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Discussion & Debate Thread: Flames and Canucks

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Bouwmeester>Mitchell

Regehr>Edler

Phaneuf>Ehrhoff

Sarich=Bieksa

GiordanoPardy>O'Brien

Stralman>Lukowich

Your comparisons are way off.

why wouldn't you compare shut-downn vs. shut-down, ect...?

Bouwmeester vs. Edler

Phanuef vs. Bieksa

Regeher vs. Mitchell

Sarich vs. Ehrhoff

Giordanno vs. Schneider

Pardy vs. O'Brien

Stralman vs. Lukowich

in which case...

Bouwmeester >/= Edler

Phanuef > Bieksa

Regeher > Mitchell

Sarich < Ehrhoff

Giordanno < Schneider

Pardy < O'Brien

Stralman < Lukowich

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[quote name='ren1 wrote:


Hockey_Canada1 wrote:

ren1 wrote:

Hockey_Canada1']Still? When was it ever the best?

When we signed Bouwmeester. Seems everyone outside Vancouver thinks the same thing. Maybe they should've asked some Canucks fans what they think first?

Like I said, hockey is not played in July. They haven't been the best because there is nothing to be the best of.

Then why are you asking to compare D-cores? If you ask me to compare now, I (and most of the rest of the hockey world) will say that ours is still better. If you want to wait for the season, don't bring it up and imply that yours is now on par with ours. What am I missing here?

Am I not allowed to argue against your self-proclamation of best in the league?

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[quote name='littlereddevil wrote:


ren1 wrote:

Hockey_Canada1']shall we compare defensive cores now?
:lol:

For sure!

Ours is still the best in the league, and as an added bonus it doesn't bring us $3 million over the cap.

Exactly. Gillis hasn't been able to manage the cap efficiently, and look what he has.

An inconsistent defensemen who is way over-payed (O'Brien), another inconsistent defensemen who plays poorly in his own end (Ehrhoff, who was

-12 last season), two cripples who are bound to get injured (Schneider and Salo), a bunch of pylons (Rome and Nycholat), another player who

*gasp* plays poorly in his own end (Bieksa, who was -4 last season), an overrated shutdown defenseman (Mitchell, who according to Canucks fans

should be on Team Canada) and mabye two proven NHL defensemen (Lukowich and Edler).....

In other words Gillis has overspent on defense.

So now we're overpaying for our defense..... puhhleezze!

  

LOL. I can play the same game.

Overpaid, overrated = Bouwmeester, Phanuef., Regehr

pylon = Sarich, Pardy

inconsistent, can't play in his own end = Giordano

aren't I clever?

But let's analyze who can't manage the cap effectively. The GM who is over the cap in August and has over a month to sort it out with 9 NHL defencemen or a GM who's team is forced to play with 17 players in the most crucial point in the season because of cap issues.

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[quote name='ren1 wrote:


Hockey_Canada1']Still? When was it ever the best?

When we signed Bouwmeester. Seems everyone outside Vancouver thinks the same thing. Maybe they should've asked some Canucks fans what they think first?

Like I said, hockey is not played in July. They haven't been the best because there is nothing to be the best of.

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[quote name='ren1 wrote:


Hockey_Canada1']shall we compare defensive cores now?
:lol:

For sure!

Ours is still the best in the league, and as an added bonus it doesn't bring us $3 million over the cap.

Still? When was it ever the best? Don't forget, hockey isn't played in July. :lol:

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It's a good thing we are able to now negotiate from a position of strength. I hope to see Salo as the odd man out.

Let's say, for argument's sake he is.

Mitchell - Edler

Ehrhoff - Bieksa

Schneider - O'Brien

Lukowich

vs.

Bouwmeester - Regehr

Phanuef - Sarich

Giordano - Pardy

Pelech?

I think it's a case of top-end talent vs. balance all the way through.

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[quote name='DL44 wrote:


Codes']

And if you think that B. Sutter is going to coach anything like Keenan, then...I don't know what to say.

Aucoin is an elite Pker... Aucoin is the greatest PK asset the Flames have... and now Sutter is gonna coach like Keenan... jeez.

So much for having a logical conversation...
anything other opinion people which to credit me with....

Iginla winning the Selke was your idea, wasn't it.

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But in all honesty, if Mitchell was so similar in skill to Regehr, then you wouldn't be seeing such disparity between the two in the eyes of hockey experts.
What is this great disparity? Where does that come from? Who's to say that Mitchell wasn't the next guy on the list for experienced shutdown defencemen?

And I don't buy that Marc Staal and Brent Seabrook were selected because they are better options, but rather give them a little camp experience for future olympics (if NHL players are included).

Anyways, I don't see any experts expressing a great disperity between Regehr and Mitchell. I concede that Regehr has a slight edge, but they are in the same league.

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I thought the canucks took it to the CBJ pretty much the whole game...

There were clearly two different teams on the ice for the Canucks: one with Luongo in net and one after he got pulled.  The Canucks didn't come on until after the goalie change. The Canucks were all over the ice in the 3rd period, no question about that and could've probably won the game on one period of play.

They seem like the reverse of the Flames.  The Flames come out hard and then hang on for dear life for the win.  The Canucks come out easy, then step on the gas pedal racing against time.

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Blue Jackets 5 Canucks 3,

1st Period

Canucks came out flat and were lucky to be tied 1-1 after the first period.  It should've been like 2-0 for the Jackets after one.  The Jackets, though mostly kept to the outside, took the play to the Canucks 5-on-5 spending most of the first period buzzing around Luongo.  Canucks scored on virtually their only chance of the period.  I'm still left wondering what Bieksa was doing on the Vermette goal... kind funny from my perspective though.

2nd Period

Second period began where the first period left off and the Jackets were finally rewarded with goals in bunches.  Albiet, bad goals too.  Luongo caught guessing pass on the Huselius goal.  He mis-plays a knuckle ball from Klesla.  Then, the Filatov goal looked kind of effortless as Luongo didn't get down quick enough. 

Then, after the goalie change, the Canucks woke up and looked like a completely different team.

3rd Period

A combination of the Jackets defending the lead and the Canucks desperate to score had virtually the entire period played in the Jackets zone.  The Canucks were suddenly fast and full of energy.  They were cycling well, first to loose pucks, won all the battles, etc. And, if it wasn't for some missed chances and great Mason saves, the Canucks should've tied the game, if not taken the lead.  Burrows point blank in the slot fans once and misses the net in another attempt.

After the game, they said the Canucks fired nearly 84 shots at the net but only 43 got there.  At least 50 must've been in the 3rd period.  40 saves by Mason but the game was won by the Jackets on Canucks mis-chances.

--

Does this game sound familiar?  Sounds awfully like the first game against the Flames...  they came out flat, fell behind by a big margin, then had to play catch-up only to fall just short.  Is this a big concern for Canucks fans moving forward?

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I'm actually pretty happy about how this one went after the 1st. Like People's opinion about the flames losing... hopefully this has the same effect for the canucks... A little more focus is required going forward.

anyways...

Um with a returning coach, it's different.  I don't think losing early on will have the same effect on the Canucks as it will with the Flames since the Canucks are already acquainted with AV.  Most of the players are returning from last season so they need to win early and often to retain that trust and commitment they built from seasons ago.  The Canucks should already have learned lessons from before.

The Flames have excuses to lose and not execute properly.

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Like DL44 said, Junior players are not allowed to be called up... but until their Junior team is eliminated from playoffs.

I don't consider this a colossal failure on Hodgson's part but for sure it's disappointing. Just another step in the building process I think. It sucks for him though. He's not good enough for the NHL but there's nothing to gain from another year in the CHL. He could really benefit from AHL action but he's not old enough.

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I'm not going to write off the Canucks on repeating as Division champs just yet. Roster wise, both the Flames and Canucks stack up well with the Flames having a slight edge on the blueline.

The Canucks however, have one thing the Flames don't and that's familiarity with their system. They've played AV hockey for the past 3 or 4 seasons and have developed a winning consistency whereas nobody knows how the Flames are going to react to Brent Sutter hockey. The core of the Flames have gone from a very defensive system to an all out offensive one and now back to some form of hybrid.

I expect the Canucks to have a strong October and the Flames to be in for a rough start as they adjust and learn the new X's and O's. I just hope the Canucks don't put too much distance between themselves and the rest of the teams too early into the season. It will likely be a reverse situation for both teams than last season with the Canucks leading the division for most of the season and then the Flames mounting a strong push from January onward.

From what i remember, Brent Sutter wasn't doing too well with the Devils the first few months of his tenure there. The Devils were one of the worst teams in the East at one point two seasons ago.

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[quote name='CehNehDeh wrote:


TheAce wrote:

LewisD91']Any canucks fans worried that you have to play Detroit in the first round? Almost a week ago it looked like it was gonna be van vs col. Then the wings just turned it on. Plus Howard's looking real good down the stretch. That will be one hell of a series.

I think anyone who wouldnt be worried is a liar...... They still have a chance to pass Nashville but the Preds arent much easier. It should be a good series if it is Wings vs Canucks......

Ehrhoff left the last nights game early and may have a sprained knee..... not a good sign being down 2 of your top D-men in the playoffs.....

Exactly. I thought I had posted pretty much the same thing when that Q was posed. Not only are the Wings HOT and perennial winners but we have the HUGE question mark that is Roberto Luongo. Worst season by FAR in a Canucks uni....ughh

I'm going to pray for the near impossible and hope that Luongo has a 180 degree turnaround.

If Luongo is a question mark Howard's gotta be one too. He's been pretty outstanding but he could come back down to earth. Kinda like Anderson in Colorado. I know its unlikely but if I've learned one thing as a flames fan its that other teams like to suck when I'm watching them play the canucks in the postseason.

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Any canucks fans worried that you have to play Detroit in the first round? Almost a week ago it looked like it was gonna be van vs col. Then the wings just turned it on. Plus Howard's looking real good down the stretch. That will be one hell of a series.

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[quote name='The_Don wrote:


LewisD91']If I were a canucks fan I'd be weary of the flames, but that's just me. I tend to play worst case scenarios in my mind. Since I'm a flames fan though I see this losing streak going to 24 games.

It's weird though ain't it? It was almost this exact time last season that the canucks were on their 8 game losing skid and the flames were top of the division fighting for 2nd spot in the west. Then Jokinen came. Ever since then we haven't been that same team. I remember that time last year, while of the flames fans were laying into the nucks I knew there would be a turn of the tables.

I specifically remember Murray going on and on about how the Canucks won't make the playoffs, might as well trade the Sedins, ect. and I just kept saying "I am not worried, they will pull through before the season is over". My advice is keep hope a love, no matter what. Because if you give up and they do end of making a big run, you don't feel quite right knowing you gave up on them. Always keep hope alive.

At this point in time I just want them to win a playoff series. I don't expect much from them anymore, I don't care where they are between 1st and 8th come playoff time. We don't have a 1st round draft pick this year(yet), usually when we get into the playoffs and flop in the first round(everyseason) I regret us making the playoffs and not getting a good draft pick instead but I won't have that feeling if we do that this year. 

I guess you could say 30 games is alot of hockey left to be played....I'm just gonna wait and see what happens at the trade deadline.

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If I were a canucks fan I'd be weary of the flames, but that's just me. I tend to play worst case scenarios in my mind. Since I'm a flames fan though I see this losing streak going to 24 games.

It's weird though ain't it? It was almost this exact time last season that the canucks were on their 8 game losing skid and the flames were top of the division fighting for 2nd spot in the west. Then Jokinen came. Ever since then we haven't been that same team. I remember that time last year, while of the flames fans were laying into the nucks I knew there would be a turn of the tables.

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I think flames fans have always been chirping about how great Kipper is but his stats dont reflect is becuase of the teams piss poor defence. So next season when we have argueable the most stacked D in the league and a defensive oriented coach, it's time for kipper to prove us all right.

Well last time Kipper had good defense infront of him he won the Vezina.

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this will be a breakdown of the two teams to see who has the edge in each catagory.  any input is appreciated. Also, if something i say is wrong, correct me (and by this, i mean stats not opinions--though i may adjust opinions based on ilumination on a few stats.  I really would like more insight on the Canucks prospects, for example.)

GOALTENDING:

Luongo and Kiprusoff are both widely considered to be in the upper echelon of the league's elite goaltenders.  Though postseason success has been elusive of late, Kiprusoff has led his team to the stanley cup final once, and then to the post season every year since (five consecutive seasons, four consecutive first round exits) while Luongo has led the canucks to the post season in two out of three seasons with the team, both times making it past the first round.  Both goalies have numerous Vezina Trophy nominations, though Kiprusoff has won the award once. Luongo's regular season stats have been far more consitent than Kiprusoff's, regularly finishing in the top five in sv% and GAA (the only exception being the 07-08 season, where the 'Nucks missed the postseason) While Kiprusoff has seen three seasons in decline (though the last one was an improvement).  The Canucks possess proven backups in Andrew Raycroft and Cory Schneider, while Curtis McElhinney may need to prove he can handle the grind of a full season (though he certainly won't play all that many games).

EDGE: Canucks

Defence:

The Canucks personel include shut-down dmen Willie Mitchel, and Alex Edler, offensive stars Christian Ehrhoff, Kevin Bieksa, and Mattieu Schneider, the mega-howitzer Sami Salo, and depth dmen Aaron Rome, Shane O'Brien, and Brad Lukowich

The Flames boast an impressive array of stars in Dion Phaneuf, Jay Bouwmeester, and Robyn Regehr, the three of them possessing three different styles ranging from flashy offensive gem, to offensively stunted shut-down machine, and everything between (J-Bo).  The lower group consists of defensive minded (and the oldest/most experienced one) Cory Sarich, the stay-at-home Adam Pardy, offensive Mark Giordano, and the more depth oriented Anton Stralman, Matt Pelech, and Staffan Kronwall.

The top three alone of the Flames are enough to put this one in the bag, as anyone who checks out the individual matchups will agree (Regehr vs Mitchel, Phaneuf vs Ehrhoff, Bouwmeester vs Edler)

EDGE: Flames

Offence:

The Canucks go as far as the Sedin twins can carry them.  their deadly cycle game, pinpoint passing and scarily accurate wrist shots can result in prolific goal scoring.  The two not only have chemistry with each other, but also possess a repore with at least one of the team's right wingers (Burrows) and will likely carry this chemistry to fellow Swede Mikael Samuelsson.

The Flames possess proven 30 goalscorers in Jarome Iginla, Olli Jokinen, and Daymond Langkow, and two other players who could possibly break that barrier in Rene Bourque (who would have if not for missing 24 games due to a freak injury. He was 9 goals short.) and David Moss.  Iginla and Jokinen also represent the only 90 point players on either team (though Demitra did come close one year, and Daniel Sedin could possibly do it, if the stars align in just the right way--Perhaps Henrik if he could just score more goals.) Though there is no proven chemistry between Iginla and Jokinen (flames fans take solace in that it was much the same situation with Cammalleri) there is proven tandems elsewhere in the roster--Bourque, Langkow, Moss for instance-- and there were flashes of brilliance from Iginla and Jokinen--especially when combined with Curtis Glencross on the left wing. The only proven 30-goal man in the 'Nucks roster is Daniel Sedin (Demitra has done it too, but not in the last 5 seasons--and he's 34, besides)

EDGE: Flames

Prospects:

Comparing the top forward prospects for each team (Vancouver's Cody Hodgeson and Jordan Schroeder against Calgary's Mikael Backlund and Greg Nemisz) we see far more size on the flames side.  Hodgeson perhaps possesses more of the leadership skills that are in such demand these days (a future captain, perhaps?). Schroeder and Hodgeson both put up proliffic numbers in the WJC, though they played for stacked Canadian and American teams.  Greg Nemisz had a great season with the Windsor Spitfires of the ohl, Scoring 34 goals and 77 points in the regular season, and 20 points in 20 playoff games.  Mikael Backlund put up fantastic numbers with the Kelowna Rockets, scoring 12 goals and 18 assissts in 28 games in the whl, and putting up 13 goals and 10 assissts in 19 post season games, helping the Rockets win the league crown (interestingly, they lost the Memorial cup to Nemisz and the Spitfires) There is more youth on the Vancouver side, and the most nhl ready of these players is probably Hodgeson (this based on hear-say and conjecture).  Still, looking at the stock of defenders the Flames have piled up: Keith Aulie, T.J. Brodie, Keith Seabrook, Brett Palin, John Negrin, Tim Erixon, Brad Cole, and Gord Baldwin, i have to give it to the masters.

EDGE: Flames

THE SCORE: 3-1 for the FLAMES!!

GO FLAMES GO!!

3-1 for the Flames? More like 3-1 for the Canucks. In the offensivecategory, it seems like it's close, but I'd give the Canucks the slightedge. In the prospects category, it seems like you don't know muchabout the Canucks' prospects so let me educate you a bit. Sure, we don't have as many quality defensive prospects as you guys, but the Canucks' offensive prospectshave a higher ceiling/potential than your offensive prospects, and I believe Cory Schneider is still part of the organization, so the edge in goaltendingprospects go to the Canucks. So overall the edge in prospects goes tothe Canucks.

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I honestly don't see much of a comparison. Hodgson is a far more complete player, is a natural leader, extremely mature beyond his years, extremely cerebral and has dominated any level he has played at.

Not that I am taking anything away from Backlund. He should be a bright part of Calagry's future for years to come. But they are simply different players. It's like comparing Martin Havlat to Mike Richards.

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Possession = offense and defense.  the flame's system for the coming season will be based largely on puck possession, and players like Iginla and Jokinen love to shoot, and are both proven playmakers (kinda like the Sedin Twins... except they don't have any proven chemistry) Iggy and Olli did have chemistry, though they hit a cold streak at the same time.  You just had to watch the two of them work the puck around in the opposing zone in one of the few games they both played well, to know this

DL44, you are a Canucks fan, am i right in assuming this? What do you mean "lack of a threatening second line"? Bourque Langkow Moss/Dawes/Lundmark is far more threatening than any of the Canuck's lines (except the first one of course) To top it off, the third line (Boyd Conroy Dawes/Moss) is very underrated IMO

Obviously, i have Glencross on the top line, and as i have said numerous times, his speed opens the ice for the relatively slower Iginla and Jokinen. I see no glaring problems in the flames line up, though this is, of course, on paper.

Chemistry isn't something that can be proven in a few games. Who's to say they weren't just hot at the same time. I not saying they do or they don't, but they have yet to prove either. I am skeptical because often when you have two shooters on the same line without a designated playmaker you run into some problems. I would actually say they are the opposite of the Sedins. Iginla/Jokinen are both shooters who can pass, while both Sedins are playmakers who can score.

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I'm kind of getting sick of the Salo injury speculation. It isn't like the guy is physically unable to have a healthy season. If Connolly can do it, he can.

HF Northwest Poll (Canucks winning OMG!!)

http://hfboards.com/showthread.php?t=676384&page=7

He hasn't had an injury free season in 10. He played 75 games once, 70 games twice.

He is simply unable to last the grind of an 82 game season. If he were only 3 or 4 seasons into his career, I wouldn;t be so quick to say so. But it's been the same story for 10 years. He won't become more durable as he ages.

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^ The sad part is how they all say that Regehr's past his prime and has lost a step over Mitchell(even though, you know, Regehr's 28 and Mitchell's 3 years older...and Regehr has better career stats and all).

And the Canucks Board makes me laugh xD.

"OURDEFENSE CAN RACK UP 40 POINTS EACH, LOLOLOLOLOLOL."

"LUNGO IS BETTUR DEN KIPPUR!!11"

"C'mon guys, stop being homers".

"WE'LL SMOKE THEM LOLOLOLOLOLOL"

... I guess we'll have to see October 1st.

To be fair, we do have 5 defencemen that can reach 40 points.

Ehrhoff - 42 points last season

Bieksa - 43 last season, 42 in first full season.

Edler - 37 points last year in 2nd season

Salo - 3 times has averaged over .5ppg (82 games = 40+ points). Problem he has never played a full season.

Schneider - has done it 8 times.

Problem is, there isn't enough puck to go around, so someone's numbers are going to have to drop. My guess is Bieksa loses PP time and Salo misses a lot of injury time.

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