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Discussion & Debate Thread: Flames and Canucks

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On 3/23/2018 at 6:57 PM, TheAce said:

 

If you compare what the expectations were for both teams heading into the season, Id say its the flames fans who are much more upset with how this season has gone especially in the last 4 games or so that were must wins for Calgary ....

 

Can't disagree with this. I know i'm much more upset about this season for the Flames than any of 2013,14 or 16. 

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In a stroke of awful luck for the Canucks, Olli Juolevi is undergoing back surgery. The type of surgery it is, has anywhere from 6 weeks to 10 weeks recovery time (and general consensus is, even if able to move without any pain/soreness/numbness after 6 weeks, it's still recommended no heavy physical activity until the 8-9 week mark). Apparently the first 3 weeks, you are basically bed-ridden. It's the same procedure Edler had in 2011. Worst part is, is that Joulevi's conditioning was already considered sub-par before this injury and loss of 1/2 to 2/3 of the offseason training.


This offseason, Boeser has had 2 surgeries, Joulevi is about to have surgery, and Pettersson (their 2017 first round pick) had one surgery. Maybe they're just getting all their injuries out of the way before the season starts. That is pretty rough for their team though.

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Ouch. Wasn't aware of Juolevi's back surgery. He's having quite a time taking the next step.

Was never a fan of how over-rated he was at the draft(by all parties, not just the Nux) but you hate to see a young kid going through so much adversity.

And certainly not his fault no one was asking, "but what's he like defensively"?

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6 hours ago, conundrumed said:

Ouch. Wasn't aware of Juolevi's back surgery. He's having quite a time taking the next step.

Was never a fan of how over-rated he was at the draft(by all parties, not just the Nux) but you hate to see a young kid going through so much adversity.

And certainly not his fault no one was asking, "but what's he like defensively"?

I think part of him getting drafted so high (and also, one pick ahead of Matty Tkachuk) was because he played defense, and was considered the best D-man in the draft at the time (which was, and still is, a huge organizational need for Vancouver). Hindsight being 20/20, there were plenty of better D in that draft (including McAvoy, Sergachev and currently though arguable when it comes to top end potential, Chychrun). I think to say it is being established that they didn't draft BPA, (Where Tkachuk and Alex Nylander were ranked higher, and Keller and Sergachev were ranked just slightly behind Juoli).

But definitely feel bad for the kid.

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From the Canuck's CDC board:

 

"Well there's the weekly bad news I've been expecting.  

 

Virtanen - Big physical forward who can hit like a truck.   Hockey gods - "Here Jake have a shoulder surgery"

 

Boeser - Can rip the puck with the best of them.  Hockey gods - "Here Brock have a wrist surgery"

 

Juolevi - Poised smooth skating defenceman.  Hockey gods - "Here Olli have a back surgery"

 

Petterson - Swedish phenom.  Hockey gods - "We're waiting for you, Elias"

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On 6/12/2018 at 0:24 PM, conundrumed said:

Ouch. Wasn't aware of Juolevi's back surgery. He's having quite a time taking the next step.

Was never a fan of how over-rated he was at the draft(by all parties, not just the Nux) but you hate to see a young kid going through so much adversity.

And certainly not his fault no one was asking, "but what's he like defensively"?

 

I recall Craig Conroy going on record a week before the draft hyping up Joulevi, prepping the Flames fan base for him.   We're lucky the Canucks decided they didn't want the next Brad Marchand.

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2 hours ago, The_People1 said:

 

I recall Craig Conroy going on record a week before the draft hyping up Joulevi, prepping the Flames fan base for him.   We're lucky the Canucks decided they didn't want the next Brad Marchand.

I would have imploded. There were a lot of players I'd have taken before him. I had him 5th best Dman.

I thought if everything went to plan, I was hoping to jump Keller up a few notches. If not, Chychrun was next and Sergachev right behind him.

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2 hours ago, conundrumed said:

If not, Chychrun was next and Sergachev right behind him

I had Chychrun as the best D-man on my list. But I still figured it would be Tkachuk, Keller or Chychrun. Glad we didn't get Joulevi, because Valimaki was definitely the better choice for the year after (which we likely wouldn't have grabbed if we had Joulevi).

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2 hours ago, conundrumed said:

I would have imploded. There were a lot of players I'd have taken before him. I had him 5th best Dman.

I thought if everything went to plan, I was hoping to jump Keller up a few notches. If not, Chychrun was next and Sergachev right behind him.

 

I was surprised (and disappointed) that he lasted till their 2nd pick.  Wished we had one for Chychrun.

 

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2 hours ago, conundrumed said:

Could have, just had to eat Datsyuk at 7.5 for a year.

 

I would’ve done that!!! 

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14 hours ago, conundrumed said:

Could have, just had to eat Datsyuk at 7.5 for a year.

 

Not quite unfortunately. 

 

Coytoes dealt picks 20, 53 and Joe Vitale to get up to 16 and also took Datsuyk. Flames would have needed another first rounder plus the cap space to absorb the deal and they had neither. 

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4 minutes ago, cross16 said:

 

Not quite unfortunately. 

 

Coytoes dealt picks 20, 53 and Joe Vitale to get up to 16 and also took Datsuyk. Flames would have needed another first rounder plus the cap space to absorb the deal and they had neither. 

Thanks cross, there I go trusting my failing memory again.

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5 hours ago, conundrumed said:

Thanks cross, there I go trusting my failing memory again.

Don't feel bad. Cross seems to have Rainman abilities when it comes to hockey sometimes.

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3 minutes ago, Cowtownguy said:

Don't feel bad. Cross seems to have Rainman abilities when it comes to hockey sometimes.

He always has me looking up the Atomic Symbol for the element of surprise: "Ah"...

:lol:

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On 6/14/2018 at 1:28 PM, conundrumed said:

I would have imploded. There were a lot of players I'd have taken before him. I had him 5th best Dman.

I thought if everything went to plan, I was hoping to jump Keller up a few notches. If not, Chychrun was next and Sergachev right behind him.

 

Most of CDC did implode...... even now, while there are many fans trying to make the best of it and defending the pick, there are still a large amount of fans who were and are upset at this pick. I had Juolevi as the 3rd best d-man as well but passing on Tkachuk was just plain silly.

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Trevor Linden fired.... Or ahem, consciously uncoupled with the Canucks.

 

He was doing so well for the Flames...I mean, the Canucks were headed in such a good direction for us.  I wonder why they canned him, or I mean, I wonder why they agreed to go separate ways.  They draft so well and have so many young key pieces locked up long term.  

 

This was going to be the year for them.

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4 hours ago, The_People1 said:

 

Trevor Linden fired.... Or ahem, consciously uncoupled with the Canucks.

 

He was doing so well for the Flames...I mean, the Canucks were headed in such a good direction for us.  I wonder why they canned him, or I mean, I wonder why they agreed to go separate ways.  They draft so well and have so many young key pieces locked up long term.  

 

This was going to be the year for them.

 

What they were saying on the Team 1040 today was that being president of the organization, they started to add outside duties onto his plate and it was becoming less about hockey ops and more about the Aquilinis. Things like selling condos and more, I just don’t remember exactly what. But he has a young family and if it was less about the hockey, he wanted to concentrate more on the family.

 

sounds like they wanted to turn him into a Ken king type Pres.

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Some speculation out there too that Linden actually forced this because he started to disagree with how they hockey team was being run both by Benning and the Acquilinis. Sounds like it became a poor fit and Linden's say in everything was becoming marginalized. 

 

Organization is in real trouble. They continue to sound exactly like the Flames pre Burke/Treliving. 

 

As an interesting aside it's interesting that hockey seems to be moving away from the President model. Burke and now Linden are both out with no replacements and the GM is back reporting to the owners directly. Interesting in that other sports use this model exclusively but hockey prefers to stay old fashioned. Another example of hockey getting it wrong IMO.

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Most large corporations require a board of directors to run a company. Otherwise, ownership tends to meddle in operations and generate problems between financiers, stock holders, and even the daily operations of the company. Bombardier was run into the ground by irrational decisions made by ownership. There are examples of where ownership (families being largest stock holders) has found public ownership to be constraining. Hockey has had several examples of where ownership has meddled in hockey operations and made it difficult to succeed. The Leafs had this problem for decades, and it sounds like that is what is happening in Vancouver. The question for all NHL teams is how to build a business model that keeps ownership at bay, yet responds to their investment interests. Can general managers do this alone? The Canucks have so many problems already that having Benning run everything seems like a recipe for disaster.

 

And what a fricken joke. They just chose to amicably go in different directions? Really, you think fans are that stupid? They were not walking in the forest and Benning decided to take the left path because of a beautiful flower in the horizon and Linden took the right path because he saw a dainty little deer sipping water in a brook. Ice hockey personnel make for terrible politicians, and there is no reason to try quite frankly.

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Some interesting stuff, not shocking but worth a listen.

 

If Linden was the buffer between ownership's madness and the GM's patience, then does this mean the owners are going to pressure Benning to rush a rebuild now that they squeezed Linden out of the picture?

 

On that note, did the Flames squeeze out Burke so ownership can directly pressure BT to win right now?

 

 

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1 hour ago, The_People1 said:

On that note, did the Flames squeeze out Burke so ownership can directly pressure BT to win right now?

 

 

 

I think Burke said that really BT had taken on a lot of what he was responsible for during the "intern" phase.  In other words, BT had removed the need for Burke and BT's contract was set up to remove going to ownership for permission.  No more asking if this or that trade could happen, whether it was through Burke or Burke going to the owners.  At least that's how I heard it.

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17 hours ago, The_People1 said:

 

Some interesting stuff, not shocking but worth a listen.

 

If Linden was the buffer between ownership's madness and the GM's patience, then does this mean the owners are going to pressure Benning to rush a rebuild now that they squeezed Linden out of the picture?

 

On that note, did the Flames squeeze out Burke so ownership can directly pressure BT to win right now?

 

 

 

I still personally believe that's exactly what happened with Burke. I know he and King said different publicly but at the ticket holder meeting I went to King ended with clarifying that he is going to be less involved in the business side of CESC and more involved in the arena and hockey side of things. 

 

There are rumors that in Treliving's last contract he got certain protections that limit ownership involvement but King has always been a hands on and involved executive and I don't know why that would change now. Big fear of mine moving forward. 

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24 minutes ago, cross16 said:

 

I still personally believe that's exactly what happened with Burke. I know he and King said different publicly but at the ticket holder meeting I went to King ended with clarifying that he is going to be less involved in the business side of CESC and more involved in the arena and hockey side of things. 

 

There are rumors that in Treliving's last contract he got certain protections that limit ownership involvement but King has always been a hands on and involved executive and I don't know why that would change now. Big fear of mine moving forward. 

 

Ya man.  That's bad news.  

 

If you don't trust your GM or want to hire a puppet to do your dealings, then this franchise is finished.

 

Even if your GM wants to trade Johnny, let him do it without asking.  You hired him because you believe in him.  Give him full permissions.  Let him do his job.

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1 hour ago, The_People1 said:

 

Ya man.  That's bad news.  

 

If you don't trust your GM or want to hire a puppet to do your dealings, then this franchise is finished.

 

Even if your GM wants to trade Johnny, let him do it without asking.  You hired him because you believe in him.  Give him full permissions.  Let him do his job.

That is pure impulsivity. Why bother hiring any management if the owner is just going to run the show. It will be interesting to see what happens in Carolina with such an interested owner. Of course, the former management team built the foundation for that club already.

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