 hour ago, jjgallow said:

 

THIS.

 

It's all about those ceilings.  High risk high reward is how you win cups.  Tampa went up to bat and swung in their first rounds.  Got a lot of duds and a lot of MVPs.    Won cups because of it.    Other teams consistently got players who "made the NHL".   This is a total waste of a first round pick.

When goalies of this calibre are available they are to be taken seriously.

 

I personally take Cossa and Wallstedt both seriously, I think the differences between them with what we know now are slight.   I also understand the interest in Coronato, Sillinger.   I just think we have such huge deficits in G and D, this draft has plenty of them at high calibre, and you can find talented forwards in literally any draft.    For me,  I would want one of:    Wallstedt, Brandt, Ceulemans, Cossa....in that order.    High ceilings, and hard positions to fill.

 

But.

 

If it were up to me we would have a boatload of picks in this first round.    Not enough teams realize the talent level available.

I understand your propensity for Wallstedt and believe that there is no way he gets past Detroit. Stevie Y knows how to build perennial contenders and securing an elite goalie prospect is part of that process. I also recently read an article that Vancouver is considering trading their 1st (9OA) and Eriksson to Detroit in order to get out of his contract (not clear on the return, but not a lot). That would give Detroit another top 10 bullet allowing them to easily draft Wallstedt and another high end prospect.

I have also been very high on Brandt Clarke throughout this whole year, he would be my guy to target, however I don’t know that he is available to us at our pick, and as good as Ceulemans projects to be, I don’t think our scouts or management are confident enough in their jobs right now to take a reach like that. The player who I think could fall (based on scouting reports being all over the map) are McTavish, which would help us a lot in the coming years. I know you won’t like it because it goes against your philosophy of net out, it’s just the way I see things shaking down. Also look for someone to go after Samu Tuomaala, he plays with speed and his shot is lethal. His skill set suits the current NHL landscape very well.

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6 minutes ago, conundrumed said:

Perhaps knowing Vasi would still be available. Spencer Knight was 13th oa 2 yrs ago and already looks like he'll be something. My only point is that goalies are ranked that high, there is a chance he'll be a bonafide #1 before long, in this day and age of scouting to death.

You don't know a player would be there.  You can take a gamble on it, but it still shows that they were willing to gamble on Vasi and not Koekoek.  Always drives me nuts the thought of teams "knowing" a player would be there, you don't know what 29 to now 31 other teams are thinking.  

 

The thing with Vasilevskiy is as good as he is, how many teams is he taking to a cup.  My guess is less than 10.  If I look at Vasilevskiy this year, definitely deserving of the Smythe, but unlike others like Thomas in 2011 or Quick in 2012, I think Tampa had other players with pretty impressive playoffs Kucherov with 32 points is impressive, Hedman with 18 was impressive, Point with 14 goals whereas take Thomas out of Boston and there is no cup that year for them.  Those are all numbers that can win a Conn Smythe in a normal year.  Sure it'd be nice to have a yearly Vezina candidate, it would also be nice to have a Norris winner, Art Ross winner, and Richard winner and an elite center to boot

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53 minutes ago, conundrumed said:

Perhaps knowing Vasi would still be available. Spencer Knight was 13th oa 2 yrs ago and already looks like he'll be something. My only point is that goalies are ranked that high, there is a chance he'll be a bonafide #1 before long, in this day and age of scouting to death.

 

I do think that there is only one top ranked goalie in this draft that we be a starter.

Okay, so a better than 75% at being a starter.

Cossa reminds me of Koskinen.

Being a big man in a league with smaller players, chances are he may just be an average player on a good team.

Worth a 2nd?  Sure.

Our only pick in the 1st round?  Nope.

 

 

 

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28 minutes ago, sak22 said:

You don't know a player would be there.  You can take a gamble on it, but it still shows that they were willing to gamble on Vasi and not Koekoek.  Always drives me nuts the thought of teams "knowing" a player would be there, you don't know what 29 to now 31 other teams are thinking.  

 

The thing with Vasilevskiy is as good as he is, how many teams is he taking to a cup.  My guess is less than 10.  If I look at Vasilevskiy this year, definitely deserving of the Smythe, but unlike others like Thomas in 2011 or Quick in 2012, I think Tampa had other players with pretty impressive playoffs Kucherov with 32 points is impressive, Hedman with 18 was impressive, Point with 14 goals whereas take Thomas out of Boston and there is no cup that year for them.  Those are all numbers that can win a Conn Smythe in a normal year.  Sure it'd be nice to have a yearly Vezina candidate, it would also be nice to have a Norris winner, Art Ross winner, and Richard winner and an elite center to boot

I think this is how deals are made on the floor. I believe gms have an indication of who is taking who or why would anyone trade up or down?

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8 minutes ago, conundrumed said:

I think this is how deals are made on the floor. I believe gms have an indication of who is taking who or why would anyone trade up or down?

 

It also shows how utterly clueless feaster and JB were in that draft.

We have a 12th overall, but we like a guy that nobody has heard of.

Let's drop that pick to later so we can draft a nobody D-man in the 2nd.

And we'll get quality in the 3rd.

 

Yes, I believe you are right about deals on the floor.  An indication, but that's only the teams they talk to.

They tend to look at who has gone where and project who might select him ahead of you.

The team may disclose who they like and trades discussed, but others are radio silent.

But there is a bit of a wild card.

We tried to move up in the Tkachuk draft, either to get Tkachuk or Puljujarvi.

Neither EDM nor CBJ bit.

And we ended up with the player we wanted (Burkie said that) or missed out on the one we wanted (speculated by others).

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1 hour ago, conundrumed said:

I think this is how deals are made on the floor. I believe gms have an indication of who is taking who or why would anyone trade up or down?

I think you have hunches, but no way you know every teams Plan A, B or C.  I get how Vasilevskiy would be a nice addition, but I don't see how the situation changes here drastically we don't have a Norris caliber defenseman anymore, an Art Ross caliber forward, a #1 C or a future 500 goal scorerer (crazy to talk about the last 3 as 3 different players).  Also can't always look at 2012 with 2021 goggles, the biggest knock on drafting Vasilevskiy that high wasn't all position related, but a lot of question marks surrounding Russians at that time.  Tampa drafted 3 the year before while Calgary hadn't drafted one in 10 years, they drafted 6 in '01 and '02 with only 1 ever signing which only lasted one year, also weren't far removed from a first round pick refusing to sign here.  So I do think there are other factors on why the team wouldn't draft him at that time.

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One guy I have seen higher on some draft boards is Fyodor Svechkov. From what I can tell, he is an extremely smart player, who is always on the right side of the puck. His offensive totals haven't been great but it sounds like that is more of result of the team he was playing on. Might be a guy to keep an eye on.

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3 hours ago, travel_dude said:

 

I do think that there is only one top ranked goalie in this draft that we be a starter.

Okay, so a better than 75% at being a starter.

Cossa reminds me of Koskinen.

Being a big man in a league with smaller players, chances are he may just be an average player on a good team.

Worth a 2nd?  Sure.

Our only pick in the 1st round?  Nope.

 

Kind of a double edged sword though, by most measures he has already advanced past Dust Wolf, despite being two years younger.  Also I need to point out that you're penalizing a goalie for being big which is counter-intuitive when you think of translation to the NHL.

 

Anyway.   If Cossa's not all that, then, Wolf likely isn't either (Cossa two years ahead of him with size advantage) and we are in deep deep doodooo.  Basically if your assessment is correct, then we pretty much need to upgrade to get Wallstedt.

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3 hours ago, pikey7883 said:

I understand your propensity for Wallstedt and believe that there is no way he gets past Detroit. Stevie Y knows how to build perennial contenders and securing an elite goalie prospect is part of that process. I also recently read an article that Vancouver is considering trading their 1st (9OA) and Eriksson to Detroit in order to get out of his contract (not clear on the return, but not a lot). That would give Detroit another top 10 bullet allowing them to easily draft Wallstedt and another high end prospect.

I have also been very high on Brandt Clarke throughout this whole year, he would be my guy to target, however I don’t know that he is available to us at our pick, and as good as Ceulemans projects to be, I don’t think our scouts or management are confident enough in their jobs right now to take a reach like that. The player who I think could fall (based on scouting reports being all over the map) are McTavish, which would help us a lot in the coming years. I know you won’t like it because it goes against your philosophy of net out, it’s just the way I see things shaking down. Also look for someone to go after Samu Tuomaala, he plays with speed and his shot is lethal. His skill set suits the current NHL landscape very well.

 

there are some extremely talented, very poorly scouted Russians in this draft.   People assume a top goalie won't get past detroit but then they're not really known for letting Russians slip past them either.

 

I confess, with Vassy in the spotlight I'm not as sure about Wallstedt dropping, but I do feel there will be some big surprises and typically it is either defencemen or goalies who drop in such cases.    I understand why it appears we're lined up for a forward.   But I don't see it playing out like it looks like it will.

 

I'm also not saying you're wrong.   The Flames aren't likely to do themselves any favors.

 

If I were to guess, we will be given an opportunity to do something exceptional and we will miss that opportunity.  That's my best prediction.

 

p.s...don't get me wrong, we're not the worst.  Unless we somehow pick up Duncan Keith in all of this.

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14 minutes ago, jjgallow said:

 

Kind of a double edged sword though, by most measures he has already advanced past Dust Wolf, despite being two years younger.  Also I need to point out that you're penalizing a goalie for being big which is counter-intuitive when you think of translation to the NHL.

 

Anyway.   If Cossa's not all that, then, Wolf likely isn't either (Cossa two years ahead of him with size advantage) and we are in deep deep doodooo.  Basically if your assessment is correct, then we pretty much need to upgrade to get Wallstedt.

 

Projecting him to be a great goalie is one thing, but he has 61 games played in 3 seasons.

How is that further ahead than Wolf?

Wolf had 61 games in his 2nd season.

Of course, I forgot he is big.

Must be a winner.

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1 hour ago, travel_dude said:

 

Projecting him to be a great goalie is one thing, but he has 61 games played in 3 seasons.

How is that further ahead than Wolf?

Wolf had 61 games in his 2nd season.

Of course, I forgot he is big.

Must be a winner.

 

Um

 

Well I guess Sillinger's out then, only 31 games.    For sure a super great arguement in the middle of covid.

 

And you're right, size doesn't matter.

 

right?

 

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58 minutes ago, jjgallow said:

 

Um

 

Well I guess Sillinger's out then, only 31 games.    For sure a super great arguement in the middle of covid.

 

And you're right, size doesn't matter.

 

right?

 

 

Must have missed that goalie named Sillinger.

But, go on about how Cossa has surpassed Wolf already.

Surpassed in height?  Check.

Rest?  Nope.

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8 hours ago, pikey7883 said:

I understand your propensity for Wallstedt and believe that there is no way he gets past Detroit. Stevie Y knows how to build perennial contenders and securing an elite goalie prospect is part of that process. I also recently read an article that Vancouver is considering trading their 1st (9OA) and Eriksson to Detroit in order to get out of his contract (not clear on the return, but not a lot). That would give Detroit another top 10 bullet allowing them to easily draft Wallstedt and another high end prospect.

I have also been very high on Brandt Clarke throughout this whole year, he would be my guy to target, however I don’t know that he is available to us at our pick, and as good as Ceulemans projects to be, I don’t think our scouts or management are confident enough in their jobs right now to take a reach like that. The player who I think could fall (based on scouting reports being all over the map) are McTavish, which would help us a lot in the coming years. I know you won’t like it because it goes against your philosophy of net out, it’s just the way I see things shaking down. Also look for someone to go after Samu Tuomaala, he plays with speed and his shot is lethal. His skill set suits the current NHL landscape very well.

Detroit(Holland) traded their 16th(Chychrun) for Datsyuk's contract.

Straight across I believe.

Yes Datsyuk finished with the 'yotes, because Holland loves Cap he'll.

People are throwing genius around sarcastically re Yzerman.

We'll folks, only Seattle has more cap space than Detroit. He got a lousy cap hell team. 2 year purge, stay crappy, we have another expansion draft.

He had to rebuild, now no way Seattle becomes Vegas mach2.

It's pretty genius, I think.

By genius I mean by NHL GM standards.

The rest of us know it as, "practical".

 

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Oh, just for one upsmanship, Carty gave me my Yzerman game-worn jersey. lol

We met when I took him to a game just because, never met before.

But he gave me the jersey on my 3rd visit, I brought 420, whom we'd never met.

It was a blast.

If I were still in Calgary, I'd promote that a lot more, not sure what took me so long.

 

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58 minutes ago, conundrumed said:

Detroit(Holland) traded their 16th(Chychrun) for Datsyuk's contract.

Straight across I believe.

Yes Datsyuk finished with the 'yotes, because Holland loves Cap he'll.

People are throwing genius around sarcastically re Yzerman.

We'll folks, only Seattle has more cap space than Detroit. He got a lousy cap hell team. 2 year purge, stay crappy, we have another expansion draft.

He had to rebuild, now no way Seattle becomes Vegas mach2.

It's pretty genius, I think.

By genius I mean by NHL GM standards.

The rest of us know it as, "practical".

 

No, it was Datsyuks contract and #16 (Chychrun) for #20 (Cholowski) a 2nd rounder that year (Hronek) and Vitale.  Not one that should go as one of Hollands blunders even though Chychrun is the best of all picks there.

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2 hours ago, conundrumed said:

Oh, just for one upsmanship, Carty gave me my Yzerman game-worn jersey. lol

We met when I took him to a game just because, never met before.

But he gave me the jersey on my 3rd visit, I brought 420, whom we'd never met.

It was a blast.

If I were still in Calgary, I'd promote that a lot more, not sure what took me so long.

 


we should do that in Van. I met @Heartbreaker and play be some hockey with them on a team for a year, went to a Flames game too. Need more of that!

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14 hours ago, The_People1 said:

If we pass on Wallstedt or Kent Johnson, then I'm going to be pretty pissed.  Luckily, I'm sure we won't get the opportunity.

 

Kent Johnson is another guy way way way under-rated, yup.   There's a whole handful of em in that range that are, though.

 

Anyway, I actually do think we'll get that opportunity, or...something very similar.   And I think we're going to be pissed.

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