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Discussion & Debate Thread: Flames and Canucks

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What do you expect to see outta Iggy/Ollie considering - The New Sutter Defensive System, chemistry, linemates, other factors, etc.

Did they even have chemistry last yr?

thoughts?

Sutter's system with the Devils was very effective offensively as well as defensively. We saw that with a number of their players having huge offensive years. If Pairse can have a 45g, 49a, 94p season under this system I see no reason why Iginla cannot do the same, especially since Iginla has shown the ability to produce on a defensively minding Flames team.

One of the key features of the system is meant to be puck control and fast transitions. If Sutter can get fast transitional hockey out of a largely unknown defensive group in the Devils I can only imagine he will have vastly greater results using guys like Bouwmeester, Phaneuf, Regehr and Sarich. I would also expect that Giordano, Pardy and Stralman could all find success as well as this system is not built on individual skill.

Our strength on D + Sutter's system should do more than just prevent goals against us and shut down other team's scoring. It should also turn into fast break outs of our zone, successful break ins to our opponent's zone and setting up plays that can result in goals.

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I think the first step is in guessing how Bouwmeester will compare against himself.

Factors:

- The Flames are a more talented team and can score more goals. Last year the Panthers were #17 in Goals For and #24 on the Power Play. The Flames were #8 in scoring and #21 on the Power Play.

- Another major factor is how effective the Flames power play will be under the new coaching staff. I think it is pretty safe to assume that the Flames power play is going to be better than it has been over the past few years (40+ PP scoreless streak). If we have a well run power play that the team actually practices then one would have to guess that Bouwmeester is going to be given a lot of chances to earn points.

- Phaneuf is a better partner than anyone Bouwmeester was paired up with on the Panther's roster and that factor alone will likely allow Bouwmeester to improve upon himself offensively.

- My conclusion is that Bouwmeester is set to have a "break out" year offensively simply because of his new situation.

On the other hand, Bieksa could be looking at reduced power play time with Schneider on the team. I don't know if Canucks fans would agree but I can see Salo-Schneider being the #1 PP unit, at least while those guys are healthy. Even if Bieksa doesn't see reduced PP time I do not believe there is any changes on the Canucks that will really give him a chance to improve on last year's stats.

So if Bieksa is likely to repeat his 40 point season then I think Bouwmeester is set up to have the better offensive season between the two of them.

I also do not agree that Bieksa was the more efficient producer. When you look at the TOI stats for these two guys you are not factoring in the fact that Bouwmeester managed to put up 42 points while also being his team's #1 shut down defender and penalty killer. Those are jobs that Mitchell primarily covers on the Canuck's roster and Bieksa would be #4 on the depth chart for defensive roles. When you consider that Bouwmeester was putting up these kinds of numbers while being his team's #1 shutdown defender I think that says something in regards to being a more efficient producer. If that isn't enough of a statement though then I would look at Shooting Percentage. Bouwmeester has an 8.2% versus Bieksa's 7.2%.

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Burrows is such an enigma that it's hard to make comparisons. I really have no idea what to expect next year.

I do like Bourque, but expecting him to not only meet, but surpass last year's pace seems a bit much to me. Maybe if he can stay healthy, and stay on the top line.

Bourque was one the second line for the majority of last season so I don't see why he would need to be on the top line to repeat last year's production. Mainly we just need to see him stay healthy and I can see him having a huge year under B.Sutter. Bourque strikes me as a prototype Sutter player for a defensively responsible, puck position & fast transition style game.

I also would expect Glencross, Moss and Boyd to all do better under Sutter & Co. than they did under Keenan.

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I am not sure what you guys are expecting out of Sutter's "system", but so far I have read that it will improve the defensive game, offensive game and transition game. Now maybe I am being skeptikal, but if there was such a system that excelled in all facets of the game, would it not be used by every team in the league by now? I mean, you have to sacrifice one of those areas in order to excel in another, no?

Well, I guess first you would have to establish what system the Flames had before offensively, defensively, transitionally and in special teams. Some people would say the Flames had hardly any system at all last year so Sutter having any system at all should be an upgrade.

This may not translate directly to more Goals For for the Flames, we were already #8 last year in that stat but I would expect that the goals we get would be more consistent and have a bigger impact in winning games since we should be preventing the other team from scoring. Basically that means I would rather win games 3-1 than lose games 6-7. I would also like to never see an extended scoreless streak on the power play.

Also, I think some people would suggest that the Red Wings deploy a system that excels in all aspects of the game...

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That's because personnel dictates what system your team implores.  The Red Wings are deep and have players that excel in multiple facets of the game... not exactly typical throughout the league. 

Don's point stands... This sutter system is taking on a magical entity. Sutter's system will apparently rectify all that was wrong with the flames game last season.
For the record, i do expect the Flames to improve defensively and on the forecheck.  But i'm hearing all sorts of other great stuff about this system...

Sutter's system will "fill in the blank"... it's been said/argued here.  
Sutter's system will improve the defense
Sutter's system will get Phaneuf back on track
Sutter's system will improve our transition game
Sutter's system will improve the PP
Sutter's system will promote puck possession
Sutter's system will increase the forecheck
Sutter's system will help the kids flourish
Sutter's system will make us very difficult to play against

What is the weakness with this system?
Why didn't it help NJ get out of the 1st round?

You know what Sutter's system is going to be... playing the cards he's been dealt and trying to maximize their performance better than Keenan did.
If you got a lot of speed and skill and great outlet passers - puck possession, transition game
If you got limited skill, but some speed - you dump and chase.
If you got a lot of speed - you send two forcheckers in
If you got problems finishing 5-on-5 - you trap
If your PP has skill on it - you set plays up down low
If your PP has no skill on it, but you got a QB - you set up the hammer from the point and rebound

What i saw out NJ last yr was an aggressive 2 man forecheck forcing teams to accommodate. when they did, it was basic looking hockey after that...  They had spurts of aggression where they would send 2 in every once in awhile.... but then it was shot blockers blocked shots, puck movers moved the puck, playmakers made plays, the better shooters shot.
He can come in and hope for any particular style, but during camp, his personnel will determine how the system unfolds.

What it looks like right now... Great Defense. great goalie. 4 actual top 6 players. Quick forwards.  This team is built to be defensive. A style Keenan wouldn't be ideal for.

I think you are mixing up the things "Sutter's system" can cover with other factors people are excited about this season. Yes, I expect Sutter's system to improve the defense as that was a clearly stated objective. I do not know if this system will improve the power play but I certainly believe that Lowry and McGill will be better coaches than Preston ever was in that regard and thus our PP should be able to be more effective. Realistically with our PP ranked 21st last year it is a fair statement to expect to improve on that poor ranking.

I do expect Sutter's system to be better than Keenan's was in other facets such as puck possession, transition game and forechecking. The Flames have talented players but last year it did not seem like they had plan as to how to deploy that talent to do all the basics in the game. Our breakout was weak and our break in was worse. In my mind I do not think seeing our team become very good at the "basics" as a bad thing since those are the things that you build wins from.

I also do not expect Sutter's system to necessarily help the kids flourish but I do think that a young coaching staff where most of the coaches have a lot of experience in the AHL and WHL will allow them to be very effective in using our young players instead of just burying them in the 4th line.

If all of these other things come together and we have a more defensively responsible team with a solid PP unit, a good break in, strong break out, fast transitional game, etc. Saying "we will be difficult to play against" is a pretty obvious statement.

As for past results, I think Sutter had a great coaching year last year. The Devil's crash and burn with 90 seconds left in game 7 was very unfortunate but I would not summarize his coaching from last season on that small of a sample. Keep in mind that Sutter spent a significant part of the season coaching a Devils team that had lost Brodeur and they did not implode the same way that the Canucks did when Luongo went down.

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Maybe I am just missing something here, but what is with Luongo being spelled with a "7"?
People started doing it after his bad game 6 against Chicago where he allowed 7 goals.

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Should we start calling Kipper "Ki6666off"?

one for each time he allowed 6 goals in a game last season.

Hey, I'm just telling you where it came from...

But to answer your question, I don't think it'll stick. You can start using it if you want, but 7uongo is just a little more aesthetically pleasing, given the "7" looks like an upside-down "L" and all... tongue.gifwink.gif

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[quote name='The_Don wrote:


Hiphopopotamus wrote:

The_Don']Regarding tonights canuck game: I thought Saturday was poorly officiated game. This was the exact opposite. Two guys bump, one falls. Penalty. Guys steps on stick, falls. Penalty. Burrows loses balance. Penalty for diving. Canucks finally get a break with a PP. two straight Canucks penalties.

Horse Manure.

Considering all the PP's the Canucks have gotten when Burrows actually dived, I don't really see the problem.
If he actually dove. Whatever. I get the call. But he didn't. He had his legs out wide and reached out too far. it wasn't a penalty, but he wasn't trying to draw anything, he just lost his balance.

Burrows just called out the refs after the game. Good. He could easily get fined for the comments and I don't think he cares. It needed to be said.

Reputation maybe? I don't pay a lot of attention to Burrows when he isn't playing us or scoring out his you-know-what, so I don't know how often he actually gets called for diving, but I do know that he does try to over-sell penalties and trips on the occasion (and more than a few times against us).

My guess is that the refs gave him the Bertuzzi treatment on that penalty...

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Fair enough. It is BS though and you're right - if it's a penalty, call it and if it's not, don't. Refs really shouldn't let their personal biases creep into the way they call games, but they do.

And I remember probably a dozen penalties called against Bertuzzi last year that were just on reputation alone, so we know how you feel on that one.

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[quote name='The_Don wrote:


Neufy_3 wrote:

The_Don']

Well I could say "I bet you he won't!" but there is no accountability there.

I
f he [Phaneuf] wins the Norris this year, my signature will be of your choosingfrom the Awards night right to the start of the next regular season.


If he does not, than your signature will be of my choosing from Awards Night to the start of the next regular season.


deal?

Sure, deal.

And I know there's noaccountability just saying he won't but it's kinda funny that you'rethe only one who does sig bets with others, lol

Just thought I'd remind Neufy of our little bet here.

Yep, I know I've lost already... no real biggie. That's what I get for having faith, apparently...

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[quote name='The_Don wrote:


Neufy_3 wrote:

The_Don']

Just thought I'd remind Neufy of our little bet here.

Yep, I know I've lost already... no real biggie. That's what I get for having faith, apparently...

If I said at the start of the year that Henirk had a better chance of winner the Art Ross AND Hart than Phaneuf winning the Norris, even I woulda chuckled. But here we are...

Yeah, the world of hockey is a funny (and cruel tongue.gif) place sometimes...

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I wonder if the fact the flames have the least number of goalie interference calls on the season (1) is reflective of their net presence. flames fan opinion?

Vancouver has 6 - 7th most. Not necessarily a good thing... but acceptable if a side product driving the net, screening, pouncing on loose pucks and general combat with D.

Vancouver 3rd in PIM/gm, Cal is 6th

Calagry leads the league in fighting majors (Van 7th)

Vancouver leads in hooking (Cal 5th)

Vancouver leads in misconducts (Cal 18th)

Calgary 4th in boarding calls (Van 15th)

Vancouver 3rd least tripping, Cal 7th most

Both teams tied for 5th with 5 holding the stick calls.

And on a related note:

Calgary PK% 83.1 9th

Vancouver PK% 82.3 12th

It very well could be. I do feel a lot of the time that we play way too much of a perimeter game, and we don't get dirty enough to score goals. There are a lot of times where I wish our guys would just shoot and go hard for the rebounds but we don't do that nearly enough. I especially wish we would start doing it more this year when we've had trouble scoring goals.

We haven't really gone for the garbage goals a whole lot ever since Darryl left the bench, come to think of it. I guess it's acceptable with the talent we had on the team the past few years, but this year we really need to start grinding it out for our goals... at least until we get our offense going again.

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[quote name='TheAce wrote:


SWiTCHRiDE']alright bean-town!!!  2-0 against the canucks.

its funny they said that the canucks are getting a "wake up call" because the game is early.  I remember a little while ago some announcer said that the canucks try to weasel into getting the later games because roberto is a princess with his warmup routine.

vancouver on the road as i prediceted.

1) sedins are invinsible CHECK

2) luongo is nothing special CHECK

3) canuck fans are calling a two game losses in a row a slump CHECK

4) flames fans get to grind the salt into the wound hard CHECK CHECK

I think you are gonna need to uncheck # 2 and # 4 there bud....... 

Ah, the classic case of premature gloating coming back to bite you...

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How did I know that the Canucks would lose in overtime, giving us the worst possible result?

How rude! I mean, for the amount of favors we've done for your team over the last couple of seasons you sure don't feel like repaying us at all. Jerks. tongue.gifwink.gif

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[quote name='The_Don wrote:


DL44']He will.

I'm convinced that there was no way the ownership would of approved the long term signings if they were at all wavering on how they felt about Sutter's performance.

Any competent management group plays out the what if scenarios and should have action plans in place....  

They definitely are buying what Sutter is selling em.... for now.

This is how I saw it at the time of the Phaneuf and Jokinen trades. Ownership either directly or indirectly let Sutter know he was on the hot seat. That he had to make some changes and turn the team around before the end of the season. Feeling this pressure Sutter made a couple drastic changes including trading away their supposed franchise defenceman who was Sutter's pick and project. That stank bad of desperation. I honestly think Sutter could have gotten a much better deal than he got from Toronto. I think it would have been better for the Flames if he had traded Phaneuf for another potential franchise player (probably forward) that may be struggling elsewhere. Like the Latendresse/Pouliot deal on a bigger scale. Maybe for a player like Nathan Horton. Now I am getting a little sidetracked but my point is that Sutter pulled a couple desperation moves to try to save his job, and they backfired. I would be surprised if he was still the GM by draft time

Yes, but Sutter is still being allowed to work out extensions for our players. Apparently an extension for Ian White is almost done, and he was allowed to extend both Bourque and Stajan after his "blockbuster" trades in early February. If the ownership was seriously considering firing Sutter right now, then why would they approve a bunch of contract extensions by him? I can understand them approving the Bourque and Stajan extensions, given how much time was left in the season at those points and how we had yet to see fully what our new roster was capable of... but if they are seriously considering letter Darryl go at this point, you'd have to think they wouldn't be letting him discuss any more contract extensions. Ownership would've put a kibosh on Sutter by now if that's the direction they're leaning.

Honestly, for the good or for the bad, I think we've got one more year of Darryl as our GM.

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[quote name='The_Don wrote:


Flame111 wrote:

DL44']

So... many... brain... farts....!

You couldnt really blame Luongo too much on most of the goals except the last one.

lots of deflections, screens, and nice goals. 

1 logical reason  is Raycroft was gonna play tomorrow... might as well keep him fresh.

Personally think the main reason he stayed in was because of the number of times AV has pulled in the last month (4times i think).  I don't think he or Luongo wanted #5...  logic said take him out after the 5th goal or 2nd period... but they decided to suck it up...  probably didn't expect a 3 goal 3rd.

on a plus side - That Raymond-Sedin-Kesler line ended up looking pretty good after Burrows went down.  at least we know a good mix if Danny misses any more.

Luon8o - DL44 seriously has the homer glasses on.

Yeah, how homeristic of DL to blame the entire team rather than just Luongo. The entire stank it up last night. No defensive coverage, I don't think we touched the puck in the offensive zone in the first period.

Ro8erto 7uongo. That's funny coming from Cal9ary.

That's awesome. For that you win the internet.

lens6242702_1249236370certificate_sealbigblue.jpg

Don't get too big-headed now, though tongue.gif

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Yeah, it'll take more than this to put me down wink.gif.

Given how frustrating this season has been, I'm just glad it's (almost) over to be honest. Now we can focus on trying to fix some of the things that are wrong with this team, and hopefully we can come back and be a contender again for the division next year. I'm not really that disappointed considering the Flames have been mediocre or worse since December, but I am definitely not liking where the team is at this point in time. I hope we can somehow pawn some of our crap off on some other teams, and I really wish we had our 1st (and 2nd) rounder this year. Not having that pick is killing me right now, lol.

Sutter's dug himself a pretty big hole this year, and whether he gets to fix his mess or not remains to be seen. If he gets his chance to fix it all, which I think he probably will, it'll be a good litmus test to see how good of a GM he still is and how much he's learned from his failings.

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I think any Canuck fan claiming that their D is better than the Flames overall is delusional at best. Quit the player by player comparisons, and even the depth comparisons, they mean little. Defense comes down to pairings and minutes (not just how many, but who they match up against). To cut to the chase, except for mismanagement or lack of chemistry, the Flames should have the better D in the season. Operative word being "should" as being good on paper is something I find the Flames are very good at, while meeting expectations is a whole other ball game. 

In my opinion, (and as mid-summer opinions go, I could be entirely wrong), the Flames have a better D, however, any gap between the Canucks D and the Flames D is made up for in the Canuck offense. Notice how I did not mention goaltending, as defensive play and goaltending go hand in hand, there are few goalies that would not flourish under a defense-first game, and don't kid yourself with that Luongo vs Kipper bull, it really comes down to [Luongo + Nucks D] vs [Kipper + Flames D] (which I will give to the Flames). I would say that because one cannot quantify any gap between the offenses or defenses of the two teams until they play a few games, I'll say the two teams are even at this point, provided the Flames can meet expectations on their defense-first game, and show the grit they have lacked since the Daryl Sutter days. If they can show the heart that I know is capable of their personnel, they can beat the Canucks (who have a great amount of heart and grit, but lack pure goal-scoring talent).

In case it's not clear, I am a die hard Canucks fan. I've just trolled here for a while without posting due to the amount of useless discussion on CDC. Apparently 185 pages of Sergei Shirokov = Bure is a good read for some people. 

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Forsomeone like Bouwmeester who is earning almost 7 million (possibly more) peryear, and he hasn't even made the playoffs, that's being severely overpaid.

Please tell me you're joking.  On a Florida team that was/is going nowhere fast, Bouwmeester was the only bright spot.  I can't believe you would try to use that as an argument.  You've been around here long enough for me to know your smarter than that.

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Did you notice what I was replying to?

I've said many times I like Bouwmeester, even at 6.6 million. On the other hand, I don't understand why it is so hard for Flames fans to admit the Canucks got better by acquiring Christian Ehrhoff, Mathieu Schneider and Brad Lukowich for close to nothing... so far.

I don't recall myself saying that Vancouver didn't improve their defense because I believe they did and it was a great trade (economically).  What most Flames supporters, myself included, are having trouble with is that Canuck supporters are saying that with this trade the Canucks have a comparable D to that of the Flames.  If anybody has to admit anything its Canuck fans for being wrong.

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(Since people are still bugging me about the Bouwmeester/Luongo comparison, which was a joke, I'll try to make another joke.)

Here is my impersonation of a Flame fan:

Before Sutter does something:

It's not okay. We were terrible last season, and haven't made any major changes. We will easily lose in the first round, like we do every year.

After Sutter does something:

ZOMG! Sutter is A gawd!!11!! We are the best team in the league. Our defense the best0rz! Bouwmeester and Phaneuf are going to tear you apart!!11! Oh yeah, Luongo is an overpaid hack! Kipper is better!!!!!!

Hence, that is why I do not argue with them. Their outlook on life is skewed. Always has been, and always will be. That said, the Bouwmeester signing easily made them better, and I'll be pissed off if they end up not tampering with what is already a great roster.

I wouldn't be quitting your day job to become a regular on the Just For Laughs circuit if I were you.

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I'm going to make an impersonation on all of you, just for the sake of it:

'Nucks Troll: OMG!!!111 SCHNEIDER AND EHRHOFF, %%%# YEAH!

'Flames Fan: Well, I guess thats good.

Not so smart Flames Fan: LOLOLOLOLOLOLOL NUCKS SUCK, PLAN DUH PA-RADE.

Oilers Troll: I want a parade...

'Nucks Troll: OMG!1111 HOW CULD U SAY DAT? I HATE YOU; SUTTER SUCKS! KIPPER SUCKS! JBO SUCKS! *BLAH BLAH BLAH*

Not so smart Flames Fan: OMG!!!!11 R U SRS? LIKE, RELLY SRS? OMG GILLS SUCKS! LU SUCKS! IGGY ROCKS!! * blah blah blah*

Seriously, guys. Cut it the %%%# out.

Lets just all admit it. Our defense kicks theirs in the %+%, and as far as I'm concerned, their offense has a slight edge over ours. Luongo and Kipper I still have to see during the season.

But, seriously. Cut it out, you all are started to sound really bad.

For someone being a Tyrant of Positivity that was pretty negative there Dx.  I feel like I just got yelled at by my Dad, and that hasn't happened in over 20 years.mellow.gif

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Well, I'm mostly positive about the Flames. But hell, we have to keep our integrity on this forum, and theres just a lot of stupid arguements and just mindless crap going on. Arguement is good, but seriously guys, cut the stupidity out. I thought we were the smart ones. And Yukon, you might be the Smart Flames Fan xD.

  

Well, thank you if I am.  I just thought it was funny because after I read your post I had the sick, empty feeling you get after being admonished by a parent.roll.gif

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yeah the numbers say Bourque doesn't deserve to be in the conversation for Selke. i win.

Please explain. Some of those numbers suggest that neither does Datsyuk.

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