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Discussion & Debate Thread: Flames and Canucks

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Fascinating story developing for the Canucks. According to Twitter Robert Luongo has "retired". If that is the case the Canucks will have a recapture penalty of 3 million (against their cap) for the next 3 years which i think is a massive story given they are in the market of paying Tyler Myers 7-8Mill AAV, Boeser needs a deal, Markstrom is a UFA next year and Petersson is an RFA is 2 more years. 

 

Canucks job just got that much harder. LTIR was rumored to be an option but apparently this is in fact a retirement and the Panthers really pushed Luongo to retire instead of sit on LTIR.  

 

 

 

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2 hours ago, cross16 said:

Fascinating story developing for the Canucks. According to Twitter Robert Luongo has "retired". If that is the case the Canucks will have a recapture penalty of 3 million (against their cap) for the next 3 years which i think is a massive story given they are in the market of paying Tyler Myers 7-8Mill AAV, Boeser needs a deal, Markstrom is a UFA next year and Petersson is an RFA is 2 more years. 

 

Canucks job just got that much harder. LTIR was rumored to be an option but apparently this is in fact a retirement and the Panthers really pushed Luongo to retire instead of sit on LTIR.  

 

 

 

 

Why would the Panthers rather Luongo retire than sit on LTIR?

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22 minutes ago, The_People1 said:

 

Why would the Panthers rather Luongo retire than sit on LTIR?

 

Because their penalty is just a shade over 1 million. Easier to just eat that amount that have to try and handle the complexity that is LTIR. 

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3 minutes ago, cross16 said:

 

Because their penalty is just a shade over 1 million. Easier to just eat that amount that have to try and handle the complexity that is LTIR. 

 

Hmm crazy.  I guess Luongo forfeits $3.6 million to do the Panthers a favour?  

 

 

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3 hours ago, cross16 said:

they are in the market of paying Tyler Myers 7-8Mill AAV

 

I really hope the Canucks sign Myers at $8-mil-per for 7-years.  That would sink them for the next 7-years.

 

Tanev is their best D and probably gets #1 D minutes (but Tanev is a #2/3 guy on most teams).  Myers is a 2nd pairing Dman and if paid $8-mil, then Tanev will want $8-mil on his new deal.  Edler is damaged goods and re-signed for 2-years.  Too many serious injuries/surgeries and he showed he slowed down last season.  He should only play 2nd pairing minutes and responsibilities.  Best case is Edler is used like Detroit used Kronwall, mainly, 3rd pair and situational guy.  Hughes is not ready for top pair and even second pair is rushing the kid.  Joulevi doesn't look ready.  Stetcher is a good bottom pair guy.  

 

All in all, the Canucks have good forwards that can win them games and a decent goalie in Markstrom.  Their D is not looking good next season and they will miss the playoffs because of it.

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The mastermind Mike Gillis contract, signing a goaltender to 43 yrs of age. VAN will be paying more this season in cap penalty than what PHI will be paying both Hart and Elliott. Over the next 3 seasons PHI may pay less for goaltending than what VAN pays in just penalty as well.

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1 hour ago, CheersMan said:

The mastermind Mike Gillis contract, signing a goaltender to 43 yrs of age. VAN will be paying more this season in cap penalty than what PHI will be paying both Hart and Elliott. Over the next 3 seasons PHI may pay less for goaltending than what VAN pays in just penalty as well.


I never understand the ridiculous term handed out on contracts awhile back. Kovalchuk had a similarly long deal that carried into his 40's I believe.

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In fairness to Mike Gilles (and really any GM as most of them did this), It is pretty bush league and unprofessional that the league put this rule in place AFTER the contract was signed and also choose to retroactively reinforce it. At the time Gilles signed it, it was perfectly legal until the NHL choose to change the rules after because they were not smart enough to see the loop hole in the first place. 

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Wait until Shea Weber packs it in in 3 more seasons. Not sure how the calculations work but the cap penalty to NAS may be considerably more than what VAN is paying for Luongo. Good to see the league shut down the loop hole before it got out of hand. Those contracts should have been denied in the first place. 

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29 minutes ago, CheersMan said:

Wait until Shea Weber packs it in in 3 more seasons. Not sure how the calculations work but the cap penalty to NAS may be considerably more than what VAN is paying for Luongo. Good to see the league shut down the loop hole before it got out of hand. Those contracts should have been denied in the first place. 

 

I believe the only reason VAN is penalized is because they retained cap in a trade whereas NAS traded the entire contract away so they get out of jail free in this case.  MTL should be on the hook for everything.

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2 hours ago, The_People1 said:

 

I believe the only reason VAN is penalized is because they retained cap in a trade whereas NAS traded the entire contract away so they get out of jail free in this case.  MTL should be on the hook for everything.

ahhh.... if that is the case then terrible trade for MTL.

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4 hours ago, CheersMan said:

ahhh.... if that is the case then terrible trade for MTL.

A case where the GM that makes the trade probably won't see when the contract really handcuffs the team, but benefits in the short term by the 1.5M in cap space saved from the bad contract he previously gave.  I think it's the Chiarelli model of team management "I won't be here in 5 years, but I'll max out all my resources and Blockchain over the next guy"

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19 hours ago, The_People1 said:

 

I believe the only reason VAN is penalized is because they retained cap in a trade whereas NAS traded the entire contract away so they get out of jail free in this case.  MTL should be on the hook for everything.

 

Recapture penalties are designed to penalize the team for the cap savings they gained by these contracts. Retaining salary in a trade doesn't trigger recapture, it's determined by the benefit gained in the contract so because Nashville got cap savings by front loading the deal they will face significant cap penalties if Weber were to retire before the end of the deal. 

 

Recapture is probabky one of the dumbest things ive seen a pro sports league do when it comes to contracts. NHL really screwed up that whole thing from start to finish. It's a really bad rule. 

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40 minutes ago, cross16 said:

 

Recapture penalties are designed to penalize the team for the cap savings they gained by these contracts. Retaining salary in a trade doesn't trigger recapture, it's determined by the benefit gained in the contract so because Nashville got cap savings by front loading the deal they will face significant cap penalties if Weber were to retire before the end of the deal. 

 

Recapture is probabky one of the dumbest things ive seen a pro sports league do when it comes to contracts. NHL really screwed up that whole thing from start to finish. It's a really bad rule. 

 

giphy.gif

 

What??  Makes no sense.  Do they still have this rule right now or was it changed?

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11 minutes ago, The_People1 said:

 

giphy.gif

 

What??  Makes no sense.  Do they still have this rule right now or was it changed?

 

It's still there, but it only applies to contracts to were signed during the previous CBA because the most recent CBA instituted the new contract length requirements that don't require this rule. Any contract that was more than 8 years (the new max) signed under the previous CBA is subject to potential recapture penalties if the deal was front loaded in order to save cap space. I think there are only about a half dozen contracts where this would actually apply. Players like Zach Parise, Ryan Suter, Crosby, Quick, Jeff Carter. Players like Zetterberg and Franzen fall in this cateogry too but it's already been reported the Wings just plan to use LTIR for those. 

 

it's a really, really confusing rule and like I said the more you dig into it the more it really looks dumb on the NHL. But now that they enforce 8 year contract maximums and have rules in place to how much you can front/back load deals there isn't a need for recapture on contracts signed since the last CBA. 

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One of the worst kept secrets, Myers will be a Canuck. Looks like they got him down to 6mill AAV. 

 

Still a bad deal. 

 

 

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Fantenberg to the Canucks. He was one of the only players to show up in the playoffs. He didn’t make a huge difference but also didn’t deserve to sit over some other D. 

Slightly miffed but not losing sleep. We could’ve saved money by retaining him and moving out another D. Although it would make the Flames weaker.

 

the Canucks can be a bit better this year, and we already had a hard time with them when they should’ve sucked.

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52 minutes ago, robrob74 said:

Fantenberg to the Canucks. He was one of the only players to show up in the playoffs. He didn’t make a huge difference but also didn’t deserve to sit over some other D. 

Slightly miffed but not losing sleep. We could’ve saved money by retaining him and moving out another D. Although it would make the Flames weaker.

 

the Canucks can be a bit better this year, and we already had a hard time with them when they should’ve sucked.

 

VAN is a mix of good and bad.

Myers is like Gubranson on defense, but a better scorer.

 

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Ferland out with yet another concussion, how many is that now, 5, 6, 7, 8? He gets in a seemingly harmless scrap with Clifford the other evening and he is out again. I think the Flames were looking long and hard at Ferland in July and would have bit had they had any kind of Cap space but VAN bit the hardest with $3.5x4yrs. I think most of our fans were wishing we landed him as well. As much as I like Ferland, so glad we had no room for him in July, I think his hockey career is finished. Sure he may return but he will never be that dependable power forward that can scrap occasionally if need be. I think he is done, and that is too bad because I liked his game, but not against us. 

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1 hour ago, CheersMan said:

Ferland out with yet another concussion, how many is that now, 5, 6, 7, 8? He gets in a seemingly harmless scrap with Clifford the other evening and he is out again. I think the Flames were looking long and hard at Ferland in July and would have bit had they had any kind of Cap space but VAN bit the hardest with $3.5x4yrs. I think most of our fans were wishing we landed him as well. As much as I like Ferland, so glad we had no room for him in July, I think his hockey career is finished. Sure he may return but he will never be that dependable power forward that can scrap occasionally if need be. I think he is done, and that is too bad because I liked his game, but not against us. 

 

Sad story.  He's still a hero here in Flamesland.  Hope he gets well soon and for his sake, hope he stops fighting (and hitting). 

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On 11/1/2019 at 9:11 PM, CheersMan said:

Ferland out with yet another concussion, how many is that now, 5, 6, 7, 8? He gets in a seemingly harmless scrap with Clifford the other evening and he is out again. I think the Flames were looking long and hard at Ferland in July and would have bit had they had any kind of Cap space but VAN bit the hardest with $3.5x4yrs. I think most of our fans were wishing we landed him as well. As much as I like Ferland, so glad we had no room for him in July, I think his hockey career is finished. Sure he may return but he will never be that dependable power forward that can scrap occasionally if need be. I think he is done, and that is too bad because I liked his game, but not against us. 

 

That linesman kept tugging at his jersey in that fight, threw up right off and he's a classy guy so probably stopped fighting back thinking they were going to step in. Then took a few heavy ones because of it.

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54 minutes ago, robrob74 said:

 

That linesman kept tugging at his jersey in that fight, threw up right off and he's a classy guy so probably stopped fighting back thinking they were going to step in. Then took a few heavy ones because of it.

 

He's a fave of mine.

I hope he gets better and VAN uses a goon for fighting.

 

As much as the Nucks look for real, they will fade.

Beyond the top line, they have a bunch of hard workers.

The ethic will get them wins, but not enough to make the playoffs. 

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31 minutes ago, travel_dude said:

 

He's a fave of mine.

I hope he gets better and VAN uses a goon for fighting.

 

As much as the Nucks look for real, they will fade.

Beyond the top line, they have a bunch of hard workers.

The ethic will get them wins, but not enough to make the playoffs. 


 

I actually don’t see much of a difference between them and the Flames. 
 

Top heavy. Decent D. I think we are kidding ourselves if we think our D is head and shoulders above theirs. 
 

I think we have one more Top 6 forward that is better. The difference I do see is that the work ethic is there for them so far. We see glimpses on our side. 
 

for me the difference on D was going to be Valamaki, but he got injured. 
 

we are like them, an injury or two from key players can and will sink us. 
 

 

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1 minute ago, robrob74 said:


 

I actually don’t see much of a difference between them and the Flames. 
 

Top heavy. Decent D. I think we are kidding ourselves if we think our D is head and shoulders above theirs. 
 

I think we have one more Top 6 forward that is better. The difference I do see is that the work ethic is there for them so far. We see glimpses on our side. 
 

for me the difference on D was going to be Valamaki, but he got injured. 
 

we are like them, an injury or two from key players can and will sink us. 
 

 

 

They are plaing well now and we are not.

 

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17 hours ago, travel_dude said:

 

They are plaing well now and we are not.

 


 

I just see parallels to how the two teams are built. They have their versions of Johnny and Monny, And Backs, and then a lighter Tkachuk. Where we are up is Lindholm. 
 

I think the D is better than expected over there. They have a fairly solid top 4 when Tanev And Edler are healthy. 
 

they have a heavier bottom 6, and the team is trying and ours isn’t.

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