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Discussion & Debate Thread: Flames and Canucks

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Yeah.. seems like the best Dman in the draft will be on the Flames platter @ 6.

 

 

On average, the top D is ranked in at 7. We'll see...

Sure hope you're right. I'd have no problem with Chychrun knowing Edm and Van thought Tkachuk (Steve Ott/Justin Abdelkader) and Dubois (Either Ritchie brother) were better picks than him.

It'd be fun to watch.

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Sure hope you're right. I'd have no problem with Chychrun knowing Edm and Van thought Tkachuk (Steve Ott/Justin Abdelkader) and Dubois (Either Ritchie brother) were better picks than him.

It'd be fun to watch.

Cheeky.

I'm personally not high on Tkachuk yet. I'm stuck on hearing once he had a skating issue. But Great IQ. Pedigree. Otherwise ignorant of his game other than a couple highlights. Never seen Dubois. Like ever. Like no idea what he looks like. Just know hes still 17, 6'3, late season push as he grew into his body, 20 pts greater 2nd place on his team. Seems too good to pass up.

Whichever one Edm selects should hopefully bust.

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Not at 5.

With Hutton(22) and Tryamkin(21) appearing outta thin air looking like potential top 4 dmen, the greater need in the Canucks organization is SCORING. A  D will likely be targeted at 33.

 

Combined with Benning's belief that this draft is lacking true #1 Dmen and his interview this morning it looks like one of Tkachuk or Dubois.

 

I trekked over the flames forum and looks like you are leaning Nylander.. It's crazy how between 6 and about 10-12ish, the preferences by fans is such a toss up!!

Pretty interesting comments from Benning about the lack of a true #1 Dman. I think he's right about that but guys like Chychrun still projects to be a top pair guy. That does sound like a vote for either Dubois or Tkachuk.

Is Hamhuis all but gone in the summer? That leaves basically Tanev and Edler who I think are best suited as 2nd pair guys, no?

Also, what happens to Baertschi long term? 2nd line LW who some Canucks fans feel was one the their best players down the stretch. Does he get demoted long term in favor of Tkachuk or Dubois assuming Daniel Sedin is there for a few more years?

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Pretty interesting comments from Benning about the lack of a true #1 Dman. I think he's right about that but guys like Chychrun still projects to be a top pair guy. That does sound like a vote for either Dubois or Tkachuk.

Is Hamhuis all but gone in the summer? That leaves basically Tanev and Edler who I think are best suited as 2nd pair guys, no?

Also, what happens to Baertschi long term? 2nd line LW who some Canucks fans feel was one the their best players down the stretch. Does he get demoted long term in favor of Tkachuk or Dubois assuming Daniel Sedin is there for a few more years?

My guess is Hamhuis is gone... Roll with Edler-Tanev(a very good shutdown top pairing), Hutton on the 2nd pair, Sbisa on the 3rd... Then see where their chemistry falls with Tryamkin and Larsen..Pedan as the 8th... Biega as 1st call up.. A trade or signing of an additional vet to push/challenge Tryamkin/Larsen/Pedan.... That would be my pre-draft, pre-FA, pre-camp guesstimate. We'll seewhat transactions the Canucks actually pull off.

As for worrying about how the LWers fall in place... I can only hope that becomes an issue down the road! Always good to have a position of strength. One of those 'cross that bridge when you get to it' type deals..

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My guess is Hamhuis is gone... Roll with Edler-Tanev(a very good shutdown top pairing), Hutton on the 2nd pair, Sbisa on the 3rd... Then see where their chemistry falls with Tryamkin and Larsen..Pedan as the 8th... Biega as 1st call up.. A trade or signing of an additional vet to push/challenge Tryamkin/Larsen/Pedan.... That would be my pre-draft, pre-FA, pre-camp guesstimate. We'll seewhat transactions the Canucks actually pull off.

As for worrying about how the LWers fall in place... I can only hope that becomes an issue down the road! Always good to have a position of strength. One of those 'cross that bridge when you get to it' type deals..

Is the ceiling of Hutton or Tryamkin anywhere near top pairing?

I guess looking into the future, the Canucks don't really have any replacements for the Sedins. Might not be a bad time to draft a high end forward.

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Is the ceiling of Hutton or Tryamkin anywhere near top pairing?

I guess looking into the future, the Canucks don't really have any replacements for the Sedins. Might not be a bad time to draft a high end forward.

That has been the talk all year here in Vancouver. Who will replace the Twins. So yup, this would be a great time to find one of the replacements.

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So the Canucks drop 2 spots to pick 5th.

DL44, any ideas who the Canucks will pick? Hearing or reading any news about whether the preference is a forward or D?

 

I would say whichever of Tkachuk or Dubois falls to us.

I think it's pretty simple at this point. Benning doesn't believe there is a true #1 in this draft, so at 5 there should be a forward taken. Benning confirmed as much on radio today.

Who knows... maybe open to trading down if a more forward desperate team decides to make an offer... i.e. Montreal.

 

The WAAAY more intriguing question is who the Flames will target @ 6 assuming the top 3 are the top 3 and 4/5 are Tkachuk/Dudois?

 

It really comes down to what Edmonton does.  

 

If there stupid enough to select a D  @ 4th then its a win for both the Nucks & Flames as the Nucks will select Tkachuk, Flames pick Dubois. 

 

Its no secret that Edmontons 4th pick is in play and the only team I see making a pitch for it that makes sense for both teams would be Phoenix. They missed on Mathews but are very high on Tkachuk and thay have a few pieces that Edmonton needs so a swap of  picks and a player = trade.

 

Reguardless if Edmonton trades or keeps the pick, Tkachuk goes 4th...he is to good and the quality of top D men in this draft does not warrant a 4th. Tkachuk is everything that Edmonton needs and just opens the door for other players to be traded.

 

Tkachuk goes 4th

 

Nucks take Dudois 5th

 

Flames Take Nylander 6th

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Panthers have traded Gudbranson and a  2016 5th round pick (was the Islanders) to the Nucks for McCann and the Nucks 2016 2nd and 4th round picks...

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I should know more about Gudbranson, but I feel like McCaan could be a top6 guy, so maybe both teams are getting what they want? Although, I think this means the Canucks definitely draft a forward now. 

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I think Gudbranson is an old school NHL D with limited upside in today's game. But the bigger issue is how Vancouver keeps clearing picks and prospects from the organization. It's going to be tough to rebuild without them.

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Jim Benning is a puzzling guy.  He gave up a very young centre with offensive upside for a young-ish d-man with zero offensive tendencies.  Gudbranson is the stay-at-home type.  And, he gave up his 2nd (33rd OA) and 4th round picks for a 5th rounder.

 

Is it just me, or is this a very lop-sided trade?

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I like Gudbranson, but he is limited in what he can do. He is a top 4 defenseman. So acquiring him does make sense for Vancouver.

Vancouver had mishandled McCann from day 1, he wasn't ready to play in the NHL last year so instead of playing him the OHL they played him on the 4th line all season.

This trade on paper is very lopsided in favour of Florida, but only if Vancouver hasn't already succeeded in ruining McCann.

I thought when Linden took over in Vancouver that they would be a better structured organization, but that hasn't even been close to the case. They can't decide if they are coming or going. For a team that has terrible prospect depth trading away a young player and a 2nd makes little to no sense.

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I think Gudbranson is an old school NHL D with limited upside in today's game. But the bigger issue is how Vancouver keeps clearing picks and prospects from the organization. It's going to be tough to rebuild without them.

This could turn out to be a hockey trade, but I agree they seem to be playing more "win now" and I think thats misreading what they are.

I think back to when we were hiring a GM and the top 2 were considered to be Sweeney and Benning. Really happy we got Treliving now

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Seems like Vancouver overpaid a little.  Gudbranson is a stay at home defenseman and based on what I've seen has limited upside and isn't a great skater.  So, he's not a guy that will be your #1 or #2 D but more like a shut down guy.  That's good to have but it's a lot to give up.

 

I think Vancouver should probably stop making trades with the Panthers.  It hasn't gone well recently.

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This could turn out to be a hockey trade, but I agree they seem to be playing more "win now" and I think thats misreading what they are.

I think back to when we were hiring a GM and the top 2 were considered to be Sweeney and Benning. Really happy we got Treliving now

Benning seems like he would've been or is quite like Feaster in his trade history. We were getting fleeced in almost every trade, but drafting was better. The problem with Benning is, drafting is apparently his strength and he is GMing and dealing more from his weakness.

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I think Gudbranson is an old school NHL D with limited upside in today's game. But the bigger issue is how Vancouver keeps clearing picks and prospects from the organization. It's going to be tough to rebuild without them.

 

Personally, I think this should have been one of the things Edmonton should have done.  Not the only thing, but a start in the right direction.  They have Nurse who could play this way, once he learns how to play defense, but nobody else.  Reinhart hasn't even established himself at that level yet.

 

Here's a take on the deal by Willis:

 

http://edmontonjournal.com/sports/hockey/nhl/cult-of-hockey/cult-of-hockey-erik-gudbranson-trade-reinforces-how-poorly-oilers-fared-in-griffin-reinhart-deal

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Seems like Vancouver overpaid a little.  Gudbranson is a stay at home defenseman and based on what I've seen has limited upside and isn't a great skater.  So, he's not a guy that will be your #1 or #2 D but more like a shut down guy.  That's good to have but it's a lot to give up.

 

I think Vancouver should probably stop making trades with the Panthers.  It hasn't gone well recently.

 

I agree that is alot to pay for a very one dimensional dman. Gudbranson fits what the Canucks want, big physical team, but that is all he gives you. I actually like him in the playoffs, he was rock solid in his own zone, but he is pretty much useless everywhere else. Not a good puck mover, not a PP guy, so not a guy I think you should pay alot for in today's NHL. Not to mention, he is pretty pricey at over 3 million with a long term deal on the Horizon. I'm not a big Jared McCann fan and I think he is limitd in what he can do that the NHL level but I still think this is a lot to give up for a player like Gudbranson.

 

Very interesting logic for Florida too as they aren't exactly overflowing with D so this much be a move to clear out salary. Even more interesting is I think this really confirms those rumours that Dale Tallon's "promotion" was in fact not a promotion at all. Friedman speculated that he was hearing that the move was actually designed to reduce Tallon's role in the club and that looks to be correct. I don't think Dale Tallon would make a deal like this. 

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Jim Benning is a puzzling guy.  He gave up a very young centre with offensive upside for a young-ish d-man with zero offensive tendencies.  Gudbranson is the stay-at-home type.  And, he gave up his 2nd (33rd OA) and 4th round picks for a 5th rounder.

 

Is it just me, or is this a very lop-sided trade?

You mean the type that put the D in defense(like Robyn Regehr)? He was logging almost 27 minutes in the playoffs.

 

McCaan might or might not develop as expected & will be slotted as a 3rd liner if not sent to the AHL for rehab to get the Canuck way out but Gudbranson is already a top 4. Hence the 2nd & 4th.

 

I remember McCaan looking disappointed when drafted by the Orca. @ least he escaped & hopefully without much damage being done.

****************************************************

Canucks got a player while Florida got a prospect & picks to add 2 more to a bulging pipeline.

To me the Orca won the trade.

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I don't get this trade for Florida..

Why trade a top 4 dman for futures considering where they are in their development... i mean they just won the division and are building something. .

High hopes for Matheson I assume... obviously.

Weird. But I like it.

Edler-Tanev

Hutton-Gudbranson

Sbisa-Tryamkin

Pedan/Larsen

My only knock on McCann was his hands... his lack of ability to cleanly handle the puck was frustrating... but had speed and a great shot.

Struck me as a more physical very Raymond-like player. Pretty good chance he'll become a regular middle 6 player... just need so develop those hands.

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You mean the type that put the D in defense(like Robyn Regehr)? He was logging almost 27 minutes in the playoffs.

 

That's a reasonable comparison.  If it was circa 2002 I'd be inclinded to agree with you.  Regehr was more effective before the lockout when skating and puck moving weren't at such a premium.

 

If Gudbranson is on the ice for 27 minutes but not offering any offense than for half a game you're asking the other 4 skaters he's with to do all of the offensive work.  He isn't a Doughty or Weber or Hedman that can play lots of minutes, shut down the other team and be an offensive threat.

 

Who are the Gudbranson comparibles in the league today:  Matt Greene?  Alzner?  Hjalmarsson?  All three have done more in the league and are probably considered better defensively than Gudbranson.  I wouldn't trade McCann, 33rd overall and the 4th rounder for one of those guys and certainly not a guy that has the potential to become one of those guys.

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That's a reasonable comparison.  If it was circa 2002 I'd be inclinded to agree with you.  Regehr was more effective before the lockout when skating and puck moving weren't at such a premium.

 

If Gudbranson is on the ice for 27 minutes but not offering any offense than for half a game you're asking the other 4 skaters he's with to do all of the offensive work.  He isn't a Doughty or Weber or Hedman that can play lots of minutes, shut down the other team and be an offensive threat.

 

Who are the Gudbranson comparibles in the league today:  Matt Greene?  Alzner?  Hjalmarsson?  All three have done more in the league and are probably considered better defensively than Gudbranson.  I wouldn't trade McCann, 33rd overall and the 4th rounder for one of those guys and certainly not a guy that has the potential to become one of those guys.

Opinions differ. In the goaies  thread some belief any goalie is as good as the rest.

IMO defensive D make a goalies life easier. Moreso than even the goalposts.

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Opinions differ. In the goaies  thread some belief any goalie is as good as the rest.

Hear ya...   Pretty hard to understand that line of thinking, isn't it?...

 

IMO defensive D make a goalies life easier. Moreso than even the goalposts.

 

As a long time goalie, I have to agree...

 

Gudbranson Is not and never be an elite D...   But he will not be fun to play against as a D for the Nucks either...

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I don't think anybody is saying that Gudbranson wasn't a good pick up. What I am saying at least is that Vancouver over paid for a 4th defenseman.

I do question a bit the fact that Vancouver's defense is already one of the slowest in the league and adding Gudbranson to that mix is just going to make them that much slower.

The other part that I wonder about is that I don't see Gudbranson holding up all that well over the years, he has only averaged 69 games a season (not counting the lockout year) so far in his career. So I can see him being a bottom pairing guy at best in another 2-3 years.

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I don't think anybody is saying that Gudbranson wasn't a good pick up. What I am saying at least is that Vancouver over paid for a 4th defenseman.

I do question a bit the fact that Vancouver's defense is already one of the slowest in the league and adding Gudbranson to that mix is just going to make them that much slower.

The other part that I wonder about is that I don't see Gudbranson holding up all that well over the years, he has only averaged 69 games a season (not counting the lockout year) so far in his career. So I can see him being a bottom pairing guy at best in another 2-3 years.

Is he really that slow? Or does the fact he covers his defensive duties (he is a D you know) rather than joining a rush make you think so?

 

Remember, on good teams they play a team defense. If a D joins the rush a good center will usually drop back to fill the spot to prevent 2 on 1s or 2 on goalie alone.

A 5 man rush with both D joining in leaves a goalie alone in case of a turnover.

 

So many today are judging only by offensive #s.

WTF do you think a D man's main job should be? scoring? Play 5 forwards with 2 listed as D.

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