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Discussion & Debate Thread: Flames and Canucks

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[quote name='CehNehDeh wrote:


IgBoPhanKipReg wrote:

CehNehDeh']Awww, do you Flames not want to congratulate the Canucks on
another successful season?

Only a Canuck fan would equate a successful season with making the playoffs.

In my world, the only successful season results in a Stanley Cup and 29 other teams have unsuccessful seasons.

Isn't that the truth? ESPECIALLY after 40 years of futility. Thank god I can play the Vancouver Millionaires card!

  You could play that card, like the other tools who come here tooting their own horn. When in reality everyone knows the Canucks are amongst one of the least successful franchises in all sports history.

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[quote name='LewisD91 wrote:


CehNehDeh wrote:

TheAce']

I think anyone who wouldnt be worried is a liar...... They still have a chance to pass Nashville but the Preds arent much easier. It should be a good series if it is Wings vs Canucks......

Ehrhoff left the last nights game early and may have a sprained knee..... not a good sign being down 2 of your top D-men in the playoffs.....

Exactly. I thought I had posted pretty much the same thing when that Q was posed. Not only are the Wings HOT and perennial winners but we have the HUGE question mark that is Roberto Luongo. Worst season by FAR in a Canucks uni....ughh

I'm going to pray for the near impossible and hope that Luongo has a 180 degree turnaround.

If Luongo is a question mark Howard's gotta be one too. He's been pretty outstanding but he could come back down to earth. Kinda like Anderson in Colorado. I know its unlikely but if I've learned one thing as a flames fan its that other teams like to suck when I'm watching them play the canucks in the postseason.Difference being is Howard is backed up by a multi Cup winner, and one of the most experienced teams ever in front of him.

Luongo, not so much.

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[quote name='Chairman_Maouth wrote:


Kristian_Huselius wrote:

LewisD91']

If Luongo is a question mark Howard's gotta be one too. He's been pretty outstanding but he could come back down to earth. Kinda like Anderson in Colorado. I know its unlikely but if I've learned one thing as a flames fan its that other teams like to suck when I'm watching them play the canucks in the postseason.

Difference being is Howard is backed up by a multi Cup winner, and one of the most experienced teams ever in front of him.

Luongo, not so much.

Would you be comfortable having Osgood as a backup at this point in his career? If Lou gets rolling, I'd rather him and Ray over the other two.

Would I rather have Luongo and Raycroft? Well hard to say that I wouldn't. Of course they are the better tandem. I am merely pointing out that Howard won't be as much of a question mark as many think, because he is surrounded by probably the best group of guys you ever could be in his situation. Howard isn't better than Luongo, but if I am betting on who gets deeper into the playoffs, I would HAVE to put my money on Howard.

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[quote name='The_Don wrote:


Kristian_Huselius wrote:

Chairman_Maouth']Would you be comfortable having Osgood as a backup at this point in his career? If Lou gets rolling, I'd rather him and Ray over the other two.

Would I rather have Luongo and Raycroft? Well hard to say that I wouldn't. Of course they are the better tandem. I am merely pointing out that Howard won't be as much of a question mark as many think, because he is surrounded by probably the best group of guys you ever could be in his situation. Howard isn't better than Luongo, but if I am betting on who gets deeper into the playoffs, I would HAVE to put my money on Howard.

I think that is a different discussion. That is more which team will go further. We are talking strictly goalies here, without the other factors of the team in front of them. In which case I think Luongo has to above Howard.

No doubt true. Still the conversation goes that people are worried about Luongo and Howard's performance heading into the playoffs. Where as I said I wouldn't be as worried about Howard because of his team, had he been a Canuck, or Avalanche then I would reverse my point.

The original conversation was who should be most worried about their goaltending. I am thinking that Detroit is less worried than Vancouver is. Not only because of their experience, but because they have won with questionable goaltending before. I wouldn't debate who is the better goalie, because even as a Luongo hater I know the answer to that. I was only explaining my point of view that I would be less worried about Howard because of his team. Howard was even compared to Anderson in Colorado, which is also a false comparison as he isn't surrounded by near the support that Howard is. Lets face it there is no better place to play goal for right now than Detroit.

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[quote name='DL44 wrote:


littlereddevil']Are you aware that we will have Jokinen for a whole season? He'll get probably around 35 goals, which is pretty much replacing Cammalleri's totals.

Bouwmeester replaces Aucoin.

Dawes, Sjostrom and mabye Theo Fleury will replace Bertuzzi.

Goals won't be an issue for Calgary this season. They never have been.

  

Sorry devil... had to bump this one.

There are actually a lot of gems in this thread from both sides the Flames-Canuck debates pre-season.... feel free to bump your favorites.

  Wow keep digging up the past, lets find the posts where some Canucks fans were claiming Bernier was going to put up 70 points with the Sedins. Maybe we can find some good posts on how Luongo is the best goalie in the game while we are at it.

Or maybe we could find the posts where I claimed Luongo is single handedly responsible for every Canucks playoffs failure and predicted he would be once again. I should change my name to "The Future" because when it comes to Luongo it seems I can pretty much predict his future.

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[quote name='DL44 wrote:


Kristian_Huselius'] 
Nice to see the Canuck's fans boo 7uongo and the gang. Class acts right there. I can't ever remember Calgary getting boo'd off the ice in their own barn, let alone 3 games into the season.

 

Any regrets signing the contract 7? 

A beauty!  you were right about you taking shots at 7uongo....
But how hilarious is That as your initial post considering the number of times the flames were were booed off the ice after periods and games....

I don't think irony is the right term.... karma? maybe...  but you were just one of a few overall...  so maybe Karma on just a personal level?  I don't know...

Go ahead and read back...  some great stuff both ways... lots of ridiculous canuck opinions as well.

End of the day, this should prove to be a good lesson in Perspective, and big picture observation....

EDIT: getting the quote boxes right...

HA HA HA so funny I said that. eyes.gif So Calgary got boo'd off the ice a few times since I had said that, especially mired in a season ending 10 game slide (where they probably deserved a little verbal recourse). Still the fact remained despite the bad years I can't remember the Flames getting boo'd off the ice, yet you guys boo and litter the ice when your team merely wins a division. See the difference yet?

Karma? Didn't believe it, until you guys went down in a Legendarily Epic flaming pile of dog turds two years in a row. Now I am starting to become a believer.

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[quote name='DL44 wrote:


DL44 wrote:

The_Don']Tough loss for the Flames tonight. I wonder if KH was watching tonight...

Was waiting for that reference...
after the 2nd AND after the game...
No team is immune to such treatment from their fans after such a 'lackluster' performance.
Looking for a fanbase that has never done so is virtually impossible.
Trying to label a whole fanbase as classless because of it, will be deemed hypocritical everytime.... matter of time...

easy to write off K_H as just a random poster attempting to pile on... no biggie... he's busy eating crow now....
after reading a bit of the GDT, he was hoping for a 15-1 finish....I don't know how you hope for that and not expect a serenade of boo's from fans...
just another hypocritical anonymous poster. what can ya do...

On a thread related point... the poor Vancouver PK (21st ranked tonight) has surpassed the flames PK, which has dropped from 16th to 25th on the night ... (last yr's PK rank - 4th)

http://fans.flames.nhl.com/topic/26194/t/Discussion--Debate-Thread-Flames--Canucks--Inclusive.html?page=25

This is from NOVEMBER 19th.  How bad is it booing a Division LEADER at the time?  definitely worse than booing a team that used to be a division leader - the previous season.

Hell... you were eating crow back in Nov for flames booing, and you're eating crow again for the exact same post for stating it was during the streak.... funny stuff.... just gold actually.

reading back in this thread has really solid proof of how much of a 'quality' poster you have been.... 
I've only read  to the end of nov (just before the dive in december).... but there's just nothing of actual substance or quality actually contributing to any constructive discussion or debate whatsoever. the evidence is quite damning so far... main reason i rarely actually respond to your posts.

but overall... at the end of the day, your transparent posts have provided us with a lot of comedy. 

Look forward to your R083rt0 7u0n50 posts next yr........ who am i kidding... i mean over the summer... ok ok... later this week.
Why are you arguing with yourself?

And if anyone is transparent it is obviously you. You have apparently been taking shots at me all year long, and I never knew you existed until today. It is quite possible that I had responded to you previously. But at the same time I clump all you irritable, Canucks goggled, homers into two categories: Don, and all the other nameless, faceless trolls who come here when the chips are up, but vanish when the chips are down. Hey I was wrong in that case, and I didn't come posting like a tool trying to cover myself up. Its pretty funny how you guys have so little to hang your hat on. You have to dig up odd quotes, that some dude said on the internet to diss our team. Maybe you can shut your pie hole and sit around for another 40 years and hope your team can accomplish something worth while to brag about before going on the offense.

So really it doesn't matter where you came from, or what you have to say. I already know from you and others like you that Luongo is the best goalie in the world, Sedins/Burrows are the best line in hockey, Kesler is the best defensive player not playing defense, Raymond is the next coming of Gretzky, you would have won the Stanley Cup with Mitchell in the line up, and all the other repetitive nonsense that you guys all spiel all over the place. So unless you have something ELSE to say that you haven't already repeated a hundred thousand times, until it made me barf, take a hike.

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[quote name='DL44 wrote:


DL44 wrote:

The_Don']Tough loss for the Flames tonight. I wonder if KH was watching tonight...

Was waiting for that reference...
after the 2nd AND after the game...
No team is immune to such treatment from their fans after such a 'lackluster' performance.
Looking for a fanbase that has never done so is virtually impossible.
Trying to label a whole fanbase as classless because of it, will be deemed hypocritical everytime.... matter of time...

easy to write off K_H as just a random poster attempting to pile on... no biggie... he's busy eating crow now....
after reading a bit of the GDT, he was hoping for a 15-1 finish....I don't know how you hope for that and not expect a serenade of boo's from fans...
just another hypocritical anonymous poster. what can ya do...

On a thread related point... the poor Vancouver PK (21st ranked tonight) has surpassed the flames PK, which has dropped from 16th to 25th on the night ... (last yr's PK rank - 4th)

http://fans.flames.nhl.com/topic/26194/t/Discussion--Debate-Thread-Flames--Canucks--Inclusive.html?page=25

This is from NOVEMBER 19th.  How bad is it booing a Division LEADER at the time?  definitely worse than booing a team that used to be a division leader - the previous season.

Hell... you were eating crow back in Nov for flames booing, and you're eating crow again for the exact same post for stating it was during the streak.... funny stuff.... just gold actually.

reading back in this thread has really solid proof of how much of a 'quality' poster you have been.... 
I've only read  to the end of nov (just before the dive in december).... but there's just nothing of actual substance or quality actually contributing to any constructive discussion or debate whatsoever. the evidence is quite damning so far... main reason i rarely actually respond to your posts.

but overall... at the end of the day, your transparent posts have provided us with a lot of comedy. 

Look forward to your R083rt0 7u0n50 posts next yr........ who am i kidding... i mean over the summer... ok ok... later this week.
Why are you arguing with yourself?

And if anyone is transparent it is obviously you. You have apparently been taking shots at me all year long, and I never knew you existed until today. It is quite possible that I had responded to you the same but I clump all you irritable, Canucks goggled, homers into two categories: Don, and all the other nameless, faceless trolls who come here when the chip are up, but vanish when the chips are down.

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[quote name='DL44 wrote:


Kristian_Huselius']

 I really hope the canucks improve as the season goes on. There is no fun in a one-sided rivalry.

bet he didn't hope for that much of swing...

Wow this is possibly the worst post of all time. Trying to validate me as a troll? This is a message board for MY TEAM. Get it straight the troll here is anyone NOT cheering for the Flames. Your the one digging up material poking fun at Flames fans on a Flames message board.

And if you want to see my opinion of the Flames for next season, read the Flames Talk forum. However you'd probably rather sit here and dig up some old quotes about how someone misjudged what would happen to the Canucks this season.

Also I don't know where you get off thinking the Canucks have had it better than the Flames have. I guess some Canucks fans measure success in weird ways that no one else can understand.

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[quote name='DL44 wrote:


Kristian_Huselius']

Wow this is possibly the worst post of all time. 
someone oblivious to his own work...laugh.gif
ok, ok no more validating... starting......... NOW.
Ignore me? I don't think you can. I mean you come here after a devastating loss for your team and try to drum up a fight, with absolutely nothing to talk about. If I didn't know any better I would say your sweet on me. I mean I am flattered, and I understand what your going through. Still other than not swinging on that side of the plate, if you get my drift, I make it a rule not to date Canucks fan. Sorry pal.

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Luongo will suck again, like I always call, and like he always does.

Ballard will attempt to behead him at least 3 times.

As for Calgary, they are at the tail end of the Iginla Era. The only question is can Dutter, or whoever the next GM is pending failed experiment after experiment, win the Cup for Iggy in Calgary? Or will he have to go to Detroit to win it? Sadly I see a Lanny McDonald esque Cup win in a diminished role.

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The Canucks trailed the Flames by like 10 points with a month to go last season and ended up being the Division Champs......Maybe the Flames just saving the best to the last like the Canucks last season?????  Maybe the Flames just want to Canucks to taste the feeling of giving up the Division title in the last month of the season?????  All the experts are saying that the Canucks and the Flames will be battling for the NW title till the end.........Lets see what happens....

The Canucks won tonight and the Flames must win on Sat against the Ducks to keep pace.......

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To properly compare, you have to weight their contributions by ice time and key situations.  In other words, the top 4 are the most important because they account for about 50 minutes a game.  To use your comparisons, Hockey_Canada1, when considered by ice time:

Bouwmeester is SUBSTANTIALLY better than Edler.  I mean, come on seriously, we are not talking about similar players here.  JBo is widely regarded as one of the top 5 defensemen in the league.  Even if he were playing for the Leafs, Edler would not be considered top 20 by anyone.

Regehr vs. Mitchell... don't ask Calgary fans, ask everyone east of Kelowna, Regehr is probably the best shut down defenseman in the NHL.  Mitchell's name comes up, um... NEVER in the conversation.  But Mitchell did look good at the Team Canada camp this week!

Phaneuf vs. Erhoff: No one criticized Phaneuf's play last year more than me.  However, he will be put in much better situations this year and his old Jr coach will get him re-focused on what he does well.  Again, there is simply no contest here.  Imagine putting Gillis and Sutter in a room and offering the two of them a trade straight-up, Phaneuf for Erhoff... which one do you think would fall off his chair laughing?

Sarich vs. Bieksa: I like them both and would welcome either as my 4th defenseman.  Call it a tie (though Bieksa seems to be hurt a lot more).

Both teams have lots of depth behind the top 4 so we will call that a draw as well. 

But seriously, there is a reason why there were 3 Flames dmen at the Olympic camp and no Nucks.  There is simply no comparison here.  The best thing the Nuck D has going for it is Luongo and when he was hurt last year, I don't recall anyone remarking about how great any of the dmen were.

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Mitchell's name comes up all the time when people are talking about the best shutdown defenceman in the game. He also isn't scared of points.

Stop the tack-tack comparisons. They're stupidly biased, and most of you are leaving out Salo anyway. Look at both defences as a whole.

Bouwmeester-Phaneuf

Regehr-Sarich

Giordano-Pardy

Pelech-Stralman

Salo-Mitchell

Ehrhoff-Edler

Bieksa-O'Brien

Schneider-Lukowich

Obviously top end talent is in favour of the Flames, but depth is in favour of the Canucks. Both very strong d-corps, and both teams should be very happy.

Mitchell's name comes up all the time?  Maybe on Vancouver radio shows.

I only used those comparisons because they were posted by a nucks fan.  

To ignore top end talent and say overall depth is more important is a bad argument.  That's like saying Crosby and Malkin may be a better 1-2 punch on centre, but we have more depth.  Who cares?  The top two guys get the ice time and impact the game.  

  

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What I meant was: if there is a big difference between the impact players, who cares about the depth?  I go back to the example I started with:  Who cares if Van's 3rd and 4th centres are better than Pitt's?  The impact guys, C and M, are so far ahead that the 'depth' becomes irrelevent.

Besides, I disagree with your opinion on the depth guys.  Bieksa is the best of the guys listed but if he is there, you are putting Salo in the top four, which I believe only extends the gap between the top 4s.  Beyond that, there is little difference in second 4.  Stralman probably has the most upside on that list, and you didn't even mention Kronwall who is at least comparable to Lukowich.

In other words, we could argue all day about guys 5-10, but again, it is the impact players who matter the most and, again, there is no comparison.

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Props to the Canucks on beating the Hawks last night. But it should be noted that they were up against a team that was playing its 5th game in 8 nights on the road. Makes a big difference. The Canucks did take advantage of the situation though, so they deserve credit for that. 

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Both the Habs and Sens did us huge favors. Now we have to reciprocate and take advantage by winning some games before the break. If we're still six points off the division lead by the break I'll be ecstatic, considering our recent losing streak. 

Anyway, if the NHL were to relocate a team to Canada, I would ideally prefer somewhere in the GTA. If New York can support three teams and LA two, then Toronto can easily support 4 or 5 NHL teams. They should have at least two, the next one being out in the Vaughn area. I don't like the whole Golden Horseshoe idea. It's freaking ugly and everything is so spread out. 

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1978 NHL Entry Draft

5. Mike Gillis

15. Steve Tambellini

179. Darryl Sutter

Chalk up another point for us.

Yes cause that is relevant to how good they are as a GM. eyes.gif

Why dont you look at how many SCF each has taken their team to, or consecutive playoff appearances.

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Bouwmeester >/= Edler

Phanuef > Bieksa

Regeher > Mitchell

Sarich < Ehrhoff

Giordanno < Schneider

Pardy < O'Brien

Stralman < Lukowich

1) Bouwmeester is a way better all round player then Edler, that is why your team tried hard at the trade deadline to get him.

2) Sarich and Ehrhoff dont play similar games if your trying to compare defensemen. Sarich is better defensively and Ehrhoff is better offensively so they would be tied.

3) I would take Giordano over Schneider. Gio is faster and can play decent 5 on 5. Schneider is slow, injury prone, solid PP guy but bad in his own zone at this point.

4) Id take Pardy over O'Brien for 1/3 of the salary for a bottom paired defenseman.

5) Id take Stralman over Lukowich. More potential and 50% cheaper. 

6) You forgot to add that you have Salo and are over the cap by 3mil. Even if you move Salo for a bag of pucks you would still need to move another body to be comfortably under the cap.

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