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Discussion & Debate Thread: Flames and Canucks

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.....

overpaying for a player who has never played an NHL game (cervenka)...

I don't think you understand contracts and in particular this one. To start with the contract is mostly performance bonus so think commission sales to get the drift. Add to that it is a 1 year contract and you would have a tough time arguing that any 1 year contract is overpaying in todays NHL.

Your telling me....

No the Canucks have been the best team in the NHL over the past 4 years.

Out of all those teams The Canucks have: The most wins, fewest losses, most points, 2nd in GF and 2nd in GA.

I realize you and Def have this thing going on between you but I am sorry you can't claim the "best hockey team" title for your Vancouver team. That title is reserved only for the Champions.

The one flaw in your idea that the Canucks are the best team is the fact that the reason teams play the playoffs is to win the final game and win the cup doing so. Why bother to have playoffs if all you want is the most wins gets the babe?

Just like golf, because your team manages to put a couple of decent rounds together does not make them the best. This is not particular to just hockey. You have to be able to finish the job and close out the competition. You haven't done that and failed. Teams that fail aren't the best.

Same with drag racing low ET and highest speed doesn't always win the drag race. In the Canucks case they seem to blow a tire before they finish.

In the spirit of the Olympics there is no gold or fastest time in the prelims we call regular season hockey. They don't hand out silver or bronze medals to the also rans. You win it all or you go home and your fans can pat you on the back and say you gave it a good try maybe next year. Well you can't even say that last season....

In the end when all is said and done, the only thing that really matters is the winners get to call themselves Champions. So burn those presidents Cups and screw your win loss records, they haven't yet got you to the point where you can call yourself Champions.

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I don't think you understand contracts and in particular this one. To start with the contract is mostly performance bonus so think commission sales to get the drift. Add to that it is a 1 year contract and you would have a tough time arguing that any 1 year contract is overpaying in todays NHL.

Well the cap hit is 4 million, and that's what I am getting at.

And I understand that it is only a 1 year deal which takes some of the risk off of the signing but it is an overpayment.

Maybe he breaks out this year, scores 25, gets 50 points and the deal is most justified, and me and alot of others who questioned that signing all end up being wrong.

But for a player who has never played and NHL game, that's a risky deal, and it is an overpayment.

I realize you and Def have this thing going on between you but I am sorry you can't claim the "best hockey team" title for your Vancouver team. That title is reserved only for the Champions.

The one flaw in your idea that the Canucks are the best team is the fact that the reason teams play the playoffs is to win the final game and win the cup doing so. Why bother to have playoffs if all you want is the most wins gets the babe?

Just like golf, because your team manages to put a couple of decent rounds together does not make them the best. This is not particular to just hockey. You have to be able to finish the job and close out the competition. You haven't done that and failed. Teams that fail aren't the best.

Same with drag racing low ET and highest speed doesn't always win the drag race. In the Canucks case they seem to blow a tire before they finish.

In the spirit of the Olympics there is no gold or fastest time in the prelims we call regular season hockey. They don't hand out silver or bronze medals to the also rans. You win it all or you go home and your fans can pat you on the back and say you gave it a good try maybe next year. Well you can't even say that last season....

In the end when all is said and done, the only thing that really matters is the winners get to call themselves Champions. So burn those presidents Cups and screw your win loss records, they haven't yet got you to the point where you can call yourself Champions.

I never said we were champions and I hope we never win another presidents trophy.

We haven't been playoff wise, I can't argue that, but overall in the last 4 years, (under MG who Def was saying is a bad GM, which is why I brought this up), we have excelled.

We have been in the most playoff series (tied with a few teams) so though we have not won a cup we have had playoff success.

It was a bold statement for sure but I was just trying to demontrate the success our team has had in the Gillis era.

I do understand it's really not important especially to a team like ours where the cup really only matters, but when you look at our team and other teams in the league, I think we can take a moment to admire our acomplishments.

Especially since before Gillis came our team was going downhill.

So it's bold statement, critism is fair, we haven't won a cup which matters the most but over the four years we have been the most successful team not to win the cup and I have really confident with a few more moves this offseason we will be a huge contender, I like our chances this year.

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I realize you and Def have this thing going on between you but I am sorry you can't claim the "best hockey team" title for your Vancouver team. That title is reserved only for the Champions.

The one flaw in your idea that the Canucks are the best team is the fact that the reason teams play the playoffs is to win the final game and win the cup doing so. Why bother to have playoffs if all you want is the most wins gets the babe?

Just like golf, because your team manages to put a couple of decent rounds together does not make them the best. This is not particular to just hockey. You have to be able to finish the job and close out the competition. You haven't done that and failed. Teams that fail aren't the best.

Same with drag racing low ET and highest speed doesn't always win the drag race. In the Canucks case they seem to blow a tire before they finish.

In the spirit of the Olympics there is no gold or fastest time in the prelims we call regular season hockey. They don't hand out silver or bronze medals to the also rans. You win it all or you go home and your fans can pat you on the back and say you gave it a good try maybe next year. Well you can't even say that last season....

In the end when all is said and done, the only thing that really matters is the winners get to call themselves Champions. So burn those presidents Cups and screw your win loss records, they haven't yet got you to the point where you can call yourself Champions.

So they're the 5th best team in the league over the last 4yrs?

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So they're the 5th best team in the league over the last 4yrs?

Every teams 1st goal in any season is to make the playoffs. That however isn't and shouldn't be the only goal. It is like a race from Edmonton to Calgary. Your first goal is to stop in Red Deer and fill up the tank and grab a bite to eat. The end goal is to complete the trip. You have to make it to Red Deer then you can be among the others who are racing to finish the trip. It doesn't matter in the end if you made it to Red Deer first or last if you don't finish the race to Calgary now does it?

If you want to pat your self on the back for making it to Red Deer first then go ahead but you haven't won anything of note. If you never make it to Calgary then you failed to finish like everyone else.

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Every teams 1st goal in any season is to make the playoffs. That however isn't and shouldn't be the only goal. It is like a race from Edmonton to Calgary. Your first goal is to stop in Red Deer and fill up the tank and grab a bite to eat. The end goal is to complete the trip. You have to make it to Red Deer then you can be among the others who are racing to finish the trip. It doesn't matter in the end if you made it to Red Deer first or last if you don't finish the race to Calgary now does it?

If you want to pat your self on the back for making it to Red Deer first then go ahead but you haven't won anything of note. If you never make it to Calgary then you failed to finish like everyone else.

ahhh...

so they're tied with every other team that failed to make it Calgary for 5th best in the league... and likely moving to Red Deer?

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ahhh...

so they're tied with every other team that failed to make it Calgary for 5th best in the league... and likely moving to Red Deer?

There could be some advantages of moving to Red Deer DL...

The city does not have riots, and their hockey team has won a championship... :)

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but overall in the last 4 years, (under MG who Def was saying is a bad GM, which is why I brought this up), we have excelled.

We have been in the most playoff series (tied with a few teams) so though we have not won a cup we have had playoff success.

It was a bold statement for sure but I was just trying to demontrate the success our team has had in the Gillis era.

It depends on how you define playoff success. Generally winning the cup would define playoff success. Outscoring your opponent could also lead you to playoff success, but the fact of the matter is, the Nucks HAVEN'T been outscoring their opponent in the "Gillis era" and HAVEN'T been having playoff success.

Of the teams in comparison in playoff games played in the last four seasons, the successful teams have outscored their opponents.

BOSTON - 56 GP, 166 GF, 128 GA

DETROIT - 51 GP, 164 GF, 122 GA

CHICAGO - 52 GP, 166 GF, 149 GA

PITTSBURGH - 50 GP, 161 GF, 154 GA

VANCOUVER - 52 GP, 139 GF, 150 GA

On top of that, any Stanley Cup runner up in over a decade maybe more, has a positive goals for differential, but NOT the NUCKS.

2012 - NJ........59-58..........+1

2011 - VAN.....58-69..........-11

2010 - PHI.......76-61.........+15

2009 - DET......76-48........ +28

2008 - PIT....... 61-43........ +18

2007- OTT...... 59-47......... +12

2006- EDM..... 70-61.......... +9

2004- CGY..... 60-53........... +7

2003- ANA...... 45-40.......... +5

2002- CAR...... 47-43.......... +4

2001- NJ......... 69-52......... +17

2000- DAL....... 52-46.......... +6

1999- BUF....... 59-49......... +10

1998- WSH...... 53-47.......... +6

This would suggest that the Nucks had no business being in the Stanley Cup Finals to begin with. Even though they went the distance with the Bruins, they were BADLY outplayed by the Bruins. (Outscored 20-8) It was rather an embarrassment, no wonder the riot! Heck, if it wasn't for a lucky bounce in the 1st round against the Hawks in game 7 in OT, they would've been done. They were LUCKY to come away with that series, even outscored 22-16 yet won the series.

Regardless, the list of teams at the top (Bos, Chi, Det, Pit) are examples of teams who have been successful in the playoffs over the past four seasons. ALL CHAMPIONS. And well, the Nucks, just simply are NOT on the list. They might be successful in getting to the playoffs, but they ALWAYS choke. You know it!

Or at least you should if you are a Nucks fan!!!!!!

Just sayin :lol:

CHOKEb455bf088571876ec64b50237af6b86a_10404choking_crop_340x234.jpg?1308459495

.

.

And for what it's worth..... when the Flames were in the Finals in '04, we outscored the Bolts 14-13 in that series. WE DESERVED TO BE THERE!

:P

.

.

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we haven't won a cup which matters the most but over the four years we have been the most successful team not to win the cup

Maybe one of the more "successful regular season teams not to win the cup" but if you look at the numbers you could also say the Nucks were the worst Stanley Cup runner up in DECADES!

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Wow. Canucks really did suck.

Can't believe they choked all the way thru to gm 7 like that and didn't deserve to be there. Ah well.

Hopefully the choke and suck again this yr.

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Wow. Canucks really did suck.

Can't believe they choked all the way thru to gm 7 like that and didn't deserve to be there. Ah well.

Hopefully the choke and suck again this yr.

Hey Bra,

The Canucks are perennial losers. You should be used to it by now!

The only thing that matters is the Flames have 26 playoff appearances versus the Nucks 24. The Flames have 3 Stanley Cup appearances versus' the Nucks 2.

AND MOST IMPORTANTLY, the Flames have a Stanley Cup, versus the Nucks.....AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA, can't stop laughing!!!!!

The Toronto Maple Leafs will win a cup FAR before the Nucks! And that says something!

I wish you a long and prosperous life!

crying_baby.jpg

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Thank god Calgary has a cup.

No honestly...

otherwise seeing the second round just once in 23 yrs would be looking extremely pathetic as an organization.

So at at least there's that cup win from the 80's.

Vancouver - no cup wins. so you have that at least. and always.

thumbs-up-64x64.jpg

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Thank god Calgary has a cup.

No honestly...

otherwise seeing the second round just once in 23 yrs would be looking extremely pathetic as an organization.

So at at least there's that cup win from the 80's.

Vancouver - no cup wins. so you have that at least. and always.

thumbs-up-64x64.jpg

You're getting so amp'd DL.

I don't mind seeing the second round in 23 years if that meant for us to win a cup.

Bet proposal DL ... Calgary wins more games than Vancouver this year? Loser post a facial picture of themselve with a sign saying "I'm DL44 or I'm Derftrocity from FDC"

Well the cap hit is 4 million, and that's what I am getting at.

And I understand that it is only a 1 year deal which takes some of the risk off of the signing but it is an overpayment.

Maybe he breaks out this year, scores 25, gets 50 points and the deal is most justified, and me and alot of others who questioned that signing all end up being wrong.

But for a player who has never played and NHL game, that's a risky deal, and it is an overpayment.

I never said we were champions and I hope we never win another presidents trophy.

We haven't been playoff wise, I can't argue that, but overall in the last 4 years, (under MG who Def was saying is a bad GM, which is why I brought this up), we have excelled.

We have been in the most playoff series (tied with a few teams) so though we have not won a cup we have had playoff success.

It was a bold statement for sure but I was just trying to demontrate the success our team has had in the Gillis era.

I do understand it's really not important especially to a team like ours where the cup really only matters, but when you look at our team and other teams in the league, I think we can take a moment to admire our acomplishments.

Especially since before Gillis came our team was going downhill.

So it's bold statement, critism is fair, we haven't won a cup which matters the most but over the four years we have been the most successful team not to win the cup and I have really confident with a few more moves this offseason we will be a huge contender, I like our chances this year.

Of course you didn't say you were the Champions. That isn't even possible. Flames fans can say that, you can not. I'm glad you remember that in your reply!

The fact is you really don't know anything about hockey which is why you should stay on the CDC board. That is where most of the kids hang out. This forum is RSVP for intelligent conversations.

I believe there is a thread on the CDC "What pokeman cards are the coolest?" You should have lots of good fun in that one. You're welcome =)

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You're getting so amp'd DL.

I don't mind seeing the second round in 23 years if that meant for us to win a cup.

Bet proposal DL ... Calgary wins more games than Vancouver this year? Loser post a facial picture of themselve with a sign saying "I'm DL44 or I'm Derftrocity from FDC"

I think it's well established making bets with you is completely pointless.

Calgary will get more wins than Vancouver this season? You predicting Vancouver to miss the playoffs as well? heh...

Vancouver (1st overall - 51 wins)..

OUT: Rome, Salo, Pahlsson

IN: Garrison

Hmmm... looks ready to plummet to me.

Calgary (17th overall pts - 37 wins - 21st in wins)..

OUT: Jokinen, Moss, TKo, Hannan

IN: Wideman, Sven, Hudler, Cervenka

Strengthens the D, wings, adds youth and speed.. weakens the C, experience, size and grit.

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Hey Bra,

The Canucks are perennial losers. You should be used to it by now!

The only thing that matters is the Flames have 26 playoff appearances versus the Nucks 24. The Flames have 3 Stanley Cup appearances versus' the Nucks 2.

Not that it changes much, but the Canucks also have 3 finals appearances.

Hey Bra,

The Canucks are perennial losers. You should be used to it by now!

The only thing that matters is the Flames have 26 playoff appearances versus the Nucks 24. The Flames have 3 Stanley Cup appearances versus' the Nucks 2.

Not that it changes much, but the Canucks also have 3 finals appearances.

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Not that it changes much, but the Canucks also have 3 finals appearances.

As well as 3 finals disappearances as a consolation prize... ;)

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More than the Flames have!

Next debate:

Does crying yourself to sleep after not making the playoffs hurt less than crying yourself to sleep after losing your chance at the stanley cup.

And go!

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Next debate:

Does crying yourself to sleep after not making the playoffs hurt less than crying yourself to sleep after losing your chance at the stanley cup.

And go!

One comes with a lot more emotions in the "shame" family of feelings than the other.

In terms dramatic highs and low... Missing the playoffs becomes almost expected as a 82 schedule works itself out... So there's this inevitable non dramatic point of having your expected disappointment realized.. more of a sadness, shame and sense of exclusion and general inferiority.

Where as getting to the finals you are riding high as a kite for 8 weeks allowing yourself to give in and actually dream about your team raising the cup.. so the loss is relatively dramatically more shocking and devastating initially. But at least you're filled with a sense of pride as you partied with your team thru 3rounds of victorious glory... Vs 82 gms of mediocrity and building frustration.

So to answer your question, of course Yes initially, but overall its WAY more of a deep seeded pain and a more sustained and long lasting hurt when u miss.

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Not that it changes much, but the Canucks also have 3 finals appearances.

As well as 3 finals disappearances as a consolation prize... ;)

More than the Flames have!

If you meant that the Canucks have more disappearances (failed to win) in the finals than the Flames, then your statement is true...

If you meant that the Canucks have made more appearances in the finals than the Flames, then your statement is false... The Flames made the finals in 85/86, 88/89 and 03/04...

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If you meant that the Canucks have more disappearances (failed to win) in the finals than the Flames, then your statement is true...

If you meant that the Canucks have made more appearances in the finals than the Flames, then your statement is false... The Flames made the finals in 85/86, 88/89 and 03/04...

*whoooosh*

Yes I know. Just my usual attempt at self-deprecating humour.

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Next debate:

Does crying yourself to sleep after not making the playoffs hurt less than crying yourself to sleep after losing your chance at the stanley cup.

And go!

How about who's fan base will cry harder when the Edmonton Oilers pass them in the standings and don't look back? Calgary or Vancouver?

I'd have to go with Calgary fans and it should only be a season or two away. Better start sandbagging the Bow :lol:

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How about who's fan base will cry harder when the Edmonton Oilers pass them in the standings and don't look back? Calgary or Vancouver?

I'd have to go with Calgary fans and it should only be a season or two away. Better start sandbagging the Bow :lol:

We could probably immaturely debate whose cup win was more mem- Oh wait.

:lol:

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We could probably immaturely debate whose cup win was more mem- Oh wait.

:lol:

Or we could predict what percentage of the board members here were alive for the Flames cup.. ;)

Not quite Leaf fan territory tho... so there's that.

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We could probably immaturely debate whose cup win was more mem- Oh wait.

:lol:

Does a cup win count as "memorable" if most of the fans don't remember it?

I have just as much of a memory of my team winning a cup as half the fans here.

:lol: me and DL44 thinking along the same lines.

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Or we could predict what percentage of the board members here were alive for the Flames cup.. ;)

Not quite Leaf fan territory tho... so there's that.

Certainly a lot more then were alive when the Canucks won a SC. :lol:

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