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Discussion & Debate Thread: Flames and Canucks

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Because of how the players were used... the finalists were all used as the primary forces against the opposition's top offensive threats..

Because Bourque was used 3-5 minutes less per game..... suggesting he wasn't a primary defensive force.... he wasn't being used to matchup versus the top lines like the other players.

Huh? By that logic, guys like Ovechkin and Kovalchuk should have garnered consideration because they were used even more than the 3 finalists. Bourque was not a top line player. Richards and Datsyuk were, hence their TOI. Kesler was a second line player, but since Vancouver's top line is not in the same category as the top tier number 1 lines around the league, his line got more balanced ice time.

The most obvious answer - the defensive responsibilities of a center by far trump what the responsibilities of a winger is. Not even an argument. Any hockey player can enlighten you on that fact... ask around... or ask me.

Yes, I get this. Doesn't change the fact that a healthy Bourque would have had a very good shot a getting a nomination.

Because Datsuyk was 2nd in Tkw and Richards 3rd and Kesler 8th.

So what? Why wasn't the guy who was first in take-aways nominated, or one of the other five guys who were ahead of Kesler? Take-aways are hardly a deciding factor. Neither are blocked shots, as the only shots that Datsyuk blocked were the ones that he couldn't get out of the way of fast enough. Can't really argue about face-offs either as Richards is hardly spectacular on the dot.

Defensive zone faceoffs - win a faceoff-> control the play, stifle the attack against......

Thanks. I have watched hockey before, I don't need your condescending step-by-step guide.

Those would be the big ones that pop out....

Umm... no. As anyone will realize, the "big ones" that pop out are goals, total points, and +/- among those who are generally considered to be two-way forwards. That's the only reason Datysuk won it. To think that he is the best defensive forward in the league is ridiculous. What he is, is the player best able to balance his offense with his defensive game. That is why he won and that is why, had Bourque played all 82 games, he likely would have gotten a nomination.

We can continue this debate if you like, but it seems that you are more content to just proclaim yourself the winner without actually presenting anything of actual merit. Maybe that's how you are taught to argue in Vancouver, simply wave your hands and then shout "I win!", but that seems like something that you and your "buddy" can do with one another off-line.

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It's too early to pick one over the other at this point, but if I had to, I would choose Hodgson. Personally, I think that both will become great NHLers in the not too distant future and both clubs should consider themselves lucky to have either one of these guys, but going by the stats, I'll give the edge to Cody (so far).

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He beat out Tavares. What an incredible year: he led Team Canada to a Gold medal; won the OHL all-star game with a hat-trick and four points (Tavares had one assist); led his OHL team to the Final; then helped lead the Moose to the Calder Cup even though he was probably feeling wear on his body and mind... and in all of this putting up beyond impressive point totals and demonstrating all the character that is required to win at the next level. He's special and we love him.

Henrik Sedin (28 years old)

Ryan Kesler (24 years old)

Cody Hodgson (19 years old)

Jordan Schroeder :wub: (18 years old)

Kyle Wellwood (26 years old)

Patrick White (20 years old)

Gotta love our future centre depth.

But I'm sure Backlund would have had a similar year had he gotten his lazy butt over sooner.

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I think Vigneault made some bad decisions - or at least let some bad decisions be made by his players - in the Chicago series. That said, he is pretty awesome and I rarely find any problem with his game-plans, media comments or the team atmosphere.

I do think coaching is overrated though, just from my own experience playing sports. It's still a crucial part of the game, but when I see people saying that Pat Quinn is going to completely transform how the Oilers play, or how Brent Sutter will instantly turn around certain lacking facets of Calgary's game last year... it just irritates me. At the end of the day, it comes down to the players. At least wait until a month or so into the season before making those claims. Especially when your first game is against the Vancouver Canucks tongue.gif

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That Pittsburgh example is quite easy to find with the amount of coach turnover in today's NHL. Dan Bylsma did an admirable job, but I think the reason Pittsburgh turned it around was the coaching change was a "wake the **** up moment" for them. You look at the talent on that team and there's no way they should have been where they were. Plus they just weren't buying into Therrien's system anymore. But don't forget... Therrien got them to a Cup Final as well.

I don't think People's saying Darryl Sutter "took a bunch of nobodies" to almost winning the Cup is accurate or great when evaluating the importance of coaching. I think it's a good point and true, but it was just a perfect fit there with the personnel Calgary had for that run, not Sutter bringing in genius techniques to raise the levels of all the players.

People try to say this coach is better than that coach or that coach is better than this coach, which just isn't true in my honest opinion. It's all about the coach fitting with the team dynamic, and that really can't be judged until you're far enough into the season.

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Well, in terms of impact, the Sedins certainly won the head to head last season.

Daniel: 3 goals, 5 assists

Henrik: 2 goals, 4 assists

Jarome: 2 goals, 2 assists

The Sedins also had 15 game winning goals compared to Iginla's 4, and were a combined +46 compared to Iginla's -2. They are the two most undervalued forwards in the game today.

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People are seriously underrating the Canuck defence, and they know it... I hope.

This group was one of the best last year, and they replaced Ohlund with Ehrhoff and Schneider... which I think is a serious upgrade in all terms.

Salo-Mitchell

Edler-Ehrhoff

Bieksa-O'Brien

Schneider

Looks yummy to me. Great offence, great defence, great goaltending = great team.

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Oops, double post! I'll just combat another Flame fan.

1. An inconsistent defensemen who is way over-payed (O'Brien),

2. Another inconsistent defensemen who plays poorly in his own end (Ehrhoff, who was -12 last season)

3. Two cripples who are bound to get injured (Schneider and Salo)

4. A bunch of pylons (Rome and Nycholat)

5. Another player who *gasp* is a turnover machine (Bieksa, who was -4 last season)

6. An overrated shutdown defenseman (Mitchell, who according to Canucks fans should be on Team Canada)

7. And mabye two proven NHL defensemen (Lukowich and Edler)..... but even that's a stretch

1. O'Brien is a very underrated defenceman with serious top four potential, and at 1.6 is a deal for a great bottom pairing guy.

2. Ehrhoff is inconsistent, but also has two years to work on that. To say he's poor defensively is a stretch though. Here's a guy who got the most minutes for the Sharks during the playoffs, significantly ahead of Boyle, Blake and Vlasic, when stopping goals was far from their problem (offence).

3. Salo was our best all-around defenceman last year. Schneider had 17 points in 23 games last year with Montreal. I think both are valuable.

4. Both Manitoba fodder now.

5. I think you guys experienced enough Bieksa last year. Guy who brings all of toughness, leadership and offensive ability at a cheap price.

6. Mitchell was a +30 last year, and he routinely went out against the top offensive lines of each team. He also had a very good offensive year, statistically that is.

7. Haha, Edler isn't a proven NHL defenceman? 8 points in 10 games during the playoffs, plus he's 23 years old. Lukowich is also for sure an NHL defenceman.

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Mitchell's name comes up all the time when people are talking about the best shutdown defenceman in the game. He also isn't scared of points.

Stop the tack-tack comparisons. They're stupidly biased, and most of you are leaving out Salo anyway. Look at both defences as a whole.

Bouwmeester-Phaneuf

Regehr-Sarich

Giordano-Pardy

Pelech-Stralman

Salo-Mitchell

Ehrhoff-Edler

Bieksa-O'Brien

Schneider-Lukowich

Obviously top end talent is in favour of the Flames, but depth is in favour of the Canucks. Both very strong d-corps, and both teams should be very happy.

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Ugh, this thread has become just a whole bunch of stupid. The Ehrhoff trade really struck a nerve with some of you obviously.

Mitchell was a +30 last season, and he played against the other team's top line night in and night out. But I guess is only relevant when we're talking about Ehrhoff's first minus season of his career. He is widely viewed around the league as one of its premiere shutdown defencemen - get your head out of the sand.

And I can't believe the above poster just said "who cares?" to depth. After your last season? And if anyone wants to argue Giordano, Pardy, Pelech and Stralman are better than Bieksa, O'Brien, Schneider and Lukowich... you're absolutely delusional.

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I don't want any of our players playing in the Olympics. Just another injury concern; I'd much rather have them get the two weeks off, especially during our epic road swing. For the record though, the Canucks will very likely be sending the most players to the Olympics of all the Northwest teams.

Ehrhoff was a -12 for the record - his first minus season. Maybe that came from playing on the Sharks' third pairing. However, he was without a doubt their best defenceman during the playoffs, garnering about 25 minutes per night. People are severely underrating his defensive game based on one bad year of .

We are never going to match picking up Bouwmeester. So why are you trying to give off the impression we are? But if you really want to compare: Ehrhoff is cheaper. That's one thing. By about half. I think he's faster too, but I've never seen them play each other. He's also better on the PP I think. Other than that, Bouwmeester can take the rest and deservedly so.

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No sane Canuck fan wants to compare Ehrhoff to Bouwmeester!

The only reason the Bieksa - Bouwmeester comparisons started was because some Vancouver fans thought Calgary fans were treating Jay Bouwmeester like the second coming, and it was the most annoying argument they could come up with. Calgary fans have their own delusional Kipper = Luongo argument.

All I am saying is the Canucks lacked a PP quarterback, speed on the backend and youth on their d-corps. Ehrhoff answered all of those problems for us, and we got him for junk. By the end of yesterday, we became a much better team, and hopefully more likely to defend our division crown.

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[quote name='littlereddevil wrote:


Dusty_Foot_Philosopher']No sane Canuck fan wants to compare Ehrhoff to Bouwmeester!

The only reason the Bieksa - Bouwmeester comparisons started was because some Vancouver fans thought Calgary fans were treating Jay Bouwmeester like the second coming, and it was the most annoying argument they could come up with. Calgary fans have their own delusional
Kipper = Luongo argument.

All I am saying is the Canucks lacked a PP quarterback, speed on the backend and youth on their d-corps. Ehrhoff answered all of those problems for us, and we got him for junk. By the end of yesterday, we became a much better team, and hopefully more likely to defend our division crown.

I'm sorry but we have reason to argue the bolded statement you have written.

For someone like Luongo who is earning almost 7 million (possibly more) per year, and he hasn't won anything, that's being severely overpaid.

Forsomeone like Bouwmeester who is earning almost 7 million (possibly more) peryear, and he hasn't even made the playoffs, that's being severely overpaid.

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