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Discussion & Debate Thread: Flames and Canucks


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#1 Hockey_Canada1

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Posted 22 September 2010 - 08:00 AM

shall we compare defensive cores now? :lol:

#2 Hockey_Canada1

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Posted 22 September 2010 - 08:00 AM

It's a good thing we are able to now negotiate from a position of strength. I hope to see Salo as the odd man out.

Let's say, for argument's sake he is.

Mitchell - Edler
Ehrhoff - Bieksa
Schneider - O'Brien
Lukowich

vs.

Bouwmeester - Regehr
Phanuef - Sarich
Giordano - Pardy
Pelech?

I think it's a case of top-end talent vs. balance all the way through.


#3 Hockey_Canada1

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Posted 22 September 2010 - 08:00 AM

Hockey_Canada1">


shall we compare defensive cores now? :lol:
For sure!

Ours is still the best in the league, and as an added bonus it doesn't bring us $3 million over the cap.

Still? When was it ever the best? Don't forget, hockey isn't played in July. :lol:



#4 Hockey_Canada1

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Posted 22 September 2010 - 08:00 AM

Hockey_Canada1">


Still? When was it ever the best?

When we signed Bouwmeester. Seems everyone outside Vancouver thinks the same thing. Maybe they should've asked some Canucks fans what they think first?

Like I said, hockey is not played in July. They haven't been the best because there is nothing to be the best of.



#5 Hockey_Canada1

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Posted 22 September 2010 - 08:00 AM

ren1 wrote:
Hockey_Canada1">

shall we compare defensive cores now? :lol:

For sure!

Ours is still the best in the league, and as an added bonus it doesn't bring us $3 million over the cap.

Exactly. Gillis hasn't been able to manage the cap efficiently, and look what he has.

An inconsistent defensemen who is way over-payed (O'Brien), another inconsistent defensemen who plays poorly in his own end (Ehrhoff, who was
-12 last season), two cripples who are bound to get injured (Schneider and Salo), a bunch of pylons (Rome and Nycholat), another player who
*gasp* plays poorly in his own end (Bieksa, who was -4 last season), an overrated shutdown defenseman (Mitchell, who according to Canucks fans
should be on Team Canada) and mabye two proven NHL defensemen (Lukowich and Edler).....
In other words Gillis has overspent on defense.

So now we're overpaying for our defense..... puhhleezze!
  

LOL. I can play the same game.

Overpaid, overrated = Bouwmeester, Phanuef., Regehr
pylon = Sarich, Pardy
inconsistent, can't play in his own end = Giordano

aren't I clever?

But let's analyze who can't manage the cap effectively. The GM who is over the cap in August and has over a month to sort it out with 9 NHL defencemen or a GM who's team is forced to play with 17 players in the most crucial point in the season because of cap issues.


#6 Hockey_Canada1

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Posted 22 September 2010 - 08:00 AM

Hockey_Canada1 wrote:
ren1 wrote:
Hockey_Canada1">


Still? When was it ever the best?

When we signed Bouwmeester. Seems everyone outside Vancouver thinks the same thing. Maybe they should've asked some Canucks fans what they think first?
Like I said, hockey is not played in July. They haven't been the best because there is nothing to be the best of.

Then why are you asking to compare D-cores? If you ask me to compare now, I (and most of the rest of the hockey world) will say that ours is still better. If you want to wait for the season, don't bring it up and imply that yours is now on par with ours. What am I missing here?

Am I not allowed to argue against your self-proclamation of best in the league?



#7 Hockey_Canada1

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Posted 22 September 2010 - 08:00 AM


Bouwmeester>Mitchell
Regehr>Edler
Phaneuf>Ehrhoff
Sarich=Bieksa
GiordanoPardy>O'Brien
Stralman>Lukowich

Your comparisons are way off.

why wouldn't you compare shut-downn vs. shut-down, ect...?

Bouwmeester vs. Edler
Phanuef vs. Bieksa
Regeher vs. Mitchell
Sarich vs. Ehrhoff
Giordanno vs. Schneider
Pardy vs. O'Brien
Stralman vs. Lukowich


in which case...

Bouwmeester >/= Edler
Phanuef > Bieksa
Regeher > Mitchell
Sarich < Ehrhoff
Giordanno < Schneider
Pardy < O'Brien
Stralman < Lukowich


#8 Hockey_Canada1

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Posted 22 September 2010 - 08:00 AM

Hockey_Canada1">


Am I not allowed to argue against your self-proclamation of best in the league?
Not if your argument is that the Canucks' D is better, no. Good luck finding anyone outside of BC who agrees with you, especially since it remains to be seen how Gillis plans to get back under the cap.

So I can only argue if my opinion is that the Flames are better. I see.



#9 Hockey_Canada1

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Posted 22 September 2010 - 08:00 AM


Oh wow. Am I really going to have to do this:

Regehr vs Mitchell:

Regehr(4.02M, 29 Years Old)[Drafted 19th Overall, 1999 by Colorado] = 666 Games; 25-104-129(750 shots on net) and is a +29 career with 669 Penalty Minutes. Sportsnet Career Potential: Defensive Stalwart. He is 3-12-15 with a +9 and 28 PIM in 41 Playoff Games.

Mitchell(3.5M, 32 Years Old)[Drafted 199th, 1996 by New Jersey] = 538 Games, 15-92-107(438 shots on net) and is a +69 career with 573 Penalty Minutes. Sportnset says: Shutdown D-Man. He is 1-6-7 in the playoffs with a +1 and 50 PIM in 45 Playoff Games.

Regehr Wins. 1-0 Flames

Bouwmeester vs Bieksa

Bouwmeester(6.68M, 25 Years Old)[Drafted 3rd overall, 2002 by Florida] = 471 Games; 53-150-203 and is -27 with 329 PIM. Sportsnet says: No.1 Defenseman. He has not playoff stats.

Bieksa(3.75M, 28 Years Old)[Drafted 151st Overall, 2001 by Vancouver] = 226 Games; 25-78-103 with a -15 and 398 PIM. Sportsnet says: Top 4 D-Man. He is 0-5-0 in the playoffs, with a +2 and 90 PIM in 27 Playoff Games.

Bouwmeester wins. 2-0 Flames

Phaneuf vs. Ehrhoff

Phaneuf(6.5M, 24 Years Old)[Drafted 9th Overall, 2003 by Calgary] = 323 Games; 65-141-206 with a +16 and 473 PIM. Sportsnet says: Top pairing defenseman with tremendous offensive acumen. He is 5-7-12 with a -12 and 22 PIM in 25 Playoff Games.

Ehrhoff(3.1M, 27 Years Old)[Drafted 106th Overall, 2001 by San Jose] = 341 Games; 25-107-132 with a +19 and 244 PIM. Sportsnet says: Top Four Defenseman. He is 2-13-15 with a +2 and 40 PIM in 38 Playoff Games.

Phaneuf Wins(o.o). 3-0 Flames.

Anything else?

Anything else? How about the rest of the defence?

Edler or Sarich?
Schneider or Giordano?
O'Brien or Pardy?
Lukowich of Stralman?

But you can't really compare player to player, because each team has a different philosphy on building a defensive core. Both of which are effective.

Here is how I see the Flames this year.  Offensively, what I like most is their bottom 6 additions in Dawes and Sjostrom, both have an outside chance of magically having a Bourque-like breakout season and really helping the offence. I have been watching Dawes specifically to see him break out and it just hasn't happened yet. What I don't like is how they are still missing one more top 6 forward to really be a dominant team. Having either Moss or Boyd in your top 6 is fine, having both is troubling. Backlund I don't see being effective in a top 6 role right away (similar situation as Hodgson). You know what Iginla, Jokinen and Langkow will give you. Bouque is a bit of a question mark. Will he take another step forward, have a similar season or step back? I expect similar, but who knows?

Defensively, they have a top 3 as good or better than anyone in the league. HOWEVER, defensive depth cannot be underrated. The grind of the season can wear on the big 3 playing a ton of minutes, and it showed a bit last season. Can Giordano or Pardy handle 20 minutes a night? I don't know. Sarich ain't no spring chicken, and he is going to have to start showing his age sooner or later. I saw more of it last year than I did in the past from him. And there is always a small chance of the big name player moving to a new team and a new system and not succeeding right away.

Kipper is Kipper. He will be solid most of the time, with the occasional stinker. You pretty much know what you are getting out of him, and with the right team it can be enough to win.

Now the Canucks situation is actually very similar. Offensively, you have the 3 guys who you know what you are getting with them. Kesler could take another step forward, have a similar season or take a small step back. I am hoping for the former, but expecting a similar season. I too see one more top 6 forward needed for this team to be considered elite. Having Samulesson or Burrows in your top 6 is fine, having both in your top 6 could be troubling. The advantage here is that I think Hodgson has a higher likelihood of stepping up into a top 6 role next season, but the good thing is if he doesn't, he can still be effective on line #3.

Defensively, we have essentially 5 top 4 defensemen. We don't have that legit #1 Norris candidate. But depth throughout the entire line-up instead. We don't have to depend on that one guy to be your !3 guy in every situation, but a ton of guys that can play roles and play them well. Our Powerplay should be vastly improved over last year, considering one of Schnieder, Salo, Ehrhoff, Edler or Bieksa won't even make the 2nd unit. There are 3 cannons from the point, as well as Schneider's experience and vision on the back end. I am excited to see the combinations we would see with the advantage.

Luongo is Luongo. You know what you get with him. A Vezina calibre goalie that can steal a game at any time. Criticisms of not being able to step up when needed most are overblown. Especially compared to every top level goalie that has had similar moments/games/runs/whatever.



#10 Hockey_Canada1

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Posted 22 September 2010 - 08:00 AM


This one is laughable. The are both consdiered offensive defencemen so stats should be a good comparison here.One had 32 points in 67 games as well as 17 in 23 when traded to a playoff contender, immediately improving said team's PP drastically while playing almost 21 minutes per game. The other had 19 points in 58 games while just 16 minutes a game. And to use your arguemtn for Sarich, one has more experience, more developed and a stanley cup ring.

O'Brien > Pardy. Yes.

Stralman likely will be a better player, key word is "will be". Right now, Lukowich is more reliable in a bottom pairing role. Therefore he wins this matchup.

cinlow wrote:
Sarich is aging? Really? If you put Sarich onto the Canuck's team he isactually right in the middle of the pack age wise and in the middle ofwhat most hockey analysts would consider his "prime" years (28-34).Sarich is younger than Mitchel and very comparable in skill andability. Considering most people thought Sarich was playingexceptionally I doubt you saw him showing anything other than thatunless you were watching through some blue coloured glasses.

Wow, I though he was older than he is. But be that as it may, I saw something out of his last season that I hadn't seen before. A lingering injury maybe? Mitchell is twice the shutdown defenceman Sarich is and ever will be.
cinlow">


I would say that Defensively the Canucks basically have 5 'secondpairing defensemen' and no true top pairing caliber D on the team.Also, it is unrealistic to expect to keep that group as is since youare over the salary cap. One way or another your depth is going to haveto be diminished.

By one. Take out any one defenceman out of the Canucks core right now, and it the depth advantage still stands.





#11 Hockey_Canada1

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Posted 22 September 2010 - 08:00 AM

TheAce wrote:
Zirakzigil">


I really dont see how you can compare the Flames and Canucks defense. In a 60 minute game you are going to see Bouwmeester out there for 25-30min a game and Regehr out there for 20-30min a game. This means that you will have a star defenseman out there for almost the entire game. The Canucks do not have a defenseman to match what either one of them brings to the game. Then you add Phaneuf who has the ability to be a factor on the ice as well. Yes the Canucks have more depth and in the event of injuries have similar skill set players with the ability to step up, but they do not have a defenseman who can go out and set the tone on what is going to happen on the ice, the Flames have 2 and sometimes 3 defensemen that can do that. The Flames top 4 is better then the Canucks top 4. You are going to see the Flames top 4 on the ice for 50+ minutes a game. The bottom 2 defensemen are going to see limited minutes which will pretty much negate the fact that the Canucks have a better bottom 2.
You go on to say that Vancouver doesnt have a D-man that can match either of those players. Atleast a few honest flame fans have admitted that ever since Mitchell started playing against Iginla, he has been shut down pretty nicely. I dont think you can say the same about Regehr with the Sedins. In fact im not sure if there is a team that the Sedins play better against than Calgary. And before you say that there are 2 of them so how can Regehr shut 2 players down, isnt the critizism that the Sedins cant play without each other? So if Regehr was able to shut one of them down, then the other should be useless without him.


Ive admitted before that Bouwmeester is a very good player. I think someone would be foolish to say otherwise, but at the same time I dont think he is a Lidstrom/Chara type player. He averages 40 points a year and is a career minus player. I believe he is better defensively that his stats would say but I wouldnt say he dominant. I think most canuck fans underestimate him whether it be out of bitterness that we never signed him or that he signed with our biggest rival but I think Calgary fans overestimate what he will bring to your team much like when you got Jokinen, Tanguay, Amonte.

Iginla had 6 points in 6 games against the Canucks last season, which is just as good or better than either of the Sedin's when playing against Regehr. Either way, the only people who think Mitchell is on the same level as Regehr are Canuck fans, Mitchell didn't get an invitation to the Olympic camp whereas guys like Regehr, Hamhuis, and Seabrook did. All of whom I would consider better than Mitchell as of right now.

As for what Bouwmeester will bring is a solid addition to our blueline right away, and he has the potential to be a Norris winning d-man in the next few years. Most defensemen don't become dominant until a bit later in their careers.

Against the Flames last year, Daniel had 8 points and Henrik had 6.



#12 Hockey_Canada1

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Posted 22 September 2010 - 08:00 AM

Hockey_Canada1 wrote:
Hiphopopotamus wrote:
TheAce wrote:
Zirakzigil">


I really dont see how you can compare the Flames and Canucks defense. In a 60 minute game you are going to see Bouwmeester out there for 25-30min a game and Regehr out there for 20-30min a game. This means that you will have a star defenseman out there for almost the entire game. The Canucks do not have a defenseman to match what either one of them brings to the game. Then you add Phaneuf who has the ability to be a factor on the ice as well. Yes the Canucks have more depth and in the event of injuries have similar skill set players with the ability to step up, but they do not have a defenseman who can go out and set the tone on what is going to happen on the ice, the Flames have 2 and sometimes 3 defensemen that can do that. The Flames top 4 is better then the Canucks top 4. You are going to see the Flames top 4 on the ice for 50+ minutes a game. The bottom 2 defensemen are going to see limited minutes which will pretty much negate the fact that the Canucks have a better bottom 2.
You go on to say that Vancouver doesnt have a D-man that can match either of those players. Atleast a few honest flame fans have admitted that ever since Mitchell started playing against Iginla, he has been shut down pretty nicely. I dont think you can say the same about Regehr with the Sedins. In fact im not sure if there is a team that the Sedins play better against than Calgary. And before you say that there are 2 of them so how can Regehr shut 2 players down, isnt the critizism that the Sedins cant play without each other? So if Regehr was able to shut one of them down, then the other should be useless without him.


Ive admitted before that Bouwmeester is a very good player. I think someone would be foolish to say otherwise, but at the same time I dont think he is a Lidstrom/Chara type player. He averages 40 points a year and is a career minus player. I believe he is better defensively that his stats would say but I wouldnt say he dominant. I think most canuck fans underestimate him whether it be out of bitterness that we never signed him or that he signed with our biggest rival but I think Calgary fans overestimate what he will bring to your team much like when you got Jokinen, Tanguay, Amonte.

Iginla had 6 points in 6 games against the Canucks last season, which is just as good or better than either of the Sedin's when playing against Regehr. Either way, the only people who think Mitchell is on the same level as Regehr are Canuck fans, Mitchell didn't get an invitation to the Olympic camp whereas guys like Regehr, Hamhuis, and Seabrook did. All of whom I would consider better than Mitchell as of right now.

As for what Bouwmeester will bring is a solid addition to our blueline right away, and he has the potential to be a Norris winning d-man in the next few years. Most defensemen don't become dominant until a bit later in their careers.

Against the Flames last year, Daniel had 8 points and Henrik had 6.

Against the Flames yes, not against Regehr. He missed two games against the Canucks.

Did he play the first two games? Because they had 5 and 4 points in those two games.



#13 Hockey_Canada1

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Posted 22 September 2010 - 08:00 AM

Hockey_Canada1 wrote:
Hiphopopotamus wrote:
TheAce wrote:
Zirakzigil">


I really dont see how you can compare the Flames and Canucks defense. In a 60 minute game you are going to see Bouwmeester out there for 25-30min a game and Regehr out there for 20-30min a game. This means that you will have a star defenseman out there for almost the entire game. The Canucks do not have a defenseman to match what either one of them brings to the game. Then you add Phaneuf who has the ability to be a factor on the ice as well. Yes the Canucks have more depth and in the event of injuries have similar skill set players with the ability to step up, but they do not have a defenseman who can go out and set the tone on what is going to happen on the ice, the Flames have 2 and sometimes 3 defensemen that can do that. The Flames top 4 is better then the Canucks top 4. You are going to see the Flames top 4 on the ice for 50+ minutes a game. The bottom 2 defensemen are going to see limited minutes which will pretty much negate the fact that the Canucks have a better bottom 2.
You go on to say that Vancouver doesnt have a D-man that can match either of those players. Atleast a few honest flame fans have admitted that ever since Mitchell started playing against Iginla, he has been shut down pretty nicely. I dont think you can say the same about Regehr with the Sedins. In fact im not sure if there is a team that the Sedins play better against than Calgary. And before you say that there are 2 of them so how can Regehr shut 2 players down, isnt the critizism that the Sedins cant play without each other? So if Regehr was able to shut one of them down, then the other should be useless without him.


Ive admitted before that Bouwmeester is a very good player. I think someone would be foolish to say otherwise, but at the same time I dont think he is a Lidstrom/Chara type player. He averages 40 points a year and is a career minus player. I believe he is better defensively that his stats would say but I wouldnt say he dominant. I think most canuck fans underestimate him whether it be out of bitterness that we never signed him or that he signed with our biggest rival but I think Calgary fans overestimate what he will bring to your team much like when you got Jokinen, Tanguay, Amonte.

Iginla had 6 points in 6 games against the Canucks last season, which is just as good or better than either of the Sedin's when playing against Regehr. Either way, the only people who think Mitchell is on the same level as Regehr are Canuck fans, Mitchell didn't get an invitation to the Olympic camp whereas guys like Regehr, Hamhuis, and Seabrook did. All of whom I would consider better than Mitchell as of right now.

As for what Bouwmeester will bring is a solid addition to our blueline right away, and he has the potential to be a Norris winning d-man in the next few years. Most defensemen don't become dominant until a bit later in their careers.

Against the Flames last year, Daniel had 8 points and Henrik had 6.

Against the Flames yes, not against Regehr. He missed two games against the Canucks.

Did he play the first two games of the season? Sedins had 5 and 4 points in those 2 games.



#14 Hockey_Canada1

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Posted 22 September 2010 - 08:00 AM

Barney_Gumble wrote:
small_member">

Flames top 6 of Bouwmeester, Phaneuf, Regehr, Giordano, Moss and Pardy combined for 175 points last season.



This.

Aucoin & Vandermeer are also missing, but those are minor details...

Don't forget about Sarich. Also doesn't account for the fact that Giordano missed the final 25 games or so because of a shoulder injury, not to mention that Bouwmeester wasn't on the Flames roster so including his point totals in Florida is totally irrelevant...
  

I think the poster meant Sarich when they said Moss.



#15 Hockey_Canada1

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Posted 22 September 2010 - 08:00 AM

TheAce wrote:
Codes">


Wow.  I'm literally blown away by peoples' inability to acknowledge that the Flames' defensive system was crap, which is very apparent if you look at team stats, and individual players' defensive statistics.

With Sutter at the helm, I fully anticipate that the Flames will have better defensive stats than the Canucks right across the board.
Not sure if this was directed at me but my whole point is that Mitchell is not that far out of Regehr's league as some have suggested.  I only bring up stats to show that im not making stuff up and there is some proof to what Im saying.


There is no accurate stat that will tell the full story of how good a shutdown defensemen is, you just have to watch them play and make a decision for yourself.

The only other pure shutdown defender I would say is on Regehr's level is Paul Martin of the Devils, two guys I think could very likely pass him within the next 5 years are Seabrook and Staal. I'm not even sure I would consider Mitchell top 5 right now, Canuck fans are really the only ones who think so highly of him. He's good not great.

By watching and analyzing, Mitchell is in the top tier of shutdown defencemen in the league. Deny it all you want, but it is true. And there are stats that can help to analyze it as well. Look at all the top scorers each guy has played against, and look at their average scoring vs. scoring while that defenceman is on the ice. It would be a long a tedious task that I am not going to pursue, but you can find stats to prove anything if you look hard enough..

And no, Canucks are not the only ones that believe in Mitchell.

A Stars fan from a few years ago:
"But ofcourse, the main assest we landed is Willie Mitchell. Just whenyou think our defense has enough underrated defensemen as it is, weadded another one. Mitchell is the Wild leader on the blueline, he's aprime shutdown defenseman who's shown to have controlled players likeForsberg and Naslund during the Wilds run in 2003, of which he was acrucial part of.

He's one of the better shutdown defensemen in the game, is a leader,consistent and steps his game up in the playoffs. He instantly becomesour #3 defenseman, and quite easily our best defensively. He and Klemmwould form a great shutdown duo, though they'll probably play with apuckmover both."

also, your very own giving him props: http://forum.calgary...ead.php?t=70977





#16 Hockey_Canada1

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Posted 22 September 2010 - 08:00 AM


I'll say it again, good not great. He isn't top 5.

top 6?



#17 Hockey_Canada1

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Posted 22 September 2010 - 08:00 AM


Anyway, I would never do a sig bet with you, because I'd sooner kill myself than have a Canucks sig on my account_2.

Not very confident, eh?



#18 Hockey_Canada1

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Posted 22 September 2010 - 08:00 AM

Hockey_Canada1 wrote:
Codes">


Anyway, I would never do a sig bet with you, because I'd sooner kill myself than have a Canucks sig on my account_2.

Not very confident, eh?

I stand by my prediction - I just like having complete control over my signature. 

Think about it, you could have control over not just yours, but DL's as well!



#19 Hockey_Canada1

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Posted 22 September 2010 - 08:00 AM

Codes">



And if you think that B. Sutter is going to coach anything like Keenan, then...I don't know what to say.


Aucoin is an elite Pker... Aucoin is the greatest PK asset the Flames have... and now Sutter is gonna coach like Keenan... jeez.

So much for having a logical conversation...
anything other opinion people which to credit me with....

Iginla winning the Selke was your idea, wasn't it.



#20 Hockey_Canada1

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Posted 22 September 2010 - 08:00 AM


But in all honesty, if Mitchell was so similar in skill to Regehr, then you wouldn't be seeing such disparity between the two in the eyes of hockey experts.

What is this great disparity? Where does that come from? Who's to say that Mitchell wasn't the next guy on the list for experienced shutdown defencemen?

And I don't buy that Marc Staal and Brent Seabrook were selected because they are better options, but rather give them a little camp experience for future olympics (if NHL players are included).

Anyways, I don't see any experts expressing a great disperity between Regehr and Mitchell. I concede that Regehr has a slight edge, but they are in the same league.






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