Hockey_Canada1

Discussion & Debate Thread: Flames and Canucks

4,404 posts in this topic

I think flames fans have always been chirping about how great Kipper is but his stats dont reflect is becuase of the teams piss poor defence. So next season when we have argueable the most stacked D in the league and a defensive oriented coach, it's time for kipper to prove us all right.

Well last time Kipper had good defense infront of him he won the Vezina.

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[quote name='Hiphopopotamus wrote:


TheAce wrote:

Codes']Wow.  I'm literally blown away by peoples' inability to acknowledge that the Flames' defensive system was
crap,
which is very apparent if you look at team stats, and individual players' defensive statistics.

With Sutter at the helm, I fully anticipate that the Flames will have better defensive stats than the Canucks right across the board.

Not sure if this was directed at me but my whole point is that Mitchell is not that far out of Regehr's league as some have suggested.  I only bring up stats to show that im not making stuff up and there is some proof to what Im saying.

There is no accurate stat that will tell the full story of how good a shutdown defensemen is, you just have to watch them play and make a decision for yourself.

The only other pure shutdown defender I would say is on Regehr's level is Paul Martin of the Devils, two guys I think could very likely pass him within the next 5 years are Seabrook and Staal. I'm not even sure I would consider Mitchell top 5 right now, Canuck fans are really the only ones who think so highly of him. He's good not great.
By watching and analyzing, Mitchell is in the top tier of shutdown defencemen in the league. Deny it all you want, but it is true. And there are stats that can help to analyze it as well. Look at all the top scorers each guy has played against, and look at their average scoring vs. scoring while that defenceman is on the ice. It would be a long a tedious task that I am not going to pursue, but you can find stats to prove anything if you look hard enough..

And no, Canucks are not the only ones that believe in Mitchell.

A Stars fan from a few years ago:

"But ofcourse, the main assest we landed is Willie Mitchell. Just whenyou think our defense has enough underrated defensemen as it is, weadded another one. Mitchell is the Wild leader on the blueline, he's aprime shutdown defenseman who's shown to have controlled players likeForsberg and Naslund during the Wilds run in 2003, of which he was acrucial part of.

He's one of the better shutdown defensemen in the game, is a leader,consistent and steps his game up in the playoffs. He instantly becomesour #3 defenseman, and quite easily our best defensively. He and Klemmwould form a great shutdown duo, though they'll probably play with apuckmover both."

also, your very own giving him props: http://forum.calgarypuck.com/showthread.php?t=70977

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Anyway, I would never do a sig bet with you, because I'd sooner kill myself than have a Canucks sig on my account_2.

roll.gif
Not very confident, eh?

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[quote name='Codes wrote:


Hockey_Canada1 wrote:

Codes']
Anyway, I would never do a sig bet with you, because I'd sooner kill myself than have a Canucks sig on my account_2.

roll.gif

Not very confident, eh?

I stand by my prediction - I just like having complete control over my signature. Think about it, you could have control over not just yours, but DL's as well!

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[quote name='DL44 wrote:


Codes']

And if you think that B. Sutter is going to coach anything like Keenan, then...I don't know what to say.

Aucoin is an elite Pker... Aucoin is the greatest PK asset the Flames have... and now Sutter is gonna coach like Keenan... jeez.

So much for having a logical conversation...
anything other opinion people which to credit me with....

Iginla winning the Selke was your idea, wasn't it.

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But in all honesty, if Mitchell was so similar in skill to Regehr, then you wouldn't be seeing such disparity between the two in the eyes of hockey experts.
What is this great disparity? Where does that come from? Who's to say that Mitchell wasn't the next guy on the list for experienced shutdown defencemen?

And I don't buy that Marc Staal and Brent Seabrook were selected because they are better options, but rather give them a little camp experience for future olympics (if NHL players are included).

Anyways, I don't see any experts expressing a great disperity between Regehr and Mitchell. I concede that Regehr has a slight edge, but they are in the same league.

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^ The sad part is how they all say that Regehr's past his prime and has lost a step over Mitchell(even though, you know, Regehr's 28 and Mitchell's 3 years older...and Regehr has better career stats and all).

And the Canucks Board makes me laugh xD.

"OURDEFENSE CAN RACK UP 40 POINTS EACH, LOLOLOLOLOLOL."

"LUNGO IS BETTUR DEN KIPPUR!!11"

"C'mon guys, stop being homers".

"WE'LL SMOKE THEM LOLOLOLOLOLOL"

... I guess we'll have to see October 1st.

To be fair, we do have 5 defencemen that can reach 40 points.

Ehrhoff - 42 points last season

Bieksa - 43 last season, 42 in first full season.

Edler - 37 points last year in 2nd season

Salo - 3 times has averaged over .5ppg (82 games = 40+ points). Problem he has never played a full season.

Schneider - has done it 8 times.

Problem is, there isn't enough puck to go around, so someone's numbers are going to have to drop. My guess is Bieksa loses PP time and Salo misses a lot of injury time.

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I'm kind of getting sick of the Salo injury speculation. It isn't like the guy is physically unable to have a healthy season. If Connolly can do it, he can.

HF Northwest Poll (Canucks winning OMG!!)

http://hfboards.com/showthread.php?t=676384&page=7

He hasn't had an injury free season in 10. He played 75 games once, 70 games twice.

He is simply unable to last the grind of an 82 game season. If he were only 3 or 4 seasons into his career, I wouldn;t be so quick to say so. But it's been the same story for 10 years. He won't become more durable as he ages.

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Possession = offense and defense.  the flame's system for the coming season will be based largely on puck possession, and players like Iginla and Jokinen love to shoot, and are both proven playmakers (kinda like the Sedin Twins... except they don't have any proven chemistry) Iggy and Olli did have chemistry, though they hit a cold streak at the same time.  You just had to watch the two of them work the puck around in the opposing zone in one of the few games they both played well, to know this

DL44, you are a Canucks fan, am i right in assuming this? What do you mean "lack of a threatening second line"? Bourque Langkow Moss/Dawes/Lundmark is far more threatening than any of the Canuck's lines (except the first one of course) To top it off, the third line (Boyd Conroy Dawes/Moss) is very underrated IMO

Obviously, i have Glencross on the top line, and as i have said numerous times, his speed opens the ice for the relatively slower Iginla and Jokinen. I see no glaring problems in the flames line up, though this is, of course, on paper.

Chemistry isn't something that can be proven in a few games. Who's to say they weren't just hot at the same time. I not saying they do or they don't, but they have yet to prove either. I am skeptical because often when you have two shooters on the same line without a designated playmaker you run into some problems. I would actually say they are the opposite of the Sedins. Iginla/Jokinen are both shooters who can pass, while both Sedins are playmakers who can score.

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I honestly don't see much of a comparison. Hodgson is a far more complete player, is a natural leader, extremely mature beyond his years, extremely cerebral and has dominated any level he has played at.

Not that I am taking anything away from Backlund. He should be a bright part of Calagry's future for years to come. But they are simply different players. It's like comparing Martin Havlat to Mike Richards.

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this will be a breakdown of the two teams to see who has the edge in each catagory.  any input is appreciated. Also, if something i say is wrong, correct me (and by this, i mean stats not opinions--though i may adjust opinions based on ilumination on a few stats.  I really would like more insight on the Canucks prospects, for example.)

GOALTENDING:

Luongo and Kiprusoff are both widely considered to be in the upper echelon of the league's elite goaltenders.  Though postseason success has been elusive of late, Kiprusoff has led his team to the stanley cup final once, and then to the post season every year since (five consecutive seasons, four consecutive first round exits) while Luongo has led the canucks to the post season in two out of three seasons with the team, both times making it past the first round.  Both goalies have numerous Vezina Trophy nominations, though Kiprusoff has won the award once. Luongo's regular season stats have been far more consitent than Kiprusoff's, regularly finishing in the top five in sv% and GAA (the only exception being the 07-08 season, where the 'Nucks missed the postseason) While Kiprusoff has seen three seasons in decline (though the last one was an improvement).  The Canucks possess proven backups in Andrew Raycroft and Cory Schneider, while Curtis McElhinney may need to prove he can handle the grind of a full season (though he certainly won't play all that many games).

EDGE: Canucks

Defence:

The Canucks personel include shut-down dmen Willie Mitchel, and Alex Edler, offensive stars Christian Ehrhoff, Kevin Bieksa, and Mattieu Schneider, the mega-howitzer Sami Salo, and depth dmen Aaron Rome, Shane O'Brien, and Brad Lukowich

The Flames boast an impressive array of stars in Dion Phaneuf, Jay Bouwmeester, and Robyn Regehr, the three of them possessing three different styles ranging from flashy offensive gem, to offensively stunted shut-down machine, and everything between (J-Bo).  The lower group consists of defensive minded (and the oldest/most experienced one) Cory Sarich, the stay-at-home Adam Pardy, offensive Mark Giordano, and the more depth oriented Anton Stralman, Matt Pelech, and Staffan Kronwall.

The top three alone of the Flames are enough to put this one in the bag, as anyone who checks out the individual matchups will agree (Regehr vs Mitchel, Phaneuf vs Ehrhoff, Bouwmeester vs Edler)

EDGE: Flames

Offence:

The Canucks go as far as the Sedin twins can carry them.  their deadly cycle game, pinpoint passing and scarily accurate wrist shots can result in prolific goal scoring.  The two not only have chemistry with each other, but also possess a repore with at least one of the team's right wingers (Burrows) and will likely carry this chemistry to fellow Swede Mikael Samuelsson.

The Flames possess proven 30 goalscorers in Jarome Iginla, Olli Jokinen, and Daymond Langkow, and two other players who could possibly break that barrier in Rene Bourque (who would have if not for missing 24 games due to a freak injury. He was 9 goals short.) and David Moss.  Iginla and Jokinen also represent the only 90 point players on either team (though Demitra did come close one year, and Daniel Sedin could possibly do it, if the stars align in just the right way--Perhaps Henrik if he could just score more goals.) Though there is no proven chemistry between Iginla and Jokinen (flames fans take solace in that it was much the same situation with Cammalleri) there is proven tandems elsewhere in the roster--Bourque, Langkow, Moss for instance-- and there were flashes of brilliance from Iginla and Jokinen--especially when combined with Curtis Glencross on the left wing. The only proven 30-goal man in the 'Nucks roster is Daniel Sedin (Demitra has done it too, but not in the last 5 seasons--and he's 34, besides)

EDGE: Flames

Prospects:

Comparing the top forward prospects for each team (Vancouver's Cody Hodgeson and Jordan Schroeder against Calgary's Mikael Backlund and Greg Nemisz) we see far more size on the flames side.  Hodgeson perhaps possesses more of the leadership skills that are in such demand these days (a future captain, perhaps?). Schroeder and Hodgeson both put up proliffic numbers in the WJC, though they played for stacked Canadian and American teams.  Greg Nemisz had a great season with the Windsor Spitfires of the ohl, Scoring 34 goals and 77 points in the regular season, and 20 points in 20 playoff games.  Mikael Backlund put up fantastic numbers with the Kelowna Rockets, scoring 12 goals and 18 assissts in 28 games in the whl, and putting up 13 goals and 10 assissts in 19 post season games, helping the Rockets win the league crown (interestingly, they lost the Memorial cup to Nemisz and the Spitfires) There is more youth on the Vancouver side, and the most nhl ready of these players is probably Hodgeson (this based on hear-say and conjecture).  Still, looking at the stock of defenders the Flames have piled up: Keith Aulie, T.J. Brodie, Keith Seabrook, Brett Palin, John Negrin, Tim Erixon, Brad Cole, and Gord Baldwin, i have to give it to the masters.

EDGE: Flames

THE SCORE: 3-1 for the FLAMES!!

GO FLAMES GO!!

3-1 for the Flames? More like 3-1 for the Canucks. In the offensivecategory, it seems like it's close, but I'd give the Canucks the slightedge. In the prospects category, it seems like you don't know muchabout the Canucks' prospects so let me educate you a bit. Sure, we don't have as many quality defensive prospects as you guys, but the Canucks' offensive prospectshave a higher ceiling/potential than your offensive prospects, and I believe Cory Schneider is still part of the organization, so the edge in goaltendingprospects go to the Canucks. So overall the edge in prospects goes tothe Canucks.

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[quote name='hurtin_albertan wrote:


Barney_Gumble wrote:

small_member']Flames top 6 of Bouwmeester, Phaneuf, Regehr, Giordano,
Moss
and Pardy combined for 175 points last season.

This.

Aucoin & Vandermeer are also missing, but those are minor details...

Don't forget about Sarich. Also doesn't account for the fact that Giordano missed the final 25 games or so because of a shoulder injury, not to mention that Bouwmeester wasn't on the Flames roster so including his point totals in Florida is totally irrelevant...

  I think the poster meant Sarich when they said Moss.

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[quote name='Hiphopopotamus wrote:


Hockey_Canada1 wrote:

Hiphopopotamus wrote:

TheAce wrote:

Zirakzigil']I really dont see how you can compare the Flames and Canucks defense.
In a 60 minute game you are going to see Bouwmeester out there for 25-30min a game and Regehr out there for 20-30min a game.
This means that you will have a star defenseman out there for almost the entire game. 
The Canucks do not have a defenseman to match what either one of them brings to the game
. Then you add Phaneuf who has the ability to be a factor on the ice as well. Yes the Canucks have more depth and in the event of injuries have similar skill set players with the ability to step up, but they do not have a defenseman who can go out and set the tone on what is going to happen on the ice, the Flames have 2 and sometimes 3 defensemen that can do that. The Flames top 4 is better then the Canucks top 4. You are going to see the Flames top 4 on the ice for 50+ minutes a game. The bottom 2 defensemen are going to see limited minutes which will pretty much negate the fact that the Canucks have a better bottom 2.

You go on to say that Vancouver doesnt have a D-man that can match either of those players. Atleast a few honest flame fans have admitted that ever since Mitchell started playing against Iginla, he has been shut down pretty nicely. I dont think you can say the same about Regehr with the Sedins. In fact im not sure if there is a team that the Sedins play better against than Calgary. And before you say that there are 2 of them so how can Regehr shut 2 players down, isnt the critizism that the Sedins cant play without each other? So if Regehr was able to shut one of them down, then the other should be useless without him.

Ive admitted before that Bouwmeester is a very good player. I think someone would be foolish to say otherwise, but at the same time I dont think he is a Lidstrom/Chara type player. He averages 40 points a year and is a career minus player. I believe he is better defensively that his stats would say but I wouldnt say he dominant. I think most canuck fans underestimate him whether it be out of bitterness that we never signed him or that he signed with our biggest rival but I think Calgary fans overestimate what he will bring to your team much like when you got Jokinen, Tanguay, Amonte.

Iginla had 6 points in 6 games against the Canucks last season, which is just as good or better than either of the Sedin's when playing against Regehr. Either way, the only people who think Mitchell is on the same level as Regehr are Canuck fans, Mitchell didn't get an invitation to the Olympic camp whereas guys like Regehr, Hamhuis, and Seabrook did. All of whom I would consider better than Mitchell as of right now.

As for what Bouwmeester will bring is a solid addition to our blueline right away, and he has the potential to be a Norris winning d-man in the next few years. Most defensemen don't become dominant until a bit later in their careers.

Against the Flames last year, Daniel had 8 points and Henrik had 6.

Against the Flames yes, not against Regehr. He missed two games against the Canucks.Did he play the first two games of the season? Sedins had 5 and 4 points in those 2 games.

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It's a good thing we are able to now negotiate from a position of strength. I hope to see Salo as the odd man out.

Let's say, for argument's sake he is.

Mitchell - Edler

Ehrhoff - Bieksa

Schneider - O'Brien

Lukowich

vs.

Bouwmeester - Regehr

Phanuef - Sarich

Giordano - Pardy

Pelech?

I think it's a case of top-end talent vs. balance all the way through.

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[quote name='ren1 wrote:


Hockey_Canada1']shall we compare defensive cores now?
:lol:

For sure!

Ours is still the best in the league, and as an added bonus it doesn't bring us $3 million over the cap.

Still? When was it ever the best? Don't forget, hockey isn't played in July. :lol:

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[quote name='ren1 wrote:


Hockey_Canada1']Still? When was it ever the best?

When we signed Bouwmeester. Seems everyone outside Vancouver thinks the same thing. Maybe they should've asked some Canucks fans what they think first?

Like I said, hockey is not played in July. They haven't been the best because there is nothing to be the best of.

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[quote name='littlereddevil wrote:


ren1 wrote:

Hockey_Canada1']shall we compare defensive cores now?
:lol:

For sure!

Ours is still the best in the league, and as an added bonus it doesn't bring us $3 million over the cap.

Exactly. Gillis hasn't been able to manage the cap efficiently, and look what he has.

An inconsistent defensemen who is way over-payed (O'Brien), another inconsistent defensemen who plays poorly in his own end (Ehrhoff, who was

-12 last season), two cripples who are bound to get injured (Schneider and Salo), a bunch of pylons (Rome and Nycholat), another player who

*gasp* plays poorly in his own end (Bieksa, who was -4 last season), an overrated shutdown defenseman (Mitchell, who according to Canucks fans

should be on Team Canada) and mabye two proven NHL defensemen (Lukowich and Edler).....

In other words Gillis has overspent on defense.

So now we're overpaying for our defense..... puhhleezze!

  

LOL. I can play the same game.

Overpaid, overrated = Bouwmeester, Phanuef., Regehr

pylon = Sarich, Pardy

inconsistent, can't play in his own end = Giordano

aren't I clever?

But let's analyze who can't manage the cap effectively. The GM who is over the cap in August and has over a month to sort it out with 9 NHL defencemen or a GM who's team is forced to play with 17 players in the most crucial point in the season because of cap issues.

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[quote name='ren1 wrote:


Hockey_Canada1 wrote:

ren1 wrote:

Hockey_Canada1']Still? When was it ever the best?

When we signed Bouwmeester. Seems everyone outside Vancouver thinks the same thing. Maybe they should've asked some Canucks fans what they think first?

Like I said, hockey is not played in July. They haven't been the best because there is nothing to be the best of.

Then why are you asking to compare D-cores? If you ask me to compare now, I (and most of the rest of the hockey world) will say that ours is still better. If you want to wait for the season, don't bring it up and imply that yours is now on par with ours. What am I missing here?

Am I not allowed to argue against your self-proclamation of best in the league?

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Bouwmeester>Mitchell

Regehr>Edler

Phaneuf>Ehrhoff

Sarich=Bieksa

GiordanoPardy>O'Brien

Stralman>Lukowich

Your comparisons are way off.

why wouldn't you compare shut-downn vs. shut-down, ect...?

Bouwmeester vs. Edler

Phanuef vs. Bieksa

Regeher vs. Mitchell

Sarich vs. Ehrhoff

Giordanno vs. Schneider

Pardy vs. O'Brien

Stralman vs. Lukowich

in which case...

Bouwmeester >/= Edler

Phanuef > Bieksa

Regeher > Mitchell

Sarich < Ehrhoff

Giordanno < Schneider

Pardy < O'Brien

Stralman < Lukowich

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[quote name='ren1 wrote:


Hockey_Canada1']
Am I not allowed to argue against your self-proclamation of best in the league?

Not if your argument is that the Canucks' D is better, no. Good luck finding anyone outside of BC who agrees with you, especially since it remains to be seen how Gillis plans to get back under the cap.

So I can only argue if my opinion is that the Flames are better. I see.

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Oh wow. Am I really going to have to do this:

Regehr vs Mitchell:

Regehr(4.02M, 29 Years Old)[Drafted 19th Overall, 1999 by Colorado] = 666 Games; 25-104-129(750 shots on net) and is a +29 career with 669 Penalty Minutes. Sportsnet Career Potential: Defensive Stalwart. He is 3-12-15 with a +9 and 28 PIM in 41 Playoff Games.

Mitchell(3.5M, 32 Years Old)[Drafted 199th, 1996 by New Jersey] = 538 Games, 15-92-107(438 shots on net) and is a +69 career with 573 Penalty Minutes. Sportnset says: Shutdown D-Man. He is 1-6-7 in the playoffs with a +1 and 50 PIM in 45 Playoff Games.

Regehr Wins. 1-0 Flames

Bouwmeester vs Bieksa

Bouwmeester(6.68M, 25 Years Old)[Drafted 3rd overall, 2002 by Florida] = 471 Games; 53-150-203 and is -27 with 329 PIM. Sportsnet says: No.1 Defenseman. He has not playoff stats.

Bieksa(3.75M, 28 Years Old)[Drafted 151st Overall, 2001 by Vancouver] = 226 Games; 25-78-103 with a -15 and 398 PIM. Sportsnet says: Top 4 D-Man. He is 0-5-0 in the playoffs, with a +2 and 90 PIM in 27 Playoff Games.

Bouwmeester wins. 2-0 Flames

Phaneuf vs. Ehrhoff

Phaneuf(6.5M, 24 Years Old)[Drafted 9th Overall, 2003 by Calgary] = 323 Games; 65-141-206 with a +16 and 473 PIM. Sportsnet says: Top pairing defenseman with tremendous offensive acumen. He is 5-7-12 with a -12 and 22 PIM in 25 Playoff Games.

Ehrhoff(3.1M, 27 Years Old)[Drafted 106th Overall, 2001 by San Jose] = 341 Games; 25-107-132 with a +19 and 244 PIM. Sportsnet says: Top Four Defenseman. He is 2-13-15 with a +2 and 40 PIM in 38 Playoff Games.

Phaneuf Wins(o.o). 3-0 Flames.

Anything else?

Anything else? How about the rest of the defence?

Edler or Sarich?

Schneider or Giordano?

O'Brien or Pardy?

Lukowich of Stralman?

But you can't really compare player to player, because each team has a different philosphy on building a defensive core. Both of which are effective.

Here is how I see the Flames this year.  Offensively, what I like most is their bottom 6 additions in Dawes and Sjostrom, both have an outside chance of magically having a Bourque-like breakout season and really helping the offence. I have been watching Dawes specifically to see him break out and it just hasn't happened yet. What I don't like is how they are still missing one more top 6 forward to really be a dominant team. Having either Moss or Boyd in your top 6 is fine, having both is troubling. Backlund I don't see being effective in a top 6 role right away (similar situation as Hodgson). You know what Iginla, Jokinen and Langkow will give you. Bouque is a bit of a question mark. Will he take another step forward, have a similar season or step back? I expect similar, but who knows?

Defensively, they have a top 3 as good or better than anyone in the league. HOWEVER, defensive depth cannot be underrated. The grind of the season can wear on the big 3 playing a ton of minutes, and it showed a bit last season. Can Giordano or Pardy handle 20 minutes a night? I don't know. Sarich ain't no spring chicken, and he is going to have to start showing his age sooner or later. I saw more of it last year than I did in the past from him. And there is always a small chance of the big name player moving to a new team and a new system and not succeeding right away.

Kipper is Kipper. He will be solid most of the time, with the occasional stinker. You pretty much know what you are getting out of him, and with the right team it can be enough to win.

Now the Canucks situation is actually very similar. Offensively, you have the 3 guys who you know what you are getting with them. Kesler could take another step forward, have a similar season or take a small step back. I am hoping for the former, but expecting a similar season. I too see one more top 6 forward needed for this team to be considered elite. Having Samulesson or Burrows in your top 6 is fine, having both in your top 6 could be troubling. The advantage here is that I think Hodgson has a higher likelihood of stepping up into a top 6 role next season, but the good thing is if he doesn't, he can still be effective on line #3.

Defensively, we have essentially 5 top 4 defensemen. We don't have that legit #1 Norris candidate. But depth throughout the entire line-up instead. We don't have to depend on that one guy to be your !3 guy in every situation, but a ton of guys that can play roles and play them well. Our Powerplay should be vastly improved over last year, considering one of Schnieder, Salo, Ehrhoff, Edler or Bieksa won't even make the 2nd unit. There are 3 cannons from the point, as well as Schneider's experience and vision on the back end. I am excited to see the combinations we would see with the advantage.

Luongo is Luongo. You know what you get with him. A Vezina calibre goalie that can steal a game at any time. Criticisms of not being able to step up when needed most are overblown. Especially compared to every top level goalie that has had similar moments/games/runs/whatever.

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[quote name='cinlow wrote:


Sarich >~ Edler.

Edler puts up slightly more points, Sarich is better defensively. In the end I would say Sarich has the edge for being older and more developed, having more experience, being an NHL Ironman and a Stanley Cup champion.

Schneider = Giordano

Schneider is certainly a smarter player than Giordano and has way more offensive skill but that is what you get when you pay significantly more for a bottom pairing D man. In reverse, Giordano has less of a cap hit and is younger, faster, more physical and will be less of a liability in his own zone. Weighing the pros and cons of the two players I would call them a wash for a bottom pairing comparison.

O'Brien > Pardy

I really have no idea how to compare this. Pardy was our #7 guy last year and is being promoted to #6 but I would guess O'Brien has the advantage and is paid over twice as much.

Lukowich vs. Stralman

Lukowich is a career bottom pairing D man and from what I read Stralman is a young talented player who has the potential to develop into a top 4 defender and really only lacks strength to complete his game. Lukowich may be the more reliable #7 D man today who can hang out in the pressbox with the best of them but Stralman will be the better player to have on your roster.

"Slighty" more points? 20 vs. 37 is almost double. Edler is a better skater, passer, has a rocket from the point, played 4 more minutes per game, and was by far our best defenceman in the playoffs (8 points in 10 games, played over 22 minutes per). Playing a lot of games and being on a winning team 5 years ago doesn't make you a better defenceman.

This one is laughable. The are both consdiered offensive defencemen so stats should be a good comparison here.One had 32 points in 67 games as well as 17 in 23 when traded to a playoff contender, immediately improving said team's PP drastically while playing almost 21 minutes per game. The other had 19 points in 58 games while just 16 minutes a game. And to use your arguemtn for Sarich, one has more experience, more developed and a stanley cup ring. tongue.gif

O'Brien > Pardy. Yes.

Stralman likely will be a better player, key word is "will be". Right now, Lukowich is more reliable in a bottom pairing role. Therefore he wins this matchup.

cinlow wrote:

Sarich is aging? Really? If you put Sarich onto the Canuck's team he isactually right in the middle of the pack age wise and in the middle ofwhat most hockey analysts would consider his "prime" years (28-34).Sarich is younger than Mitchel and very comparable in skill andability. Considering most people thought Sarich was playingexceptionally I doubt you saw him showing anything other than thatunless you were watching through some blue coloured glasses.

Wow, I though he was older than he is. But be that as it may, I saw something out of his last season that I hadn't seen before. A lingering injury maybe? Mitchell is twice the shutdown defenceman Sarich is and ever will be.

cinlow']I would say that Defensively the Canucks basically have 5 'secondpairing defensemen' and no true top pairing caliber D on the team.Also, it is unrealistic to expect to keep that group as is since youare over the salary cap. One way or another your depth is going to haveto be diminished.
By one. Take out any one defenceman out of the Canucks core right now, and it the depth advantage still stands.

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[quote name='Hiphopopotamus wrote:


TheAce wrote:

Zirakzigil']I really dont see how you can compare the Flames and Canucks defense.
In a 60 minute game you are going to see Bouwmeester out there for 25-30min a game and Regehr out there for 20-30min a game.
This means that you will have a star defenseman out there for almost the entire game. 
The Canucks do not have a defenseman to match what either one of them brings to the game
. Then you add Phaneuf who has the ability to be a factor on the ice as well. Yes the Canucks have more depth and in the event of injuries have similar skill set players with the ability to step up, but they do not have a defenseman who can go out and set the tone on what is going to happen on the ice, the Flames have 2 and sometimes 3 defensemen that can do that. The Flames top 4 is better then the Canucks top 4. You are going to see the Flames top 4 on the ice for 50+ minutes a game. The bottom 2 defensemen are going to see limited minutes which will pretty much negate the fact that the Canucks have a better bottom 2.

You go on to say that Vancouver doesnt have a D-man that can match either of those players. Atleast a few honest flame fans have admitted that ever since Mitchell started playing against Iginla, he has been shut down pretty nicely. I dont think you can say the same about Regehr with the Sedins. In fact im not sure if there is a team that the Sedins play better against than Calgary. And before you say that there are 2 of them so how can Regehr shut 2 players down, isnt the critizism that the Sedins cant play without each other? So if Regehr was able to shut one of them down, then the other should be useless without him.

Ive admitted before that Bouwmeester is a very good player. I think someone would be foolish to say otherwise, but at the same time I dont think he is a Lidstrom/Chara type player. He averages 40 points a year and is a career minus player. I believe he is better defensively that his stats would say but I wouldnt say he dominant. I think most canuck fans underestimate him whether it be out of bitterness that we never signed him or that he signed with our biggest rival but I think Calgary fans overestimate what he will bring to your team much like when you got Jokinen, Tanguay, Amonte.

Iginla had 6 points in 6 games against the Canucks last season, which is just as good or better than either of the Sedin's when playing against Regehr. Either way, the only people who think Mitchell is on the same level as Regehr are Canuck fans, Mitchell didn't get an invitation to the Olympic camp whereas guys like Regehr, Hamhuis, and Seabrook did. All of whom I would consider better than Mitchell as of right now.

As for what Bouwmeester will bring is a solid addition to our blueline right away, and he has the potential to be a Norris winning d-man in the next few years. Most defensemen don't become dominant until a bit later in their careers.

Against the Flames last year, Daniel had 8 points and Henrik had 6.

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[quote name='Hiphopopotamus wrote:


Hockey_Canada1 wrote:

Hiphopopotamus wrote:

TheAce wrote:

Zirakzigil']I really dont see how you can compare the Flames and Canucks defense.
In a 60 minute game you are going to see Bouwmeester out there for 25-30min a game and Regehr out there for 20-30min a game.
This means that you will have a star defenseman out there for almost the entire game. 
The Canucks do not have a defenseman to match what either one of them brings to the game
. Then you add Phaneuf who has the ability to be a factor on the ice as well. Yes the Canucks have more depth and in the event of injuries have similar skill set players with the ability to step up, but they do not have a defenseman who can go out and set the tone on what is going to happen on the ice, the Flames have 2 and sometimes 3 defensemen that can do that. The Flames top 4 is better then the Canucks top 4. You are going to see the Flames top 4 on the ice for 50+ minutes a game. The bottom 2 defensemen are going to see limited minutes which will pretty much negate the fact that the Canucks have a better bottom 2.

You go on to say that Vancouver doesnt have a D-man that can match either of those players. Atleast a few honest flame fans have admitted that ever since Mitchell started playing against Iginla, he has been shut down pretty nicely. I dont think you can say the same about Regehr with the Sedins. In fact im not sure if there is a team that the Sedins play better against than Calgary. And before you say that there are 2 of them so how can Regehr shut 2 players down, isnt the critizism that the Sedins cant play without each other? So if Regehr was able to shut one of them down, then the other should be useless without him.

Ive admitted before that Bouwmeester is a very good player. I think someone would be foolish to say otherwise, but at the same time I dont think he is a Lidstrom/Chara type player. He averages 40 points a year and is a career minus player. I believe he is better defensively that his stats would say but I wouldnt say he dominant. I think most canuck fans underestimate him whether it be out of bitterness that we never signed him or that he signed with our biggest rival but I think Calgary fans overestimate what he will bring to your team much like when you got Jokinen, Tanguay, Amonte.

Iginla had 6 points in 6 games against the Canucks last season, which is just as good or better than either of the Sedin's when playing against Regehr. Either way, the only people who think Mitchell is on the same level as Regehr are Canuck fans, Mitchell didn't get an invitation to the Olympic camp whereas guys like Regehr, Hamhuis, and Seabrook did. All of whom I would consider better than Mitchell as of right now.

As for what Bouwmeester will bring is a solid addition to our blueline right away, and he has the potential to be a Norris winning d-man in the next few years. Most defensemen don't become dominant until a bit later in their careers.

Against the Flames last year, Daniel had 8 points and Henrik had 6.

Against the Flames yes, not against Regehr. He missed two games against the Canucks.Did he play the first two games? Because they had 5 and 4 points in those two games.

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