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Discussion & Debate Thread: Flames and Canucks

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I really dont see how you can compare the Flames and Canucks defense. In a 60 minute game you are going to see Bouwmeester out there for 25-30min a game and Regehr out there for 20-30min a game. This means that you will have a star defenseman out there for almost the entire game. The Canucks do not have a defenseman to match what either one of them brings to the game. Then you add Phaneuf who has the ability to be a factor on the ice as well. Yes the Canucks have more depth and in the event of injuries have similar skill set players with the ability to step up, but they do not have a defenseman who can go out and set the tone on what is going to happen on the ice, the Flames have 2 and sometimes 3 defensemen that can do that. The Flames top 4 is better then the Canucks top 4. You are going to see the Flames top 4 on the ice for 50+ minutes a game. The bottom 2 defensemen are going to see limited minutes which will pretty much negate the fact that the Canucks have a better bottom 2.

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[quote name=TheAce]

A couple things here..... The gap of 20-30 mins a game for Regehr is a huge gap. Last year he was 3rd on the team with an average of 21 mins a game, the year before was 21:20 and the year before that he was 3rd again with 21:54.  Players like aucoin and Hamrlik were averaging more time in those years. Why would an addition of a better D-man increase his time an extra 9 mins over his career average?

   All depends on how many penalties are in the game. If the Flames take a lot of penalties then he is going to get increased time because he is our best shutdown defenseman. If there is a lot of 5 on 5 or PP time then he loses ice time.

You go on to say that Vancouver doesnt have a D-man that can match either of those players. Atleast a few honest flame fans have admitted that ever since Mitchell started playing against Iginla, he has been shut down pretty nicely. I dont think you can say the same about Regehr with the Sedins. In fact im not sure if there is a team that the Sedins play better against than Calgary. And before you say that there are 2 of them so how can Regehr shut 2 players down, isnt the critizism that the Sedins cant play without each other? So if Regehr was able to shut one of them down, then the other should be useless without him.

I never said Mitchell wasnt a good defenseman or shutdown player. He is however not at the same level as Regehr. Regehr in my mind would be in the top 3 in the league, Mitchell would be in the top 10. Yes the Sedins play well against the Flames. But that has a lot to do with the system they play and the lack of system the Flames have had the past 3 years. With a smart defensive system that Sutter hopefully brings in this year they will be less dominate then they usually are.

Ive admitted before that Bouwmeester is a very good player. I think someone would be foolish to say otherwise, but at the same time I dont think he is a Lidstrom/Chara type player. He averages 40 points a year and is a career minus player. I believe he is better defensively that his stats would say but I wouldnt say he dominant. I think most canuck fans underestimate him whether it be out of bitterness that we never signed him or that he signed with our biggest rival but I think Calgary fans overestimate what he will bring to your team much like when you got Jokinen, Tanguay, Amonte.
I am only expecting around 40-50 points from Bouwmeester this year. What he brings to the Flames is smooth skaking and the ability to make that first stick to stick pass out of the zone. The Flames have for the longest time played a dump and chase type game into the offensive zone because they lacked the defenseman that could bring the puck up and make a smart pass that actually hits its target. He can also play 30 minutes in any position and is sound defensively. I dont expect him to score 30 goals or lead the league in plus / minus . I do believe that he is by far the best all round defenseman on either team and one of the best in the league.

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The Flames total O shouldn't drop too much... but the realistic expectation is some sort of drop.

Which should be canceled out by a drop in GA. No difference in winning a game 4-3 then winning it 3-2.

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[quote name='The_Don wrote:


Zirakzigil wrote:

DL44']

The Flames total O shouldn't drop too much... but the realistic expectation is some sort of drop.

Which should be canceled out by a drop in GA. No difference in winning a game 4-3 then winning it 3-2.

Which leads to another uncertainty. Is Kipper really on the decline or is he simply a product of the talent and/or system in front of him?Even if he is on the decline, with a defensive system and a stronger defense in front of him the GA per game should go down.

  

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Judging from your logo, I'm guessing you're a flames' fan, so you must have seen Moss play at some point.  Moss shoots right, pay no attention to how he's listed.

And you're wrong, Dawes had a great game, Langkow was the one on that line who was invisible.

And Iginla wasn't the Flames' worst player.  Kronwall was.  Iginla was second.

And as for Boyd, it was more like 10 cm, not 10 feet.  He was good, if not spectacular.

  

Langkow was not invisible. He played well, better then I thought he would in fact with all the time he missed at the end of last year with hand injuries. It doesnt take much to throw off your accuracy and he was fine. 

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The problem with the whole situation is that its Burrows word against Augers word. Im not going to get into who is right and who is wrong but the fact of the matter is that the NHL has to side with their refs every time its a players word against a refs. The refs have a thankless job and do it just for the love of the game, there is no glory in it for them. I think the NHL got it right. They fined Burrows because he did cross a line in the way he handled things and they investigated the event to see if there was any solid proof that there was deliberate tampering by a ref.

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[quote name='The_Don wrote:


Zirakzigil']The problem with the whole situation is that its Burrows word against Augers word. Im not going to get into who is right and who is wrong but the fact of the matter is that the NHL has to side with their refs every time its a players word against a refs. The refs have a thankless job and do it just for the love of the game, there is no glory in it for them. I think the NHL got it right. They fined Burrows because he did cross a line in the way he handled things and they investigated the event to see if there was any solid proof that there was deliberate tampering by a ref.

Did they investigate though? Do we know the extent of the investigation? I very well could have been a call to Auger asking him "Did you say what Burrows said you said? No? Ok then." And that was probably it. It remains one word against another, and the little investigation that could have happened in less than 24 hours doesn't mean anything. It was all for show for the NHL to say they did all they could.

How much investigation can you do when its word against word? They probably looked at the tapes and if the tapes showed someone close to them when this supposedly happened they probably asked them as well. That only takes a few phone calls and a couple of hours.

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1. Ask the crew he worked with that night (other ref and linesman) if he said anything negative about Burrows or the previous incident.

2. Follow-up interview with Burrows and Auger to get as much info as possible

3. Review Auger's track record. Look at the several past incidents he has had (they are there).

I am no Investigator type, I am sure there are a lot of things that could be looked at. I just got the impression that the league did as little as possible to avoid criticism on the matter.

Again how long does that take? Not very long. The NHL wanted this over fast so that everyone could move on. Your just not going to be happy until Auger is punished. 

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[quote name='The_Don wrote:


hkiitay']I was looking over some of the older posts, and something occured to me.

There was a lot of talk that the 'Nucks had more 40 point worthy defencemen than the Flames...

Well, the Flames have more 60 point worthy defenders than the Canucks

Flames: Phaneuf

Canucks: No one (Schneider has come close a few times in the past--with the Red-Wings.  Makes you wonder how many points Phaneuf would get on that team?)

How many 70 assist forwards?

Canucks: Henrik

Flames: no one

How many 25 goal, 150 PIM guys?

Canucks: Burrows

Flames: No one

What does this mean? A whole lot of nothing.Ahahah....

It shows that Henrik can get 70 assists and Burrows can go 150 PIM with 25 goals in a season.....

Lol, smart A*S I am being, no?

Joking around.

Don't really know.

  

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How about Division titles.

Mike Gillis - 100%

Or number of consecutive playoff appearances?

Gillis - 1

Sutter - 5

Just thought I would join in tongue.gif

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[quote name='TheAce wrote:


DL44 wrote:

TheAce']Interesting scheduling notes...... Vancouver has a 5 game, 2- 4 game and a 14 game road schedule. Calgary's longest road trip is 3 games and they do this 4 times. Vancouver also plays Calgary twice when they are on the back end of consecutive games whereas Calgary starts there back to back games against Vancouver but dont have to play back to back against them.

If the 14 game road trip wasnt bad enough, they have 3 back to back series during that stretch. For a team that already battles injuries, this wont help!

Big advantage for Calgary when it comes to schedules.......

Actually when it comes to schedules, Vancouver actually has a significant advantage over Calgary this yr...
Calgary is the highest travelling team in the league.. Vancouver doesn't even crack the top 5 this yr! a list they have routinely topped yr after yr.
Vancouver does have the 14 gamer... but it broken up into 2 sevens...  in terms of travel overall, Gillis met with the league and has minimized his travel by making the away schedule more concise - for example... (I think) 2 back to backs in LA where we visit both Ana and LA (no travel)... as well as being at home for a few back-to backs unlike calgary... the back-to-back comparison was earlier in the thread where it showed van's advantage.

Despite the facts you've pointed out in the schedules... our east coast trips are much better.... no more NY, Minny, Pitt trips.. 
Another Gillis offseason/off-ice priority that will benefit the canucks going forward.... like personal chefs, personal trainers, sleep studies, fatigue studies, hockey's version of moneyball, etc.... 
the guy is an innovator.... and it's paying dividends (or it will).

Calgary has a higher travelling schedule because there road trips are broken up in 3's. But if you take a look at there overall schedule, I'd probably take there's. There road trips are set up the same way ( Montreal, Buffalo, Toronto) home ( Detroit, Columbus, Nashville) . The travel between those cities are very minimal and its only 3 games then back home. 7 game road trips are horrible even if it has a break. Especially considering we will have 8 players playing big roles during the Olympics.

I know Gillis spoke to the league and has brought in many people to help ease things with players. He is getting a good reputation and is bringing some class to Vancouver. Maybe its because of our road trips that he decided to bring in the extra d-men..... especially knowing that a few of them are injury prone

Who would the 8 players involved in the Olympics be? Sedins(sweden), Luongo(Canada), Demitra(Slovakia), Ehrhoff(Germany, Samuelsson(Sweden) and?

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I've gotta feeling. woohoo. That tonight's gonna be a good night. That tonight's gonna be a good night.

Oh wait, I got carried away with I've gotta feeling. I have a feeling that Regehr and Phaneuf are getting used to each other and obviously Sutter is liking (or not minding) what he is seeing in practice and wanting to see them be successful in the real game scenario. Hence giving them another game (or a few) together.

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^Yeah that was a pretty sad thing for a canucks fan to do. But I am sure, there would be such fans for every team, who would drop to such lows to help their team. Canucks might have more of these type of fans, but I am sure a few flames supporters are also capable of falling to such levels.

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Discuss various topics....

Whenever a random thread gets hijacked.... just paste a link to this thread in it.

Summer is out right now, so we'll probably be linking this thread a lot if the mods allow for it...

D vs D - Will Bouwmeeter/Sutter turn around the flames D and actually make it better than Vancouver's? Which one is deeper?

Kipper vs Luongo - which one's more over paid?

Raymond vs Boyd - Part 2? anyone?

Top 6 vs Top 6 - another Soft Euro added vs and team that's loss Cammi and Bert

Coach vs Coach

Who'll have a better PP

Who has a harder shot JBo, Phaneuf or Edler and Salo

Which backup will see more games

Who wins the division this yr

etc etc... whatever else people wish to smack about...

-------------------

And the one i'm starting this thread off with Bourque vs Kesler a statistical breakdown..

I'm not really interested in the comparison between Kesler vs. Bourque since it results in comparing a winger and a center. When it comes right down to it, we can compare Kesler to Bourque as they are equivalent talent / pay grade players but in the lineup Kesler's opposite is Langkow and Langkow is the better player hands down.

A) Flames top 6 forwards and scoring. I think our top 6 scoring can be very similar to last year's as far as scoring is concerned.

1) Yes, we lose Cammi and that is representing 39 goals from last season. We gain Jokinen though for a whole season and while he did represent 8 goals in the short time he was with us last season, the main thing is how he will perform this year with a full season as a Flame. If he returns to '07 form and puts up 90 points, most of us will be saying "Camm-who?".

2) Bertuzzi is being replaced by Moss. He should be easily able to put up 15+ goals and aim for 44 points since that is only really a 4 point increase from last season.

3) Lombardi is replaced by Glencross. Their point totals from last season are already comparable.

-----------------------------------------------

B) Flames bottom 6 forwards and scoring. I think we are going to see a bit of a downgrade in scoring depth here.

1) Boyd needs to get a chance to step up here. Regardless of which line he ends up on he needs to progress from his 11g/11a season.

2) Nystrom needs to follow suit and step up as well. I assume he will be promoted to the third line which means more minutes and more time to try to score.

3) Primeau needs to stay healthy, get 5-10 goals and help our other new fourth line players do the same.

-----------------------------------------------

Flames and being scored on.

From the perspective of the forwards I think most fans here think that with Bertuzzi gone and Cammalleri as well to a degree, we are going to be stronger defensively. We lost a step when we traded Lombari but Jokinen has been pretty good in the defensive zone and we now have added Shoestrings (Sjostrom) to the mix who is supposedly going to add another PK / shutdown forward.

Defensively we have lost Aucoin and Vandermeer who were both pretty heavily criticized last season. Aucoin needed to be carried defensively by Regehr and Vandermeer was slow (but I thought he was pretty solid). Replace Vandermeer with Pardy and Aucoin with Bouwmeester and really the only problem is that all but one of our defenders is a left handed shot. Defensively though I expect that we are going to be faster and smarter simply through the addition of Bouwmeester.

Finally the Brent Sutter effect. Bringing in a new head coach and sending Keenan packing is going to have a pretty profound change on the team. I think the best way to try to measure the trend of where we expect the Flames to change would be to look at the http://forum.calgaryflames.com/index.php?s=&showtopic=11112&view=findpost&p=377961' target="_blank">final results of the Flames vs. Canucks bet[/post] from last season and factor in how the Devils did in comparison to see the kind of results Sutter will go for.

For simplicity and time I am going to cut out some of the scoring stats.

back on topic

@ 76 games...

Team Overall Seed 5, 3, (Devils 3)

Team Wins 43, 42, (Devils 51)

Goals For 3.14, 3.00, (Devils 2.90)

Goals Against 3.03, 2.60, (Devils 2.52)

Team +/- +3, +32, (Devils +38)

PP % 18.3, 19.0, (Devils 18.9)

PK % 83.3, 81.0, (Devils 79.9)

PP Goals 61, 63, (Devils 58)

SH Goals 6, 7, (Devils 12)

Faceoff % 51.2, 51.4, (Devils 51.3)

Team Save % .898, .911, (Devils .914)

Shots on Goal 32.0, 28.3, (Devils 32.9)

Shots on Goal Against 29.8, 29.2 , (Devils 29.5)

Total Times Shorthanded (Lower the better) 20th, 26th, (Devils 9th)

Shootout Win% .600 (3-2), .333 (3-7), (Devils .750 (6-2))

So the trends to look for as a result of the coaching changes will hopefully show the Flames dramatically improve in goals against in just about every situation (Even strength, Power Play, Penalty Kill). I would expect us to be more disciplined and taking less penalties. Team Save % should go up which would mean that our goaltenders are better supported and about the only down side is that we should see less goals for our team.

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While I agree that AV has more coaching experience and the Canucks are used to AVs system and that those factors will give the Canucks the advantage early on in the season, I do believe that Brent Sutter has a higher potential and brings exactly what is needed by the Flames.

The Flames are packing on a huge defensive effort. Just going from comments from last season to this season you can draw up a feeling for how these changes will play out:

Leaving the team:

1) Keenan - bad Xs and Os coach, didn't have any kind of system to mold the team around

2) Preston - bad special teams coach, came up with 1 power play last season and kept using it after other teams figured out how to shut it down

3) Aucion - pretty good defenseman but had to be carried defensively by Regehr to be effective.

4) Vandermeer - tough and steady defender but slow

5) Bertuzzi - defensive liability and turn over machine (I don't entirely agree but that is a common sentiment about Bert)

6) Cammalleri - amazing scorer, not amazing in our own zone.

7) Lombardo - not a good scorer but a very solid PK / defensive center with a lot of speed.

8) Roy - bad enforcer, okay 4th line player

Replacing the above:

1) Brent Sutter - solid system coach that runs a defensive responsible team

2) Lowry & McGill - rookie NHL assistant coaches who are good at teaching and engaging their players. Lowry = upgrade on Preston. McGill is probably equivalent to Playfair.

3) Bouwmeester - massive upgrade on Aucoin and frees up Regehr to partner with someone more effective. Very effective at moving the puck & playing a transitional game.

4) Pardy - He was already with us last season but now he effective takes over Vandermeer's spot. Not really an upgrade, yet.

5) Moss -> Sjostrom - Moss takes over Bertuzzi's spot and Sjostrom takes over Moss' spot. Overall a huge defensive upgrade to the forwards.

6) Jokinen - Full season of Jokinen to replace a full season of Cammalleri. Much better in his own zone and in breaking out than Cammalleri.

7) Sjostrom & Dawes - effectively replace Lombardi on the PK and in checking line roles, probably replace Lombardi's point production as well

8) McGratton - top 5 enforcer, bad player

When you factor in the player changes as well as the coaching changes, I think the Flames have their ducks all lined up in the same direction. Overall I think we upgraded talent wise but our biggest upgrades seem to be in our addition by subtraction. We eliminated the majority of our defensive liabilities (Aucoin, Vandermeer, Bertuzzi and to a degree Cammalleri). The people we replaced them with may be as good or slightly less talented but are hugely more effective defensively. The predictions is that we will have slightly less scoring production but I think that if our coaching factors in with a very strong transitional game then we will be able to generate a lot of scoring chances from fast transitions and breakouts.

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All emotional attachment/undeserved hatred aside, would Calgary fans trade Jarome Iginla for both the Sedins?

I wouldn't... Often Iginla has more impact than both of the Sedin's combined. Like in the Sedins vs. Tanguay+Iginla thread from a couple years ago, Iginla was carrying the entire bet by himself.

The only reason to go through with that trade is to get younger but I really don't think that is an issue we need to worry about with Iginla for 5 more years.

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Well, in terms of impact, the Sedins certainly won the head to head last season.

Daniel: 3 goals, 5 assists

Henrik: 2 goals, 4 assists

Jarome: 2 goals, 2 assists

The Sedins also had 15 game winning goals compared to Iginla's 4, and were a combined +46 compared to Iginla's -2. They are the two most undervalued forwards in the game today.

I agree that last year was a bad year for comparing Iginla by himself to the twins. The year before that though the twins combined for a whole 44 goals compared to Iginla's 50 and Iginla had the same number of GWG as the twins did combined. So really when it comes down to it, if I had to choose between the twins versus Iginla + XXXXX, where the unnamed player could put up 20-40 goals on his own, I feel that the Iginla pairing is better to have regardless of who he is with.

If Iginla has another off year I may change my mind but I guess it would depend on how Jokinen performs while playing with Iginla.

PS. I really hope Iginla bulks back up this summer.

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But it's about Iginla alone having more of an impact than both Sedins, not Iginla + random linemate. Because then we would say Sedins + 3rd linemate and then Iginla + 2nd line and so on and so on until we are comparing the whole teams.

I understand what you are saying Don but with the reality of the Salary Cap it makes sense to at least look at the comparison about 2 players versus 2 players instead of 2 players versus 1 player. It doesn't need to be taken past that point but it is a valid argument to make that with their new contracts the Sedins are a much larger salary cap hit. If that trade were to go down right now, the Flames would have to clear $5.2M in cap space, which just happens to be the exact amount that Jokinen is earning.

So while I do think that Iginla can be a bigger impact player by himself than the twins combined, it would require him to go back to his form of 2 seasons ago and hopefully forget about last season where he turned into more of a support character. As it is, I will be very interested to see how the Sedins vs. Iginla + Jokinen thread pans out (when it finally gets made) dance.gif

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Last yr's back-to-back records....

Flames:

Game 1: 6-7-1

Game 2: 3-10-1

Canucks:

Game 1: 5-5

Game 2: 4-5-1

Jeez, neither of those records are very good but the Flames were horrible in those "Game 2" situations. 3-10-1 = yuck.

Great overall analysis of the two team's travel schedules. I would guess that the Canucks are getting the better schedule with less overall travel because they have to accommodate for the Olympics and thus had more attention put into their schedule. I just don't see Bettman intentionally playing favorites for any Canadian team that doesn't start with 'Le' or end with 'diens'.

I think that this is going to be an interesting test for the coaching staff to build their training program and set up their off-days to work around these schedules. I wonder how much of an adjustment Brent will need after his time with the Devils and their relatively easy travel schedule. I will be really interested to see if our new defensively responsible system will take the burden off of the individual players and hopefully leave them more energy for those Game 2 nights.

Also, having Bouwmeester should really help take the burden off of big minute munchers like Phaneuf who looked obviously tired when trying to log 30 minutes in a game. I can only imagine how Phaneuf was performing in those Game 2s.

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Except our defences our pretty much even, with Vancouver's depth pushing them a little ahead.

You forget that your always overrated defence was terrible last year, lost Aucoin and Vandermeer, and improved a little by signing Bouwmeester. The Canucks on the other handsubtracted the slow and aging Ohlund from their top-10 defence last year, and added Ehrhoff, Schneider and Lukowich, two of which have Cup-winning experience compared to Jay who has never even be able to get Florida into the playoffs.

It's gonna be another slaughter come October 1.

Your assessment is all wrong. Just because you guys are paying $7.5M for your 5/6/7 Dmen doesn't mean that your D core is stronger. Top 4 defenders are called "Top 4" because they play the bigger chunk of ice time and are utilized in more of the impact situations in a game. Paying big money for your bottom 5-8 defenders makes about as much sense as paying big money for 4th line forwards and AHL players. As you can see in most of the discussions about Primeau, paying big money for 4th line players isn't a very popular move and Primeau is cheaper than all 8 of the Vancouver D men who are currently listed under contract.

Also, bragging about moving a slow and aging Ohlund to replace him with Schneider is a joke right? You didn't actually say that with a serious face did you? Because if so you need to get your facts straight about who is slow and aging.

Your knowledge of Bouwmeester sounds second hand at best. Especially after your Ohlund comment! I can't believe that you are bragging about going younger, faster, more skilled with your D core and then trying to downplaying Bouwmeester as an upgrade over Aucoin and Vandermeer. For the amount of ice time Bouwmeester can play and for the amount of skill he is rated as having he is realistically going to be a bigger impact by himself than Ehrhoff, Schneider and Lukowich would be combined just because of how strong Bouwmeester is in both ends of the ice and how often he will be used in high pressure situations.

Conclusion. Paying $23M evenly between your "top 8" defenders is not better than paying $23.6M for your top 8 defenders with your top 4 making significantly more and your bottom 4 making significantly less.

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[quote name='Hockey_Canada1 wrote:


Anything else? How about the rest of the defence?

Edler or Sarich?

Schneider or Giordano?

O'Brien or Pardy?

Lukowich of Stralman?

But you can't really compare player to player, because each team has a different philosphy on building a defensive core. Both of which are effective.

Sarich >~ Edler.

Edler puts up slightly more points, Sarich is better defensively. In the end I would say Sarich has the edge for being older and more developed, having more experience, being an NHL Ironman and a Stanley Cup champion.

Schneider = Giordano

Schneider is certainly a smarter player than Giordano and has way more offensive skill but that is what you get when you pay significantly more for a bottom pairing D man. In reverse, Giordano has less of a cap hit and is younger, faster, more physical and will be less of a liability in his own zone. Weighing the pros and cons of the two players I would call them a wash for a bottom pairing comparison.

O'Brien > Pardy

I really have no idea how to compare this. Pardy was our #7 guy last year and is being promoted to #6 but I would guess O'Brien has the advantage and is paid over twice as much.

Lukowich vs. Stralman

Lukowich is a career bottom pairing D man and from what I read Stralman is a young talented player who has the potential to develop into a top 4 defender and really only lacks strength to complete his game. Lukowich may be the more reliable #7 D man today who can hang out in the pressbox with the best of them but Stralman will be the better player to have on your roster.

Hockey_Canada1 wrote:

Defensively, they have a top 3 as good or better than anyone in the league. HOWEVER, defensive depth cannot be underrated. The grind of the season can wear on the big 3 playing a ton of minutes, and it showed a bit last season. Can Giordano or Pardy handle 20 minutes a night? I don't know. Sarich ain't no spring chicken, and he is going to have to start showing his age sooner or later. I saw more of it last year than I did in the past from him.

Sarich is aging? Really? If you put Sarich onto the Canuck's team he is actually right in the middle of the pack age wise and in the middle of what most hockey analysts would consider his "prime" years (28-34). Sarich is younger than Mitchel and very comparable in skill and ability. Considering most people thought Sarich was playing exceptionally I doubt you saw him showing anything other than that unless you were watching through some blue coloured glasses.

Hockey_Canada1']Defensively, we have essentially 5 top 4 defensemen. We don't have that legit #1 Norris candidate. But depth throughout the entire line-up instead. We don't have to depend on that one guy to be your !3 guy in every situation, but a ton of guys that can play roles and play them well. Our Powerplay should be vastly improved over last year, considering one of Schnieder, Salo, Ehrhoff, Edler or Bieksa won't even make the 2nd unit. There are 3 cannons from the point, as well as Schneider's experience and vision on the back end. I am excited to see the combinations we would see with the advantage.

I would say that Defensively the Canucks basically have 5 'second pairing defensemen' and no true top pairing caliber D on the team. Also, it is unrealistic to expect to keep that group as is since you are over the salary cap. One way or another your depth is going to have to be diminished.

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[quote name='Hockey_Canada1 wrote:


"Slighty" more points? 20 vs. 37 is almost double. Edler is a better skater, passer, has a rocket from the point, played 4 more minutes per game, and was by far our best defenceman in the playoffs (8 points in 10 games, played over 22 minutes per). Playing a lot of games and being on a winning team 5 years ago doesn't make you a better defenceman.

This one is laughable. The are both consdiered offensive defencemen so stats should be a good comparison here.One had 32 points in 67 games as well as 17 in 23 when traded to a playoff contender, immediately improving said team's PP drastically while playing almost 21 minutes per game. The other had 19 points in 58 games while just 16 minutes a game. And to use your arguemtn for Sarich, one has more experience, more developed and a stanley cup ring. tongue.gif

O'Brien > Pardy. Yes.

Stralman likely will be a better player, key word is "will be". Right now, Lukowich is more reliable in a bottom pairing role. Therefore he wins this matchup.

cinlow wrote:

Sarich is aging? Really? If you put Sarich onto the Canuck's team he is

actually right in the middle of the pack age wise and in the middle of

what most hockey analysts would consider his "prime" years (28-34).

Sarich is younger than Mitchel and very comparable in skill and

ability. Considering most people thought Sarich was playing

exceptionally I doubt you saw him showing anything other than that

unless you were watching through some blue coloured glasses.

Wow, I though he was older than he is. But be that as it may, I saw something out of his last season that I hadn't seen before. A lingering injury maybe? Mitchell is twice the shutdown defenceman Sarich is and ever will be.

Sarich had a broken foot. Some people might label that a "lingering injury" but most people would call it a broken bone in the foot that Sarich played through. Honestly, it really doesn't sound like you know anything about Sarich at all so your assessment of him can't be very accurate.

Schnieder vs. Giordano.

Leave it to a nucklehead to take two defensemen and try to rate them purely on offensive production. Giordano is a puck moving defenseman but I wouldn't call him purely offensive. He still has the ability to play effectively in his own zone and play 5on5 hockey.

Schneider is described as no longer being very effective defensively and at the age of 40 he would be mainly deployed as a power play specialist. For that reason alone I would rate these guys as a wash especially when you consider the difference in how much they are paid. Even without bonuses Schneider takes up double the cap hit that Giordano does.

Hockey_Canada1 wrote:

cinlow']

I would say that Defensively the Canucks basically have 5 'second

pairing defensemen' and no true top pairing caliber D on the team.

Also, it is unrealistic to expect to keep that group as is since you

are over the salary cap. One way or another your depth is going to have

to be diminished.

By one. Take out any one defenceman out of the Canucks core right now, and it the depth advantage still stands.

I'm actually blown away that anyone is coming to the Flames forum to brag about defensive depth and claim to have better defensive depth than the Flames. Do you guys really just have no clue what has been going on around here over the last few years? If you take away one of the Canuck's $3M defensemen then the comparison changes pretty dramatically:

Bouwmeester - Phaneuf

Regehr - Sarich

Giordano - Pardy

Kronwall - Stralman

Pelech - Negrin

Palin - Aulie

Brodie - Seabrook

Erixzon

vs.

Mitchell - Bieksa

Edler - Salo

Ehrhoff - Schneider

Lukowich - O'Brien

Nycholat - Baumgartner

Rome - ??

I admit that I am pretty lacking in my knowledge of the Canucks depth chart but really the Flames are not just stacked in our top 4, our depth goes all the way down to our D men on the Heat. I would be just as comfortable calling up Pelech or Negrin to play as I would be to have Kronwall on the ice and both Pelech and Negrin are potential top 4 defenders. The silly thing though is, bragging about who has the better 5/6/7th D man when the Flames clearly have a stronger top 4 who will be logging the majority of the ice time.

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